This honorific is applied to the Marchioness of Sterich in the LGG. Is there any canon reference to what this "Great Western Gate" is? If not, does anyone have any non canon ideas?
It seems to me that it would generally be the sort of thing applying to a pass or something of that sort. But I am not aware of a pass significant enough to justify a specific title existing between Sterich and the Dry Steppes (or anywhere else). If such a pass does exist, it would have interesting implications, I would think.
The other option would be something more fantasy, but there is nothing to indicate that, for sure.
This honorific is applied to the Marchioness of Sterich in the LGG. Is there any canon reference to what this "Great Western Gate" is? If not, does anyone have any non canon ideas?
I assume it refers to Thornward. It isn't west of Sterich, but it's the gate to the Baklunish West.
It makes sense as the Great western Gate, but does not explain why the Margrave of Sterich would hold that title. You'd think the Margrave of Bissel or some Gran March lord would if that were the case.
I think in Samwise's Grand Sheldomar Timeline, many nobles were moved from the north were forcibly removed to Sterich sometime after the first Keogh king. Maybe it is a title hanging round since then.
It could be a hereditary hangover from the days of Imperial Keoland, when it dominated Ket and Bissel.
An analog in the real world is the title of King of Jerusalem, which the Luisignan kings of Cyprus clung onto for centuries after the city fell to Saladin.
The Keoish were turfed out of Bissel by Furyondy in the Short War (if I recall my western history correctly). Some ancestor of the Earls of Sterich might have been dispossessed at this time, but hung onto the title. It is a rather cool title after all...
This honorific is applied to the Marchioness of Sterich in the LGG. Is there any canon reference to what this "Great Western Gate" is? If not, does anyone have any non canon ideas?
In actual occult lore, The Great Western gate is a portal between dimensions or realities that may a) be traversed by those with sufficient enlightenment or b) may be accidentally traversed by the unenlightened, who are then trapped, the worst case scenario involving being trapped between dimensions or realities in an extra-dimensiona, oubliette. The Great Western Gate is, despite its name, not entirely fixed in position. It is subject to phases, when it is more present or less present. In its stronger phase, it creates eddies that can more easily trap the unwary. The Great Western Gate can also be summoned from its usual location for brief periods of time by the enlightened, however, this can again cause eddies that can be dangerous. There are a few books that I am aware of that take the Great Western Gate as their subject. Most involve strange disappearances. In the lore, the Great Western Gate is located somewhere in the American Midwest or West. While there are similarities with Bermuda Triangle lore, the Great Western Gate is more purely occult, being divorced from any talk of extraterresterials or sunken Atlantis. Back in the day, it was one of may favorite occult reads.
In Sterich, I see no obvious "gate," particularly one that could be called "great." I'd riff off the Great Western Gate described above.
In canon, two threads lend themselves to this interpretation. First, it is known that the area of the Rushmoors to Sterich have seen Far Realm incursions more than any other areas of the Flanaess. This canon is explored in several Dungeon adventures. Second, there is mention of the Cerulean Order (or is it the Topaz Order?) in the Book of Madness that fights other-dimensional abberations and is associated with/part of/allied with the Church of Pelor (or St. Cuthbert?). Sorry about the last inspecific reference but I do not have the Book of Madness close to hand. In either case, adding the occult concept of the Great Western Gate would be a small step, IMO. _________________ GVD
In actual occult lore, The Great Western gate is a portal between dimensions or realities that may a) be traversed by those with sufficient enlightenment or b) may be accidentally traversed by the unenlightened, who are then trapped, the worst case scenario involving being trapped between dimensions or realities in an extra-dimensiona, oubliette.
Interesting. I'd go with that; that it's an occult title originally bestowed by apprentices of Slerotin.
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First, it is known that the area of the Rushmoors to Sterich have seen Far Realm incursions more than any other areas of the Flanaess.
There's been some problems with the Abyss, too.
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Second, there is mention of the Cerulean Order (or is it the Topaz Order?) in the Book of Madness that fights other-dimensional abberations and is associated with/part of/allied with the Church of Pelor (or St. Cuthbert?).
The Society of the Sanctified Mind is associated with St. Cuthbert. The Holy Order of the Supernal Topaz Defenders is associated with Heironeous.
Actually, it could be that the title belongs to the Marchioness in her own right, not to the Margraves of Sterich. Something bestowed by the druids, perhaps? Sterich (like Geoff) is supposed to be a relative stronghold of the Old Faith. Resbin is specifically mentioned as being dark skinned, which could indicate relatively pure Flan blood, and is a pretty powerful sorceress.
