It is known that the Knights of the March were among the Duke of Dorlain's most fanantically religious followers. But what god did they follow?
Of the Suel pantheon, who would they follow? At the time there should not have been much intermingling of gods, as the Keogh and the Oerdians had not been present long. I think Kord, though they would fall into the less common neutral to evil followers. THoughts?
Phaulkon and Kord were the two main soldierly gods of the Suel, presuming you don't extend the pantheon similar to the "Forgotten Gods of teh Suel" posts here on CF. There is no reason the Knights of the March needed to be dedicated to a single god, though. It could be merely that the people who joined the KoM were fanatics, rather than it was a religious organization per se. Still, if you want a single religious focus, I would make them followers of Phaulkon. He is particularly noted for his zealous pursuit of "evil".
The KoM, like the KoW, are generally presented in LGH as an organization dedicated to "good" but who often falls into corrupt or unsavory practices to achieve those "good" ends.
I tend to think of Suel "knights" as being more like byzantine kataphractoi than western knights for battle field purposes (aka they were lance & bow armed heavy cavalry, which would go along with their worship of Phaulkon.
This e-mail response(slightly edited for better clarity ) has a bit to do with the topic.
Anced Math:
I am working on the History of the March, and need to address the
predecessors of the KoW, the Knights of the March. They are desribed as the most religiously fanantcial of the Dukes followers. What god do you think they follow? Their history does not suggest much in the way of order, rather, I see them as believing in their own indavidual and divine authority (chaos cloaked in law). They are neutral in that they follow a strict hierarchy amongst the Knights, but amongst the populous (everyone else) they each have absolute authority, creating chaos. Which god would represent this. I see them as misguided followers of Kord. They would fall along the CN/CE alignment axis though, as their fervor and feelings of superiority have outweighed any goodness. They are determined to root out the taint of Vecna by fire and sword.
Thoughts?
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I would say that these knights follow no specific god. As to them being a force of chaos, this is highly doubtful. This requires a bit of explanation on my part.
A knightly order is inherently a lawful organization. Those who wish to join an order do so in full knowledge that they will be required to adhere to the bylaws of the order. Chaos does not fit well within any such organization. To quote you, "They are neutral in that they follow a strict hierarchy amongst the Knights, but amongst the populous (everyone else) they each have absolute authority, creating chaos." This first part sounds very familiar, but let me elucidate upon this.
1. Following "a strict hierarchy" implies a strongly lawful bent, which is characteristic of all knightly orders. The Gran March also is historically of a strongly Lawful Neutral persuasion (as per the 83’ folio Glossography p. 31).
2. As this group is known to be made up of the "most religiously fanatical of the Duke's followers", these individuals are probably known to uphold the Duke's laws, as well as their own specific religious laws, and so probably function as arbiters in cases of law where a magistrate isn't present. The knight may even serve as an advisor to a magistrate while within a town/city, particularly if the case involves anything pertaining to Vecna and in such an event the knight might even take over as judge of the proceedings. In effect, they uphold the Duke's law/will at all times, and occasionally function as judge, jury, and even executioner at times when no other lawful agent of the Duke is present(such as in small hamlets and other such rural locales).
3. Not only do they uphold the law, these knights function literally as inquisitors with regard to Vecna, his followers, and any information pertaining to Him/them. In this regard, these knights are granted powers by the Duke himself that allow them to carry out this mission, similar to how the Spanish Inquisition operated outside the realm of secular Spanish law. These knights carry out their mission according to the powers granted them by the Duke, and according to the laws of their individual churches. Are there abuses and injustices? Do the common folk tread lightly about these Inquisitors? Were people been wrongly accused and put to death? The answer would be an unequivocal "YES" in all cases. Mortals are ever imperfect creatures, and some people would just take advantage of the whole scheme to get rid of rivals and/or enemies (the Salem Witch trials being a notable example of this type of thing). ;)
So, I do not see such an organization as the Knights of the March as chaotic; quite the contrary. The Church Inquisitor Prestige Class would actually fit them well, with a bit of tweaking towards facing off against Vecna and likely Vecna minions (undead, lower planar critters, cultists, etc.). As to what deities such knights would follow, I would look to those that were historically in conflict with Vecna. Pelor and Pholtus would be the primary gods of these knights. I can’t quite recall when St. Cuthbert came upon the scene, but he would be another possibility, as would Heironeous (both on principle). Of the Suel pantheon, I would most identify Lendor and Lydia as those deities with followers most likely to be in conflict with Vecna. While many of the evil Suel deities might also be enemies of Vecna, followers of such deities would not be allowed within the order due to philosophical differences.
As to “creating chaos”, the presence of these knights might cause chaos among the populace, as each fears to become drawn (rightly or wrongly) to the attention of such an individual, but the knights themselves are not chaotic. People just react chaotically to their presence, which usually serves the knights in their task, as chaos among one’s enemies is a desirable thing.
---Brian _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Most of the deities mentioned are primarily Oeridian or Flan at the time of the KoM.
Of the Suel dieties you mention, I just don't see a military order of inquisitors as being appropriate to them as described. Lydia isn't Lawful, for one thing. And her interests are generally in preserving and retaining lore, not excising it. Lendor is a possibility, but I generally see him as a distant figure with only a small cult of elders and loremasters.
Which leads me back to Phaulkon. He is a soldiers' god, so he has to understand discipline to some extent. His followers are taught to seek out and destroy evil, particuarly as described in the LGG write up on him.
Remember, the KoM are not a "Church of X" militia. They are a political extention of the Duke of Dorlin's forces, who happen to recruit from those with strong religious convictions about smiting evil. So likely they have followers of many gods. Phaulkon, Wee Jas, Jascar (if you feel he's reconciled with the Suel at this point) and Kord seem the most likely to me., with Phaulkon being the dominant one.
Where is this "most religiously fanantcial of the Dukes followers" quote coming from in canon?
Keoland by its charter is a secular state. What is more, the Neheli (Dorlin is the Neheli dukedom) are more magically inclined (see Silent Ones) than religiously inclined. I thus find the above quote out of the Neheli character.
Assuming the quote is accurate from canon, I would have to go with the entire Suel pantheon, not one particular god. The Knights are guided by the Twelve and Seven Precepts which is both a practical guide to behavior/warfare and a mystical text. It is not specifically religious, as it would be if the knights had a particular religious bent. Therefore, I suggest the "religious fanatics" were fanatical about the Suel pantheon in toto.
This has the added benefit of explaining some of the more unsavory aspects of the Knights.
The Knights use elaborate titles, being led by the Grandiose Imperial Wyvern, which is a clever but thinly veiled reference to the Klu Klux Klan, which is led by the Imperial Grand Wizard. The Knights are by at least this measure modeled after the KKK.
Lest this shock or appall anyone, one need only reflect the the Scarlet Brotherhood is also of Suel origin, albeit being orange robed Nazis more than Kluckers. But they are much of a piece - the Nazis and the KKK - the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Knights of the March/Watch.
::Insert obligatory rant about the "cool Nazi Suel" and add "cool Klucking Suel" - "good Suel?" just say "no."::
I am pretty sure the quote is from the 83 Boxed Set, and though I do not have it here, I believe it is canon. Regardless, I like it. The absence of religion from the entirety of the Sheldomar seems more unrealistic than magic, demons, and teleportation. I think it is more likely that the Keoish ushered their fanatics out of either the country or life, rather than that they didnt have fanatics.
I suppose I assumed several things about the Knights of the Watch and March.
1) there is no doubt that the Knights of the Watch are mostly good, lawful and orderly. They are, in fact an Order.
2)the above would lead one to assume that their predecessors were chosen for the same reason, and are in some ways like that.
However, history is not nearly so consisitent. There is a reason that they were replaced, though we know not what it is. When I read the quote about the Knights being the "most religiously fanantical," I did not assume that they were just a "little more," religious than the non religious Keoish.
I would say it went something like this...
1) The Nehli do not want to have to subdue the area that is the March, and may have been exploiting the chaos for economic gain. They know that the cost to subdue such a place, with its countless factions and warlike nature, will be immense.
2) The King orders the Duke of Dorlain to do something or else.
3) The Duke, seeking to comply with the King's demand, yet not wanting to expend resources to comply, creates a solution. The Kingdom of Keoland is not a place that looks well upon organized religion, and the Duke has several hundred raving lunatics with swords running around his duchy. Maybe they were drawn by the constant warfare to the north.
"Aha!" He says, after a long nights thought, "lets ship these religious fanantics north and give them free reign." This will comply with the kings edict, eliminating the first problem. Most of them will probably die in the attempt, eliminating another problem; they will probably kill many or most of the irritating Flan to the north, eliminating yet another problem.
All he has to do is make them all Knights and stall the king with a "I have sent 500 knights to the north," letter.
Now, this may have come to my mind because it is exactly the type of thing that happened to the followers of Bonnie Prince Charlie. The overseers of Georgia asked for soldier/farmers to beat back the savages and farm the land. The king agreed instructed his nobles to aid in finding such persons; the northern english lords shipped them the Scotts. And we have been here ever since.
As the indians found out, this does not mean that the "Knights," were good and just. That they were eventually termed the Knights of the March may have simply meant that they survived long enough for the March to take shape as a political entity.
There was no preexisting structure with a moral basis to speak of in the Knights of the March. There was no order of knighthood. These were not a venerated group who had been training for years. They were, at best, a group of "knights," from what was then a frontier land settled by refugees who escaped with a few clothes from the largest catastrophe in recorded history. Not looking too good for the heathens to the north.
And after all, there is a reason that Tavish replaced the KoM with the KoW. It could be (and the histories as written seem to indicate) that it was because they were dispicable men with agendas verging on genocide and salvation by the sword. I think there is no doubt that EGG intended all of these knights to be linked to the historic crusaders (at least in feel and description), and i think he would have appreciated the reflection of those who sacked European cities as well as fought heathens in the Holy Land.
Simply put, I don't like the simple two dimensional portrayal of the Good Knights.
If this has come off as a rant, I do not mean it to be in any way, I am just trying to finish prior catching a plane. Editing will come later.
Actually, I pretty much agree, Anced. I was going to point out that there was no reason to believe the Knights of the March were "lawful" in nature. It is entirely feasible to have a "chaotic" aligned Order. Or, as you suggest, an ex post facto order. There isn't any reason to believe the Knights of the March were heirarchal, stratified, or highly disciplined the way the Knights of the Watch are.
I am pretty sure the quote is from the 83 Boxed Set, and though I do not have it here, I believe it is canon.
"Keoland established the territory of the Gran March during its early stages, basing it upon a military-religious order of knights. These zealous fighters quickly subdued the warring inhabitants, established order within the area, and conscripted all fit males into worker and infantry battles (regimental-like formations)." - A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, 22
"Knights of the Watch: Certain stout soldiers from the lands of Bissel, Gran March, Geoff, and Keoland are invited to join this order. which is pledged to protect the east from incursions of the Paynims and other Westerlings. These knights hold certain castles, keeps, and strongholds along the Ketish border and elsewhere in the western mountains. The Watchers are a near-monastic order and very strictly disciplined." - A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, 79
That's all I see. I don't think the Knights of the March are mentioned by name in the 1983 boxed set.
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The absence of religion from the entirety of the Sheldomar seems more unrealistic than magic, demons, and teleportation.
I don't think it's claimed anywhere that the people of the Sheldomar are not religious, only that religions are not supported by the Keoish state. Churches and temples get the funds they need from spells they grant and other sources rather than government-mandated tithes, and the Keoish government favors no religion over another.
