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    Canonfire :: View topic - Vecna's Ineffable Variorum
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    Vecna's Ineffable Variorum
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:34 am  
    Vecna's Ineffable Variorum

    Hi folks,

    I stumbled on some old notes of mine on the Dragon Magazine #225 article on the spell books of Vecna, Iggwilv, and Acererak, by Robert S. Mullin.

    At this particular moment I have no access to the magazine. Could someone verify please that Mullin interpreted Vecna to be Suelite?

    Has anyone worked on the Variorum? It is rather a peculiar tome. Has anyone interpreted what "variorum" could possibly mean? Is it a variorum because it contains sections written by different persons? Or is it a variorum because it has variant contents (i.e. it is both a spell book and describes events 200 years prior to cataclysms)? The Webster online dictionary indicates that the first interpretation is true. However, has anyone ever read a variorum, to enlighten me of the exact meaning of the word variorum?

    Thank you,

    tz
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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:14 am  

    Ok I found it. The article may be found here Greyhawk Grimoires.
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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:40 am  
    Re: Vecna's Ineffable Variorum

    Tzelios wrote:
    Hi folks,

    However, has anyone ever read a variorum, to enlighten me of the exact meaning of the word variorum?

    tz



    Editiones cum notis variorum were once a staple of classical scholarship. The form of the "variorum" with which I am familiar generally contained the text of an ancient poem or similar work, which then had an attached commentary excerpting the various things that different scholars had said about each line, listed one after another, and attributed to the particular scholars in question. The form went out of fashion on the grounds of

    a) unoriginality (too many people published "commentaries" which were really only collections of what previous scholars had said, without adding any illumination or criticism of their own) and

    b) bulk (because gathering together what a slew of scholars has said about every single bit of something makes for a very long book).

    A very late example of the genre (which is itself a masterpiece of scholarship in its own right) is E. Fraenkel's edition and commentary of Aeschylus' Agamemnon (Oxford, 1950). More accessible, perhaps, is Alexander Pope's spoof of the form in his Dunciad Variorum, in which the poet provides his own poem with a blizzard of footnotes composed by invented scholars and academics.
    GreySage

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    Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:08 am  
    Re: Vecna's Ineffable Variorum

    Tzelios wrote:
    At this particular moment I have no access to the magazine. Could someone verify please that Mullin interpreted Vecna to be Suelite?


    He said it was likely. It was Robert S. Mullin's preferred theory, and he presented evidence for it, but he didn't state that it was definitely true.

    Quote:
    Is it a variorum because it contains sections written by different persons?


    Based on what Prochytes said, it's probably Vecna's original spellbook plus a collection of extensive commentary by later scholars and mages.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:53 am  

    I would like to thank Prochytes for his informative reply.

    Then Rasgon, the commentaries by non-Vecna authors are in the event section of the Variorum, and possibly in the magical section (in Mullin’s article it is conjectured that the Depth Perception spell may have been written by someone with identical magical script to Vecna’s, thus this someone should have been most likely in the possession of the Hand of Vecna). Actually, all the event section is a commentary, since it is written in Suloise. Or could it possibly be that Vecna had for any reason (for instance, a scholarship in the Suel Empire) started to write the event section in Suloise? The other section, the spell book section, is written in Vecna's magical script. If the Ineffable Variorum is Vecna's original spell book, there exist two possibilities:

    1. Vecna was alive when the book was stolen from him.

    2. Vecna had already given the fight with Kas, and his spirit was roaming the material plane (per the 1e DMG entry) when the book was recovered.

    Between the two possibilities only the first makes sense, given that established Greyhawk lore places the fight with Kas in early Keoland history, i.e. after the cataclysms. (For those not familiar with Mullin’s Dragon Magazine article, the event section of the Variorum describes in Suloise events until 200 years before the cataclysms.)

    Is this satisfactory Rasgon and all you who read Mullin's article? In the case it is satisfactory, do the following lines explain the discovery of the Variorum in a ruined city of the Sea of Dust?