Main problem with that idea is, as a published title, its presumably actually used officially. I'm not convinced that an Old Faith bestowed occult title would actually be acknowledged by heralds and the like. Though its certainly not impossible. This is a magical world, after all. Titles of magical origin are real..
Well, if history is any guide, nobles often claimed titles that were bestowed in ages past simply because they were bestowed in ages past. The older the better. Often their origins were forgotten, or known only to the most dedicated sages. It is plausible.
I think that she is, in the Istvin Arc in Dungeon, a Olmani is she not, or am I confusing adventures?
Someone mentioned that, but I missed that reference if so. Although I think I'm missing one of those Istivin stories (the one that didn't come with part of the map). I didn't like the story at all, so I didn't bother picking up the other installment.
If, as Samwise says, the Olmani are widely despised I think it would be a more than major big deal to have an extremely important noble married to one. Not to mention actually holding power in his absence. Sterich is not a small territory...
Well, the usefulness of the Dungeon series depends upon wheather or not you are using it as canon. IMC we are, as it is the only GH we are likely to get.
However, I will say this about the Dungeon and Dragon articles of late... they keep plucking unpublished ideas from the GM project right out of the ether. They need to stop.
Anyway, back on point, the adventures are better as source material than as game play, IMO. I have found most of that to fit rather well. The hook within the Istvin series is that no one locally really knows where she is from. This is extremely plausible considering the state of technology and low magic. The number of stories of the Olman are probably high, the number of direct contacts is probably low.
Well, I don't have a problem with Dungeon and Dragon articles as canon. I just happen to strongly dislike this particular story.
I find it ludicrous to state that Istivin woul have been deliberately moved off the river. That's pretty close to insane. The cost of trade would skyrocket just by having to move goods half a day overland to the Davish, not to mention the reduced access to fresh water and so on.
Beyond that, I wasn't particularly impressed with the idea of a demon possessing the city or drow mucking around it. I think something more original and interesting could have been made of the situation.
I am not arguing the story, though the moving of the city may have more of a factual/historical basis than one might assume. Ask New Orleans, there are some good reasons to be away from the river (though the story didnt really use them).
Also, in preindustrial societies, the material goods held so much more value than that of labor or animal labor, the 1/2 day trip is really not that much of a problem. Remember, they were unloading them by hand and moving them by mule, cart, or horse anyway. A few more hours was of little consequence. It is only in modern times, when the materials have nearly no value, that the labor becomes a consequence.
However, ignore the story, or sum it up in a few lines (10 maybe) and it is just a useful (to me) as the whole adventure series.
The relative scarcity of labor has a strong effect on that. And even in flood plains (no indication Sterich is one, btw), people tended to live on the river anyway. They just build to account for being flooded.
Although the cost of materials does tend to outweigh the cost of labor, labor costs are not negligible. By putting the city off the river, you now need 1) docks and storage facilities in the town. 2) men and beasts to haul the goods to the city itself (with places for them to live). 3) Storage facilities in the city.
And that completely ignores the health and sanitation value of being on the river, in terms of water access, fishing opportunities, and the ability to wash waste down to someone else. Its very hot in sterich in the summer. A lot of water would be quite helpful.
Anyway, its not a big deal. I just put the city back on the river. Problem solved.
Well, we just went through this discussion for Shiboleth, and the result was differnt. Labor is a factor, but compared to materials it is not very important. Even today, look at the cost of labor in China or other countries.
Shiboleth is a ways frm the river and is set on a hill overlooking the marsh/river, with the transit assumed. I dont actually remember that part of the Istvin adventure.
How far is Shiboleth from the river? I don't mean it needs to be literally on the river, as the defensive value of a hill *may* prove more valuable, especially since Shiboleth was built with warfare in mind. However, it should still be near enough for everyday use of the river, imho. There are very good reasons why cities in the real world end up on rivers rather a lot more than simple chance indicates. And that's pre industrial cities, not just modern ones.
Istivin was built with trade in mind, mainly. Moving 10 miles off the river would need a really compelling reason, imho. The article vaguely refers to 'being safer territory', but its hardly enough of a move to make that likely. Rivers are generally pretty useful for defense and the city as mapped isn't on anything particularly defensible, though the keep itself is on a slight hill. Nor does is show something useful like a tributary that leads down to the Davish.