I'm sure Keoland has many religious fanatics (only perhaps not among the noble houses). From the text, it sounds like the Knights of the Watch did have a religious background, though they may have been zealous in more secular or mystical ways.
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1) there is no doubt that the Knights of the Watch are mostly good, lawful and orderly. They are, in fact an Order.
They're definitely lawful and orderly. I don't know that there's any evidence they're good.
The original inspiration looks to me like the Knights Templar.
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"Aha!" He says, after a long nights thought, "lets ship these religious fanantics north and give them free reign."
Perhaps. Would the Keoish even have a problem with religious fanatics? I think the original secular charter was just a way to create unity between the Oerids and Suel, so that neither group seemed slighted in their religious preference - I don't know that it was to be interpreted as a command that the peoples of the new nation of Keoland not have a religious preference.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer said, "The Knights of the Watch was created several centuries ago on the foundation of an earlier organization based in Gran March," though it describes them as more "mystical" than religious. [p. 159]
I don't see anything that says the Knights of the March were religious fanatics, though they do have a religious/mystical bent. The quote about them in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is, "Legend holds that, after the defeat of Vecna nad the dissolution of his empire (placed in the northern part of the Sheldomar Valley in some accounts), the nascent Keolandish crown created an order of knights in the frontier region. The Knights of the March were ordered to bring law to the land and to quell the warring of the native Flan factions... When a perceived threat from within beset the nation, the Knights of the March sprung upon it fiercely and decisively."
I'm inclined to think that the Teutonic Order of Holy Mary in Jerusalem (aka the Teutonic Knights) would be a more accurate basis for the KoM/KoW than the Templars. Their history in Prussia seems to strongly parallel the history of Gran March.
The pre existing Order (the Order of the Sword Brothers) that was absorbed/replaced by the later Order (the Marian Teutonic Knights), the particularly oppressive/intolerant attitude towards the locals, the intermingling with local nobles, and the eventual outright control of the government.
I'm inclined to think that the Teutonic Order of Holy Mary in Jerusalem (aka the Teutonic Knights) would be a more accurate basis for the KoM/KoW than the Templars.
There's also the added details that like the KoM/KoW, the Teutonic Knights, had to deal with "Paynims" in the form of the Mongols, who inflicted a series of stinging defeats on them during their European tours. Something similar may have happened to the KoW in Ket.
Also - don't forget the influence of Heironeous and Hextor (and perhaps Erythnul) in all this. It's likely that many Keogh horsemen found service on the northern marches of Keoland at this time (where I'm sure the Neheli and the Rhola were glad to see them, rather than making trouble in the heartlands of the kingdom) and they'd have brought their gods of war with them.
Whereas the Suel knights might have been in the mode of kataphraktoi (I like that idea a lot actually), the Keogh might have constituted more light and medium cavalry units (more like the Magyars or Norman cavalry).
Phases of the Knights of the March/Knights of the Watch.
Phase 1 - Creation
The original KoM were “military-religious” and they were “zealous.” They were created to pacify Keoland’s northern extents.
Open Question: What religion(s) did they follow follow?
Phase 2 - Reinvention
The KoM adopts the philosophy of the 12 and 7 Precepts and becomes more “mystical” than “religious.”
Open Question: Why did the KoM adopt the Precepts - a philosophy, not a religion nor connected to a religion? What happened to their “religious” “zeal?”
Phase 3 - Rise
The KoM become the defacto rulers of the GM but still draw members from across the Sheldomar Valley, becoming the single largest order of Knighthood.
Open Question: Why did membership in the KoM become so popular among knights no where near the GM, what drew them to the order such that it grew to such a large extent?
Phase 4 - Fall
The Keoish throne splits the KoM to create a “tamer” KoW. Rule of the GM is severed from leadership of the KoW.
Open Question: What had the KoM done or what was it perceived as having the potential to do such that it made sense to redesignate it and sever it from the land? Was it too successful gathering knights not directly involved in the GM and by becoming so widespread with a land base as well, was it seen as a (growing) threat to Keolandish hegemony in the Sheldomar Valley?
Phase 5 - Independence
The GM is “freed” from Keoish domination after the Short War and the KoW is “freed” to a similar extent.
Open Question: How does the KoW respond to the GM’s new “freedom” from Keoland?
Phase 6 - Rebirth and Fracture
The KoW reasserts itself in the GM, ousting the prior Commandant and replacing him with someone more one of their own. The KoW further consolidates in Bissel. However, the Knights of Dispatch, while remaining within the KoW structure develop a parallel structure.
Open Question: How strongly is the KoW reasserting temporal control over the GM and what does the formation of the Knights of Dispatch portend? _________________ GVD
Judging from their titles (::snicker::) I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have some common elements with the Suloise Arcanamach. Of course the arcane elements of the order would have been purged much as most everything else arcane was after the Twin Cataclysms in Keoland. The rigorous training and monastic bent might have stuck around for a while until the current order a fairly sprawling undisciplined order of knights with an archaic form of titles that nobody really understands.
Phases of the Knights of the March/Knights of the Watch.
Phase 1 - Creation
The original KoM were “military-religious” and they were “zealous.” They were created to pacify Keoland’s northern extents.
Open Question: What religion(s) did they follow follow?
Wee Jas and Lydia.
Both were committed to the destruction of the necromantic followers of Vecna in the region. (Despite your hatred of Wee Jas hating undead, and others' hatred of Lydia suppressing thoroughly vile knowledge simply because it is "knowledge.")
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Phase 2 - Reinvention
The KoM adopts the philosophy of the 12 and 7 Precepts and becomes more “mystical” than “religious.”
Open Question: Why did the KoM adopt the Precepts - a philosophy, not a religion nor connected to a religion? What happened to their “religious” “zeal?”
They adopted this after the split, not before it.
They did so to replace their previous focus, which was primarily suppressing (read: "exterminating") the Flan Vecna worshipers, and to account for their new mission of defending against the Bakluni.
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Phase 3 - Rise
The KoM become the defacto rulers of the GM but still draw members from across the Sheldomar Valley, becoming the single largest order of Knighthood.
Open Question: Why did membership in the KoM become so popular among knights no where near the GM, what drew them to the order such that it grew to such a large extent?
No, that was the Knights of the Watch that became the de jure rulers. And they did that only after Tavish II refocused the order after Tavish I created the order.
They became popular for several reasons:
1. They were an outlet for the exceptionally devoted who were willing to undertake the devotions of the order.
2. They had significant prestige under Tavish I as defenders of the frontier.
3. They had excessive power under Tavish II and Tavish III as the leaders of their armies, and near independent rulers of the north.
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Phase 4 - Fall
The Keoish throne splits the KoM to create a “tamer” KoW. Rule of the GM is severed from leadership of the KoW.
Open Question: What had the KoM done or what was it perceived as having the potential to do such that it made sense to redesignate it and sever it from the land? Was it too successful gathering knights not directly involved in the GM and by becoming so widespread with a land base as well, was it seen as a (growing) threat to Keolandish hegemony in the Sheldomar Valley?
Again, you are confusing multiple occurrences here.
First, the KotW were split off because the KotM were no longer needed. The region was subdued, the mission was accomplished. Conversely, there was a need for the KotW to form the border guards against future migrations of Bakluni, as well as to guard the Crytalmist borders.
Second, the rule of the Gran March was severed following the Short War, and was done to limit the influence of Keoish Royal politics on the March. Previously, the head of the order was chosen to be appealing to the King, who would appoint the Commandant of the Gran March. That is what led to Berlikyn and the Short War.
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Phase 5 - Independence
The GM is “freed” from Keoish domination after the Short War and the KoW is “freed” to a similar extent.
Open Question: How does the KoW respond to the GM’s new “freedom” from Keoland?
This "freedom" should be taken as the Gran March becoming a member of Keoland rather than a military command.
As for the KotW, they respond by institutionalizing their anti-Baklunish feelings, as well as reviving some significant anti-Flan feelings.
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Phase 6 - Rebirth and Fracture
The KoW reasserts itself in the GM, ousting the prior Commandant and replacing him with someone more one of their own. The KoW further consolidates in Bissel. However, the Knights of Dispatch, while remaining within the KoW structure develop a parallel structure.
Open Question: How strongly is the KoW reasserting temporal control over the GM and what does the formation of the Knights of Dispatch portend?
The KotW are very strongly asserting control, but in an indirect manner. They are simply insisting that all elected officials be hardlne members of the order.
As for the KoD, perhaps it portends a split in the order, as some members turn back to the original intent of the order, rather than what it has become.
Phases of the Knights of the March/Knights of the Watch.
Phase 1 - Creation
The original KoM were “military-religious” and they were “zealous.” They were created to pacify Keoland’s northern extents.
Open Question: What religion(s) did they follow follow?
I'd say a mix of Phaulkon, Kord and Wee Jas (for the Suel), Heironeous (possibly Hextor too) and Pholtus (for the Keogh). I put in Wee Jas there as she has Law as part of her portfolio and the KoM were "ordered to bring law to the land and quell the warring of the native Flan factions."
Actually looking at the LGG list of religions for the GM, I'm struck by the preeminence of Oeridian gods! Perhaps the Keogh played a bigger part in the KoM than previously considered? The Duke of Dorlin may used footloose Keogh horsemen as the foundation stones of what became the Knights of the March - usefully redirecting their warlike Oeridian temperments to securing the northern march of the kingdom.
GVDammerung wrote:
Phase 2 - Reinvention
The KoM adopts the philosophy of the 12 and 7 Precepts and becomes more “mystical” than “religious.”
Open Question: Why did the KoM adopt the Precepts - a philosophy, not a religion nor connected to a religion? What happened to their “religious” “zeal?”
Well - they might never have been that terribly reigious to begin. And certainly, the Great Houses of Keoland would have discouraged the Knights from becoming a sink for the kind of religious zealotry that the Charter of Keoland took such pains to avoid in framing the government of the kingdom.
The LGG mentions that the Knights moved against "seemingly upstanding members of the lesser aristocracy". Perhaps this trend was religiously inspired and disturbed the Neheli, who moved to purge the order of zealots and reform it with the Precepts? Secret teachings and mystical philosophies sounds a lot like the Neheli to me.
GVDammerung wrote:
Phase 3 - Rise
The KoM become the defacto rulers of the GM but still draw members from across the Sheldomar Valley, becoming the single largest order of Knighthood.
Open Question: Why did membership in the KoM become so popular among knights no where near the GM, what drew them to the order such that it grew to such a large extent?
I'd say that the popularity came before/during the conquest of the March, when it was a "wild frontier" needing to be tamed and civilised. The promise of land would be a big draw to footloose Keoish nobles (Suel and Oerid). The Knights would subsequently have served as a sink for younger sons of noble families to keep them out of trouble (the priesthood after all wasn't terribly popular as a route to power for the ruling classes as it was elsewhere in the Flanaess).
GVDammerung wrote:
Phase 4 - Fall
The Keoish throne splits the KoM to create a “tamer” KoW. Rule of the GM is severed from leadership of the KoW.
Open Question: What had the KoM done or what was it perceived as having the potential to do such that it made sense to redesignate it and sever it from the land? Was it too successful gathering knights not directly involved in the GM and by becoming so widespread with a land base as well, was it seen as a (growing) threat to Keolandish hegemony in the Sheldomar Valley?
