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    Canonfire :: View topic - GH Afterlife
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    GH Afterlife
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    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:45 pm  
    GH Afterlife

    I know there are many sources on D&D's afterlife. Planescape deals with this in depth pertaining to Petitioners and so forth. What I'm curious about is how would one handle the GH afterlife in lieu of any other outside information save maybe the 83 Guide or the LGG? Nerull and Wee Jas are the principle death gods. Nerull is from Carceri (Tarterus?) and Wee Jas is Acheron, both are evil planes. Now clearly in a polytheistic setting not all souls-spirits go to the realm of the death god. But how is the dead divided? Good folk go to their patron god's home plane? What if your patron god is Iuz or Fharlanghn and their homeplane is the prime? What if your patron god is cryptic concerning life or death, like Boccob or Istus? Do you go into oblivion? If you worship a nature deity like Ehlonna or Obad Hai, are you reincarnated instantly? Now consider there are two primarily evil death gods. How do they divide souls (even just the wicked if anything) amongst themselves or does Nerull merely keep the dead in unlife while Wee Jas seeks to put them to rest? Then there would be the question of ressurection. Does a being raised from the dead recall anything of the afterlife? If it was sublime and good, do they miss it? So many people in real life with near death experiences are changed afterwards, in D&D its glazed over. And then there is those PCs who can even travel the planes. Been to the Seven Heavens already? How would that affect your outlook on life if you had literally been to heaven (or hell) and back?

    /Ramble
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:36 pm  

    The possibilities are numerous and some are more canon than others but it is a confused jumble. Ghostwalk makes things, REALLY, interesting.

    IMC, the gods do not reside on the planes. No one can go visit a god. IMC, the gods exist outside the planes.

    I handle the dead in one of three ways depending on the belief of the deceased:

    (1) If you are a true believer in a non-druidic god, your soul travels beyond the planes and joins with your deity, serving him, her or it for eternity in whatever way the god dictates.

    (2) If you are a true believer in a druidic god or are a believer in true druidism (no gods, just nature), you begin a cycle of reincarnation upon death.

    (3) If you did not worship a deity with any true faith, your lifeforce merges back with the universe. This is where all those Larve etc. come from. IMC, most people worship out of convenience not conviction.

    Resurrections are limited in the time they can be effective before the soul or spirit has moved on.

    IMC Cool
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    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:52 am  
    Re: GH Afterlife

    mortellan wrote:
    What if your patron god is Iuz or Fharlanghn and their homeplane is the prime?


    If you worship Iuz you serve him as an undead thrall, or you are given to the Old One's Abyssal allies as trade for demonic minions. If you worship Fharlanghn your shade wanders the oerth forever, exploring its reaches and occasionally acting to guide the living. If you worship Beory your soul spends some time in the heart of the world and is ultimately reincarnated.

    Evil souls who worship no other god in particular often go to Nerull - Nerull also tries to snatch all other souls, whether they're protected by other gods or not. He doesn't always succeed, but death for some is a race to the outer planes with the Reaper in hot pursuit. Even evil souls can escape, though they are "heavier" and fall more naturally into Nerull's orbit.

    Wee Jas offers protection from the Reaper, and for that reason many souls are dedicated to her, whether she was worshipped in life or not. Some Suel-influenced faiths believe she is the only god of the dead.

    Before the Rain of Colorless Fire, the Suel goddess of death was probably Beltar, who is even now associated with caves and to some extent undeath - Wee Jas took her primary portfolio from her after the Rain indelibly associated death and magic in the minds of the Suel survivors.

    Others may worship Celestian as the guide of souls across the Astral void, or Allitur as the stern judge of the Flan dead, or Istus as the weaver who determines the fate of every soul, or Telchur as the sorrowful bringer of the soul's winter.

    Quote:
    What if your patron god is cryptic concerning life or death, like Boccob or Istus?


    Istus sends you to the plane most appropriate to you. Boccob might put you to work in his library, or his worshippers might become one with the force of magic (or the Incarnum, as a new sourcebook has it).
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:51 pm  

    Originally, I think the various peoples had very different visions of what the afterlife was.

    The Flan believed in reincarnation, at least of part of the soul. Another part might be swallowed by Nerull, at least if certain rites are not undertaken to protect the soul. I'm sure it varied between various Flan tribes and kingdoms, but essentially we can consider everyone to have two souls, a heavy soul that properly merges with Beory after death, and a lighter soul that returns to new bodies in the metaphorical spring, if not stolen by the Reaper.

    The Oeridians saw the afterlife as being identical to the sky, as evidenced by the fact that their sky-god is also the god of the Astral Plane. Oeridian souls join the stars. Different tribes probably could identify the exact planets and constellations their ancestors were associated with.