    Direction1: Long before the Suelite migrants in the years preceding the Twin Cataclysms, the Suel Empire sponsored expeditions for the exploration of the unknown lands east of the Cystalmists. Those operations run smoothly, with pleasing reports of fertile lands, commercial opportunities, and the peaceful Flan natives that would offer limited resistance, until one adventuring team never returned. A stronger team was organized to track the disappeared one, and it also never returned. It was obvious that a formidable adversary was encountered, and consequently Mages of Power were involved. The ensuing battle with the lich-king was in favor of the Suelite mages, since their power at that time was at height. Vecna eluded death but his palace was sacked and the Variorum taken.

    What I do not like in the above paragraph is that there does not seem to be implied any retribution of Vecna in canon or otherwise Greyhawk material for such a defeat by the Mages of Power. In fact, throughout published Greyhawk lore, it is evident that Vecna never retrieved the tome in the period of at least 300 years before his battle with Kas (or showed any interest to gather the tome at any time). If he had so he would had completed the last spell of the Variorum, and he would definitely had added commentaries of his own in the event section of the tome. But the event section contains only happenings in the Suel Empire, otherwise Mullin would not have arrived to the conclusion that Vecna was Suelite.

    Direction2: Vecna wrote the Variorum during his tutelage or tenure in the conclaves of the Mages of Power. An academic dispute among Vecna and his colleagues that escalated to magical fight interrupted Vecna from completing the Variorum and forced him to return to his kingdom in haste leaving behind the tome. The Variorum was subsequently expanded by Suelite mages and scholars.

    What I do not like in the above second direction is that no Suel lich completed the last spell for at least 300 years.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:15 am  

    Anyone care to contribute to the subject? I thought Vecna's story was kinda hot Confused
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:55 am  

    Tzelios, what exactly is a Mage of Power.

    From what I understand, there were several, they were Suel and the last one punched a hole through the mountains into Keoland.

    But is there more than that? Is that overly restrictive?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 pm  

    hmmm... good question Wolfsire, the definition I have always used for "Mage of Power" is "wizard capable of preforming magic beyond the scope of the rules".
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:10 pm  

    There were Baklunish mages of power too. Cwslyclgh's definition is probably the best.
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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:57 am  

    Why not, the definition of the Mage of Power you provided is very good. It is in line with Oerth's fading magic concept, per the '83 boxed set. So once upon a time there exixted mages with greater power than present day mages. So I assume these Mages of Power were capable to cast more powerful spells or to attain higher levels in their class easier than present day mages. The material mentions only Suel power mages, but I find reasonable that there got to exist Baklunish Mages of Power to match the story of the Twin Cataclysms. Beautiful so far.

    How do we proceed with the directions I posted previously? Is it reasonable that Vecna visited the Suel to exchange magical knowledge? Then this is how he lost his spell book. Would you suggest any better alternative?
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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:53 am  

    Not sure how he lost the spell book, but it does seem very reasonable to me that I would visit the Suel, at least incognito. He would not want to pass up on the opportunity to compare magic.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:49 pm  
    Lost

    Well, the "lost the spellbook," theory is a lot easier to swallow if a) he had other copies and didnt care, or b) he became so powerful that it was not a concern. He did become a god after all, and as far as I know, isnt too worried about his hand and his eye. If he was, he is the god of secrets.

    Also, maybe there is some unlisted curse that he takes glee in seeing perpetrated on the unwitting.
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    Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:35 pm  

    Vecna's Ineffable Variorum is a trick, brought to you by someone. The depth perception spell marks this as a ruse. Either Vecna wants people to know this is "his spellbook" for some reason (likely having to do with the unfinished spell) or someone else does , though for reasons less clear. Either way, the depth perception spell is the clue. Useless to Vecna prior to his death, the development of this spell by a later owner who happens to be missing an eye, but has the Hand is weak. And the idea that Vecna "saw into the future" and determined he might need this spell but didn't delve deeper to see the possibility of his own death, or at least that his own generalwould be the betrayer kinda falls flat.

    So, what's Vecna's game here?