You give a LOT by not being on the river (certain industries, particularly textiles, benefit from river access as well). Just seems like you need a really good reason to have the city fathers decide to just move away, as the article indicates happened.
Well, since I slammed the demons and drow explanation for Istivin's 'issues', I thought I should post what I thought would be a more interesting story. It also can help explain the Stewardess of the Great Western Gate thing, if we accept it as an occult title...
Istivin is a city that is cursed. Not a magical curse, at least not at first.. Just a plain old "nothing goes right" sort of coincidental curse. The town was founded to exploit the mineral wealth of the Crystalmists, which it has done with some success. Yet this purpose has always brought with it assorted problems, as many folks came to the town to primarily with greed as the motive. Intrigue, politics, and crime have been rife ever since the early days. Wealthy flowed through the city, but corruption and greed made less of it than might have otherwise occurred. The city of Flen prospered rather more by the trade than did Istivin, mainly because of better governance.
War on the western frontier was constant, with a strong chain of border fortresses built by mining wealth maintaining them. In the year 573, powerful giantish forces raided from south and west, causing considerable havoc through out the region. The city itself was not harmed, but trade was shattered and many fortunes lost (and some gained...). A watchful peace reigned in Sterich for a decade after the defeat of King Snurre Iron Belly, the fire giant leader. But the mineral wealth of the mountains became increasingly dangerous to harvest. The city started to fade, despite the friendship between the Margrave and the King. The Ketite invasion of Bissel resulted in a number of battles in which Sterish soldiers suffered heavily. Yet the worst had not yet come to pass.
The army of the Frost Giant King Galmoor swept over the border forts and ravaged the length of Sterich. The city was abandoned, with thousands fleeing eastwards. To preserve the city from the destruction that had been wrought elsewhere, the Marchioness (a powerful sorceress) invoked an ancient Ur Flan ritual to shield the city. A black shell enveloped the empty city, which shifted slightly out of the world to linger, untouched.
When the Margrave lead Sterish and Keoish forces back to liberate the city several years later, the Marchioness reversed the ritual. So, to the surprise of the almost everyone, Istivin was the only thing still standing in the whole land. Refugees began returning to the city as the land was made somewhat safe. Many were transients, staying in the city only long enough to arrange to rebuild old homes in outlying towns and villages. Others were previous inhabitants or their heirs. Many were simply the carrion feeders that follow war and grow fat on others' misery.
Even as the Margrave managed to bring some measure of stability to the borders, intrigue began festering in the city once more. Though the city was intact, its network of trade routes and mines was not. Food riots, corruption, and all manner of profiteering were rampant throughout the city. People were edgy and quick to anger. Squabbles and feuds arose. All in all, the city was poorer than it had ever been.
And the disappearances began.. It is nothing obvious. In fact, it is easy to dismiss altogether. Few cases of clear cut 'vanishing' exist. Many of the folks may have simply left town for better prospects. With so many transients, who can truly say? But when the Margrave himself vanished, folks took notice. Though some claim it is Galmoor's Curse, others say Querchard was the victim of a coup by his wife, or assassins of the Scarlet Brotherhood, or any number of other things. But now folks began to watch out of the corner of their eyes and be a bit more careful at night. A hooded caution settled into their eyes. Something was wrong, but no one knew what.
The Marchioness carried on, granting the city a charter in exchange for a large payment and regular taxes. Rumors boiled in the stews of the city, but they never quite burst into the light of day. The war, which had never truly ended, returned with new force under the command of a powerful Half Troll. The Marchioness, little trusting the bickering nobles, fought back with mercenaries and outlanders. This bred dissension amongst the nobles of the court and further rumors were started..
Years pass, with little done to address the many problems of the city, though the war is somewhat died down, no longer an immediate threat to Istivin itself.
Bitterness and uncertainty lurks in the heart of the city. Marchioness Resbin is getting old and Querchard given up for dead. She has not named an heir, much to everyone's dissatisfaction. Some support Iselline Emondrav Elgarrin, Querchard's niece and the wife of Count Garson of Flen. Some support one or more of the Marchioness' mercenary "lords". Others support different nobles or more radical options. No one trusts a stranger with any real opinions on politics.
The city struggles with itself. The mines of the mountains are still not fully recovered. Raiders are still not fully contained. Unrest, intrigue, and misfortune stalk the land, driving some to banditry. Much of the city is poor: refugees, beggars, war cripples, and so on mingle with the usual urban poor. And through it all, the rumor and legend persist: something evil lurks in Flen.