    The Suel believed in a complex series of heavens and hells aligned to various degrees of Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil.

    The Baklunish saw things on at once a narrower and vaster scale - the multiverse as a complex loom, each thread representing various possible fates. For them, the destination of the soul is at once unknowable in advance and predetermined since the beginning of time.

    For the Olmans, things are much simpler - a single Underworld, Mictlan, governed by their god of the dead.

    All but the wickedest elves go to Arvanaith. The dwarves are protected by Dumathoin until taken by Moradin to be reforged, while the halflings are protected by Urogalan and the gnomes by Segojan Earthcaller.

    As the various peoples intermingled, new beliefs emerged and others became more complex. Every church and every metaphysician might understand things in a subtly different way, but it's hard for any of them to deny that many gods exist who are capable of shepherding souls into the afterworld; although each will claim to be more reliable in these matters than the others, I'm sure many will elect to have several different funerals presided over by several different faiths, so as to hedge their bets.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:53 pm  

    This thread made me realize that the D&D multiverse has a massive advantage over our own: Most of the inhabitants know exactly what happens to them when they die.

    Think for a minute about how that would affect your life. Pretty fundamental, isn't it? Wouldn't you behave a bit differently?

    No, what happens in my campaign (I just decided; this hasn't really come up yet) is unknown to the player characters (and to the players). Sure, everyone's got an opinion, but only the DM knows (and the gods, if the DM's in a good mood).

    Telas

    (For what it's worth, what happens to the soul does not negate the Raise Dead, Ressurect, etc spells.)
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:20 pm  

    Telas wrote:
    Think for a minute about how that would affect your life. Pretty fundamental, isn't it? Wouldn't you behave a bit differently?


    Perhaps not. If you have a philosophy like that of the Calvinists - which I gave to the Baklunish - your afterlife is predetermined, as are your actions, and behaving differently isn't really an option. If you begin behaving more chaotically or more benevolently, it's because you were meant to. People of such a creed are obliged to fulfill their responsibilities and accept whatever is coming to them.

    Others may find the practicalities of daily life outweigh the theoretical needs of the future. If you steal to survive, you're not going to stop stealing even though you're probably going to end up in jail and, eventually, Olidammara's or Kurell's realm or their vicinity. That might even be your goal.

    In truth, many people in the real world are convinced they know exactly what the afterworld is like, but this doesn't necessarily change their day-to-actions, at least not until they begin growing old. We might know what the consequences of credit card debt will be, for example, but that doesn't mean we stop accumulating it.

    It's not going to be an exact science, in any case. Who can really tell if they've broken enough laws to go to Limbo or if they've been selfless enough to make one of the three chaotic good planes? There are spells that can detect goodness or chaos or whatever, but they're not usually precise enough to pinpoint the exact plane that fits a person the best.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:15 pm  

    Actually, Mortellan, in the real world polytheisms there generally is only one afterlife for all the people. It may have differing quality rooms for guests based upon their ethics in life, but its all the same building. The norse sort of had a different locales for different folks theory, but only in a limited way. A few gods (Mostly notably Odin with the einheriar) cherry picked some of the dead to stay with them. But the overwhelming majority went to Hel's realm of the dead.

    D&D's basic metaphysics scheme works more like a multi-monotheism than any polytheistic example. Each god has his or her own personal paradise for its followers.

    I toss all that out and restructure the metaphysics entirely. Its a "gods vs demons' outer planes (even the evil gods are opposed to demons). And all the dead who don't worship demons go to Nerull's realm (albeit with somewhat different views on how that place functions held by the different cultures).

    Most cultures have "evil" death gods (Hades, Hel, Ereshkigal) so that is no particular burden on the structure of the afterlife. Hades oversaw both the good and bad destinations in the land of the dead, after all.

    Regarding restoration of life, I can't think of any real world polytheistic religion that espouses the idea that it is ever better to be dead. Even the nicest parts of the afterlifes are not better than life. My personal ruling is that those with life restoration applied to them don't have any recollection of the afterlife. In fact, those restored within the time frame of a raise dead haven't even made teh spiritual journey to the halls of Nerull yet. Those pulled back from really long term death just sort of have foggy memories of an existance they can't quite recall.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:30 pm  

    Oh, if you are interested.. IMC, 'undeath' is something associated with the really icky folks, namely demons like Orcus. Nerull is not a pro Undead entity in my campaign, at least not as far as "aware" undead goes. Zombies and skeletons are a different matter.