    Or is someone playing at being Vecna, and to what end?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:07 am  

    May be Free-city-assassin is right. May be the whole situation is plotted. If we follow this line of thought, then the plot may have been set by Keoland's administrators or even the Silent Ones. We know that these people already did things to cover early Keoland history by banning the Chronicle of Secret Times by Uhas of Neheli. It seems it is not hard to forge Vecna's magical script, since these guys had in their possession Vecna's magical writings. The whole forgery project would not be that simple. The Variorum is a piece of exquisite craftsmanship, still in their capabilities. If we follow this line thought, then it is not needed for the book to be left in Sea of Death. The adventurers who recovered the tome may well also be in the plot.

    To tell the truth, the first thing I thought when reading the entry on the Variorum is that it was written by Vecna. I imagined that Vecna was writing the book when Kas entered his laboratory to attack him. Then this explains the last incomplete spell of the tome. But isn't it too obvious? It must not be true, by the fact that Vecna fought with Kas centuries later. One thing, is certain: Mullin's article was taken into account upon compilation of Vecna's story in LGG and LGJ, by the repetitive use of Uha's Chronicle of Secret Times in the material which is firstly encountered in Mullin's article.
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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:30 am  

    One get around would be to say it was Vecna's originally and that the unfinished spell was one he was working on when he fell. It need not necessarily be the last spell in the book - but it could be the last scribed by Vecna himself.

    After Vecna's fall,the book was taken by his surviving disciples who revered it as the work of their lord and master, but also added additional rites, spells and rituals, including the depth perception spell (handy for extremely devout cultists who insisted on putting out one eye).

    P.


    Last edited by Woesinger on Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:08 am  

    Tzelios wrote:
    the repetitive use of Uha's Chronicle of Secret Times in the material which is firstly encountered in Mullin's article.


    Uhas of Neheli was first mentioned in Greyhawk Adventures and his Chronicle of Secret Times appeared first in Vecna Lives.
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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:51 pm  

    It occurs to me that Vecna would have had to have lost his eye well before his fight with Kas... for the simple reason that Lich's do not have eyes, just glowing points of light in thier sockets. (one could conjecture that the reason Vecna's hand and eye had survived was because he had lost them at a time previous to the fight, and they were sealed away someplace for safe keeping).

    this is true for the 3e version of the eye at least as it is the mumified remains of vecna's actual eye.

    the 1e eye, was a magical agate which needed to be placed in the eye socket... which leads to another interesting question... what if the Eye of Vecna wasn't at all.. what iof it was an older artifact that Vecna simply aquired, and which has in turn aquired his name as it's most famous possessor, and now ages later people mistakenly believe that the eye realy was physically his?
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:20 pm  

    Not all liches are completely skeletal. A lich can look like a fully fleshed corpse.

    But, of course, your main point is well taken: liches don't need eyes to see. Vecna wouldn't need a spell to give him binocular vision either before or after he lost his eye.
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    Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:31 pm  

    Quote:
    Not all liches are completely skeletal. A lich can look like a fully fleshed corpse.
    it could be argued that even other-wise fully fleshed liches lack eyes, as the monster descriptions of them in all 3 editions call attention to the lack of eyes and glowing points of light in empty sockets thing, even after giving discriptions of them looking much like a wight or mummy, certainly leading one to believe that they were at least mostly fleshed.

    there is a posibility that vecna could have lost an eye as a mortal, and been developing the spell then... although I think it unlikely.
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    Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:31 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Uhas of Neheli was first mentioned in Greyhawk Adventures and his Chronicle of Secret Times appeared first in Vecna Lives.


    Thank you..(sad for my self)
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    Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:43 am  

    Woesinger, what a nice idea the devoted Vecna cultrists to pull out their eye!!

    cwslyclgh, you made some really interesting points.

    I will return, as soon as I review the rules. Talk to you soon (Rasgon as well),

    tz
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    Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:44 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    it could be argued that even other-wise fully fleshed liches lack eyes, as the monster descriptions of them in all 3 editions call attention to the lack of eyes and glowing points of light in empty sockets thing, even after giving discriptions of them looking much like a wight or mummy, certainly leading one to believe that they were at least mostly fleshed.


    Yeah, that would be a valid argument, but I always took the descriptions as being descriptive rather than proscriptive - that is, they tell us how a lich might look rather than how they have to look. I'm not aware that gouging one's eyes out is part of the ceremony of transformation.

