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    Canonfire :: View topic - Demihumans Beyond the Flanaess?
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    Demihumans Beyond the Flanaess?
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:53 pm  
    Demihumans Beyond the Flanaess?

    The postings of Samwise and Crag in my Olman Origins and Metalworking made me think about demihumans and what they're like beyond the Flanaess. Crag stated that he didn't want to see Asian halflings or Baklunish dwarves. I have to admit, I personally do. I'm fascinated by the idea of seeing how other real-world cultures, besides the medieval European ones, would fit into a D&D milieu, and how they would influence and be influenced by the demihuman and humanoid cultures.

    Anyway, if not dwarves, elves and orcs, then what other mythical races might be their equivalents in other areas of the world? 1E Oriental Adventures described the "korobokuru" and spirit folk of Kara-Tur; what kind of non-humans would interact with the Oerthly equivalents of Mesoamerica or the vast Muslim empires of Mohammed, on a regular basis? I personally love to think about how these cultures would interact with D&D demihumans, humanoids and monsters...but what races would be in their places, if any?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:46 pm  

    I wonder what non-European fairy tails have to say. Hobbits are out of JRRT's mind, but dwarves and elves go way back in Eurpoean lore. I do not know enough about Asian and other cultures' lore to say whether there are demihuman equivalents. That looks like a good project.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:06 pm  
    Re: Demihumans Beyond the Flanaess?

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    The postings . . . made me think about demihumans and what they're like beyond the Flanaess. Crag stated that he didn't want to see Asian halflings or Baklunish dwarves. I have to admit, I personally do. I'm fascinated by the idea of seeing how other real-world cultures, besides the medieval European ones, would fit into a D&D milieu, and how they would influence and be influenced by the demihuman and humanoid cultures.


    CSL,

    I agree with you. I see no problem whatsoever with demi's everywhere modified by the culture in question, of course, and not precluding unique local races as well.

    Elven samurai? Sure!
    Dwarven mamelukes? Sure!

    I'm not sure gnomes and halflings are sufficiently versatile to adapt as well as dwarves and elves but I would not rule anything out immediately.

    I'm with you on this one. Smile
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    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:42 pm  

    It all depends on where you think the various races began, and where and why they've migrated since. They have to compete with human and monstrous groups in most areas, which is going to limit their spread in some areas, as will mountain ranges and other geographic phenomena.

    If you assume, for example, that at the beginning of time elves, humans, orcs and dwarves were all created in the same Garden of Eden/Atlantis and spread throughout the world at more or less the same time then yes, they could all be just about anywhere.

    On the other hand, if you give them all distinct homelands and specific reasons for moving from them, the spread of a given nonhuman race might be quite limited. I think the latter genesis is potentially more flavorful, but that's me.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:20 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    It all depends on where you think the various races began, and where and why they've migrated since. They have to compete with human and monstrous groups in most areas, which is going to limit their spread in some areas, as will mountain ranges and other geographic phenomena.

    If you assume, for example, that at the beginning of time elves, humans, orcs and dwarves were all created in the same Garden of Eden/Atlantis and spread throughout the world at more or less the same time then yes, they could all be just about anywhere.

    On the other hand, if you give them all distinct homelands and specific reasons for moving from them, the spread of a given nonhuman race might be quite limited. I think the latter genesis is potentially more flavorful, but that's me.


    Go Rasgon! Smile What you have just posed, I believe, is the great potential use of Guns, Germs and Steel in GH. Oerik is an almost Pangea-like continent and oriented east/west in a way that triggers GGS' other factors but also its greatest failing - the failure to significantly differentiate among "Eurasian" peoples. Oerik is a "eurasia." It would be, IMO, a facinating exercise to apply GGS to this supercontinent. Of course, first we would need to know much, much more about those areas beyond the Flanaess.

    I favor a single point of origin and "family tree" for all "humans" - humans, demi's and 'oids - as they can almost all interbreed.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:53 pm  

    Let's examine some of the common nonhuman races one at a time:

    Elves: Gray elves, or faerie elves, entered the Oerth from the plane of Faerie before the beginning of the Suel calendar, settling first in the northern Suel basin, near the base of the Sulhaut mountains where they were tutored in advanced magic by dragons. As their civilization grew, they began propitiating a variety of chaotic powers from Arvandor to the Abyss. The year 1 in the Olven Calendar marks the end of the long kinslayer wars between the demon-seeing elves and those who served more benign forces - the demon elves were driven underground, forced to take refuge with the duergar and kuo-toas who were, at the time, their allies. Many of the other gray elves had fled the wars along the same path the Suel would later take toward the Flanaess, where they founded mighty cities and kingdoms.

    The high elves had already been in the Flanaess, probably long before the gray elves ever set foot on the world. They were merely the most civilized of the race that also included sylvan elves and grugach. The more magically sophisticated gray elves dominated them for a time, their faiths out-competing the native religions of the highfolk, but by the time of the great human migrations the faeries had mostly retreated into mist-shrouded islands and vales, no longer associating with other olvenfolk.

    Beyond the Flanaess, I would assume that any elves are also descendents of the faeries. In the mountains above the Suhfang empire are elves with storm-gray skin who still worship demons even the drow have long since abandoned, using sorcery to protect their lands with elemental spirits of lightning and wind. In the lands below, faerie elves have interbred with native wood spirits and dragons to create the "spirit folk," an aloof people more concerned with the unchanging rules of the cosmic bureaucracy than the mortal world.

    Dwarves: Dwarves originated in the tall mountains of central Oerik. After the death of their first high king they slowly moved in all directions. In the West the clannishness of the dwarves only increased, until many groups became almost insectoid, the whole clan seeming to share a single mind. On the other hand, some abandoned civilization, becoming barbarous and chaotic - the korobokuru, who for some hardly seem like dwarves at all.

    Gnomes: Gnomes are cousins of the dwarves (perhaps with some trooping fey blood) and share the same homeland. Gnomes have always had a greater lust for wandering than the dwur, however, and they soon vanished from the mountain halls - some records suggest they moved laterally through the planes. In theory, they could be anywhere. In the West many of them have become sailors and boatmen and only briefly remain on shore, while in the Flanaess they tend to remain in the forests and hills, the waters being dominated by the races of humanity.

    Halflings: The hobniz were always wanderers until the feudalism of the Oeridians constrained them to village life. Once they moved throughout the Flanaess, adapting to the ways of each race they encountered, easily becoming more manlike among humans, more dwarflike among dwarves, and more elflike among elves. There's no reason to assume they couldn't do the same anywhere.

    Orcs: Orcs have been rivals of the elves and dwarves since their creation (where myth holds both elves and orcs were created from the fallen blood of warring gods on the battle-plains of Gladsheim), and they long warred against the gray elves, but they didn't enter the Flanaess in any great numbers until they were brought in as mercenaries and slaves to the invading Suel. They are found today in most regions where elves and dwarves are (though the storm elves of Suhfang have entirely wiped them out).

    Goblins: Goblins originated in Western lands, where they were the least creations of the oni warlords who ruled those regions tainted by the proximity of the infernal planes. Originally chaotic and changeable bakemono, they slowly stabilized into three distinct races after the Baklunish began employing them as mercenaries against the Suel and their orcish legions. Hobgoblins and their lesser charges entered the Flanaess after the Invoked Devastation, and proved more successful there than the Baklunish.

    Nagas: Originating in Western lands, they are sometimes brought into other regions by admiring yuan-ti. Guardian nagas are also sometimes placed in far-off lands by the gods themselves in order to counter their evil and neutral kin.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:01 am  

    As to the Baklunish, the main non-human races they deal with are the djinn. The main sub-group of the djinn they would deal with would be the Janni, they being the most similar to humans, and the most able to blend into the Baklunish society without creating undue tension.