    IMC, the land of the dead is overseen by Nerull. Wee Jas' function is as a guardian and judge of the dead, the one who makes sure that the righteous go to the high rent districts of the afterlife and their bodies aren't defiled by ghouls. That sort of thing.
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:38 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Actually, Mortellan, in the real world polytheisms there generally is only one afterlife for all the people.


    That's true, but things like ancient pagan Norse or Greek religions aren't a good parallel for the situation in the Flanaess. Instead, look to the beliefs in the ancient Roman Empire - those influenced by the cult of Mithra believed the dead became one with the sun, while those influenced by the Magi believed they souls joined the stars. Neo-Platonists believed that the sinful had "heavier" souls and went to the Underworld as described in ancient Greek mythology, while the virtuous ascended into the heavens as described by the Eastern religions. Initiates of the Orphic mystery cults, on the other hand, and others believed in the transmigration of souls - that is, reincarnation. Still others believed in the afterlife promised by priests of Osiris, one much like the world of the living once one avoided the demons who guarded it by use of certain spells. Some Jews believed in reincarnation, some believed in multiple Heavens of punishment and reward (as in the Book of Enoch), others had different beliefs inspired by Neo-Platonism or other popular philosophies of the time. The Mediterranean was a complex mix if competing faiths and cosmologies until Christianity steamrolled in, and the Flanaess would be much the same.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:32 pm  

    Yes, you could make that comparison, though there is nothing in the source material to support that sort of religion. Almost all of those you mentioned were fundamentally the same type of faith: a mystery cult. The core idea being that by undergoing ritual initiations and other spiritual development you attained unity with the godhead. The exact conception of the godhead varied from faith to faith, thus changing the iconography of the afterlife. You could argue that there were a bunch of different creators to attain unity with, but that's not really any different than saying the different variations on the "land of the dead" that were used in European/Near East polytheism had to be completely different places because of superficial differences in the descriptions

    The thing with mystery cults is that they are a kind of proto-gnosticism (or, in some cases, out right gnosticism) that isn't really compatible with a canon understanding of the dieties of the flanaess. One could certainly create that sort of cosmology for Oerth, of course. But the gods are pretty irrelevent in that sort of faith except as parable/exemplar.

    I think a better mediterrainean parallel for the Flanaess is the hellenistic and roman era syncretism of the traditional polytheistic faiths. Herodotus never heard of a foreign temple he couldn't tell you the matching greek god for... The Baklunish version of Nerull and the Oeridian one don't match in every particular, yet they remain Nerull.
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:59 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Almost all of those you mentioned were fundamentally the same type of faith: a mystery cult.


    No, not really. Neo-Platonism isn't a mystery cult, for example, though some of its famous practitioners, like Julian the Apostate, were also initiates of the Mysteries. The Eleusian Mysteries, the Orphic Mysteries, and the Mithraic Mysteries are all mystery schools, but the idea of a celestial destination for the dead (as opposed to the subterranean one familiar to the ancient Greeks, Etruscans, and so forth) went far beyond them - which is why it ultimately became part of Christianity.

    Quote:
    that's not really any different than saying the different variations on the "land of the dead" that were used in European/Near East polytheism had to be completely different places because of superficial differences in the descriptions


    That's one of the fundamental ideas behind the D&D cosmology, so I don't think it's that unreasonable an idea. It's certainly a matter of opinion, considering they aren't real places at all - it seems to me we can just as easily assume that Hades' realm and Ereshkigal's realm are completely different places as we can assume that Persephone and Ereshkigal are two names for the same goddess. Perhaps from the perspective of Levi-Strauss' structural criticism or Jungian archetypes they're the same, but that's hardly the only way to look at it.

    The Egyptian afterlife, Duät, seems in any case very different from the gloomy afterlives of Sheol or the like.

    Quote:
    I think a better mediterrainean parallel for the Flanaess is the hellenistic and roman era syncretism of the traditional polytheistic faiths. Herodotus never heard of a foreign temple he couldn't tell you the matching greek god for... The Baklunish version of Nerull and the Oeridian one don't match in every particular, yet they remain Nerull.


    I would argue, rather, that the opposite is true - Oerth is very much a place (and I know Samwise vehemently disagrees with me) where each culture has its own pantheon with its own distinct set of gods. If the Baklunish have a god of death other than Istus, he is very definitely not Nerull. Mictlantecuhtli and Nerull are similar in some respects, but they're not the same god either. The elves have a goddess of death seperate from the dwarven god of death, who is seperate from the halfling god of death, who is seperate from the Suel goddess of death. Rather than one god with many masks or faces, there are hundreds of gods shaped by the prayers and sacrifices of very different cultures, and though the cultures might merge the gods strive mightily to assert their individual identities as long as they can.