The Canon history is actually slightly different here. The Knights of the Watch were created by Tavish I as a response to the raids by the Brazen Horde through the Fals Gap in the 300s CY. The Watch was in fact an aggrandisment of the Knights of the March, not a diminution!
From the LGG:
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"King Tavish I of Keoland ordered the foundation of the Knights of the Watch, built on the basis of the Knights of the March and commanded by its leaders."
"Indeed, the commendant became titular ruler of the massive knighthood, as well as leader of his nation."
So the KoW weren't separated from the rule of the March or curbed at all at this time. During the era of the Tavishes, the Watch and GM became central to the Lion Throne's ambitions in Bissel, Ket and Veluna. This is also the point when the Order become truely international - drawing knights from around the Sheldomar - to claim new lands in the West and drive back the heathen Baklun and preserve civilisation (as the Greater Keoish would have seen it).
It wasn't till after the disasters of the Small War and the loss of Bissel to Furyondy that the abuses and oppression of the Commendants of the March become too much for Niole Dra to ignore. This was the point when the governance of the March was split from the title of head of the Watch.
GVDammerung wrote:
Phase 5 - Independence
The GM is “freed” from Keoish domination after the Short War and the KoW is “freed” to a similar extent.
Open Question: How does the KoW respond to the GM’s new “freedom” from Keoland?
Well - it wasn't the splitting of the titles that freed GM from Keoland - and GM wasn't really "free from Keoish domination" as such. It's likely that once the age of the Tavishes past, that the kings of Keoland were content to let the satellites govern themselves largely - so long as they still paid homage to the Throne of the Lion and played nice.
GVDammerung wrote:
Phase 6 - Rebirth and Fracture
The KoW reasserts itself in the GM, ousting the prior Commandant and replacing him with someone more one of their own. The KoW further consolidates in Bissel. However, the Knights of Dispatch, while remaining within the KoW structure develop a parallel structure.
Open Question: How strongly is the KoW reasserting temporal control over the GM and what does the formation of the Knights of Dispatch portend?
This is accurate, the KoW did apparently use their influence to replace Petros with Vrianian and have consolidated their hold over the March and Bissel. It's possible that this heralds a resurgence of the old imperialist style of the Watch under the Tavishes. It's likely that the schism with the Dispatch centred around a dispute about what the true goal of the Order was - defending the Sheldomar against all enemies or pursuing some mystical destiny against the ancient enemy of the Sueloise people - the Baklunish. If you ask me - that's what's at the heart of the mystical noodlings of the Watch. The Dispatch are more moderate and so rejected the "old ways" both tactically and philosophically.
EDIT: D'oh should have known Sam would get in there first and gazzump this post! :)
Phases of the Knights of the March/Knights of the Watch.
Phase 1 - Creation
The original KoM were “military-religious” and they were “zealous.” They were created to pacify Keoland’s northern extents.
Open Question: What religion(s) did they follow follow?
Wee Jas and Lydia.
Both were committed to the destruction of the necromantic followers of Vecna in the region. (Despite your hatred of Wee Jas hating undead, and others' hatred of Lydia suppressing thoroughly vile knowledge simply because it is "knowledge.")
Quote:
Phase 2 - Reinvention
The KoM adopts the philosophy of the 12 and 7 Precepts and becomes more “mystical” than “religious.”
Open Question: Why did the KoM adopt the Precepts - a philosophy, not a religion nor connected to a religion? What happened to their “religious” “zeal?”
They adopted this after the split, not before it.
They did so to replace their previous focus, which was primarily suppressing (read: "exterminating") the Flan Vecna worshipers, and to account for their new mission of defending against the Bakluni.
Quote:
Phase 3 - Rise
The KoM become the defacto rulers of the GM but still draw members from across the Sheldomar Valley, becoming the single largest order of Knighthood.
Open Question: Why did membership in the KoM become so popular among knights no where near the GM, what drew them to the order such that it grew to such a large extent?
No, that was the Knights of the Watch that became the de jure rulers. And they did that only after Tavish II refocused the order after Tavish I created the order.
They became popular for several reasons:
1. They were an outlet for the exceptionally devoted who were willing to undertake the devotions of the order.
2. They had significant prestige under Tavish I as defenders of the frontier.
3. They had excessive power under Tavish II and Tavish III as the leaders of their armies, and near independent rulers of the north.
Quote:
Phase 4 - Fall
The Keoish throne splits the KoM to create a “tamer” KoW. Rule of the GM is severed from leadership of the KoW.
Open Question: What had the KoM done or what was it perceived as having the potential to do such that it made sense to redesignate it and sever it from the land? Was it too successful gathering knights not directly involved in the GM and by becoming so widespread with a land base as well, was it seen as a (growing) threat to Keolandish hegemony in the Sheldomar Valley?
Again, you are confusing multiple occurrences here.
First, the KotW were split off because the KotM were no longer needed. The region was subdued, the mission was accomplished. Conversely, there was a need for the KotW to form the border guards against future migrations of Bakluni, as well as to guard the Crytalmist borders.
Second, the rule of the Gran March was severed following the Short War, and was done to limit the influence of Keoish Royal politics on the March. Previously, the head of the order was chosen to be appealing to the King, who would appoint the Commandant of the Gran March. That is what led to Berlikyn and the Short War.
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Phase 5 - Independence
The GM is “freed” from Keoish domination after the Short War and the KoW is “freed” to a similar extent.
Open Question: How does the KoW respond to the GM’s new “freedom” from Keoland?
This "freedom" should be taken as the Gran March becoming a member of Keoland rather than a military command.
As for the KotW, they respond by institutionalizing their anti-Baklunish feelings, as well as reviving some significant anti-Flan feelings.
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Phase 6 - Rebirth and Fracture
The KoW reasserts itself in the GM, ousting the prior Commandant and replacing him with someone more one of their own. The KoW further consolidates in Bissel. However, the Knights of Dispatch, while remaining within the KoW structure develop a parallel structure.
Open Question: How strongly is the KoW reasserting temporal control over the GM and what does the formation of the Knights of Dispatch portend?
The KotW are very strongly asserting control, but in an indirect manner. They are simply insisting that all elected officials be hardlne members of the order.
As for the KoD, perhaps it portends a split in the order, as some members turn back to the original intent of the order, rather than what it has become.
On Pt 1 -
For the reasons you identify, I don’t like either option. If forced to pick a deity, I’m inclined to go with Lendor, who gets little enough play despite being the head of the Suel pantheon.
On Pt 2 -
I see nothing that indicates that the adoption occurred after the split, although nothing says it occurred before the split either. The idea of a wholsesale shift in focus virtually overnight and the adoption of a thoroughgoing new philosophy seems to me unmotivated in canon and unrealistic on its face. Alternatively, if that is all it was, that strikes me as extraordinarily dull. The LGG entry offers more possibilities than a mere “shift” delivers, particularly if such a “shift” is of comparatively recent derivation. I prefer the idea that something in this philosophy “enlightened” the KoM, perhaps resonating with something in their prior faith.
On Pt 3 -
Note “de facto.” Subduing the March and coming into conflict with the local nobility, eventually executing the Count of Hochoch and after a “forced” “public” punishment the upshot is those troublesome nobles being exported. De facto rulership - in fact.
While the Knights would only become “de jure” rulers of the March with Tavish I, nothing in canon indicates precisely when they became so popular, except that we known they had achieved such popularity when the various canon sources note it. Unless we are to indulge another “overnight sensation” where the Knights are concerned, there popularity would have been building for some period of time.
On Pt 4 -
The listed order of events is correct.
Tavish I creates the KoW from the KoM. That he did this solely to “repurpose” the Knights is possible; canon is silent. It strikes me, however, as a rather dull interpretation of events. T1 could have more easily repurposed the Knights without the need to create a whole new order UNLESS there was something about the KoM that counseled against keeping them around in any form. This is interesting, IMO. If we hook up this thought with the aforementioned popularity, we begin to see a KoM growing, perhaps, uncomfortably powerful so that T1 needs to take them down a peg - repurpose them. THAT is interesting. And it gets more interesting when we see the Knights split from the rule of the GM later on. These Knights are getting the heck “repurposed” out of them. Just because? Possible. But hohum. More interesting if the KoM had grown so popular that they posed a possible and increasingly popular counterweight to the authority of the Lion Throne in the north, so first the Lion Throne “recreated them” then severed their land holdings so they have no natural territorial base. And if this popularity that makes the Lion Throne nervous is by some measure attributable to the “philosophy” which swept up the Knights previously? Cool. One neat package connecting the knights 1) philosophy, 2) popularity, 3) split and 4) severance from temporal rule - a secret war on the increasingly popular and powerful knights by a fearful Lion Throne. THAT IS INTERESTING. And it gets better! Because the Knights are presently putting the band back together! Round 2 coming up. And this time they know they can’t trust the Lion Throne. THAT IS INTERESTING. Or its all just a mundane reshuffling of Keoland’s deck.
On Pt 5 -
“Freedom” as becoming a member of Keoland? Possible. Strikes me as dull as we have lots of members of Keoland. So, nothing special here. BUT! If the Knights are now essentially an independent state? AND if we give them the aforementioned gloss of having been “taken down” by T1? Business is about to pick up in the northern Sheldomar! War? Secret war? Cold war? Political cut and thrust as the Knights are now free and of independent means but know they don’t want to push Keoland too far? Yet. Lots of possibilities. Or they are a member state of Keoland.
On Pt 6 -
Agreed here on how they are asserting power. As to the split, canon provides precious little to go on and I have no puzzled on it to any degree. _________________ GVD
The Watch was in fact an aggrandisment of the Knights of the March, not a diminution!
From the LGG:
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"King Tavish I of Keoland ordered the foundation of the Knights of the Watch, built on the basis of the Knights of the March and commanded by its leaders."
"Indeed, the commendant became titular ruler of the massive knighthood, as well as leader of his nation."
Interesting. I see your read. It has, however, always struck me as a dimunition of the KoM. The mere name change suggests this to me as does "on the basis" suggesting a differencing - somehow the KoM was found wanting and hence a change needed to occur even if it was not a total recreation. _________________ GVD
EDIT: D'oh should have known Sam would get in there first and gazzump this post! :)
Of course.
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The LGG mentions that the Knights moved against "seemingly upstanding members of the lesser aristocracy". Perhaps this trend was religiously inspired and disturbed the Neheli, who moved to purge the order of zealots and reform it with the Precepts? Secret teachings and mystical philosophies sounds a lot like the Neheli to me.
That is part of the "hidden" background. The Knights of the March were suppressing Vecna cultists. Along with that, they were suppressing any Neheli who had information about the deals the Neheli made with Vecna, as well as any pursuing research along those lines.
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So the KoW weren't separated from the rule of the March or curbed at all at this time. During the era of the Tavishes, the Watch and GM became central to the Lion Throne's ambitions in Bissel, Ket and Veluna. This is also the point when the Order become truely international - drawing knights from around the Sheldomar - to claim new lands in the West and drive back the heathen Baklun and preserve civilisation (as the Greater Keoish would have seen it).
As I noted, bear in mind the difference between Tavish I and Tavish II.
Tavish I very clearly stopped at Bissel, and formed the KotW to protect against Baklunish incursions.
Tavish II went to war with Ket and Veluna.
Two very different purposes and uses of the KotW.