    Humanoids seem to roam/live everywhere, and Ull seems to have more than a few. I've always liked the idea of "advanced" ogres living in the west. By "advanced" I mean only slightly more intelligent and civilized. Half-ogres and half-orcs would be those most often encountered in civilized areas, and while they might turn a few heads here and there at being slightly unusual, they wouldn't draw the attention that they would in the eastern lands. The case for dwarves the living in the areas of the rocky west can be made the most easily. Dwarves affinity with the elements of earth and fire, as well as their innate hardiness, make them well-suited to adapting to a desert environment. They might live in warrens cut into the stone of the land lying beneath the sand, or make their homes in rocky outcrops scattered throughout the arid lands. Such dwarves would actually make prime candidates for a settlement of xenophobic dervishes. Dwarves with all blue eyes and wearing magical leather armor that absorbs and stores moisture might make me hunt down anyone with such a lack of imagination though. Wink

    Not all of the Baklunish lands are just desert wastelands however. Much of its is windswept plains with hardy scrub and other foliage. Some of it is grassy plains. These are the areas where the horse lords roam. Such places would be more appropriate for elves, gnomes and halflings. Halflings have a literally agrarian society, which is necessary to support their mass consumption of consumables. They do Beldar the Conehead proud. The Baklunish lands do not really serve well to harbor any sort of thriving halfling population. You might have a halfling community built up around a large oasis, but there would not be many such places in the Baklunish lands to support a large community. Besides, such oases are usually stopping points for travelers, and ownership of them would be hotly contested. Such oasis serve better as holy places where all travelers can seek succor without fear of being harassed. Elves and gnomes might be more appropriate to such an area, as would any number of humanoids- gnolls in particular.

    Half-elves could be found literally anywhere, as usual.

    One of the things that intrigues me most about elves and humanoids both is the fact that they are known to intermix with humans. Intermixing with Baklunish humans over a long period of time might slightly influence the appearance of such elves and humanoids, even if only slightly. An elf might have a ruddy/golden/bronze/tanned skin tone, or be prone to dark hair color. The same goes for the humanoid races who, reproducing much more quickly, might exhibit even more pronounced Baklunish tendencies in their appearance.

    Beyond appearances, Baklunish cultural tendencies/traditions might also bleed into the cultures of demi-humans and humanoids living in Baklunish lands. Modes of dress, cultural behaviors/taboos, and other important and interesting facets of Baklunish society might find a place with such non-human races. In the process of this cultural amalgamation, such cultural facets might become altered into an entirely new behavior as it is taken in, absorbed, and changed to better suit the various demi-human and/or humanoid outlooks.

    There is quite a bit of potential for developing non-human racial identities in lands outside of the eastern and central Flanaess.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:46 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Of course, first we would need to know much, much more about those areas beyond the Flanaess.


    Well - apropos that climate thread a few months back -I got an atlas, a casual look at climatology gleaned off Wikipedia, Holian's oerth map and started colouring in rough climate/biotas with Photoshop.

    Breaking it down by rough region:

    Bakluni/Komali basin: Ranges from temperate lands in the north to semi arid steppes in the south. Largely occupied with Bakluni peoples including some driven east by the wars of the Celestial/Sufhang Empire.

    The Sufhang Steppes (comprising "Orcreich" (brrr!) and the Khanates from the Dragon Annual map): Ranging from cool temperate coastal lands around the sea to the north to cool, semi arid steppes to stretching between the mountains. Inhabited by (wholly ungermanic) nomadic orc tribes and Bakluni(cousins of the Paynims)/Oeridian nomads.

    The Celestial/Sufhang Imperium: Tropical/subtropical coastlands gradually petering out into the steppes and plains in the north (at the fringes of the empire's reach - defended by the enormous walls shown in the Dragon Annual map). Inhabited by a race of people (the Sufhang?) not known to the Flanaessi. May have displaced the Oerids east and west from central Oerik with the founding of the Imperium.

    Zahind, Kallaraj and its dominions ("Zindia" and "Nippon"): Equitorial and tropical forest for the most part. Inhabited by a blue-black skinned race of people related to the nomads found on the southern fringes of the neighbouring Sea of Dust. Its possible these might be the same as the Sufhang?

    "Erypt": Large desert occupying south-western Oerik (south of the Sufhang Mountains). Inhabited by a mix of Oerids displaced south in ancient times and the native desert peoples (not known to the peoples of the Flanaess).

    Western Oerik - here things get sketchy due to the enormous rain shadow effect of the Sufhang Mountain chain (said to be the highest on Oerth and presumably, therefore, at least Himalaya sized in terms of height). Even at the equator, you'd expect to see an extension of the southern deserts reaching up along the western side of the mountains, with semi arid plains and savannahs as you move further west and then perhaps some tropical forests again near the western coasts of Oerik. To the north and south of this central arid/desert region you could have steppe and temperate lands along the north and south coasts. In general though - I'd see western Oerik being far drier than Central or Eastern parts of the continent.

    Inhabitants - I see Oerids displaced west from Central Oerik by the Sufhang. Of course there'd also be native peoples - possibly reasonably advanced on the northern and southern coastal regions, with various nomad groups inhabiting the dry heart of western Oerik and no dount occasionally making mischief of themselves.

    How this fits (if at all) with Chainmail - I have no clue. To make a fit - you'd probably have to invoke magical effects on climate.

    Other continents/significant landmasses:

    Fireland - A mix of tundra in the north, taiga forest for the most part and some fairly temperate country along the south coast. Settled by Suel sea farers from Rhizia, but perhaps also by the coastal peoples from western Oerik.

    Anakeris (the continent south of the Solnor): A land of extremes. Desert/arid savannahs in the north and centre. Tundra and Taiga along the southern coast. A temperate region on the south western corner and a subtropical/temperate area on the eastern coast. Possibly settled by migrants from south western Oerik. Possibly also the original home of the Touv (migrants from western Oerik, along the coasts of Anakeris and from there to southern Hepmonaland?).

    Hyperborea (northern polar continent): Mostly ice cap - but the isthmus connecting it to Oerik is far south enough to support strips of tundra, taiga and even reasonably temperate coastal lands along that cul de sac at the end of the Dramidj.

    Southern polar continent - much smaller and all ice cap.


    Last edited by Woesinger on Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:59 am  

    For WoG, I pretty much decided early on that humans, elves and dwarves were everywhere, and adapted to/helped to adapt the culture around them, thus "asian", "african", and other culturally adapted demihumans.

    rasgon wrote:
    "On the other hand, if you give them all distinct homelands and specific reasons for moving from them, the spread of a given nonhuman race might be quite limited. I think the latter genesis is potentially more flavorful, but that's me."

    This is the approach I took for my homebrew capaign, Caryth. Its really helped add flavor to the setting.
    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:20 am  

    In the plains of the Paynims, thri-kreen, wemics, and lamiae roam wild. Once the lamiae had a kingdom in Ull, but that was shattered by the Oeridian migrations and has not yet recovered.

    For some reason I can see cyclopskin being relatively common in Baklunish lands.

    The Baklunish themselves aren't native to their present lands - they fled there over 3200 years ago after their Wars of Light and Darkness. It's very possible that before that, those lands were exclusively Oeridian.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:09 pm  

    I think there has been a misunderstanding Confused

    I am not against demi-humans appearing within different regions of the flanaess, what I am against is the Demi-humans becoming cultural dress up dolls, where the asian halfing or Baklunish dwarf simply apes the dominate human society of the area.

    Personally I think the various Demi-human races have been fleshed out enough that they could stand on their own two feet. There will no doubt be some cultural assimilation within the varying regions however their should also be some cultural bottom lines as well. I hope the DMs see this as an opportunity not an impediment to highlight differences and provide some cultural friction between the races and society as a possible "hook" for adventures.
    ie. Perhaps halflings females trade produce in a strictly patriarchial nation causing embarrassment and anger?...what if the town needs the foodstuffs?

    Dwarves of Baklunish refuse a "suggestion" to join the Mouqollad unwilling to place there birthright under human guild law and continue producing weapons, claiming they are for personal use...however soon a certain percentage of fine quality arms happen to "find" their way into the local militia for cheaper prices despite Mouqollad anger the local commanders seem extremely slow to act.

    Many points of contention exist where the demi-humans get their backs up and refuse to accept the human rules in various ways either subtle or overt that pose a problem for the people in power.
    Novice

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    Tue Oct 11, 2005 4:55 pm  

    I agree with Crag...

    Since we assume, based on demi-human descriptions, that they have certain "genetic" characteristics such as dwarves enjoy gold, steel, and mountains or elves like song and forests then they would also maintain those distinctions in a different human cultural region as well. I think, however, that they would certainly have some similar cultural institutions from the given region of origin.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:01 am  

    Crag wrote:
    I think there has been a misunderstanding Confused

    I am not against demi-humans appearing within different regions of the flanaess, what I am against is the Demi-humans becoming cultural dress up dolls, where the asian halfing or Baklunish dwarf simply apes the dominate human society of the area.

    Personally I think the various Demi-human races have been fleshed out enough that they could stand on their own two feet. There will no doubt be some cultural assimilation within the varying regions however their should also be some cultural bottom lines as well. I hope the DMs see this as an opportunity not an impediment to highlight differences and provide some cultural friction between the races and society as a possible "hook" for adventures.
    ie. Perhaps halflings females trade produce in a strictly patriarchial nation causing embarrassment and anger?...what if the town needs the foodstuffs?