    The Flanaess is like the ancient Mediterranean in its vast plethora of gods from a variety of peoples and places, and there may indeed be some syncretism - someone might worship Istus and Wee Jas as the same deity, or as part of a trinity of goddesses who are in some sense one - but fundamentally there is a sense in which they are not the same.

    I'm not saying your way of doing things is bad or anything, but this seems to me the way the Flanaess appears. Personally, I think it's more interesting that way.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:19 pm  

    Well, I'm with Samwise on the overabundance of redundant dieties. I pretty much use the list in 83 folio and only add a few that didn't make that cut. So I don't use any of non human gods. Most of the evil humanoids worship Beltar, Erythnul, or some icky demon... The Elves' main goddess is Ehlonna. Stuff like that.

    On the other hand, I've made the elves' religion and the Old Faith into mystery cults.

    As for neo platonism, I did say "almost all".....

    I'm not opposing making each pantheon have a different land of the dead (though that's not how I do it). But that is not what D&D actually does, at least as far as human gods go. They make it out like every single god has a private repository for the souls of its followers. *That* I think is silly, personally. If you want to have Nerull, Mictlantecuhtli, Wee Jas, etc all oversee different lands of the dead, that's a cool. I just prefer to have my cultural variants without having to have a bazillion extra gods to manage it..
    Forum Moderator

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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:41 am  

    Wow what a theology course this has turned into! Good stuff guys.

    I tend to favor losing the demi-human pantheons if only to elevate the B-list gods they overshadow. Less is more. I think rasgon (pretty sure its you) has some good writings on how they are integrated together logically rather than two distinct sets.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:34 pm  

    Why lose the demi-human pantheons?
    Suggesting the demi-humans are second class citizens?

    If you are suggesting the "human pantheons" have to many gods, simply don't bring them into play, not every god has to make an appearance consign them to the "out there somewhere category" rather then give the B-list human gods to the demi-humans.

    I feel the demi-humans having their own pantheons adds to their uniqueness and credibility within GH so they are viewed as cultural equals.

    After all it's all those ascended or infernal humans that keep adding to the Deity list, perhaps the human gods should raise the bar to keep out the riff raff.

    Just a thought...
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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 2:04 pm  

    This thread has really made me think about my campaign's theology. It'll probably never come into play, but what the hey, it's all for fun...

    This is all my opinion, and I'm basically thinking aloud. Feel free to ignore this post if you don't want any part of that (and I can't blame you).

    Each culture *should* have its own gods. Including demi-humans. As cultures change (by merging with other cultures, disasters, or a simple changing of the times), the makeup of the gods changes. Since Greyhawk is largely a mix of cultures, it's only fitting that it has a mix of gods: Suel, Baklunish, Oeridian, Elven, etc.

    It's my belief that a god carries some inherent strength through his sphere of influence and personality, but his power is largely dependent on belief. Not necessarily worship, just belief.

    Like Terry Pratchett's Diskworld, there are many forgotten gods out there. Some, like Tharizdun, do not need many worshippers. Others, like some of the Suel gods, have all but died out from lack of worship.

    Each culture/pantheon will have its own hierarchy, but they are in constant rivalry with each other. Very few religions survive for long if they fail to recognize other cultures' religions, so there is a fair amount of cross-belief, even within fairly pure bloodlines. This is not to say that the Scarlet Brotherhood will worship al-Akbar; only that they will acknowledge his presence. And sometimes that's all that is needed.

    While the gods depend on their worshippers, they don't necessarily care for them on an individual basis. (I've thrown in some Greek/Roman "spoiled child" elements here.) What is most important to a god is how he looks to other gods ("Street of the Gods" cred), which is largely dependent on how many people believe in him. The worst thing a god can have happen is not to lose worshippers, but to fade away from "lack of interest".

    I haven't decided why the gods don't "meddle" on the Prime Material yet, but I'm thinking either a pact, or a phenomenon that would prevent direct incarnation on the PM (either through physically barring them, or an incentive to keep them at home). Either way, it doesn't matter much to the campaign I'm running (although it may at some point).

    And now back to the philosophizing by those better trained...

    Telas
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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:54 pm  

    I don't dispense with the idea of demi human originated dieties. I dispense wtih the pantheons added in the Dragon magazine. That does not make demi humans second class citizens by any means. The error is thinking all the gods on the 83 list were always "human" gods. My argument is that, just as the human pantheons have mixed and merged over time, so have the demi human pantheons. The '83 list was written by humans for humans, so it presents those gods as worshipped by humans (and Aerdy humans in particular). That doesn't make them "human" gods.