    Illustrations of Vecna always show him with an eye.
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    Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:57 am  

    There is this Nerull cleric in City of Hawks Gord novel, called Colvetis Pol, who in the story was ready to achieve lichdom and he was around 2 to 3 hundred years old. While reading the novel I pictured that by the time he would have become lich he would not be skeletal at all. I guess time passing a lich becomes more and more skeletal. There is this other example of a lich, the Mage of the Vale, who has taken precautions in order not to look like undead. On the other extreme it is impossible to disregard the Monster Manuals. I checked the 1e MM and the lich monster is also depicted completely skeletal with lights in the eye sockets. It seems like for an old lich the skeletal form is the most likely. Then regarding Vecna, the first reference on him in '76 Eldritch Wizardry is quite enlightening. It is very strongly implied that the Eye and Hand of Vecna survived the battle with Kas, so they were in place when the fight was given, which rather throws off the idea that Vecna lost his body organs prior to the battle. But is this what is implied in 3e game rules as well in the description of these artifacts?
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    Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:11 pm  

    actually EW states
    Quote:
    The eye may or may not have
    originally belonged to Vecna...
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    Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:48 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    actually EW states
    Quote:
    The eye may or may not have
    originally belonged to Vecna...


    Correct. cwslyclgh, could you please then join all your points to a full theory?

    I wish Samwise would join the thread; he is the specialist on Vecna.

    In any case, do we agree that the artifacts were with Vecna upon his battle with Kas?

    I also read Samwise's The Hand and Eye of Vecna and there exists something I was expecting to find. The text reads that "Knights of the Darkwatch are founded in an attempt to eliminate any trace of Vecna's ancient empire and any evidence of Neheli dealings with him." I am not sure how close to canon is the phrase, so I will review more Vecna stuff. In case the phrase is canon, we have more evidence that Keoland Kingdom did things to conceal its early history. So, together with the banning of the Chronicle of Secret Times, another thing that Keoland did was to invent Vecna's Ineffable Variorum and "place" it in the Sea of Dust.
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    Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:25 pm  

    Tzelios wrote:
    There is this other example of a lich, the Mage of the Vale, who has taken precautions in order not to look like undead.


    But he's a shade, not a lich. He's not undead at all.
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    Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:19 pm  

    Having been invoked . . .

    The Hand and the Eye are from Vecna, relics surviving from his body. While this might be left uncertain previously, it is rather effectively established by both Vecna's appearance and appellation of "The Maimed Lord" in the Vecna series adventures.

    The relationship of the Darkwatch to Vecna is never explicitly stated in canon. That essay, like my others on Sheldomar history, was developed in conjunction with Gary Holian. While not stated, that is what is meant by what is otherwise only suggested.
    With that in mind, the last thing the Silent Ones or Darkwatch would do is invent something like the Variorum. They suppress even the use of Vecna's name, lest it invoke him, or suggest the atrocities committed by his relics.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:18 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Having been invoked . . .

    The Hand and the Eye are from Vecna, relics surviving from his body. While this might be left uncertain previously, it is rather effectively established by both Vecna's appearance and appellation of "The Maimed Lord" in the Vecna series adventures.

    The relationship of the Darkwatch to Vecna is never explicitly stated in canon. That essay, like my others on Sheldomar history, was developed in conjunction with Gary Holian. While not stated, that is what is meant by what is otherwise only suggested.
    With that in mind, the last thing the Silent Ones or Darkwatch would do is invent something like the Variorum. They suppress even the use of Vecna's name, lest it invoke him, or suggest the atrocities committed by his relics.


    Thanks for joining us Samwise.

    So what is your opinion on the discovery of the Variorum in Sea of Dust, and the Suloise script in its event section describing events more than 200 years before the Twin Cataclysms?
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:51 am  

    Not a clue.
    I don't recall the article and haven't dug it out.
    If I had to give a reason, I'd say someone just added it later.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:04 am  

    Hey Tzelios, Smile

    I think there are several figures in GH whose essence has propagated through time/dimensionally. The self-same figure appears at divergent times and places, sometimes even conflicting times and places. Whatever the case, each iteration of the individual is unique but drawn from the same root.