    Dwarves of Baklunish refuse a "suggestion" to join the Mouqollad unwilling to place there birthright under human guild law and continue producing weapons, claiming they are for personal use...however soon a certain percentage of fine quality arms happen to "find" their way into the local militia for cheaper prices despite Mouqollad anger the local commanders seem extremely slow to act.

    Many points of contention exist where the demi-humans get their backs up and refuse to accept the human rules in various ways either subtle or overt that pose a problem for the people in power.


    I do believe there has been a misinterpretation. I never for a minute intended to say that Asian halflings or Baklunish dwarves would strictly mimic their human counterparts, but I am fascinated by seeing how they'd interact with other real-world human cultures besides Feudal European ones...

    Another example might be how North American First Nations might interact with dwarves. I see it almost as being like the historical fur trade in real life. Consider: The First Nations (or their Oerthly cultural equivalents, like the Flan) would trade the furs of a variety of creatures, from buffaloes to foxes to bears, all the way to monsters like auromvoraxes, chimeras, and gorgons.

    The First Nations would receive steel weapons, such as swords and spears, from the dwarves, which are useful in combat against orcs and goblins that wear metal armor. They would also receive tobacco, alchohol, and other dwarf-produced goods, much like the real aboriginal peoples did from the white fur traders. Most of them, except the ones with sedentary lifestyles, wouldn't take metal armor from the dwarves, though, given that the bulk and noise hinders hunting, and is dead weight to people that are constantly on the move. They might have a few suits for ceremonial purposes, or for times of war, but other than that metal armor is more of a hindrance than a help.

    The dwarves, in return, would obtain furs, fruits and vegetables, water, or even permission to harvest timber and mine diamonds and gold in the human territories. That, in turn, could lead to some interesting developments...

    But that's just an example. One of the things that fascinates me is trying to think about how the D&D mythos fits into a "global" scale. Sure, we all know how medieval Europe reacts when the dwarves, elves and goblins are real. But how do the non-Caucasian cultures get along with them, if they interact with these beings? Are they friendly? Hostile? How do the demihumans and humanoids interact with them politically? Culturally? The dwarves in the above example might lose some of the overweening pride that is one of the main flaws in their culture, and might treat the environnment with more respect when they do their mining.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:35 am  

    Everyone seems to agree that they wouldn't want Ninja Dwarves and Samurai Elves. I agree. Although I've never extended any of my Greyhawk campaigns into the "Far West" I've opted for my official history to say that there are no demi-humans west of the Flanaess (with the exception of Halflings due to their origin - my heretical version - being in the Far West). I explain this by the major demi-human's origins being in the Flanaess, and with the assumed low-birthrates of Dwarves, Gnomes and Elves they never spread very far. Plus the lands west of Flanaess are pretty boring steppeland for the most part (I assume they had always been that way), so why go there. Maybe there were/are some Dwarves in the Sulhauts. Humanoids on the other hand are almost everywhere. Anyway, that's my boring version. If I were to include demi-humans beyond the Flanaess I'd probably opt for them being of the same basic races but called by different names. Occidental Dwarves would be korobokuru, but basically the same as the Oriental Dwarves of the Flanaess with some cultural differences due to isolation from the latter. Elves likewise would be a little different, but still inhabit more natural environments. I might identify Elves as Jinn or Efrit to the Baklunish and set them in a desert, since I've never really utilized the various elemental Jinni races. Basically what I'm saying is they would remain Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes on a the broadest level, and still prefer the same types of environments, but with some social differences. Although it might be fun to come up with some wildly varying subraces.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:08 am  

    Here's a totally random spin on things:

    If you had First Nation tech humans and fantasy dwur (with the axes and the armour and the gruff temprement) side by side - what's stopping the dwur dominating the humans?

    Fantasy has always portrayed the demi-humans as sitting back and letting those pesky humans take over and run the show. Well - maybe somewhere the olve and the dwur or the noniz haven't just rolled over and are keeping the hoo-mans down?


    P.
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    Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:13 am  

    That's an interesting idea, except I don't really see any of the demi-humans being motivated to dominate Humans or other races for that matter. I think the Dwarves would probably just exterminate the pesky Humans. Elves I see as killing or capturing Humans who encroach on their territory until they get the message. Gnomes would probably just play cruel practical jokes on interlopers. Happy
    Of course this wouldn't take into account non-traditional demi-human cultures.
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    Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:57 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Here's a totally random spin on things:

    If you had First Nation tech humans and fantasy dwur (with the axes and the armour and the gruff temprement) side by side - what's stopping the dwur dominating the humans?

    Fantasy has always portrayed the demi-humans as sitting back and letting those pesky humans take over and run the show. Well - maybe somewhere the olve and the dwur or the noniz haven't just rolled over and are keeping the hoo-mans down?
    P.


    Admittedly, many dwarves have imperialist leanings and are full of hubris, but at the same time they can be quite honorable in their dealings with the taller folk. The First Nations could easily have peaceable relations with their shorter allies...or they could fall to blows with the dwarves if the latter decide to just come in and begin mining the land, as dwarves often feel they don't need human permission to take anything they want. If they're on opposing ends, the First Nations might be given metal weapons by elves, by other dwarves (dwarves sometimes spend more time fighting each other than orcs or humans...), or by other humans who are sympathetic to their plight.

    Also remember that the First Nations have historically held their own when fighting white armies-the Iroquois Confederacy fought the French to a standstill, and we all remember Little Big Horn. Any number of dwarves could have the same attitudes as George Custer, of course. And superior speed and stealth tactics were common against the larger, more heavily armed forces employed by Europeans. In a toe-to-toe hacking match, the dwarves might win, but they'll have a harder time fighting Natives riding fast horses, giant stags, trained gorgons, or what have you.

    The Natives would also have magic on their side, I think. Variations on druids, their own clerics, and whatever passes for 3E sorcerers among them would all give them a decided edge. Dwarven magic is used to seek out veins of gold and cast sharpness into an axe, not to divine where hidden enemies are located, or cast killer lightning bolts at the foe. Trained animals are another matter as well-the Blackfoot Confederacy easily adapted the horse into their war tactics, and there's no reason Natives in a D&D world couldn't adapt gorgons, giant scorpions, auromvoraxes, giant weasels, giant stags, or any other monsters that have special abilities, but no alignment as such.
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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:44 am  

    [quote="CruelSummerLord"]
    Woesinger wrote:

    Also remember that the First Nations have historically held their own when fighting white armies-the Iroquois Confederacy fought the French to a standstill, and we all remember Little Big Horn. Any number of dwarves could have the same attitudes as George Custer, of course. And superior speed and stealth tactics were common against the larger, more heavily armed forces employed by Europeans. In a toe-to-toe hacking match, the dwarves might win, but they'll have a harder time fighting Natives riding fast horses, giant stags, trained gorgons, or what have you.


    Wow. No. Not in the least.

    The Iroquois defeated the Algonquin's with some minor French help. They never faced the full might of the French nation.
    Likewise Sitting Bull defeated Custer. Against the army sent afterwards, his defeat was inevitable.
    Also note that this doesn't account for the results in Meso-America and South America, where the Aztecs and Inca couldn't win with odds over 1,000-1.
    You'd be a lot closer pointing at Zulu fighting not just the Dutch, but the English, to a standstill in South Africa. But the victories in North America came primarily from fighting against small, scattered, uncoordinated, local forces, rather than against armies, or against people like Custer.

    Quote:
    Trained animals are another matter as well-the Blackfoot Confederacy easily adapted the horse into their war tactics, and there's no reason Natives in a D&D world couldn't adapt gorgons, giant scorpions, auromvoraxes, giant weasels, giant stags, or any other monsters that have special abilities, but no alignment as such.


    You mean aside from the fact that monsters aren't animals, and those in particular aren't horses?
    There is a difference between domesticated horses and trained wild animals, and a bigger difference between trained wild animals and trained monsters.
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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:32 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Zahind...Inhabited by a blue-black skinned race of people related to the nomads found on the southern fringes of the neighbouring Sea of Dust.


    Might I ask what the source (canonical or not) of these blue-black skinned folk are?
    Kwint
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    Sat Oct 15, 2005 2:51 pm  

    kwint wrote:
    Might I ask what the source (canonical or not) of these blue-black skinned folk are?
    Kwint


    Greyhawk Adventures, I believe, was their first mention. They're found primarily in the southern and western parts of the Sea of Dust, so it's likely they originate from nations to the south and west.

