Canonfire!

I was just poking around the AoW forums on Paizo seeing what little gems of Greyhawkana I could find (that and it's a slow day at work) and I came across an intriguing reference to the Wind Dukes of Aaqa or Vaati in the Oriental Adventures web enhancement.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20011019a

Now the surrounding realm of the Seven Kingdoms looks generic and non GH-y without a few changes to the map on there, but I was intrigued by the description of the Vaati society itself - rigidly divided into castes (which would fit perfectly with a neighbouring Hindu style caste society and the Wind Dukes' own lawful nature).

So I got wondering - what if the Wind Dukes had had some influence over the society of Zahind? Now I'm not saying that Aaqa is in the mountains to the north or west of Zahind (is there not canon to suggest that they walked the planes, which probably means Aaqa's not on the Oerth??), but there might be a gate thence up there - which would be much the same thing (kind of like the Tibetan legends of Shambala or Shangri La)? What if they had some cultural influences on Zahind - for example a kind of regimented caste structure?

Just some random food for thought....

P.

Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:58 pm

The vaati are from the Elemental Plane of Air originally. They ruled an empire which eventually encompassed all of the Inner Planes and parts of the Material Plane before it was destroyed by their war with the Queen of Chaos.

The Vale of Aaqa is a secluded valley on the Material Plane to which the last remnants of the vaati have retreated. Except for the wendeam, they are rarely found in other planes. Aaqa, then, isn't their homeland; it's their refuge.

The Vale of Aaqa is possibly the same as Lake Aqal in the Fellreev Forest.

"The girl's tale of benign, long-featured men who walked on air engendered much derision among the bandits..." - Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 147. This seems to be a reference to the vaati.

The only problem with this identification is that Lake Aqal isn't in a valley as such. It may, however, represent a dip in the topography.

As they once ruled a great deal of the Material Plane, yes, they might well have had some influence in the society of Zahind/Jahind.

It's possible that "Aaqa" merely means "refuge" in their language, and thus there might be more than one. Maybe both Lake Aqal in the Flanaess and the Vale of Aaqa in Andribandhas (in the Mahasarpa campaign Woesinger linked to) represent secluded remnants of the Wind Dukes.

Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:47 am

The other possibility is that they have a refuge in the Prime somewhere that has a number of gates to other locations in the Prime (such as the place in the OA setting and Lake Aqal)?

P.

Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:11 pm

The advantage of adopting the Seven Kingdoms of Mahasarpa to southeastern Oerik is that it's a pretty good pseudo-Indian setting that no other campaign world has claimed.

I think it fits fairly well.

Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:00 pm

Or maybe this more compressed way. I guess it depends on how far the old Mahasarpa raj extended. Maybe it was limited by rakshasas and Olmans.

Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:18 am

The only problem is the Steppes there. There's not really steppeland on the the other side of the mountains. Unless - we fudge it and say that the steppes referred to are actually the steppes north of Sufhang and the Zahindi are lousy mappers. :-)

Alternatively - we could say that by steppe, they mean the slightly less dusty, but still desolate western end of the Sea of Dust?

Either way - I think we could fit the Seven kingdoms down there...as a ready potted Zahind (that being the collective term for the native people, their culture and the region as a whole).

Thoughts?

P.

Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:24 am

Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:58 am

Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:49 am

Ok - I finally got around to reading the Mahasarpa background. It's a nice foundation (if a little too like Rokugan) - but the backstory sucks big style.

The whole arrogant king bringing down wrath of of god who turns him and followers into monsters is a direct rip off of Sulm (and too like what happened to the Olman in Hepmonaland) and so not terribly interesting as a background for Zahind. And the fate of Zardula is similarly very like that of one of the Olman cities IIRC and just plain dull. Jungle cities falling under curses have been done to death.

Plus there's the fact that they had to keep the margins of the setting uncluttered - so they haven't factored in external interactions. If this were Zahind - you'd have to mention the Suel Imperium to the north, the Olmans to the east, the "Nippon"/Kalaraj with its"Dominions" and Dragon King (for which the sea is named) to the south, the lands over the mountains to the west and the long arm of distant Sufhang to the north west. For example, Zardula might have been razed by the Suel or the Olmans and its people scattered and destroyed, allowing tiger weres to drift west out of the Amedio and occupy the forest.