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It's likely that the schism with the Dispatch centred around a dispute about what the true goal of the Order was - defending the Sheldomar against all enemies or pursuing some mystical destiny against the ancient enemy of the Sueloise people - the Baklunish. If you ask me - that's what's at the heart of the mystical noodlings of the Watch. The Dispatch are more moderate and so rejected the "old ways" both tactically and philosophically.
I might also note that the Bissel Border Companies preserved what might be described as the original purpose of the KotW. Perhaps there already was a split in the organization, perhaps engineered or influenced by Furyondy, back around the time of the Short War.
For the reasons you identify, I don’t like either option. If forced to pick a deity, I’m inclined to go with Lendor, who gets little enough play despite being the head of the Suel pantheon.
I rather expected you would. I still stand by that analysis, and it remains the basis of my view of the Knights of the Malagari, the inheritors of the "secret" purpose of the KotM.
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On Pt 2 -
I see nothing that indicates that the adoption occurred after the split, although nothing says it occurred before the split either.
Well, other than the fact that the KotW adopted those precepts and not the KotM, when else could it have occurred?
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On Pt 3 -
Note “de facto.” Subduing the March and coming into conflict with the local nobility, eventually executing the Count of Hochoch and after a “forced” “public” punishment the upshot is those troublesome nobles being exported. De facto rulership - in fact.
First, bear in mind that is my canon you are now talking about. So I'm rather confident in asserting what I intended when I wrote it.
And that is, the KotM had an "open" task of subduing the region as part of Keoish expansion, a "secret" task of extirpating all followers of Vecna, and a "more secret" task of covering up any Neheli connection to Vecna.
All these are in stark contrast to the purposes of the KotW.
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While the Knights would only become “de jure” rulers of the March with Tavish I, nothing in canon indicates precisely when they became so popular, except that we known they had achieved such popularity when the various canon sources note it. Unless we are to indulge another “overnight sensation” where the Knights are concerned, there popularity would have been building for some period of time.
Again, I must note that once again you are not into my canon.
Tavish separated the Gran March from the Duchy of Dorlin, thus enabling the KotW to be able to become legal rulers. As with other things, this was a deliberate construct of mine to develop and explain the political evolution of the area.
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On Pt 4 -
The listed order of events is correct.
Tavish I creates the KoW from the KoM. That he did this solely to “repurpose” the Knights is possible; canon is silent. It strikes me, however, as a rather dull interpretation of events. T1 could have more easily repurposed the Knights without the need to create a whole new order UNLESS there was something about the KoM that counseled against keeping them around in any form. This is interesting, IMO.
Quite interesting in my opinion too.
Which would be why I did it.
Naturally you need to consider the full body of what I've written concerning the KotM, KotW, Darkwatch, and various aspects of Keoish history to see all that, but it most certainly is there.
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On Pt 5 -
“Freedom” as becoming a member of Keoland? Possible. Strikes me as dull as we have lots of members of Keoland. So, nothing special here.
. . .
Or they are a member state of Keoland.
Well aside from the 83 set having the titles of Kimbertos as:
His Peerless Majesty, the King of Keoland, Kimbertos Skotti; Lord of Gran March, Plar of Sterich; Protector of the South; etc.
what would suggest to you that Gran March is not part of Keoland?
And Keoland, having be redefined as a federal state by Gary Holian with expansion on such concept by myself, would suggest that Gran March would not then be a member given the other aspects of the history, such as becoming able to elect their own Commandant rather than having one appointed by the King?
And what, given the other political maneuvering alluded to by Gary Holian and myself, would suggest that doesn't mean a great potential for political infighting?
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On Pt 6 -
Agreed here on how they are asserting power. As to the split, canon provides precious little to go on and I have no puzzled on it to any degree.
I have considered many things. Not all are yet written up, for a variety of reasons.
The arcanamachs of House Neheli would have been worshippers of Wee Jas in her aspect as goddess of magic. Whether Wee Jas herself would have ordered necromancers killed for their own sake is irrelevant - they were dispatched by their mortal masters because Vecna and his subordinate necromancers were a threat to the House. Perhaps we can assume, for the sake of argument, that the Knights of the March grew directly from these arcanamach soldiers, a mystical, tremendously disciplined and insular society initially not admitting Oeridians or even members of other Suel houses into their ranks.
Cue Tavish I landing in Shiboleth on a black griffon, wearing his imperial flight suit with a gaily-colored banner in the background. Before the cheering crowd, he announces the resistance has been crushed and, to ensure that no one ever speaks of this again, the newly formed Knights of the Watch will now kill everyone in attendance.
Vecna steps on a lot of Wee Jas's toes, and while Lydia is a goddess of knowledge, she certainly isn't the goddess of everyone having access to ALL knowledge, particularly the most dangerous kinds of knowledge. For example:
"Here kid! This is how you make gun powder. Try not to blow your hands off making it!"
Lydia likes little kids to have hands, hence no stumps conveniently available for a Hand of Vecna to be attached to.
And so some knowledge simply needs to be suppressed for the betterment of the stupid and unwise. She is also good, representing daylight. Vecna is a god of secret knowledge, but more aptly a god of secret occult knowledge or "Dark Lore", which is kind of Lydia's antithesis (knowledge to help, not to hurt).
Also, as I understand it the Malgari/Darkwatch came into being separately from the Neheli and were only attached to that family during the reign of Tavish II as a political coup(for influence I presume). I would also assume that the Malgari/Darkwatch existed for quite some time prior to the formation of the Knights of the Watch and that many members of that organization were in fact Malgari/Darkwatch, as is the case in the present day. It is also about 700 years after the fall of Vecna's empire that the Malgari/Darkwatch became part of the Neheli. Kind of a long time for information on Vecna to disseminate throughout the Flanaess and beyond for them to have much of an impact on suppressing it if the Malgari/Darkwatch only showed up in the mid 300's.
I figure the aim of the Malgari/Darkwatch was more in making sure that no Vecna cults popped up and/or had the goal of hunting down any remnants of Vecna's empire, foremost among these being the Hand and Eye of Vecna and the Sword of Kas, as well as any information pertaining to them. So, I would say that the Malgari/Darkwatch originated around the fall of Vecna's empire. The Knights of the Watch grew out of a less formalized group(perhaps something so simple as a warrior guild) unrelated to the Malgari/Darkwatch, as it is assumed that like all other major knightly orders in the Flanaess that they took their queue from the Knight Protectors on forming their order, though being heavily influenced by the teachings of Azamander the order in some ways drastically diverges from the Knight Protectors structure.
Though I cringe at the thought of Vecna being so much less ancient than I imagine, it is certainly fun to try and pound this square peg through a round hole.
My top picks for deity influences among the membership of the Malgari/Darkwatch are Wee Jas, Lydia, Pelor, and Pholtus. Phaulkon does make a good choice for a warrior patron but he is not particularly suited as a foil to Vecna without some sort of back story, particularly as Kord is the most popular patron of warriors among the Suel. Phaulkon's hunter aspect would suit the "Spanish Inquisition" aspect of the Malgari/Darkwatch, representing the "Hunters of Vecna" angle.
The reason I thow in Pelor and Pholtus as possible deities of Malgari/Darkwatch members is mainly due to my opinion that not only the Suel in the area, but the remnants of the subjugated Flan(and Oeridians too) would have common cause to band together for the purpose of eradicating everything and anything to do with Vecna. Plus Fleeth is kind of their Alamo. "Remember Fleeth!" _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
So, I would say that the Malgari/Darkwatch originated around the fall of Vecna's empire. The Knights of the Watch grew out of a less formalized group(perhaps something so simple as a warrior guild) unrelated to the Malgari/Darkwatch, as it is assumed that like all other major knightly orders in the Flanaess that they took their queue from the Knight Protectors on forming their order, though being heavily influenced by the teachings of Azamander the order in some ways drastically diverges from the Knight Protectors structure.
I'd have thought that the Malagari were a continuance of the Knights of the March's mission and if they weren't extant at that time, they were certianly buried within the stucture of the Knights of the March. Perhaps when the Knights of the March became the Watch, the Malagari split off (Sam will no doubt tell us in due course).
Further - I'm not sure the Keoish would have deigned to base anything on the Knights Protectors or anything else Aerdi. The KoW were what the Knights of the March were transformed into - but with an expanded area of responsibility and mission to reflect the expanded borders of Greater Keoland (less focussed on Vecna specifically and more on preserving the Greater Keoish commonwealth).
Cebrion wrote:
Phaulkon does make a good choice for a warrior patron but he is not particularly suited as a foil to Vecna without some sort of back story, particularly as Kord is the most popular patron of warriors among the Suel. Phaulkon's hunter aspect would suit the "Spanish Inquisition" aspect of the Malgari/Darkwatch, representing the "Hunters of Vecna" angle.
Aside from his brief to destroy harmful artifacts, as mentioned in the LGG?
Sounds perfect for dealing with the Hand and Eye of Vecna to me.
I'd reiterate the influence of Oerids in KoM and KoW, btw - given that the list of major gods for the Gran March in the LGG is mainly Oeridian and has Heironeous at its head.
Sorry I am coming back into this so late, but I am out of the country and the internet is a spotty thing.
One reason for this post originally is that I am writing the History of the March for the Gran March Project, and Cebrion is tackling the Knights of the Watch/Dispatch in their current day incarnation.
One of the things that we agreed upon many moons ago was to establish a canon, so that the product of the various authors would mesh. To this end we chose all products published by TSR/WoTC, and the Grand Sheldomar Timeline I, II, & II. Sam shared this with us in the pre publication version so as to facilitate our project (thanks Sam!). It does NOT include such things as Living Greyhawk though we would like to remain consistent with what they have written WHEN POSSIBLE. Please note that the Living Gran March Triad forbade usage of ANY of their material. However, Cebrion is referancing the Knights of the Watch articles on the WOTC website, as they are quite good if inconsistent with other canon.
I thought I should add this in an effort to slightly shape debate and discussion. (probably wont, but worth a try!)
. . . First, bear in mind that is my canon you are now talking about. So I'm rather confident in asserting what I intended when I wrote it.
The timeline is a fine work and I would not gainsay your interpretation of it as far as that goes. But it does not go so far. Fanon is both derivative, being fundamentally indebted to actual canon published by the IP holder or licensee, as well as distinct from such work. This does not change even when the creator of the actual canon, Gary Holian, is influential in shaping the Fanon. Once fan material is shared with the fan community it becomes substantially open to interpretation, extrapolation and reinvention, whether or not any such would square with the Fanon author’s secret thoughts or those of the canon author.
The Sheldomar Timeline, while a fine work, has issues.
First, its focus is Keoland but very narrowly so. Keoland gets all or most of the toys - all the good bits. The remaining Sheldomar states are left to orbit Keoland - to exist only as part of Keoland’s greater story. That takes geography and history too far, as while Keoland is the largest player in the Sheldomar it has not retained a historic supremacy but has seen its supremacy eroded and defeated, and is suboptimal design because it robs everything in the Sheldomar, but Keoland, of any real vitality.
Example, the Ulek States, the only demi-human powers in the Flanaess outside Celene, are made to exist at Keoland’s whim, with the Principality of Ulek acting as nothing more than Keoland’s willing catspaw. Even Celene is “garrisoned” by Keoland This is needless gilding of Keoland’s lily that reduces what might otherwise be more interesting players to bit players with bit parts. A waste of resources.