    According to Gary Gygax's novel Sea of Death, the nations to the south of the Sea of Dust are Changol, Jahind, and Mulwar, while the nations to the west are Sa'han, Behow, and Chomur.

    According to the Oerth Journal #1, the race of "beautiful dark skinned humans" are called the Kersi, and they came from a continent called AnaKeri over six thousand years ago, trading with the ancient forerunners of the Suel.
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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:59 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Personally I think the various Demi-human races have been fleshed out enough that they could stand on their own two feet.


    I agree. DragonLance's contrast between the Qualinesti and Silvanesti elves is more akin to what I'd like to see in the way of cultural differentiation among such non-Flanaess demi-human offshoots.
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    Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:43 pm  

    From Dragon #122 we have the utuchekulu, a race of carnivorous, leaping dwarflike humanoids native to African-like lands perhaps comparable to southern Hepmonaland. We're also told of the wakyambi, a race of sidhe-like beings from "beyond the sun" who wander with their herds of heaven-cattle. They are said to have tails. Creative Campaigning called African elf-equivalents the Hu-Kwani, or tree children.

    Dragon #202 expanded on this, adding various tribes of animal-men (including thri-kreen, manscorpions, intelligent gorillas, and nagas), and several races of demihumans (batwinged humans, chameleon-skinned humans, and a race of hairless, obsidian-skinned dwarves).
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    Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:40 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    Crag wrote:
    Personally I think the various Demi-human races have been fleshed out enough that they could stand on their own two feet.


    I agree. DragonLance's contrast between the Qualinesti and Silvanesti elves is more akin to what I'd like to see in the way of cultural differentiation among such non-Flanaess demi-human offshoots.


    Oh, well that's certainly something I can live with too. I obviously misinterpreted Crag-I thought he meant demihumans should only be in the Flanaess, and nowhere else. That, to me, is an absolute non-starter when dealing with Greyhawk. The demihumans are spread around the world, just as are the humans. The same goes for humanoids. That's the way it is, the way it always has been, and the way it always will be for me.
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    Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:12 pm  

    If I read the migrations history correctly, the Oerid, Rhenne, all the demi-humans, and the humanoids were all immigrants to the Flanaess---therefore they must have all come from elsewhere. To me, that suggests that there should also be significant cultural differences between the "original/native" groups and those that migrated to the Flanaess.
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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:54 am  

    grodog wrote:
    If I read the migrations history correctly, the Oerid, Rhenne, all the demi-humans, and the humanoids were all immigrants to the Flanaess---therefore they must have all come from elsewhere.


    Allan, I bow to your obviously more extensive knowledge of Greyhawk, but what is the source for demi-humans being immigrants? In the 1980 Gazetteer (Unfortunately the only version I have) the demi-human races are stated to be "the original demi-human peoples of the area." That's why in my campaigns, dwarves, elves and gnomes don't exist outside the Flanaess. Of course this passage screws with my non-canon version of halflings as immigrants from the same time period as the Suel and Oeridians Embarassed

    I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just interested in your source(s).
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    Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:45 pm  

    Hi smillan_31---

    No need to bow, I make plenty of mistakes, especially when my GH books are all 1800 miles away Confused

    Source-wise I was specifically thinking of the fact that the demi-human realms were "effected"---more specifically, in the Folio timeline:

    Quote:
    461 [CY]... Demihuman realms of Ulek and Celene are effected


    Paul Stormberg discusses this in his OJ12 Q&As with Gygax (effectedmeans "to cause to come into being" per www.m-w.com). This noteworthy (first?) creation of kingdoms, as well as the fact that many of the human calendars predate the demi-human calendars, is what suggests to me that demi-humans may not have been native to the Flanaess, and that they therefore came there from elsewhere. Now, that may be spurrious, but it's what I was thinking :D

    Relative to where demi-humans came from, I think that while the human tribes migrated easterly across Oerik afoot (or ahorse, as the case may be), it's possible that the demi-humans arrived from other planes rather than coming from another place within Oerth. I'm sure that's been discussed elsewhere in print and online, but I can't think of the original sources off the top of my head.

    Anyway, while I do recall the Flan being stated as the first inhabitants of the Flanaess, I don't recall the demi-humans being listed as original inhabitants too (and I may well have forgotten a source or six, so fill me in if so). The demi-humans must have been around long enough for the Flan to have created their names for them (dwur, etc.), but that doesn't, to me, mean that they were there before the Flan.
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:55 am  

    grodog wrote:
    If I read the migrations history correctly, the Oerid, Rhenne, all the demi-humans, and the humanoids were all immigrants to the Flanaess---therefore they must have all come from elsewhere. To me, that suggests that there should also be significant cultural differences between the "original/native" groups and those that migrated to the Flanaess.


    Also, the Rhennee have arrived to Oerth from another world by accident.

    Other than that, Allan's conclusion must be correct.
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:58 am  

    Also, Rasgon is amazing how much he knows Embarassed
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:46 am  

    Tz: "Also, the Rhennee have arrived to Oerth from another world by accident. "

    This is new to me. Is there somewhere I can read about this?
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:44 am  

    The Glossography in the World of Greyhawk boxed set mentioned it:

    "Rhennee folklore claims that their race came to Oerth by accident, their home plane being quite different. Thus, legend says, the Rhennee roamed about on horseback and in wagons, but in their new home, conditions were so dangerous as to force them to take to the water to survive. Nobles claim descent from legendary leaders of the lost tribe, while ordinary Rhennee are descended from the common folk of the tribe.

    "A third sort of Rhennee folk exist, although they are most rare. They are land wanderers who claim to be the only "true" Rhenn-folk because they have not changed their way of life since coming to the Flanaess from Rhop, homeland of the Rhennee."

    And then here it is again in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer:

    "The Rhennee are not native to Oerth; rather, they are accidental travelers from another plane or world, citizens of a lost homeland they call Rhop. Their legends say that they appeared first in the Great Kingdom, in or near the Adri Forest. Pursued by monsters and hostile Aerdi, they fled west to the shores of the Lake of Unknown Depths, where they took to life on the water."
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:44 am  

    Thank you Rasgon. Any idea of what Rhop is?
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:55 am  

    If I might step in....

    Quote:
    Rhennee folklore claims that their race came to Oerth by accident


    They are a wandering race that accidentally ended up on Oerth?
    Taken literally and not as folklore, speculation would tell me they caravaned en masse through a gate or fading land type border. Maybe something like the Mists in Ravenloft. When it comes to gates someone would be bound to notice something fishy going on, unless Rhop and Oerth were virtually identical and the above accident was a temporary overlapping space/time rift(Temporary for no other Rhop incidents have happened since). Now for a whole race (not just a few families) to be displaced leads me to think it wasn't entirely an accident, maybe they were tricked or maybe they were exiled peaceably by an unknown force.
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    Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:30 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Thank you Rasgon. Any idea of what Rhop is?


    A corruption of the word "Europe," likely. The implication is that the Rhennee were originally Rhomany gypsies of our world, or a parallel world very much like our own.

    The Adri Forest seems like an appropriate place for them to come from, considering how spooky and supernatural it is. Perhaps when the City of Summer Stars vanished it left behind a rift or soft region in the Material Plane through which large numbers of people could wander without realizing it.

    Ivid the Undying said this about the ruins of the City of Summer Stars in the Coldwood, deep in the Adri Forest:

    At the heart of the Coldwood the old City of the Summer
    Stars has simply disappeared. The magic of the elves has
    faded, and the city with it. Some say that its ruins can be
    found within the Fading Grounds, but the portal to it
    within the Coldwood is unknown. All of the city is gone
    from Oerth—save Darnakurian's own keep.


    So perhaps it was through the Coldwood portal that the Rhennee first came.

    Some have theorized that the Rhennee are the same as or an offshoot of the Vistani gypsies in the Ravenloft setting. If that's the case, "their origins are lost in the distant shadows of their oral history," but their legends agree that they "fled the place of their origin to escape a terrible shadowy enemy, which still seems to threaten them." And if that's the case, maybe the City of Summer Stars is now somewhere in the Demiplane of Dread.