Still, in the states themselves there's a very basic foundation upon which more interesting histories and details (making the the states less pigeon holed for a start) can be constructed.

For example, the Singhas could be modeled on the real world Rajput princes of Rajastan, who were big on both fighting and honour. See the fate of Chittorgarh (in two of the many sieges the great fort faced) and the Rajput tendency to end futile sieges through Juhar - mass suicide of the defenders where the women fling themselves on bonfires, while the men dress in saffron robes and ride out to their deaths.

The holy warriors of Gandharva or Bhalluka might take inspiration from the Sikhs and their idea of the Khalsa. The history of the Sikhs is strewn with as many tales of epic heroism as the Rajputs. See the story of Baba Deep Singh, who vowed to rest only in the precincts of the Golden Temple in Amritsar (then under Mughal or Afghan occupation) and fought his way through superior numbers to die there, despite the fact he'd been practically beheaded by an enemy sword stroke.

Vriscika might be something like a decadent version of the holy city of Benares/Varanasi on the Ganges - both sacred and profane.

Lakshamana could have all the splendour and learning of the courts of the Mughals and the Nizams of Hyderabad/Golconda or Oudh combined, as well as being a trading hub for Zahindi spices, perhaps even with contacts to as far away as Sufhang.

Mahasarpa is Angkor with snakes, while Naga is clearly Nepal/Bhutan/Tibet with psionic Gurkhas (a frightening thought for any enemy facing them! Shocked

).

The horse nomads might well be Oerids or Bakluni on the southern edge of the northern steppes (and perhaps also a vassal/client state of the Celestial Imperium, whose sphere of influence might reach to the forested coasts on the western side of the mountains west of Zahind).

So in short - it needs a lot of work, but could be an interesting addition to the Oerth.

P.

Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:59 pm

Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:36 pm

I think that the yuan ti/naga curse fits Mahasarpa much better than it does the Olman. I agree that Greyhawk has a vast abundance of magical disasters befalling nations and peoples right and left.

I'd be inclined to say that the supposed curse of the Olman was not at all, but rather an infiltration/invasion by the Yuan ti of Zahind. But then I'm of the group that is not happy with the canon background for the Olman anyway.

IMHO, the main weakness of the Mahasarpa campaign is that its deliberately designed as an adaptation of the Rokugan style rules set to a different asian culture. So it uses those nation/clan/subraces things which I don't like at all.

If I were to use this, which it certainly an intriguing idea, I'd probably do quite a bit of revision to both the supplement and the olman, as I prefer my greyhawk races to be less of a direct clone of real world ones than either of these two manage.

Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:31 am

I spent some of the weekend messing about this with. I've ended up sticking the states of Mahasarpa into the western part of the Zahindi coast and filling out the section between that and the Amedio with the states of Mulwar, Jahind and Changar from Erik Mona's Bounds of the Oerth piece (posted to the old Greytalk/AOL boards years ago). I rejigged the arrangement of the states so that Zardula was bordering the Suel Imperium and Bhakulla was bordering the Kalaraj Dominions.

In my take, Zardula was razed from the face of the Oerth by the Suel in a kind of Punic War between Mahanaga and the Imperium (the southerners started it - crossing the mountains with an army backed by elephants and destroying a few Suel armies before being comprehensively defeated), while Mahanaga itself was sacked and cursed by the Suel (sort of magical sowing the ground with salt). That triggered the collapse of the empire into the successor states we see.

While the men fought among themselves, the jungle overgrew the shattered cities and their farm land and slowly filled up with fell creatures like Yuan-ti. I actually see the Y-t's coming west rather than vice versa. Or perhaps they were indigenous to that entire belt of jungle until the humans arrived and started making trouble for them?

I've adapted the characteristics of the different kingdoms a little. Gandarva is now hard against the ruins of Mahasarpa - so I moved the scouts and fiend hunters from Bhalluka to there. Bhalluka is still martial and defendy - but now has to fight off the advances of the Kalarajan armies attempting to extend their mainland dominions.

Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:37 am

I haven't read through the whole web enhancement yet but the historical precedence of all seven kingdoms being broken apart by the origin of the Yuan-ti seems pretty weak as you guys have already stated. This being the history of one of the city-states seems to fit the area quite well though. I also like the idea of the Olman being the main people of the eastern area and perhaps being driven eastward by the Yuan-ti.

Also, the Naga sound to me like they should be related to the Baklunish. It just seems to fit really well. This would also make sense if the Invoked Devastation was the main reason for some of the Baklunish to flee to the mountains to the south (Naga now), some to the Dramij (Komal), and many more to the northeast (Ekbir).

I think Mahasarpa (I really dislike that name!) could be a good basis for a the interim cultures that formed during the historical interactions between the Baklunish and the asian culture to the west/SW (Nippon/Celestial Imperium).

Just a few thoughts.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:50 am

I'd say the Naga (that name's gotta go too) are more Sufhengi in flavour, while the nomads on the steppes sound like proto-Oeridians or western cousins of the Paynims (Bakluni)

That said - if you locate Naga near the 5 way mountain junction at the western end of the Suloise basin/northwest corner of Zahind you could see how it might have been a point for the exchange of ideas between Sufheng (the Celestial Imperium), Zahind, the Baklunish lands and the Suloise Imperium (hence - as suggested by Erik Mona in his old Bounds of the Oerth article - we see how the mind over matter style of monk might have come to both the Bakluni and the Suel out of the west (and from thence into the Flanaess after the Rain of Colourless Fire).

Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:09 am

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Xan Yae and Zuoken with their dai'shon wuxia-type stuff must have come from somewhere and this seems like a perfect spot to place it's origins. I agree that the horse nomads (a society that would be much more likely to survive the Invoked Devastation intact) seems a logical choice to inhabitant a huge area of steppes and plains. I kinda see the differences between the nomads and what was the Baklunish Empire as comparable to China and the Mongols. With the Invoked Devastation you have the forming of Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit and Ket as the remnants migrate east. You have some of the nomads now in the Flanaess coming at a later time ala "the Golden Horde".

But there has to be a reason for them to stick it out in the Flanaess and not migrate back after the destruction of the Suel. Perhaps the same reason that the Oeridians migrate to the east? I would also like to see something similar to the Persian empire but this might be better suited to the far north, perhaps the western edge of the Dramij. I can very easily see a Persian society evolving from such an area that has so many competing cultures coming together....Oeridians anyone?

The Suel/Scarlet Brotherhood connection is a little bit problematic because I am not sure if their kung fu stuff was being used back then but instead a more recent development. I don't know if there was a definitive canon answer after the debacle of Fate of Istus.

Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:03 am

Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:17 am

(I like all the points you have above, Woesinger, my remaining confusion with the area is how the Oeridians fit in and why they moved all the way across Oerik seemingly peacefully only to come into conflict with the Flan at a later time.)

Also I kinda touched on it briefly but considering how different the Suel are and how long they prospered (c. -5500 CY) how is it that they never conquered Zahind?

My thoughts on this are at least partially stated on WotC thread about the spellweavers but I am also thinking it would make sense for the primary area of Yuan-ti domination to be the area of the Amedio closest to the Suel and at the periphery of Zahind.

This gives a couple of canon explanations if you take the Shackled City adventures and place them into Greyhawk like Erik Mona has done. First we have Shatterhorn which was once a place of worship for Mershaulk and a Yuan-ti city, we have the Scarlet Brotherhood saying the Olman were the cause of the Yuan-ti, and we have the Mahasarpa background.

I think the Yuan-ti make a pretty good buffer between the Suel and Zahind. It also gives a much better location for the Olman city that was lost to the Yuan-ti then Hepmonaland. In fact I really am inclined to have the Touv be the original inhabitants of Hepmonaland and having their conflict occur with the Olman as they were moving eastward to get away from the Yuan-ti. It just seems to make more sense than the opposite which is as it is presented in SB.

So by the time the Suel get around to becoming the evil expansionists that they are they're stymied by the mountains and inhospitable jungles filled with Yuan-ti. And on the other side lie the Baklunish both the nomads and the more settled Baklunish both to their north and west which are much more accessible. They do have some Suel that bother exploring to the east and southeast but they never go in large numbers nor find much worth conquering.

Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:48 am

Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:43 pm

Great thread guys.

As to the Touv and Anakeris, I too have that view of their origins. In fact I recall reading something, way back long ago online about the Suel invading Anakeris or the other way around? It could've just been trade, I forget.

Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:18 pm

I agree with the Anakeris bit, I forgot where I first heard that. I think it might have been something from Roger Moore on the Greytalk or AOL stuff.

Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:23 pm

Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:33 pm

Hmmm....so when Erik says southern portion of the Flanaess does he mean directly south of the current Sea of Dust and past the mountains?

If thats the case do we assume the Suel controlled a much large area then what the Sea of Dust encompasses currently?

A little confusing to me, but interesting.

Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:45 pm

The southern Flanaess would be the Tilva lands, Vast Swamp and by latitude the Hold of the Sea Princes. The Flanaess stops at the Hellfurnaces.

P.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:07 am

As far as the Touv goes with relation to the Suel it would go a long way to explaining someone like Ankhin Taskerhill in Cauldron.

For those that don't have the Dungeon adventures, Ankhin is basically a Cauldron noble who looks similar to my idea of a Touv and has a very Flanaess-sounding surname. My first thought was that he is probably the descendent of a freed slave that probably lived in Cauldron way in the past. His surname could simply be something that sounded good when he was originally freed.

The taking of a surname was a common occurence in the US during and after the Civil War, in many cases the name was simply very well known historically or something that sounded pleasing to those that had previously been enslaved in the South.

Any information on the historical timeline of the Sea Princes anywhere? Another thing that bothered me about this area was that the SCAP says Sasserine is a founded city before Surabar decides to make his way to Redgorge which presents a slew of problems, at least for my idea of Greyhawk. [This would mean that Sasserine is a town around -120 CY.]

Currently I see Surabar making his way up from the south (one of the Zahind city-states or nations) to found Redgorge. [The name is probably a Common translation of whatever the Zahindi word for Redgorge is.] The city-state should probably be whichever one is the most Good, since Nidrama, the celestial being that finds him, is looking for someone to stop the demon incursions from the Demonskar.

Eventually they find the remnants of Cauldron, an old Suel mining camp, trading camp that was left over pretty much intact from the Rain of Colorless Fire. Surabar thinks the dormant volcano would be much more easily defendable than Redgorge and moves a large contigent into the former Suel city.

Currently I am thinking Sasserine is simply a pirate/smugglers outpost that starts to become more of a true port town as the new settlers of Cauldron try to set up a more permenant trade route to the coast and on to the nascent Hold of the Sea Princes (Which is probably more realistically a single sea pirate that claims that area close to the Amedio). [I am thinking previously they relied on Surabar's magic to transport trade goods back and forth from Zahind and Redgorge?]

Anyway just a few more thoughts, it would be nice to for a complete picture of the area blending in the yuan-ti, dakon, Olman, Touv, Zahindi etc.

Thu Jan 26, 2006 4:28 pm

Check out Samwise's timelines of the Sheldomar. They're consistant with canon as far as I can see.
Also - from the background to the Duchy of Berghof that Stu Kerrigan and I did up for the LG Wizards website, we suggested that the founders of Berghof would have travelled over the Pass of Adlerweg (mentioned in The Gauntlet and The Sentinel) and founded sea ports on the shores of Jeklea Bay within about a century of the Rain of Colourless Fire. So it's possible that this was Sasserine or that Sasserine was a nearby settlement.

P.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:13 pm

Sasserine would be on the opposite side of the bay from the Sea Princes, I am pretty sure it is on those maps that Dungeon put out but I haven't looked at them recently, so I forget the exact placing.

I also believe there was some descrepancy between where Cauldron was put in relation to Sasserine from the Dungeon adventures and where they ended up on the maps of Greyhawk (Dungeon magazine's version), it probably had to do with the fact that the maps were of the Flanaess and generally wouldn't show enough of the Amedio for Cauldron and Sasserine to be placed correctly in relation to each other.

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:09 am

Sorry for taking this thread on a tangent....

As you know my Oerthography was in a boggle. Happy

So what do think of the LGG entry of "longish faced men" in and around Lake Aaqal? Vaati?

Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:14 am