In the Gran March much the same is evident. Seeing the Gran March as unique only as a Keoland military bulwark reduces any potential there to almost nothing. Keoland is embiggened while the Gran March is diminished. Again, resources are wasted. The Gran March has at the least, a potentially interesting order of knighthood, more ties to Vecna’s ancient empire than any other locale in the Flanaess and an equal connection to the Far Realm. Making the Knights mere Vecna hunters, when Vecna’s story has moved well beyond such even as of the date of the debut of the World of Greyhawk, and then mere military bulwarks for Keoland ignores any unique contributions the Gran March could bring to the table, particularly as regards a potential to challenge Keoland’s hegemony in the Sheldomar.
Keolandish hegemony in the Sheldomar is a BAD IDEA. Let’s be very clear on that point. It is not good design to slave an entire quarter of the setting to one unified and unchallenged state. The Sheldomar Timeline protects Keoland from significant and meaningful challenge from its nearest neighbors and, in the process, renders that portion of the rest of the Sheldomar an almost afterthought.
Another example, Keoland and her rebellious nobles as fountainheads for the modern Sea Princes. No longer are the Sea Princes an independent source of adventure but are made derivative of Keoland. Again, Keoland is embiggened at the expense of another SW Flanaess state.
The easy answer is, of course, that Keoland has always played the largest role in the Sheldomar. While true, this can and is taken too far in the Timeline. The largest role, even dominant role, becomes there a domineering role. There is a distinct difference between dominant and donimeering. Nothing wrong with the first, but the second is myopic and suboptimal design when the larger setting is considered - and it is called "The Grand Sheldomar Timeline."
Second, the Timeline reads like a history major’s daydream of some european state writ different. I say different, not fantastic, because the timeline eschews much that the might be fantasy. It is a political/military recitation more than an exploration of any significant fantasy elements. It even ignores fantasy elements built into the World of Greyhawk setting and appropriate to the area.
Example - Religion in Keoland has no impact on politics or military affairs and is indeed “banned” from such by the founding charter. While a neat trick to make Keoland’s history easier to write and more “tiddy,” it is both unrealistic and wasteful of resources. There is not one religious conspiracy or plot of political or military significance in Keoland’s entire history in a world dominated by gods whose ideals and followers work zealously at cross-purposes. Unrealistic and wasteful of resources.
Example - The first reference to the Scarlet Brotherhood in the timeline dates only to 566 CY. Before that the Scarlet Brotherhood apparently was inactive in Keoland. Unrealistic and wasteful of resources.
The lack of fantastic elements woven into the tale is never more apparent than when reading the timeline to its conclusion. In Skotti’s reign, suddenly and for the first time, fantastic elements pop out of the woodwork on every side, while previously the timelime is almost exclusively a political/military recitation that largely echews anything remotely fantastic.
Again, the easy answer is that to have such elements intrude earlier would harm verisimilitude by making Keoland seem overly fantastic but this overstates the case. One need not duplicate the level of the fantastic seen in Skotti’s reign to have previously included something that might at least have foreshadowed it and not made it stand out in the Timeline as so jarringly out of place with all that has been written before.
Third, the Timeline has more than enough free space to be more inclusive of elements that quicken areas other than Keoland and which can accommodate more of the fantastic. However, the Timeline leaves these areas largely fallow - “nothing happened here.” The worst examples involve the Slumbering and the Neheli reigns immediately preceding Skotti and immedialy following the Tavishes. In these periods, little or nothing occurs, not even the political/military inventions that otherwise populate the timeline. Waste. Doubly so for these “dead zones” not only squander opportunities to let players other than Keoland shine and opportunities for more of the fantastic to be seen, they enervate Keoland itself by having all the relative “dead time” chalked up to the Neheli. The Rhola get all the good bits after Lorgyr and the Neheli get - nothing. This is bad design, particularly in a design that identifies only two ruling royal houses (excepting the two exceptions Skotti and Mandros) - one of which is the Neheli.
In sum, then, while the Timeline is an impressive piece of work, it has some very large flaws. Subsequent creations that look to utilize the Timeline should, therefore, not feel bound to the most prosaic reading of the Timeline. Subsequent creations should not repeat the shortcomings in the Timeline’s design. Subsequent creations should look to fix some of the issues with the Timeline. Not the least, and indeed most importantly, subsequent creations should look to make other players in the Sheldomar shine with their own light, not just the reflected light of Keoland, and should look to add elements of the fantastic lacking in the Timeline.
To this end, the Gran March Project offers a case in point. It can attempt to be “true” to the Sheldomar Timeline, in which case the Gran March will be of interest only to those desirous of playing military games where Keoland’s orders and interests are advanced. Or it can make the Gran March independently interesting outside any but the most necessary reference to Keoland. Anything but the latter, IMO, would be a waste of resources and time.
By the same token, the Knights of the Watch, as integral to the Gran March, can be made just another military order, very good at taking Keoland’s orders, or it can be something besides just that. If it is to be primarily just a military order, again, the appeal will be to those interested in such militaristic, “go complete the mission assigned to you,” roleplaying. It would be a waste of resources, IMO.
Fealty to the Timeline or its Keo-centric, mundane approach is not, IMO, purely a virtue. The Timeline is a wonderful foundation but it is not a completed structure. Build on the timeline, on the foundation. Don’t live in the basement.
Obligatory Warding Against Misreading -
While the foregoing might concieveably be read as an "attack" on either Sam or the Timeline, it is neither. 1) It bears repeating - the timeline is an outstanding accomplishment - it is, however, not perfect, nor complete. The foregoing critiques the Timeline in service of not seeing its flaws repeated in the Gran March Project. 2) In such manner, it bears noting that Sam has never indicated (to my knowledge) that anyone must adhere to the letter or spirit of the Timeline in any extrapolation from it. He has explained his thoughts, but has not (to my knowledge) demanded that others adhere to them. The issue is then not Sam. _________________ GVD
Although some LG references state the Knights of the Malagari were "attached" to the Neheli by Tavish II, that was not part of their design by me.
The history is as follows (without dates):
Neheli make a deal with Vecna.
Kas kills Vecna.
Neheli scrounge for fun stuff and find the Hand and Eye.
Malhel raid the Silent Tower and abscond with the Hand and Eye.
Insurrection of the Yaheetes reveals the Neheli-Vecna connections. The King makes it clear that the Neheli are to clean up their mess or he makes a public stink of it. (Which would basically mean civil war as the Keogh and Rhola destroy the Neheli.)
The Neheli create the Knights of the March to subdue the Gran March region. At this time it is merely another part of the Duchy of Dorlin. A secret core of the Knights of the March has the task of doing said clean up, destroying anything connected to Vecna, particularly anything related to his dealings with the Neheli.
Several hundred years later (yes, that long) Tavish I wants to expand to the Fals Gap to control the trade passing through it. He also wants better relations with the people of Geoff who have lingering "issues" with the Flan slaughtering KotM. He disbands the KotM, and use them as the core of the new KotW. The Neheli still require a group to hunt down anything related to Vecna., so the KotMalagari are created at the same time, incorporating the secret core of the KotM who continue on with their old mission.
The KotM were a Neheli organization. I expect they had some Oeridians and other Suel among the lower ranks, and of course the labor force was all Flan. Over a few hundred years, this changed. The major Oeridian influence in Gran March would have come later, as subsequent waves of Baklunish migration forced various Oeridian stragglers (like the ones who went north with the Tiger and Wolf Nomads) east and south. The greatest number would have fled there when the Brazen Horde pushed into what later became Bissel. (And which gave Tavish I the opportunity to annex Bissel.)
The KotW were a more open organization, as Tavish I wanted everyone contributing to the defense of the Kingdom. It should be noted, that he created the KotW to guard against the Baklunish and other incursions, but didn't create any organization to specifically guard against Furyondy, the Great Kingdom, or fight in the Amedio. So he was either violently anti-Baklunish, or had some reason to consider those other borders secure enough not to require such a force. If you remember that the border with Furyondy then technically extended from the Fals Gap across the northern end of the Lortmils between Verbobonc and Celene, that is a rather significant stretch of land. Likewise the border with the Great Kingdom may have only been wherever it was on the Wild Coast between Greyhawk and Celene and the Principality of Ulek, but it also included the short stretch between Onnwal and the Pomarj, again a rather significant border. Meanwhile the border with the Baklunish was the relatively small stretch of land around Thornward, which is apparently regularly breached.
The KotMalagari are pretty much exclusively a Neheli club. While some others may be allowed in, they never get close to leadership positions. There are simply too many dirty Neheli family secrets for outsiders to be trusted with them.
While I'm sure some Oerids might have been shoved east and then south by the Brazen Horde - I'd be inclined to put a more long-standing Oerid infleunce in the March - after all the Keogh had to come through the March to get to the plains of central Keoland. It's likely that some settled in the rich lands of the northern/eastern March as well - shoving aside some of the Flan there.
What makes me think this is that the gods Heironeous, Pholtus, Zilchus and the Velaeri (though it's likely they're not called that in the Sheldomar) are very orderly and settled, where as Yorodhi refugees from Ull driven off by the Horde would likely have favoured more chaotic gods - Kurell, Erythnul etc. Of course, the lawful bent of the March would weed out the chaotics in favour of the more lawfuls - but I don't see a recent Oerid influx so overturning the established Marcher culture to the point where there's only one or two Suel gods in among the major faiths there. That's not an influx of refugees - that's an invasion.
Given the strength of Oerid faiths there, it makes me think that the Oerids were on the ground floor when the March was settled.
As for Keoish hegemony being dull and wasteful - I disagree. There's already a fragmented empire surrounded by hostile former possessions in the Flanaess - it's called Ahlissa. What I most like about the development of Keoland since the LGG is that pains were taken to make it different to Aerdy and it's successors (inc. Furyondy and Nyrond etc). I think it's a disservice to say that this situation kills off all potential for adventure - that's not the case at all.
On the issue of more fantastical elements in the timeline - I think too little is far better than too much. When people start adding fantastical elements to history, they're often very heavy handed and it becomes a license for silliness. Leaving it out means that a GM can add it back in and flavour to taste.
The apparent increase in fantastical elements in recent times is an artifact of historical persective. you could also say that more stuff happened mroe recently - whereas in fact the amount of stuff or fantastical elements is constant, but histories tend inevetiably to be biased towards the recent, and events that are significant in the short term are rarely so in the long term.
I certainly agree that too much fantasy is worse than not enough. The 'fantasy' in the Great Kingdom is overwhelming. Its pretty substantial in the Marklands. There is no reason it has to dominate the Sheldomar to the same degree.
Though if you think recurring Vecna wars, regular necromantic conspiracies (Evard, the Toli, the Malheli), swordwraiths, giant invasions, and so on are "no fantasy", then I'm a thinking we aren't going to be on the same page ever.
The utter lack of religion is quite a stretch, I agree. But that's easily retrofitted.
Every area of the world does not need to be a bastion of blatant fantasy. Keoland and its environs lets you have a lot of interesting adventures, both political and of the traditional sort. The Rushmoors, Valley of the Mage, Dreadwood, Hool Marshes, Crystalmists, Pomarj, etc are all full of "fantasy" stuff.
Given the strength of Oerid faiths there, it makes me think that the Oerids were on the ground floor when the March was settled.
I agree with this in the alternative.
Woesinger wrote:
As for Keoish hegemony being dull and wasteful - I disagree. There's already a fragmented empire surrounded by hostile former possessions in the Flanaess - it's called Ahlissa. What I most like about the development of Keoland since the LGG is that pains were taken to make it different to Aerdy and it's successors (inc. Furyondy and Nyrond etc). I think it's a disservice to say that this situation kills off all potential for adventure - that's not the case at all.