Strange dreams are not uncommon. Flickering shadows are seen at night. Folks sometimes still disappear. It seems silly enough in the light of day, but few dare disbelieve when the moon is gone and inky blackness blankets the city. Slavers, demons, the Marchioness' evil sorceries, Galmoor's Curse, and hogwash are but a tithe of the explanations that swirl through the city when folks are in their cups. What is the truth? Is there a truth?
The truth is that there is no one explanation for the taint. There are slavers working in the city, ready to sell men north to the giants or south the Scarlet Brotherhood. There are murderous cults that hide in the shambles that is the city. And many people simply move on.
Yet there is a magical effect on the city that is an ill thing. It is the cause of Querchard's disappearance and some fraction of the other issues in Istivin.
When the Marchioness moved the city of Istivin out of this realm, she placed it in a Fading Land, a shadow realm on the borders of Faerie. The Court of Ivory and Horn. The spell should have restored the city untouched when it ended. But it did not.
For the black barrier was not impenetrable. And King Galmoor burst through it, albeit with only a few of his men. And they encountered the denizens of the Court, which did not go well at all. Galmoor and all of his followers were killed, absorbed into the substance of the Fading Land. But not before they killed the King and Queen of Dreams, rulers of the Court of Ivory and Horn. Without a 'proper' King and Queen, the realm did not function properly. The city returned to the real world, but the Gates did not fully close, for only the King and Queen can close them.
So folks at night sometimes slip into the Court and do not return. One of these is the Margrave, Querchard. He stumbled through the misty barrier between the realms and was lost. Caught up in the bizarre rules of the Fading Land, he found himself becoming the King of Dreams; a transformation that has all but erased his human past. Yet still the realm does not function fully, for the Queen is gone. The Wife of the King must, perforce, be the Queen. And she dwells yet in the city of Istivin, shielded by her potent magics.
So the barrier remains pervious. Perhaps the Marchioness could be convinced to join her husband in the Fading Land, were all this information learned. Or the King could be killed and a new royal couple installed. Or the Marchioness could be killed, allowing the King to remarry. Or mayhap some other solution exists, maybe even one that frees Querchard.. But no one knows of the Fading Land except the Marchioness and she understands it not at all and believes it sealed away again.
Or the title could simply be a remnant from the ancient past pre-bissel creation when sterich was the Keoish bulwark against the baklunish west and the other problems are simply because sterich was and still is a frontier land surrounded by unsettled hostile humanoids/ baklunish hordes bent on overunning it.
Simple or complex a case can be made either way...
Well, Sterich was never a bulwark against the Baklunish. Though if the Margraves of Sterich were one of those nobles forcibly transferred from Hochoch, it might be a hereditary title of theirs.
The long story was more a way of addressing the demon possessed city issue, as an example of what I felt was more interesting than another "a demon is hanging out being rude" storyline.
Resbin is specifically mentioned as being dark skinned, which could indicate relatively pure Flan blood, and is a pretty powerful sorceress.
I may be wrong but I thought she was from the far west. The only dark-skinned western race I can recall is the Jacindi (metioned in the Gord novels, I think) although there have been Canonfire articles on the subject. I think she is intended to be totally foreign to the Flanaess.
While most are not, both the Olman and the Flan can be quite dark skinnned. Anyway, I am not aware of a specific attribution to her origin anywhere (except perhaps the Dungeon article, which I haven't read myself).
For my campaign, she is a pure Flan throwback, because that suits what I am doing. I think the Olmani origin apparently given in the magazine is highly improbable. An origin farther afield is more reasonable, but I would think a lot more should have been made of an utterly foreign woman ruling a very significant domain in Keoland during wartime if that was the intention.
Might the solution to the mystery of Istivin's location be that that it was founded on a river, which subsequently changed its course, leaving the city high and dry?
If the river was set slightly off the town, so that the town was walled all around - not unreasonable, given it's pretty much a frontier city - then such a change wouldn't really impact on the fabric of the town so much.
Since then a satellite port called Earl's Landing has grown up on the new river bank.
Wibble has also become something of an internet simming phenomena, with various websites dedicated to the so-called "cult of wibble". The word gained immense popularity when Dr. Samuel Ramsden used it as his trademark sign-off on posts within the Section 47 Star Trek forums community from 2000 onwards. It was quickly adopted by other members of the site and spread to other Trek rpgs. Ramsden was later said to regret creating this particular application of the word, as it had gone out of control, and become more of an irritant than a humouress mark of respect for the net simming legend.