    Vecna is evidently one such personage. He has a unique existence within the Flanaess but also an existence in the latter days of the Suel Imperium.

    Iggwilv is another such entity.

    To my knowledge, I think, none of these iterative entities have ever confronted each other. The question then remains whether the iterations have a hyper-awareness of each other or are truly independent.

    For an example of independent iterations (aka time-variants) see the Marvel Comics villian Doctor Doom. Dr. Doom exists in the present. In the distant past, he exists as Rama-Tut. In the far future, he exists as Kang the Conqueror. While the official Marvel history has since mucked up the waters (natch), the three were at one time identified as the same individual. Be that as it may.

    I postulate Vecna is a GH version of Dr. Doom in this sense. Thus, the "Flan Vecna" and the "Suel Vecna" do not need to be reconciled or a choice made between the two. Both are correct.

    This said, continuing to use the Dr. Doom example, the "original" of any iterative entity will be invariably more "powerful" than any of its iterations should the iterations come into conflict. Thus, there may yet be a point to determing which Vecna is the original.

    Great Dr. Doom quote -
    Dr. Doom: "They don't call me the most dangerous man alive for nothing."
    Daredevil: "You mean they pay you?"
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:26 pm  

    Quote:
    For an example of independent iterations (aka time-variants) see the Marvel Comics villian Doctor Doom. Dr. Doom exists in the present. In the distant past, he exists as Rama-Tut. In the far future, he exists as Kang the Conqueror. While the official Marvel history has since mucked up the waters (natch), the three were at one time identified as the same individual. Be that as it may.
    I am pretty sure that the man who becomes Immortus/kang/rama-tut is a decendednt of Reed Richards and not Victor von Doom... but I like the idea of you analogy none the less...

    (one of my favorite Doom moments actually includes Kang, in the secret wars Kang and Doom are in a struggle for leadership of the villians, but what nobody knows is that Doom has reporogarmed ultron and reactivated him after galactus sucked all of his energy out... at the climatic moment of Doom and Kang's confrontation, doom says simply:

    "Ultron disintegrate Kang." and walks off...)
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:56 pm  

    Or plain old Flan Vecna travelled over the mountains to the Suel Imperium, learned magical lore from the Mages of Power and kept notes in Suloise. It's not like he wasn't aware the Imperium existed or that it was a million miles away.

    And we needn't assume that the learning was one way - the Suel mages may have learned something of the art of becoming a lich from Vecna, who'd have in turn been wise in the necromantic lore of the Ur Flan. Along with the lore of the Spellweavers (see the Shackled City stuff), Vecna might have been influential in pushing the Imperium towards the evil that eventually consumed it.

    Alternatively, the book's original owner was Suel and Vecna took it from his cold (or crispy warm) dead hand. Hence also - the fact it's a Variorum.

    As to why it's in the Sea of Dust, perhaps it autoteleported back there or some of those previously mentioned Vecna Cultists brought it back there hoping to find something relics of Vecna buried in the ruins of the Imperium and mentioned in the Variorum. They died, the book was lost until some enterprising Dustdigger unearthed it and brought it back to blight the Sheldomar.

    P.
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    Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:18 pm  

    Hi folks,

    As the author of the article in question, I thought I'd chime in with a couple comments on the subject.

    First, and perhaps most importantly, is to keep in mind WHEN the article was published in relation to current, accepted canon. At the time of its publication, Vecna's precise origins and nationality were not yet established in official canon, so essentially, I had to make up material on the fly (so to speak). As such, when Vecna's place in official canon was established, my article was largely ignored, so it should come as no surprise that there are conflicts. Still, I am enjoying all of your ideas for reconciling my work with current canon. Definitely good stuff.

    The second point I'd like to make involves my use of the word "variorum." To be precise, I did not intend it to be taken literally; rather, I was going for alliteration. But if you folks want to take it literally, be my guest. As mentioned, nothing about the book is set in stone, and this thread has been an interesting read. Keep up the good work!

    -RSM
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