    The simpler explanation of the origin of the Rhennee (I believe first suggested by Taras Guarhoth) is that they were the people of the Isles of Woe, which sunk beneath the Nyr Dyv long ago. I like that explanation a lot - and it explains why they still mostly live in the Nyr Dyv and its tributaries - but I also like them coming from another world.
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    Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:41 am  

    The name gypsy descents from Egyptian (some tribes claimed they came from a place called Little Egypt, and some of their leaders had the epithet Egyptian). No matter if Little Egypt is a part of Egypt, or if the place is ypt (=bellow) of the Aegean Sea, linguistic studies of their language indicate that they likely originated from India. Seemingly, some tribes during their westward migrations, around 10th century AC or before that, through Persia and Middle East to Greece (e.g., Crete island, Rhodes or Corfu island) and Bohemia (in central Europe), passed through Egypt. They hit Europe roughly around 1300s. They traveled afoot and on horseback. The wagon is a later adoption, dated probably not before the 18th century. In official and other documents they are described as magicians and rogues. One name for them, the Mandapolos, means fortune teller following Greek etymology. They are first encountered in documents as Asincan, meaning in Sanskrit moistening, likely associated with the fact that, lacking abode, they were not protected during their travels from the rain (even their tents do not offer full protection from moisture). The name may even be associated with the tears, due to their claimed religious crime that haunts them and forces them to travel. Modern day Asincans refer to themselves as Rhom or Rhomany.

    Given the above and the canon excerpts provided by Rasgon, it makes perfect sense that the Rhennee/Rhomany came from Rhop/Europe to Oerth. It also perfectly matches their unreligious profile (after their religous crime), and general profile of the Rhennee, especially if you dig into anthropological and historical studies on the Rhom. Then, the true Rhenn-folk, according to the second Rasgon provided canon paragraph, are the so called Attloi from City of Hawks Gord novel, who indeed maintain their customary ways, including horse and wagon travel.

    Rasgon’s calculations on their Adri forest arrival terminus, even being beyond my Greyhawk area of specialization, seem very reasonable. Such an event, the arrival of Rhennee to Greyhawk through Coldwood, based on the date wagons were employed by Rhom and on Greyhawk Meta-text Onomastics (the LGJ translation rule) should have happened not before 1700 -1410 CY, circa 300s CY.

    Taras' explanation is not “simple” as Rasgon put it, it is simplistic and shallow, and in parallel contradicts the canon LGG. The inhabitants of the Isles of Woe are most likely the Wind Dukes of Aaqa.
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    Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:45 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Such an event, the arrival of Rhennee to Greyhawk through Coldwood, based on the date wagons were employed by Rhom and on Greyhawk Meta-text Onomastics (the LGJ translation rule) should have happened not before 1700 -1410 CY, circa 300s CY.


    That sounds reasonable, although The Adventure Begins put the date earlier, around 150 CY.

    From TBA, page 58:

    "Also at this time, the Rhennee first appeared in Greyhawk. Some came overland by wagon from the Duchy of Urnst, fleeing persecution further east in the Great Kingdomm, but others came by boat, having learned with great trouble to navigate the rivers of the central Flanaess. The Rhennee seemed confused by the flora and fauna of this land, and they claimed to have come here from another world or plane they called Rhop. Their exact origins and how they came to the Flanaess have never been established, but certainly, they are not native to Oerth. They are thought to have first appeared in the Flanaess in the area around the Adri Forest circa 150 CY, moving west to avoid harassment by Aerdy soldiers and citizens. The Rhennee increasingly left the land to become migrants on the central rivers, until very few land-dwelling Rhennee now exist."

    It's possible, of course, that their journey took them not only across worlds, but through time.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:03 am  

    In the Elric Saga, I believe the particular title is Revenge of the Rose there is a Gypsy Nation that travels on village sized wagons on a wide road that completely circles their plane, its an endless travel basically. Now I'm not suggesting this concept for the Rhennee, but naturally for an entire population to be transposed from one plane to another they must've been a cohesive 'nation' of wanderers to start with on Rhop. Their reasons for being nomadic on Rhop might not have differed much after arriving on Oerth but the persecution was evidently great enough for some of them to learn how to live on water.

    As a side thought, anyone ever given much thought to what the overall 'Rhennee Nation's' population might be after almost 450 years?
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:37 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    It's possible, of course, that their journey took them not only across worlds, but through time.


    Yes that is a possibility. Also, real world historical research may be incomplete. Or time is not linear. Anyway, I just found another source that puts their arrival on Oerth 450 year before 591 CY, the LGG. So their arrival time is cross-checked. Interestingly, with no knowledge of these references GMTO proved not too bad Happy

    But I have to ask, Rasgon. I checked most of your data in your second post to the topic, they seem quite accurate. Especially your observation that euroz and the associated humanoids were almost if not totally absent in Flanaess before the migrations. But the faeries are present in sylvan forest zones, WoG Glossography, p.22. Infact their presence effects "temperate weather conditions and minimal precipitation throughout the year."

    Also, until I track the reference down, could you please direct me to the info on the elven calendar?

    A minor correction to you is that the dwur after the Invoked Devastation and the caused destruction of their Kingdom in north Crystalmists, moved east into Flanaess, not all directions. So there exist no dwur in Utter West.

    I will return the topic is so interesting.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:42 am  

    Cebrion was asking about the western Ogres, they are the Ogre Magi.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:41 am  

    Evidently, demi-humans are original inhabitants of Flanaess! In ’83 WoG Guide, the A Brief History of Eastern Oerik section, p. 8, there exists text:

    “…The success of the Oeridian domination of so much of the Flanaess was in part due to their friendliness toward the original demi-human people of the area – dwur, noniz, hobniz, olve – whose cooperation greatly strengthened the Oeridians.” Flanae also native inhabitants of Flanaess appeared after the demi-humans, since their calendar postdates by far the Olven Calendar (op. cit., p. 9, the chronological table of events).

    On the other hand, op. cit., p. 8 (and p. 9 the chronology of events), “Euroz and associated humanoid groups” helped both sides as mercenaries, i.e. the Suel and the Bakluni. Therefore, humanoids did exist west from Crystalmists prior to cataclysms.

    But let us have a more detailed look.

    Based solely on the ’83 boxed set, it is rather arbitrary premise that demi-humans migrated from west into Flanaess with the human migrating populace, thus joining the native demi-humans of Flanaess. On the opposite, euroz did move with the humans, since after their employment “they tended to pillage northward and eastward, driving the Oerids before them…Meanwhile, sufficient numbers of the Baklusish remained to hold the northern plains and maintain their small states against all comers.” Who all comers? The text continues: “euroz, high jebline, jebli, celbit, and such humanoids alike.” No mention of any demi-human race so far.

    It must be true that there were no euroz and related humanoid races in Flanaess prior to cataclysms, or at least their numbers were very limited! If the negation of the above were true, then there would have been some mention of them in the A Brief History of Eastern Oerik section (ibid.). On the contrary, there is mention only of the migrating-pillaging mercenary, gone eventually renegade, humanoids. Together with the above references, the text continues that “for two centuries the Oerid and Suel battled each other and the fragmenting humanoid hordes (mentioned above in the text driving the Oerids before them and threatening the Baklunish) for possession of the central area of the Flanaess, incidentally engaging the Flannish and the demi-humans (mentioned later in the text as original people of Flanaess).”

    Before the migrations, Flanaess was a paradise comprised by Flanae and demi-humans, and possibly few humanoids!

    All the above observations are strengthened by LGG. I could not find one reference of elves, dwarves, halflings or gnomes to have migrated with the humans into Flanaess. On the contrary, elves are mentioned to be present in Flanaess long before the Flanae (something that was already inferred by the chronological table of the ’83 Guide), and pressed by the invaders to form alliances with the rest of the demi-humans and sometimes with the Oerids. Relative to the migrations, the dwarf chapter states that they used to live in northern Crystalmists and their kingdom was destroyed by the Invoked Devastation, so they fled to Flanaess. The same situation holds for the gnomes of Flanaess, who used to live in the north (the rock ones, for the deep ones we do not know), and expanded southwards a few centuries before the cataclysms. If some other gnomes from the west had entered Flanaess would not that have been mentioned? Similarly, originally the halflings used to live by the rivers of west-central Flanaess, and slowly spread into other places until the migrations. No mention in LGG of halflings arriving with the invaders. And here comes the bold reference, LGG, p. 9: “Many of these foul creatures that now plague Flanaess arrived following the Oeridians and Suel.” But, I found no mention of demi-humans depleting Flanaess.

    Therefore, the members who did not like having oriental demi-humans (Cruelsummerlord and who else?) do not have to worry; there are no demi-humans (save the elves) in the west!

    I tried, two days now, to find one reference of the existence of gnomes, halflings, or dwarves in Utter West, tried Sagard the Barbarian, Gord novels, etc. I found none...