This is not a zero sum proposition.
Opposition/rivalry to Keoland in the Sheldomar need not be identical to that facing Ahlissa, indeed it will be differnent for no other reason than that no one is suggesting dismembering Keoland as the GK was dismembered. Different does not necessitate a sheltered and protected, hegemonic Keoland. Straw man.
No one suggested that it "kills off all potential for adventure." Make that straw men. The point is that Keoland hegemony diminishes the states other than Keoland without adding anything equal to the possibilities that the hegemony precludes. You can still have adventures; the scope of possibilities is just lessened and is therefore less interesting ie duller due to Keoland hegemony.
Woesinger wrote:
On the issue of more fantastical elements in the timeline - I think too little is far better than too much. When people start adding fantastical elements to history, they're often very heavy handed and it becomes a license for silliness. Leaving it out means that a GM can add it back in and flavour to taste.
This I agree with whole-heartedly. At the same time, my opinion of the Timeline does not change because I have more than passing familiarity with both Gary Holian's work that has been published in various places and Samwise's CF contributions, which I have looked at more searching than some others. I trust them both to be able pull off a more fantastic timeline without making Keoland fantasy land. And lets be real - no SB until 566 CY in Suel Keoland - riiiight. That makes absolutely no sense and is one example of forgoing the fantastic in favor of the more pedestrian.
Woesinger wrote:
The apparent increase in fantastical elements in recent times is an artifact of historical persective. you could also say that more stuff happened mroe recently - whereas in fact the amount of stuff or fantastical elements is constant, but histories tend inevetiably to be biased towards the recent, and events that are significant in the short term are rarely so in the long term.
This could be an accurate appraisal but for the fact that there is no frame for the timeline. It is not presented "in character" and thus has no excuse for not setting out something more than it does (even allowing for a Chronical of Secret Times - which would not inherently extend past Gillum I's reign). No sale.
Individual tastes in a campaign will necessarily vary, of course. IMO, if the GMProject too literally adopts the Timeline approach, it may as well not bother as it would be Keoland Vassal State Roleplaying. Not my thing.
Keoland is, for me, interesting precisely because it is a dominant state that will draw a different sort of opposition/rivalry from its neighbors. Vassalage for the neighbors and hegemony for Keoland almost completely neuters everything that could make Keoland so interesting. If only Keoland matters and it faces no real significant challenge, why bother? It then becomes as Mortellan once so memorably described it in a CF Poll - "The Land of DM Onanism." I'd rather play with the possibilities. But suit yourself. _________________ GVD
. . . if you think recurring Vecna wars, regular necromantic conspiracies (Evard, the Toli, the Malheli), swordwraiths, giant invasions, and so on are "no fantasy", then I'm a thinking we aren't going to be on the same page ever.
The utter lack of religion is quite a stretch, I agree. But that's easily retrofitted.
Every area of the world does not need to be a bastion of blatant fantasy. Keoland and its environs lets you have a lot of interesting adventures, both political and of the traditional sort. The Rushmoors, Valley of the Mage, Dreadwood, Hool Marshes, Crystalmists, Pomarj, etc are all full of "fantasy" stuff.
The Timeline is not devoid of fantasy. You can also still have adventures, even interesting ones, in a Sheldomar where Keoland hegemony is the theme. You just have a sharply reduced pallette of coolors available to you.
With respect to the cited examples, reading the Timeline and asking the question - was Keoland ever really placed in peril? - the answer is "no." Was there a threat? Sure. Danger even, such that Keoland felt compelled to act? Sure. But were the stakes _EVER_ life or death? Okay. Was it ever even close to that? No. Essentially what you have presented are opportunities for Keoland to flex its muscles and beat up on a bad guy who was never a real menace. It's like the Fantastic Four facing The Beetle rather than Doctor Doom. Or the X-Men facing off against the Toad rather than Magneto. The quality of the opponent tells you something about how much the "hero" you are. The Timeline, where its sticks its toe in fantastic waters, never really brings the fantastic home. It is all too neat and clean more often than not. Credit, perhaps, the Silent Ones, another neat literary device that allows any discussion of Keoland to be untroubled to a large degree with magic. Easier to write a history like that but . . . this is D&D.
Between the Silent Ones suppressing magic and the Founding Charter suppressing religion, the most common fantastic elements are immediately and substantially muted. The Timeline falls somewhat short in then picking up the slack. _________________ GVD
I didn't think I was making straw men by backing the depiction of the Greater Keoish "commonwealth". As you said, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing (and I never meant it to sound so). I can totally see the vassal states getting uppity. Indeed the whole history of the end of Keoish imperialism is about the satellites telling the centre to get lost. Keoland and Geoff fought the Battle of Gorna over it! Celene expelled the Keoish garrisons and the Uleks and the Yeomen withdrew their military support. In the Giant troubles, Keoland played politics while Sterich and Geoff burned. The Sheldomar, even in canon, is by no means a one way street with Keoland shouting jump and the vassals saying how high. And that's not to say an ambitous Commendant of the March won't ever challenge the old order.
If development in the Sheldomar is Keoland centric, it's because before the GMP, the only place really being developed (outside LG) was Keoland.
The answer is to detail the satellites and especially what makes them different from the centre, while acknowledging the historical, political and economic links between them. All those raw materials supplied by Geoff, Sterich, the Uleks etc are all the more valuable because of the demand for them in the big Keoish cities. Equally, the cities can supply finished goods in return. The relationships between the states aren't contrived - they make sense, given canon history. That said, it's not to say that there haven't been, aren't and won't be tensions or even open breaches between the states of the Sheldomar.
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Individual tastes in a campaign will necessarily vary, of course. IMO, if the GMProject too literally adopts the Timeline approach, it may as well not bother as it would be Keoland Vassal State Roleplaying. Not my thing.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the GMP isn't worth the bother because it sticks to the canon of GM being a Keoish vassal. From what I've seen, they've done a great job in detailing the fabric of the country (really like those maps!). That alone is worth the bother. If you don't want Keoland Vassal State Roleplaying, then take the fabric of the country, throw out the bits you don't like and have at it with the Marchers standing up to Keoland and asserting vassal states rights.
I agree that no SB in Keoland before 566 CY smells a bit fishy. Then the whole canon for the SB being isolated for nearly 1,000 years smells to high heaven. It's very likely that that SB had covert tendrils all over the Flanaess in the years between their establishment in the Tilvanot and 566 CY. They might not have been pursuing the aggressive agendas that they do now, but they must have been there, watching and reporting, digging up bits and pieces of useful lore etc. They only became public in 566 CY (though the question is why, when they could just as easily have acted without revealing their hand - another unsatisfactory aspect of the SB in Greyhawk).
However, returning to the point, the presence or absence of the SB isn't really a matter of not having enough fantastical elements in Keoland. It's a flaw in the design of the SB themselves.
You can still have adventures; the scope of possibilities is just lessened and is therefore less interesting ie duller due to Keoland hegemony.
What adventures are possible in a campaign where the Gran March is completely or mostly independent of Keoland that aren't possible in a campaign where the Gran March is largely or somewhat dominated by the Black Lion Throne? In both scenarios, the Gran March will have local and foreign politics to deal with. The only difference that I see is that in the latter scenario the people of the Gran March will be more embroiled in Keoish politics than otherwise in addition to its purely local affairs.
I see this latter scenario as a broader canvas and a richer pallette. Keoish hegemony increases the breadth of possibilities.
IMO Woesinger nailed it. Hegemonic Keoland is not a straw man but the central dynamic of the region: They cannot achieve it (except perhaps Tavish I), but the satellites other states cannot get away from Keoland. Go Gran March Navy!
As far as fantasy elements in the timeline, I would like to know: Where is the Jacinth? That seems to me to be very much related to the issue of hegemony and particularly the KotW.
From tzelios’ Artifacts of Oerth: The Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty
“… the Brazen Horde moves into Ket, and by use of the charming power of the Jacinth, they make the bey of Lopolla to consider them as allies. From their base at Lopolla, the Brazen Horde now plunders Ket and Veluna until around 350CY, when Keoland successfully invades Ket, and that’s how the Jacinth passed into the coffers of Niole Dra … It will stay in Niole Dra, until near 582CY…”
Does it just stay in the coffers or do the Kings use its powers to hold together their empire, and if so, what when wrong?
. . . The answer is to detail the satellites and especially what makes them different from the centre, while acknowledging the historical, political and economic links between them.
Perhaps not well, but this is exactly what I'm saying. Agreed.
Woesinger wrote:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the GMP isn't worth the bother because it sticks to the canon of GM being a Keoish vassal.
I did not mean to say this. Rather, I hoped to say - the GMP is not worth the effort _IF_ _all_ the GM is to be is a Keoland vassal state. Of course, the GM has been and remains in large part a vassal state of Keoland but it can be (IMO) and is (IMO) also more than that. _________________ GVD
What adventures are possible in a campaign where the Gran March is completely or mostly independent of Keoland that aren't possible in a campaign where the Gran March is largely or somewhat dominated by the Black Lion Throne?
1) If the GM is largely independent, Keoland cannot simply tell it what it will or should do, as has been previously the case.
2) Keoland cannot simply march troops across the GM when it feels the need to do so. "No. You will not be having troops in Bissel." Etc.
3) When dealing with the Uleks, the GM can be another option for the demis when dealing with the humans if Keoland does not have hegemony. An contra-Keoland alliance? Etc.
4) In any matter beyond its borders an independent (and powerful - 18,000 standing army with 5 times that in a week if memory serves) GM must be negotiated with, not simply dictated too.
Each of these scenarious spawns adventures more meaningful and unique than if Keoland is the Elminster of the Sheldomar who will always be around and have the power to order affairs in the final analysis. And this is off the top of my head.
Thrown in a KoW, particularly one with the resources of the GM (and maybe Bissel) and wide membership throughout the Sheldomar, to include inside Keoland, and the GM is more than a counterweight to the Lion Throne's desires - it is a rival that cannot be discounted. Further development as I outlined in an earler post along this line makes for a highly unusual contest - powerful nation versus wide spread, powerful and mystically enlightened knightly order. THAT is available in the Flanaess nowhere else. And its not good versus evil. And it doesn't factor in the Scarlet Brotherhood. Strange bedfellows? All lost with a mere military order tenuously connected to a mere vassal state. _________________ GVD
Hegemonic Keoland is . . . the central dynamic of the region
Agreed that Keoland is the central dynamic. But does central dynamic, which it is, mean domineering? Overshadowing all else? I suggest the Timeline gives this picture of the Sheldomar. Keoland comes first, comes second and comes third. Everything else is fourth or worse. I further suggest this is NOT a good idea for reasons set out previously. Dominant does not and should not, IMO, mean domineering. _________________ GVD
It merely changes the types of adventures/politics available, not the quantity or diversity of said. And I really, really don't get where you think vassal states are uninteresting patsies. There is certainly more scope for action and differentiation as vassals than as the "keoish" counties.
Granted, if the real world is any example, a state as loosely united as Keoland apparently is in Sam's view should have erupted into all manner of internal crises, breakaways, and other chaos. The central authority is just too weak as portrayed to keep the nation together, IMHO.
But that still doesn't make your point hold much water. Gran March is no more likely to be "anti Keoland" as a putative independent state than as a vassal or full fledged member. IF anything, its more likely to freak out the less autonomy it has.