    Ulaa is clearly a dwarf/gnome god. Ehlonna works very well for chief goddess of the elves. There was an excellent article here on canonfire some months back ( http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=570&mode=&order=0&thold=0
    ) that is very similar to what I do (in fact, I've adopted several ideas from it).

    Greyhawk gods are clearly multiracial in their worshippers. I just don't see any reason to have two largely identical gods whose main difference is name and race. I'd rather they were the same god worshipped by two different groups.
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:31 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I just don't see any reason to have two largely identical gods whose main difference is name and race.


    Well, of course there's none, so in such a situation you either assume they're the same (for example, Labelas Enoreth and Lendor, or Myrhiss and Hanali Celanil) or you emphasize their differences so that they're not largely identical anymore. I don't think an elven god should be largely the same as a human god - their mindset is very different and their gods should be as well, so Labelas Enoreth is a very different sort of god of time than Lendor or Cyndor, or Chronepsis or Istus.

    The reason to have gods with overlapping portfolios (for example, Ralishaz, Norebo, Rudd, Nebelun, and Erevan Ilesere) is mainly to increase the number of choices available to PCs (and NPCs), and thus the versatility of the setting as a whole. A neutral druid isn't limited to choosing Obad-hai as a patron, therefore - he can also pick Beory, Berei, Sheela Peryroyl, or perhaps Bralm - and perhaps some of these are aspects of one another, different faces the goddesses use for different purposes, but how are mortals to even know?

    I don't think simplicity is necessarily a virtue - give me complexity any day.

    I agree, however, that Ulaa is clearly a goddess originally worshipped by dwarves and gnomes (and possibly other mountain-dwelling races). I count her as the common mother of Moradin and Garl Glittergold, though she could also simply be considered the goddess of mountains, as Dumathoin is god of mines and Clangaddin is father of battle. If the former is the case, she ought to get her greater goddess status back. I'd prefer it if gnomes and dwarves didn't have to share all their gods, however, but have gods of their own as well.

    While Ulaa was originally a greater goddess, Ehlonna started out as a mere lesser one and thus seems less qualified for "chief goddess" status. As someone worshipped equally by humans and elves and in both guises, she seems perfect as patron of half-elves, but I think the Flanaess would be sadder without Corellon and his silver bow. I think of Ehlonna as the daughter of an elven and a Flan god - perhaps Corellon Larethian and Obad-hai (the elven gods being polysexual shapeshifters).
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:55 pm  

    I prefer the complexity to be in the religions, not in the gods per se. Thus, although I do not have an "elven pantheon" organized around Corellon, I do have a "Seldarine Mysteries" which makes the elven worship of Ehlonna, Myhriss, etc a very different experience than the typical human followings of those gods.

    On the druid side of things, I've made the Old Faith into an initiatory multi diety religion, so there are no "druids of Beory" vs "druids of Obad hai". There are different strands within the faith, so that druids are not cookie cutters of each other (not that I consider that a big risk, with proper character development anyway).. But it is the difference between two different aspects of the same faith, not two different faiths.

    Or, perhaps, you could say I prefer fewer, more complex gods. Ones able to inspire and handle different modes of worship amongst different cultures.

    On the greater/lesser thing, I'm pretty heretical also. I only have seven"greater" gods (Beory, Istus, Nerull, Incabulos, Pelor, Boccob. Lendor). They are the gods that played a part in the creation of everything else. They are all distant beings with little direct worship except for Pelor, at least in terms of dedicated temples and priests.

    I just find that lots of gods which you don't have the time to put tons of interesting detail into are not very satisfying. I'm much happier working with fewer gods and carefully polishing them into interesting and unique forms.
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:08 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    They make it out like every single god has a private repository for the souls of its followers.


    This makes sense if you buy my Oeridian theory - if the Oeridians believed their souls are guided into the sky by Celestian to join with the constellations, and each constellation is associated with a god, you have a somewhat primitive version of the D&D cosmology, one that meshes at least somewhat with something people believed historically.

    I haven't attempted to make the Suel pantheon match a historic belief system - they seem more like a fully D&D culture to me than a real-world one. I imagine they believe in 17 outer planes with multiple gods per plane because they were, at one time, magically sophisticated enough to know that this was true (at least, in a sense), and this knowledge eventually reached other peoples as well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:38 am  

    Well eventually I would like to submit my farthest respect to Rasgon. Together with some other people of our community Rasgon has just proved in this thread his deep understanding in religion and Greyhawk theosophy. Why don't you compile the above in an article? Mind submitting to OJ?

    What are your comments on the All and Nothing being?
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