    I like this asymmetry that transpired, lets see what the rest of the members have to say.

    Relative to the “461 CY, Demi-human realms of Ulek and Celene are effected” reference the answer is in Guide p. 11, left column, up. Their principalities are effected, not the races. Prior to 461 CY, they just lived with no kingdoms. Human activities and threat caused them to get organized into states. No mystery into that one (see also LGG, p.8).
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:27 am  

    I'd say that the euroz and jebli migrated with the Suel and Baklunish, but kobolds, xvarts, giants, medusae, yuan-ti, beholders, sahuagins, dune stalkers, and plenty of other horrors might well have existed in the Flanaess before that, so I wouldn't call it a paradise (especially given the dark nature of some of the Ur-Flannae tribes).

    Personally, I like having there be a division between the Hellfurnace dwarves (who primarily worship Fortubo in thanks for liberating them from the tyranny of the Suel) and the dwarves native to the Flanaess, who primarily worship Ulaa and the Morndinsamman - that is, the pantheon headed by Moradin. This map of dwarven migrations suggests that the dwarves are quite widespread indeed (though it has no indication of Hepmonaland dwarves).

    I wouldn't necessarily assume that the year 1 in the calendar of the Flan represents their time of arrival in the Flanaess - it might represent the reign of a legendary king, the apotheosis of Zodal, the year the elves recognized humans as a sentient species, the founding of Vecna's realm, the day Beory descended from the heavens to become one with the world, or practically anything. I tend to favor the idea that year 1 in the Olven Calendar is the first year after the elven Wars of Light and Darkness, however.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:53 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'd say that the euroz and jebli migrated with the Suel and Baklunish, but kobolds, xvarts, giants, medusae, yuan-ti, beholders, sahuagins, dune stalkers, and plenty of other horrors might well have existed in the Flanaess before that, so I wouldn't call it a paradise (especially given the dark nature of some of the Ur-Flannae tribes).


    Right. I had assumed there were some humanoids around in the Flanaess that had been used by Vecna during his reign. That's assuming Vecna's reign was Pre-Devastation. Is there any canon dating on Vecna's reign BTW? I've never been able to find any.

    The idea mentioned above by Tzelios that the Oeridians were driven eastward by marauding hordes of Orcs always made me wonder if Gygax was thinking of the Germanic tribes being pushed west by the Huns. It doesn't fit perfectly but he did shape much of Greyhawks history after real world influences.

    I have been struck in reading this thread as never before by the prominence of the "humanoid hordes" in the migrations.


    rasgon wrote:
    I tend to favor the idea that year 1 in the Olven Calendar is the first year after the elven Wars of Light and Darkness, however.


    That had been my assumption too, as well as - for me at least - marking the begining of what Elves might call the Age of Man. The beginning of a system of dating doesn't necessarily have to assume the founding of the civilization whose dating system it is, just a significant event.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:04 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:

    Therefore, the members who did not like having oriental demi-humans (Cruelsummerlord and who else?) do not have to worry; there are no demi-humans (save the elves) in the west!


    No, no, no, no...you misunderstand me. I WANT to see demihumans elsewhere in the world; I just don't want to them to be cheap knock-offs of their equivalent human cultures, or clones of the Flanaess demihumans. As I've said before, I'm truly fascinated by how non-European cultures would affect and be affected by D&D demihumans and humanoids, if they lived among them. So, IYO, how would they work?
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:20 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Cebrion was asking about the western Ogres, they are the Ogre Magi.


    I think the Western Lands have ordinary ogres as well, as servants and manual labor serving their Ogre Magus masters.

    My thinking in this is heavily influenced by the Rokugan/Legend of the Five Rings RPG material. I don't have the 3rd edition Oriental Adventures book that describes them, but I have The Book of the Shadowlands, a Lot5R supplement that details the Rokugan realms of demonic evil. The rulers of the Shadowlands are the oni - some breeds closely resemble ogre magi, including the oni no ugulu and oni no genso. 1st and 2nd edition AD&D also identified ogre magi as an oni breed. Though 3rd edition oni are fiends - outsiders - and ogre magi are not, surely they're still related. Serving the oni are the bakemono, or goblins, as well as common ogres and trolls. In the 1st edition Monster Manual hobgoblins were also depicted with East Asian-style armor.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:43 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    I WANT to see demihumans elsewhere in the world; I just don't want to them to be cheap knock-offs of their equivalent human cultures, or clones of the Flanaess demihumans. As I've said before, I'm truly fascinated by how non-European cultures would affect and be affected by D&D demihumans and humanoids, if they lived among them. So, IYO, how would they work?


    Me too, but first give me evidence that they exist. There exist quite many sources to dig in, for instance Scottencainen's Oerik Overview, the Gord novels, the Sagard novels, interviews with the creator(s) of our game, the book Oriental Adventures 1e, which initially in particular was developed for role-playing beyond the Crystalmists. Did you find anything?

    I do a research for so many days now, I've spent so many hours, and I only understood what I wrote in my previous post and the one you will read after. Refute my arguments on the non-existence of them and we will design them together body.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:54 pm  

    Well the map of this unknown to me French (?) guy you provided is far from canon, I am not negative to use it, but please convince me first.

    Please try to refute the following arguments:

    1. LGG, p.9, clearly states that the Dwarven Kingdom was located north Crystalmists which is northern than the junction with the Sulhaut Mnts which separate Dry Steppes from Suel basin. It is very unreasonable that the Sulhaut Mnts were not a dead land after the cataclysms. Therefore there is no reason for the dwarves to move south and west to dead lands, the only way is east.

    2. Show me one canon or otherwise reference of published material, or even an interview with the creator(s) of our game indicative of the presence of the dwarves in Utter West.

    Also, after the '83 Guide (and LGG) kobolts=celbit are likely absent from Flanaess before migrations. I understand that the word "paradise" may seem inappropriate. However please consider the following:

    The introduction of the Ur-Flannae was by Sargent in Dragon #208. While the later association of Vecna with the Ur-Flannae is very convenient, I feel that the race was treated with some abuse. There is absolutely no evidence in the '83 boxed set that the invaders of Flanaess met any resistance by the Ur-Flannae. On the other hand, the Flans allied with the Oerids if not pushed to isolation. While there certainly existed some very weak cults after their decline, the Ur-Flannae acted in a quite older period, 1000 years before cataclysms per LGJ#3, p. 15. But even with the development as it is in canon, there exist archeological findings and only one minor incident with Ur-Flannae insurgents of the Great Kingdom, obviously by the text they were members of a minor cult (LGG, p.157). Also LGG states that their necromancers’ powers waned a long time ago, and some of their rituals are preserved through Old Faith.

    Immediately, the presence of the elves in the absence of the orcs, the associated humanoid races, and the Ur-Flannae, may effectively result in a, at least, short-time paradise in Flanaess just before the cataclysms. I would say with safety half a millennium, or few centuries.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:01 pm  

    "Your pardon, girl, but I have met many elves and half-elven folk in my travels," Gord went on. "Even the dark-haired sort have fair skins. The elves of the west must indeed be of a unique sort, with such a deeply tanned complexion and fair hair as you have." - Sea of Death, page 161.

    Of course Leda is a drow with genetic material from beneath the Hellfurnaces, but Gord, who is fairly well-traveled, thinks it's at least possible that there are elves in the Western Lands.

    That's all I've got, and honestly I'm not big on the idea of elves in Western or Midwestern Oerik myself, though my suggestions above are things I'm okay with.

    I do, however, like the idea of dwarf-descended korobokuru and utuchekulu in the Occident and Hepmonaland, respectively.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:56 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    I do a research for so many days now, I've spent so many hours, and I only understood what I wrote in my previous post and the one you will read after. Refute my arguments on the non-existence of them and we will design them together body.


    No offense Tzelios, but je pense que vous avez le même problème que beaucoup d'autres fans de Greyhawk-vous êtes trop prises dans le "canon".

    I figure that, if I can do whatever I want in my version of Greyhawk, I can make up whatever I like on demihumans that live outside of the Flanaess, and canon be damned. I'm also not sure what connections Sargard the Barbarian or Kara-Tur have to Oerth, given that the former was a solo gamebook adventure series and the latter was incorporated (and rightfully so) into FR. And no, I don't think the Gord novels really count as canon-don't they end with the world getting destroyed?

    So, let's make stuff up then. Anyone want to take first crack at it?