Keoland's geographic position is dominanting. THere isn't really a solid reason to not have them dominate the region. Nor is there any reason to believe that they have much of anything to threaten them except themselves. And there is simply no freaking way any timeline author, no matter how devoted, can or should be able to think up the sheer number of intrigues and crises that would have afflicted the nation in the time it has existed.
Besides, the big gaps leave room for the DM to add their own ideas in easily.
But does central dynamic, which it is, mean domineering? Overshadowing all else?
Absoutely not! That would not be nearly as fun.
The fun, IMO, is that they are trying to be domineering but they cannot be, largly because they are the good guys, notwithstanding the things they have done wrong. Your point that KotW/GM must be negotiated with because of their strength is correct, but as I see it, they would be negotiated with even if they were week.
I missed that bit about Phaulkon’s artifact destroying aspect. Looking back, Phaulkon is also a very popular deity in Keoland, the yeomanry, and the Ulek states apparently.
The more I think about it, the more sensible it seems that of all the knightly orders, the Knights of the Watch/Dispatch would not be based upon the Knight Protectors, as they really have nothing to do with them or the Great Kingdom, and the folk of the Sheldomar would develop their own traditions. The Knights of Holy Shielding and the Knights of the Hart however were started as splinter groups of the Knight Protectors in the outlying lands of the Great Kingdom before its fracturing.
This thread has sort of gotten a bit off topic. I don’t think it was intended as a discussion of Sheldomar development and political divisions so much as it was intended to eek out what information there is on the Knights of the March-Malgari/Darkwatch-Knights of the Watch and the origins and affiliations of these groups with regards to the most common religions followed by its members, what dates the groups were formed, and ultimately what their purpose was. Dissertations on the finer points of politics in the Sheldomar are not really necessary to the discussion- leave that to another thread.
For the whole "Vecna is a big secret that not many people know about" point to even remotely work the Malgari/Darkwatch (or forerunners of this group) would have had to have been in action immediately upon the fall of Vecna's empire for so much less information to have survived to have spread to neighboring lands. To not do this puts the whole placement of Vecna as much too recent, and the lack of knowledge of him as laughable.
I would propose that the Malgari/Darkwatch predates much of the Sheldomar politics being discussed here, and that only in later years, such as upon the founding of Keoland and the emergence of the Silent Ones that this group took a more active hand in the development of the power groups throughout the land so as to further their own longstanding goals. I would go so far as to say that this group was active during the final years of Vecna's empire, around the late -200's to early -300's CY. They were preparing to enable the fall of Vecna, though before they could make an actual attempt themselves the event occurred in a way that they could never have predicted (the Kas incident).
Going back this far sees the area littered with Flan, Suel, and Oeridian dissidents more than willing to have a hand in the eventual downfall of Vecna. This mixture of cultures sees no one specific pantheon being worshipped, though some are favored more than others. This leads to a variety of religious beliefs within the Malgari/Darkwatch members who are all dedicated to a common goal- the fall of Vecna. At this time the M/D really have no idea of what they are truly up against, and before they have a chance to fully reveal themselves(and probably get wiped out for all their trouble), Kas finally succumbs to the will of his sword and turns traitor. Inadvertently the Malgari/Darkwatch is saved, and all the work that they have done in preparation sees them in a place to drastically effect a change in the land through the suppression of anything having to do with Vecna.
Seeing as Vecna subjugated a variety of groups, it seems sensible to me that his most stalwart foes are made up of the same, hence my opinion that the Malgari/Darkwatch or Knights of the March should not follow a very limited group of deities or single deity. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
1) If the GM is largely independent, Keoland cannot simply tell it what it will or should do, as has been previously the case.
2) Keoland cannot simply march troops across the GM when it feels the need to do so. "No. You will not be having troops in Bissel." Etc.
3) When dealing with the Uleks, the GM can be another option for the demis when dealing with the humans if Keoland does not have hegemony. An contra-Keoland alliance? Etc.
4) In any matter beyond its borders an independent (and powerful - 18,000 standing army with 5 times that in a week if memory serves) GM must be negotiated with, not simply dictated too.
Having emissaries from the Black Lion Throne coming in and ordering the Gran Marchers around strike me as a very meaningful and interesting story hook which can be made "unique" by factoring in the the precise relationships between the courtiers of the March and the court of Niole Dra. Will they defy the royal edict? If not, what other recourses might they have?
1. The Gran March tells Keoland to enforce their edict with blood, if they have the guts.
2. The nobles of the March go to their relatives in the royal houses of Keoland and convince them to weaken support for the king's edict.
3. The people of the Gran March send assassins to effect regime change in Niole Dra.
4. The Gran March obeys the edict, but gets revenge in subtler ways.
5. The Gran March appeals to an adventuring party to sort out Keoland's demands without having to do it themselves.
6. Magnus Vrianian goes before the Council of Niole Dra and argues that his house should ascend to the Black Lion Throne.
And don't forget that entanglement is a two-way street. If the two nations are united, the nobles of the Gran March have a greater influence in the Keoish court than otherwise, with a corresponding larger canvas for courtly intrigue.
If the two nations are mostly or entirely seperate, what plot hooks remain? Only two:
1. The Gran March does as Keoland commands, but Keoland owes it a favor.
2. The Gran March tells Keoland to go screw itself. There are no repercussions. If there are repercussions, how is this substantially different from a Gran March with extensive fealty to Keoland?
Surely an entanglement offers more varied, more subtle, richer, and more unique story hooks?
Your point about the Uleks is interesting, but I daresay alliances with rival noble houses could be just as valid.
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a highly unusual contest - powerful nation versus wide spread, powerful and mystically enlightened knightly order. THAT is available in the Flanaess nowhere else.
I see what you're saying here, and we may be arguing along parallel lines. You see it as a question of a Gran March which is nothing more than Keoland's sword versus a Gran March which is more than that.
I'm looking at it more as a Gran March which is deeply entangled in Keoish politics versus a Gran March which is entirely seperate from it.
I wouldn't invoke Elminster in any discussion on a Greyhawk forum, as he's such an extreme example that the slide into strawmanhood is all but inevitable. Kimbertos Skotti doesn't regularly shag Wee Jas, or get rescued from Hell by her in a dramatic deus ex machina.
No it isn't. But you are making it one by your fiat declaration that such conflict is somehow less with a greater Keoland.
Straw man indeed!
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Different does not necessitate a sheltered and protected, hegemonic Keoland. Straw man.
Except as a federation with constant political infighting highlighted by two opposing royal families, Keoland is not sheltered, protected, or hegemonic.
Again, a very notable straw man from you!
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The point is that Keoland hegemony diminishes the states other than Keoland without adding anything equal to the possibilities that the hegemony precludes.
Prove it.
Rasgon has rather thoroughly shown that your analysis is significantly lacking.
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I trust them both to be able pull off a more fantastic timeline without making Keoland fantasy land.
How much more "fantasitic" would you like it to be?
And are you aware of just how much hasn't been fully defined or expressed in the timeline and essays?
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And lets be real - no SB until 566 CY in Suel Keoland - riiiight. That makes absolutely no sense and is one example of forgoing the fantastic in favor of the more pedestrian.
Yes, lets be real.
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-RING!!!!!
GH got the SB out the wazoo in FtA. I think we can well do without another ream of paper dedicated to their ubiquitous, universal, and campaign usurping schemes overwhelming development of the Sheldomar.
And just because there was no SB plot that merited a specific reference in anything else I have written doesn't mean there were none around prior to 566 CY. That is yet another, massive, straw man from you.
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This could be an accurate appraisal but for the fact that there is no frame for the timeline. It is not presented "in character" and thus has no excuse for not setting out something more than it does (even allowing for a Chronical of Secret Times - which would not inherently extend past Gillum I's reign). No sale.
No sale indeed.
Drop $10 grand in my lap and I'm sure I'll be thoroughly inspired to turn the 17,000 words of that outline into 100,000 words of a developed document.
Until then, you get what you pay for.
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Vassalage for the neighbors and hegemony for Keoland almost completely neuters everything that could make Keoland so interesting.
Well since it isn't vassalage but membership, nothing is being neutered.
Or perhaps you mean someone else's version of Keoland. But that most certainly is not mine, so describing it that way in the context of discussing my timeline and relevant elements thereof is nothing but . . .
Wait for it . . .
yet ANOTHER straw man.
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With respect to the cited examples, reading the Timeline and asking the question - was Keoland ever really placed in peril? - the answer is "no." Was there a threat? Sure. Danger even, such that Keoland felt compelled to act? Sure. But were the stakes _EVER_ life or death? Okay. Was it ever even close to that? No. Essentially what you have presented are opportunities for Keoland to flex its muscles and beat up on a bad guy who was never a real menace.
AH!!!!
So you are talking about some other timeline.
Let me see do a quick check of mine.
Lorgyr and the Dreadwood crisis - Keoland faced destruction from the united demihumans of the valley.
Mandros - Keoland faced dissolution from civil war.
The Yaheetes - Keoland faced destruction from the Hand and Eye.
The Toli - During the first war, Keoland faced severe loss for the first five years.
Tyrus - Keoland faced destruction from the Hand and Eye again.
The Short War - The only reason Keoland didn't face destruction is because Furyondy didn't want to conquer them.
The Sea Prince - Keoland faced collapse in a civil war.
The Tavish III collapse - Keoland lost the Pomarj, Monmurg, Yeomanry, Bissel, and the Uleks. That is around 1/3 of the territory, and 1/4 of the population. That sounds like a heck of a collapse to me.
How many more threats do you want?
How much greater, or more explicit, do the threats have to be for you?
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Agreed that Keoland is the central dynamic. But does central dynamic, which it is, mean domineering? Overshadowing all else? I suggest the Timeline gives this picture of the Sheldomar. Keoland comes first, comes second and comes third. Everything else is fourth or worse. I further suggest this is NOT a good idea for reasons set out previously. Dominant does not and should not, IMO, mean domineering.
That's because you persist in misusing "Keoland" in this context.
If Keoland is taken as this "greater Keoland," then it no longer applies to just that central area of the map with a bunch of vassals around. Instead, it means the entire government, and every single member state must be considered as a separate and distinct entity.
When you do that, you now have the following states active in the Sheldomar:
Bissel
Gran March
Geoff
Sterich
Dorlin (and additions)
Gradsul (and additions)
Flen
Cryllor
Linth
Zol (five separate parts)
Dreadwood
Good Hills
Lesser Provinces
Former Province (Yeomanry, 3 Uleks, Sea Princes)
I write "Keoland" and you see one government with no potential.
I write "Keoland" and see more than twenty governments jockeying for power and precedence.
And THEN you throw in international issues with Ket, Veluna, Ahlissa, Greyhawk, Celene, and the Scarlet Brotherhood.
If development in the Sheldomar is Keoland centric, it's because before the GMP, the only place really being developed (outside LG) was Keoland.
It is also because virtually all of the surrounding areas were settled and developed in a manner thoroughly dependent on Keoland.
Gran March - colony
Sterich - colony
Sea Princes - colony
Bissel - colony
Pomarj - colony
Uleks - half the population is humans who came from Keoland
Yeomanry - the place the founders of Keoland came from, and which was part of Keoland for over 450 years. (So it isn't like the US Civil War, but more something like Scotland suddenly declared independence tomorrow because of British Imperialism, and only if you count from James I/VI and not the Act of Union!)