Sure, being off the river by half a mile or a mile (any short distance where the river is still usable on a daily basis) would not be a big deal. But it appeared to be more like 10+ miles on the map in the magazine. That's just too far, pretty much a full day's travel on foot.
The river shifting would be another good reason, though in most cases I am aware of such an occurance caused a significant drop n the prosperity of the town in question. Again, it wasn't so much that having the city off the river is impossible. Its that the article asserts the townsfolk *chose* to abandon a riverside location and found a new town ten miles away.
Don't quote me but I am pretty certain that the Marchioness is specifically stated as being from Zahind. Zahind being the non-Gygax place name for Zindia/Jahind that is mentioned in other sources.
Don't quote me but I am pretty certain that the Marchioness is specifically stated as being from Zahind. Zahind being the non-Gygax place name for Zindia/Jahind that is mentioned in other sources.
Aplogies for quoting you but yeah - that sounds about right to me. It makes her exotic and mysterious without being savage, like the Olman. In terms of Flan culture, there is no reason why the culture of the Zahind couldn't function along similar lines. I don't think there is much in the way of canon on their culture to contradict.
I've finally sussed why the picture of Resbin was shown as being a blonde caucasian - a Disguise Self spell! If it isn't on her spell list, we'd better add it!! Mind you, it would mean that there are a lot of characters with Disguise Self out there. I suppose we can't accuse them of subconcious racism when we have wish artists who put elves and dwarves and men together though, can we? Still I wish artists would make the human characters a bit more racially inclusive.
Sure, being off the river by half a mile or a mile (any short distance where the river is still usable on a daily basis) would not be a big deal. But it appeared to be more like 10+ miles on the map in the magazine. That's just too far, pretty much a full day's travel on foot.
The river shifting would be another good reason, though in most cases I am aware of such an occurance caused a significant drop n the prosperity of the town in question. Again, it wasn't so much that having the city off the river is impossible. Its that the article asserts the townsfolk *chose* to abandon a riverside location and found a new town ten miles away.
Yeah - a significant road trip will add to the cost of transport - people, wagons, fodder for animals etc etc. A town that's purely based on trade would suffer a loss in prosperity, but if it had happened after Istivin had been established as the centre of authority in Sterich, then the town would develop an importance of its own. Trade would come to it because that's where the rulers and the elite (and their gold) are.
If the inhabitants moved to the current site, then there must be a good reason for it - defensibility (isn't there a hill?), to avoid devestating floods (like the floods that result when glacial lakes burst suddenly for example), etc.
Flooding could explain it, though it would have to be pretty traumatic, regular flooding to explain it when one considers how many towns were built on flood plains without being forced to make such a move. There is nothing in any any published material to support the idea of such, though the DM could simply declare it by fiat, of course.
There is a hill on the Istivin map provided in the magazine. But it is just a hill under Krelont Keep, not a significant defensive bonus for the town as a whole. An artificial motte on the old site would seem to be as useful. Defense is certainly the reason given in the article for the move. Sadly, it doesn't explain what makes the current location defensible compared to the original one.
There is a hill on the Istivin map provided in the magazine. But it is just a hill under Krelont Keep, not a significant defensive bonus for the town as a whole. An artificial motte on the old site would seem to be as useful. Defense is certainly the reason given in the article for the move. Sadly, it doesn't explain what makes the current location defensible compared to the original one.
Well - having a keep on a hill does serve as a last redoubt in case of attack. Especially if, the political circumstances of the Giant Troubles aside, you can expect relief from the motherland.
It's very possible though that there might be some magical singificance to the site that might have influenced the move. Perhaps defence was the public excuse?
Small hills like that are certainly useful. Its why they got built alot (mottes). Anyway, this has become (at least on my part) repetitive. Its *possible* to produce a reason to move a river side city to a distance of some ten miles from any water way. Especially in a fantasy world. But it would require a really good reason and the article did not provide any such reason. Or even the suggestion that one might be necessary.
Its really the least of the problems I had with the story and fixing it (either by inventing a justification for the move or simply putting Istivin back on the river) is easily done without affecting the overall story at all.
Its other factors in the story itself that make me disregard it majority of it.
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It makes her exotic and mysterious without being savage, like the Olman. In terms of Flan culture, there is no reason why the culture of the Zahind couldn't function along similar lines. I don't think there is much in the way of canon on their culture to contradict.