    P.S: Non Tzelios, je ne suis pas francophone moi-même, mais j'ai fait mon devoir civique en tant que patriote canadien et j'ai appris les deux langues officielles. Je ne suis pas francophone, mais j'ai très fière d'être francophile! ;)
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    "Your pardon, girl, but I have met many elves and half-elven folk in my travels," Gord went on. "Even the dark-haired sort have fair skins. The elves of the west must indeed be of a unique sort, with such a deeply tanned complexion and fair hair as you have." - Sea of Death, page 161.


    Thank you Rasgon, I was not aware of that reference. Nevertheless, throughout my own searches, I never questioned the existence of elves in the west. My proposition was
    tzelios wrote:
    there are no demi-humans (save the elves) in the west!


    Where is Occident?
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:27 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Where is Occident?


    The West. "Orient" means East.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:30 pm  

    Why should you be offended? You seem like though Sad But it is not my fault, I did not know that the map was yours, and sorry if I offended you, Jared. Whosever would have been the map he/she should not have been offended, I spoke no offense.

    I would like to thank you for the very interesting question you raised. It is due to your question that some people understood something new. For example Smillan_31 realized the important role of the mercenary humanoid groups during the Bakluni-Suloise wars and migrations. I myself had this great opportunity to clarify things in my mind, and formulate the "pre-cataclysms Flanaess paradise theory."

    By the way, Rasgon is again on target! “Korobokuru is a race of Oriental dwarves” reads the Oriental Adventures 1e, p. 12. So, there exist Oriental dwarves, but not as a result of the migrations following the cataclysms. Korobokuru are distant relatives of the dwarves.
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    Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:43 pm  

    [quote="rasgon]The West. "Orient" means East.[/quote]

    I did not know that either!

    So, we have Occidental Dwarves, the Korobokuru, and Occidental Elves akin to the Drow!

    The Occidental Elves should be evil, eh? Where is this reference on the demon-seeing elves, you mentioned earlier?
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:10 am  

    So - just because there's no mention in canon of demihumans, there are none?

    That's a bit of a restrictive noose you're tying there, don't you think? Very little has been written in canon about the west, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist - just that no one in WotC/TSR ever wrote about it.
    Remember - Greyhawk is a made up world...

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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:16 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    So - just because there's no mention in canon of demihumans, there are none?

    That's a bit of a restrictive noose you're tying there, don't you think? Very little has been written in canon about the west, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist - just that no one in WotC/TSR ever wrote about it.
    Remember - Greyhawk is a made up world...

    P.


    I could not agree more.

    "Canon" has to be written by someone to become "canon" in the first instance.

    Silence is not "canon." If it were, there could never be any additions to "canon" for such would contradict the prior silence.
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:44 am  

    Tzelios wrote:

    Where is this reference on the demon-seeing elves, you mentioned earlier?


    I made that up on the spot.
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:25 am  

    I think it is a bad idea to use the terms “Orient” and “Occident” unless the directions are swapped. To be sure, they do mean the east and west respectively, but they also refer to earthly culture, more so than “the East” or “the West.” GH is confusing enough with the east/west swap.

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/o/o0119000.html

    o•ri•ent Listen: [ ôr-nt, -nt, r- ]
    n.

    Orient The countries of Asia, especially of eastern Asia.

    a. The luster characteristic of a pearl of high quality. b. A pearl having exceptional luster.

    Archaic The place on the horizon where the sun rises; the east.


    oc•ci•dent Listen: [ ks-dnt, -dnt ]
    n.


    Western lands or regions; the west.

    Occident The countries of Europe and the Western Hemisp
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:00 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I think it is a bad idea to use the terms “Orient” and “Occident” unless the directions are swapped.


    You can't swap the directions - that'd be even more confusing if "Orient" suddenly meant West. East and West are the primary meanings of these words - the meanings of "Asia" and "Europe" are derived from those meanings.

    But fair point, otherwise. Calling the Flanaess the "Oriental Lands" would definitely confuse the uninitiated, especially with a book called Oriental Adventures out there.
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:37 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    Why should you be offended? You seem like though Sad But it is not my fault, I did not know that the map was yours, and sorry if I offended you, Jared. Whosever would have been the map he/she should not have been offended, I spoke no offense.


    You didn't offend me at all. What map are you talking about?
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:16 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Tzelios wrote:

    Where is this reference on the demon-seeing elves, you mentioned earlier?


    I made that up on the spot.


    Not a bad idea at all. To me it makes good sense so far, especially if you go to the link below, there is room for evil elves on land.

    Reading Scottenkainen's An Overview of Oerik excellent article, the Western Oerik territory that hosts the elves is called Minaria, not at all without reason. I am pretty much convinced that Scott Casper did a great job with the article; since I followed the past Greytalk thread he participated and based his mini project. It is a pity that the Greytalk archives are down Sad According to my recollections Casper joined two Darlene maps, the one of Greyhawk and the one of Minaria setting, the result being Oerik as we know it today. So he drilled material from the Minaria setting and other sources related to West Oerik like Gord novels. Note that Sagard novels are primarily adventures in Utter West that Casper did not take into account. Utter West is a term coined by Erik Mona, after his old review article on the Sagard novels.

    Occidental is an appropriate term for me; however after the above article I believe Minarian is a better term for the elves.

    So far for me it is fine to have Minarian Elves and Korobokuru (Occidental Dwarves). However, note that off-Flanaess Oerik is so vast that there exist certainly variations of the above generic races. Reading the sources on my hands, and after analyzing the migrations, I cannot support so far the idea of having Occidental Gnomes and Halflings – they certainly do not exist in Middle Oerik. Especially for the halflings, it seems like they are a particular species originally inhabiting central Flanaess river banks. After the post-migrations Flanaess paradigm, given that the demi-humans in the presence of humans are organized into Kingdoms like the principalities of Ulek and Celene, such a possibility is diminutive. It is a possibility though that in the ultra-harsh conditions of the west the races of gnomes and halflings are extinct. Either they would have coalesced into Kingdoms to be protected from the vast numbers of humanoids and human (evil or otherwise) nations which is not the case or they simply never existed or have extinct.
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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:19 pm  

    Interesting thoughts, here, folks :D

    I agree with Rip that the calendars don't signify the entrance of a race into Oerik---instead, it's the date when they simply began to record their history in written form with dates. That doesn't preclude oral histories, or of secret dating systems/calendars (of the dwur, perhaps, borrowing an idea from Tolkien). The Flan, for instance, may have been the most druidically-inclined of the human races, and if so, perhaps they tracked events from a celestial/seasonal/cyclical perspective that didn't require written records until everyone else had a calendar going for so long that the lack of a calendar became a barrier to basic communication.

    When I said that the various realms were effected, I was definitely taking a logical leap that the demi-humans themselves had been also, at some point, been effected. That is, like the nations they founded, demi-humans spontaneously appeared, or were created, or arrived---not all at the same time, not all in the same place, not all from the same place, but still not having been there before (whether physically not present, or nationally not signification/organized remains to be researched [assuming I'm not way out in left field, which may well be the case]). I still don't recall anything source-wise, for the idea that some demi-humans were not native to Oerth and/or migrated there from elsewhere, so the idea could be something that I made up or absorbed from D&D campaigns I've played (or reading too much Moorcock ;) ).

    The importance of the humanoid mercenaries in the migrations cannot be overstated, especially in the sense that they drove the Oeridians before them (i.e., the hugely warlike Oerid were on the run, at least to some degree). I have also read the history such that that humanoids in general were not present in the Flannaess prior to the migrations: perhaps the Suel Imperium and Baklunish nations served as a buffer, and kept them at bay, away from the pristine and paradisical Flanaess....
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:12 am  

    grodog wrote:
    I still don't recall anything source-wise, for the idea that some demi-humans were not native to Oerth and/or migrated there from elsewhere,


    Spelljammer claimed that, as did the Complete Book of Elves:

    "Some contend that Oerth is the elven homeland, the place where all others sprang.

    "Contesting this claim, however, are the existence of the grugach and the valley elves. Although these two races may be merely offshoots of the sylvan elves and grey elves, respectively, they are found nowhere outside the world of Greyhawk. Were Oerth truly the elven homeland, then these two variants would be found outside it. Perhaps the true birthplace of the elves is lost in the shadows of time, or perhaps it was destroyed during the great Elfwar. Whatever the case, it is likely that Oerth is not the origin planet."

    This is, of course, faulty reasoning on many levels - there are grugach on other worlds, and it's easy to imagine grugach and valley elves appearing after other elves left the Oerth for other realms, and of course elves might have multiple origins.

    It continues in the section on Spelljamming elves:

    "If it is true that the elves did originate from one world, it should come as no surprise that they deny it. Having seen what other races have done to their worlds and how many of these worlds are now obliterated, the elves would naturally want to make sure that none of these races could discover and then destroy the elf homeworld.

    "Conversely, another theory states that elves only learned to live in harmony with their new worlds through the destruction of their original home. This, the critics claim, is the elven shame, and they hide the planet because they don't wish it known that they weren't always as insufferably perfect as they are now."

    Planes of Chaos suggested that it was the plane of Ysgard where the elves originated, and this makes sense to me - that the battle-plains of Gladsheim would have been where Corellon and Gruumsh fought. Mythic events probably generally happen in the planes of myth.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:23 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    I cannot support so far the idea of having Occidental Gnomes and Halflings – they certainly do not exist in Middle Oerik. Especially for the halflings, it seems like they are a particular species originally inhabiting central Flanaess river banks.


    That's reasonable, considering real-world halflings - homo floresiensis - were all confined to one island, and Tolkien's halflings didn't seem to exist outside the Shire. Oerth's halflings we know are very adaptable and sociable compared to the previous two, considering they have subspecies entirely due to their tendency to live among other races, but perhaps not so much that they've spread all over the world. The Baklunish lands don't seem to have any, and they would presumedly have had to cross them to get anywhere else unless they traveled south of or through the Suloise Basin (which is possible).
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:38 am  

    I still cannot get over the image of naked hairy hobbit hominids running about the place grunting, conjured by GVD’s The Natural History of Furyondy at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=659&mode=thread&order=2&thold=0
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:10 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    That's reasonable, considering real-world halflings - homo floresiensis - were all confined to one island, and Tolkien's halflings didn't seem to exist outside the Shire.


    Real world halflings? Shocked Which island?

    rasgon wrote:
    Oerth's halflings we know are very adaptable and sociable compared to the previous two, considering they have subspecies entirely due to their tendency to live among other races, but perhaps not so much that they've spread all over the world. The Baklunish lands don't seem to have any, and they would presumedly have had to cross them to get anywhere else unless they traveled south of or through the Suloise Basin (which is possible).


    But the halflings do not like travel so much, save the adventurer types within adventuring groups who return to their families and friends after adventuring. No? May be it is Tolkien's stereotype.. And if they had to travel that would be to the other direction, going to Aquaria for instance? (Recalling Mentzer's theory on how Aquaria was populated by demi-humans) But then no demi-human race is seafaring, save the Minarian Elves.

    I would also like to correct the meaning of Asincan, it most likely means the one who is not approaching towards his destination, after the verb "thiggano" that means approach, and the prefix "a" is negation.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:20 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...and Tolkien's halflings didn't seem to exist outside the Shire.

    Halflings lived in Bree also and when Smeagol killed Deagol, they lived near the Misty Mts...IIRC, they migrated west to the Shire from east of the Misty Mts...
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:12 pm  

    Hobbit-Like Human Ancestor Found in Asia (Indonesia)
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:40 pm  

    I like the idea that Elves originated extra-planarly (is that a word?), maybe being just the less powerful descendants of Eladrin from Arborea, or the inhabitants of the Plane of Faerie, or who knows?

    rasgon wrote:
    ... and of course elves might have multiple origins.


    I was wondering how you could have multiple origins and got a mental image of Corellon waving his hands and saying "Let there be Elves... on Oerth and Toril and Athas and..." Happy
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:29 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    But then no demi-human race is seafaring, save the Minarian Elves.


    I'd add the Spindrifts elves to that as well.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:09 pm  

    The 3e vision of halflings, which is somewhat suggested in the LGG article on halflings, has them being frequent travellers and, in some cases, outright nomads. The LGG also asserts that halflings originated in the west central Flanaess. For what that's worth.
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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    I still don't recall anything source-wise, for the idea that some demi-humans were not native to Oerth and/or migrated there from elsewhere,


    Spelljammer claimed that, as did the Complete Book of Elves


    Thanks ragson. I have a few SJ books, but not the CBoE, so the latter wasn't my inspiration.
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    Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:15 am  

    Girls and guys,

    Is it true that noniz means oerthling in Flan language?
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    Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:25 am  

    So what are your ideas on how dwarves appeared in Sprindrift isles? Through underdark?
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    Fri Oct 28, 2005 5:28 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    So what are your ideas on how dwarves appeared in Sprindrift isles? Through underdark?


    Or...they could have come in a boat with the human settlers or merchants. Dwur in general don't like the sea, but that doesn't mean that they ALL hate the sea and won't travel on ships.

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    Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:51 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Spelljammer claimed that, as did the Complete Book of Elves:
    "Some contend that Oerth is the elven homeland, the place where all others sprang.

    "Contesting this claim, however, are the existence of the grugach and the valley elves. Although these two races may be merely offshoots of the sylvan elves and grey elves, respectively, they are found nowhere outside the world of Greyhawk. Were Oerth truly the elven homeland, then these two variants would be found outside it. Perhaps the true birthplace of the elves is lost in the shadows of time, or perhaps it was destroyed during the great Elfwar. Whatever the case, it is likely that Oerth is not the origin planet."

    This is, of course, faulty reasoning on many levels - there are grugach on other worlds, and it's easy to imagine grugach and valley elves appearing after other elves left the Oerth for other realms, and of course elves might have multiple origins.


    Not to mention it's just a stupid statement. "Were Oerth truly the elven homeland, then these two variants would be found outside it." I mean, lets turn it around a little, and look at this statement: "Were Bobville truly the homeland of people named Bob and Bobby, then these two variants would be found outside it." Does THAT make sense?

    The most diversity in species usually occurs where the species originates, not where it ends up. Genetics and linguistics both suggest (and I'm summarizing here) that there's more diversity between human populations in Africa than between any other two groups of people in the world.

    Plus it ignores the obvious. Valley elves are, by defination, limited to the Valley of the Mage. Enviromental and/or cultural factors shaped them there.

    Switching topics, I like gnomes as a northern race - found in colder regions throughout Oerth. Gnomes are cool.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:42 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Tzelios wrote:
    So what are your ideas on how dwarves appeared in Sprindrift isles? Through underdark?


    Or...they could have come in a boat with the human settlers or merchants. Dwur in general don't like the sea, but that doesn't mean that they ALL hate the sea and won't travel on ships.

    P.


    Then there is this L3 module with very ancient dwarven dungeons and tombs presumably before any humans settled on the isles.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:50 pm  

    Said ancient dwarves colonized Lendore by clinging to the backs of elephants.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:45 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Said ancient dwarves colonized Lendore by clinging to the backs of elephants.


    Is this yours?
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    Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:10 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    So what are your ideas on how dwarves appeared in Sprindrift isles? Through underdark?


    Sure. I envision that the underworld of Oerth connects many places that aren't connected directly via overland or oversea travel. As a somewhat simplistic example, we know that illithids exist in/around the Riftcanyon from the introduction of 1983 Guide; illithids also exist uner the Hellfurnaces per D1-3; drow also exist beneath the Pomarj (in A2), and Blackthorn connects to the underdark too. IMCs I have therefore postulated an underworld network of passages that run below Keoland, the Sea of Gernat, and the Cairn Hills/Nyr Dyv that connect these disparate areas (an underworld superhighway of sorts, I suppose).

    Many similar such connections can and should exist, including ones that connect the Spindrifts to the mainlands of Oerth and Hepmonaland (perhaps).
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:47 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Said ancient dwarves colonized Lendore by clinging to the backs of elephants.


    Is this yours?



    Heh, yeah. That was actually the real-life explanation for the giant rats who lived alongside pygmy elephants in the islands of Melanasia.
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    Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:28 am  

    grodog wrote:
    I still don't recall anything source-wise, for the idea that some demi-humans were not native to Oerth and/or migrated there from elsewhere,


    I'm not sure if Erik Mona's Ancient Mysteries is exactly what I was thinking of for the emigration of the olves to Oerth, but the article at
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=225
    definitely suggests that they were not native to the Flanaess, at the least.
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    Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:25 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    I'm not sure if Erik Mona's Ancient Mysteries is exactly what I was thinking of for the emigration of the olves to Oerth, but the article at
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=225
    definitely suggests that they were not native to the Flanaess, at the least.


    True, but it does suggest that they've been in the Flanaess for millennia, if not eons - at the time they arrived, the only humans were the "neanderthals"; the Flan had either not yet entered the Flanaess, or they had not yet evolved.
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