Geoff - outside my creation of the County of Hochoch, this is the only Sheldomar nation not utterly dependent on Keoland for its core existence.
What was supposed to be the focus of the timeline?
And that isn't even considering the sheer number of dates fundamentally associated with Keoland as opposed to each of the surrounding nations.
The timeline began as a simple canon reference and grew from there. I worked with what was there. And what was there was 10-20 times the number of dates and incidents for Keoland than any other nation dealt with.
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However, returning to the point, the presence or absence of the SB isn't really a matter of not having enough fantastical elements in Keoland. It's a flaw in the design of the SB themselves.
P.
It also has to do with whether you want to play the SB Conspiracy RPG or the Sheldomar Setting.
That's why I "banned" the SB and Vecna from the first year of LG Keoland development. Some slipped in anyway, but the campaign is now LG Keoland, and not the LG SB or LG Vecna region.
Vecna was added to the Timeline for a number of reasons. Give it some time and a few more iterations, and I'm sure the SB will get mentioned as well.
EDIT: Almost forgot:
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Given the strength of Oerid faiths there, it makes me think that the Oerids were on the ground floor when the March was settled.
Actually, most of that came from the Veluna occupation and aftermath.
A lot of the Heironeous and Cuthbert worship came back to Keoland with the troops and refugees from Devarnish. That's why I assign a lesser Oeridian presence there before then.
ALSO, it gives them a distinct subculture, as the Oeridian influences are not derived from the Keogh. I also assign different Oeridians to the Uleks, Yeomanry, and Sea Princes on the same principle.
Sort of like suggesting some sci-fi world where the Anglo influences come from successive waves of Americans, English, Australians, Canadians, Welsh, and Scotch.
Though if you think recurring Vecna wars, regular necromantic conspiracies (Evard, the Toli, the Malheli), swordwraiths, giant invasions, and so on are "no fantasy", then I'm a thinking we aren't going to be on the same page ever.
Heh.
You'd think.
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The utter lack of religion is quite a stretch, I agree. But that's easily retrofitted.
ARGH!!!
Not an utter lack of religion.
A lack of a state sponsored, or supported religion.
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Granted, if the real world is any example, a state as loosely united as Keoland apparently is in Sam's view should have erupted into all manner of internal crises, breakaways, and other chaos. The central authority is just too weak as portrayed to keep the nation together, IMHO.
I dunno, the HRE held together for a good thousand years, and it was more of a mess than Keoland ever was.
Also bear in mind that however lossely united Keoland is, both the Rhola and Neheli have an exceptionally strong interest in keeping it together.
And, since conspiracy is needed, so do the Silent Ones . . .
You’d think, with all the straw, there must be some hay laying around somewhere to be made.
You don’t see anything of my point. Okay. I would not really expect you too. You wrote hegemonic, "protected" Keoland. Presumably because you like it that way. And you will defend it. And deny it is hegemonic, protected or that such is a bad thing in the alternative. Not unexpected.
Any impartial reading of the timeline will, however, support my original four points - to one degree or another, depending on the reader and his or her preferences.
Can I dissect the timeline and “refute” your most resent litany of identified “strawmen?” I think so. Would that persuade you? Probably not. And as you aptly note - “you get what you pay for.”
Moreover, the internet has a wonderful capacity for distortion or “drift” to an extreme in a contested “discussion.” I start at “A” and wind up at “M.” It is not my intention to denigrate either you or your work on the Timeline, as I’ve said earlier in this thread. But the invitation to “drift” in that direction is as evident to me as my original four points critiquing the timeline. I will decline the invitation having made my points and leave it there rather than get into a cycle of recrimination and rancor with you.
If I wanted to dog you or the Timeline out, the opening is there to get "extreme." But that was not and is not my intention. Sorry that you don’t care for my critique. I have complemented your work on the Timeline previously and don’t shrink from that but neither do I shrink from noting where there are holes, rather obvious ones, I believe.
I’ll only shrink from, in the “drift,” having drawn sharper distinctions, in an attempt to illustrate my point, than I think should have been necessary.
For the whole "Vecna is a big secret that not many people know about" point to even remotely work the Malgari/Darkwatch (or forerunners of this group) would have had to have been in action immediately upon the fall of Vecna's empire for so much less information to have survived to have spread to neighboring lands. To not do this puts the whole placement of Vecna as much too recent, and the lack of knowledge of him as laughable.
I would propose that the Malgari/Darkwatch predates much of the Sheldomar politics being discussed here, and that only in later years, such as upon the founding of Keoland and the emergence of the Silent Ones that this group took a more active hand in the development of the power groups throughout the land so as to further their own longstanding goals. I would go so far as to say that this group was active during the final years of Vecna's empire, around the late -200's to early -300's CY. They were preparing to enable the fall of Vecna, though before they could make an actual attempt themselves the event occurred in a way that they could never have predicted (the Kas incident).
You are missing a few things.
First, the time span of what was most critical to suppress, namely the Neheli-Vecna deal, is incredibly short. The Neheli founded Niole in -359, Vecna fell in -357, and Keoland was founded in -342. At this time, most everyone was primarily involved in surviving, and making sure their new Kingdom survived. When the Knights of the March were founded 182 years later, they were looking at barely more than 200 years of a secret that very few people knew of in the first place to cover up.
Second, I'd say you are underestimating just how devastating the succession wars were in Vecna's lands in the Gran March. The KotM, representing the resources almost exclusively of the Neheli, a small part of Keoland a mere 2 centuries after the migrations, were able to subdue the region. Perhaps if we assume a major gap in military technology and ability this would be reasonable. More likely we must assume those Flan did more than half the work of exterminating themselves for the KotM.
Third, I would suggest you heavily overestimate the ability to create, preserve, and store information at this time. Compare how much of Roman records were generally available by 1200 AD. And that's with a major organization working to preserve them. There was none in the Sheldomar, other than perhaps the Silent Ones, and they certainly weren't interested in sharing with anyone.
Finally, there is a very distinct difference between nothing being known of Vecna, and knowledge of Vecna being repressed in the Sheldomar. While I could go off on a digression about how Vecna's cult is supposed to be secret, and thus nobody should know much of anything about them to begin with, I will leave that aside for the moment and just note that those outside of the Sheldomar know as much about Vecna as is appropriate. It is just in the Sheldomar that not merely his faith, but his existence, is denied and suppressed by the government. Further, even that suppression doesn't mean NOTHING exists. All the relevant power players have extensive private libraries preserving such information. They simply don't discuss it with anyone. It is like suggesting nobody had sex in Victorian England, or Puritan New England, because such things weren't "proper." Of course they did. But decent people just didn't talk about such things.
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Seeing as Vecna subjugated a variety of groups, it seems sensible to me that his most stalwart foes are made up of the same, hence my opinion that the Malgari/Darkwatch or Knights of the March should not follow a very limited group of deities or single deity.
I'm sure there are others out there who oppose Vecna. The Old Faith in Geoff strongly opposed Vecna, and wants nothing to do with his legacy to this day. That doesn't automatically mean all such groups will get along, never mind combine forces.
I will note this, as has been suggested to me, if one wants to go for sheer, unadulterated, overwhelming irony, one need hardly go further than the Knights of the Malagari turning Vecna into an evil, arcane secret. Only that could exceed the dark secrets that separate Vecna's enemies, and keep them from uniting to stamp him out forever.
Unless of course that is, it isn't irony, but something engineered by the only one who benefits from it.
But that would be a major fantastic conspiracy theory, and obviously not be anything I might have seeded.
Sorry, Samwise, I do not mean a complete lack of religion *in Keoland*. That is obviously not the case. But a complete lack of religion or religious motivations in the politics and events of the Timeline as outlined so far is certainly the case and, imho, more than a bit of a stretch.
The HRE did stay together. But with *many* civil wars, succession crises, and in general a lot more internal crap than has so far appeared in the timeline. I was not objecting to a millenial old state, just one that seems to have largely stayed together with only one real civil war in that time period.
GVD,
You are remarkably free with the term 'straw man'. I could just as easily denigrate your positions in the same fashion. Saying something is a strawman is not the same as it being one.
Your argument is that by not making the periphery a source of regular (presumably military) opposition to the center, there is less that can be done. This is clearly not true, as several posters have indicated. I could reiterate mine (and Rasgon's) posts, but I think you can look them up if you care to.
The HRE did stay together. But with *many* civil wars, succession crises, and in general a lot more internal crap than has so far appeared in the timeline. I was not objecting to a millenial old state, just one that seems to have largely stayed together with only one real civil war in that time period.
Well, the conceit is that the Court of the Land gives Keoland a great deal of stability that Earthly nations generally don't have because it has the authority to remove unfit kings and give the throne to worthy successors. Politics within the Court replace civil wars to a great extent, and eliminate succession crises.
I don't know how realistic that is, but that's the conceit.
I think, aesthetically, I'd rather see a loud, flamboyant history with a lot of civil wars, coups, foreigners and commoners seizing the throne and the like, but the Council of Niole Dra makes a fairly good excuse for why this isn't the case. If William the Conqueror had made the Saxon nobles into a Parliament, signed the Magna Carta centuries early, and told everyone that Parliament had the sole authority to determine his successor and that it wouldn't be anyone from his line, but some other French family, English history would be pretty different. I don't really know if that would have prevented the War of the Roses or Oliver Cromwell, but neither do you.
As for religion, I tend to think some of it had some religious subtext, even if it wasn't on the part of the godless wizards who run the noble houses. For example, the assault on Ket was for many Oeridians a return home towards the region they migrated from - I do see a desire to free holy pilgrimage sites from the Baklunish. The Insurrection of the Yaheetes was probably religious for the Flan, at least somewhat. I don't know - where do you see possibilities for religious influence?
Yeah, there is no obvious direct parallel to the structure that Keoland has been given. But it seems rather closer to the HRE or Poland's elected monarchy than what you described. And both those were less than stable. Perhaps the Court of the Land, combined with the Silent Ones, is simply more succesful. I'm just inclined to think that's not very likely nor the most interesting way to go about it.
But detailing 1000 years of crises, especially given that multiple ones would likely dot the reigns of the weaker kings, is obviously rather a lot to ask of a simple timeline.
You don’t see anything of my point. Okay. I would not really expect you too.
No, I very much see your point.
The problem is, everything you cite is based on ignoring one or more very clear, very specific references in what I've presented.
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Any impartial reading of the timeline will, however, support my original four points - to one degree or another, depending on the reader and his or her preferences.
And yet at least two people (rasgon and Vomaerin) both clearly see the intent of what I wrote.
Are they partial for some unstated reason?
Or are their preferences merely flawed in some unstated manner?
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Can I dissect the timeline and “refute” your most resent litany of identified “strawmen?” I think so. Would that persuade you? Probably not. And as you aptly note - “you get what you pay for.”
I doubt you could. Many people have tried, but so far every attempt has been predicated on ignoring one or more elements of the canon material that I accounted for.
I'm sure you could repeat that, but of what worth would it be without having considered everything relevant?
There is a LOT more to what I've considered and developed for the Sheldomar history. It simply isn't in presentable form, or has been deliberately withheld as "secret." As long as you start any analysis by presuming there is no logical reason for something, you will never be able to see, or accept what is there.
Sorry, Samwise, I do not mean a complete lack of religion *in Keoland*. That is obviously not the case. But a complete lack of religion or religious motivations in the politics and events of the Timeline as outlined so far is certainly the case and, imho, more than a bit of a stretch.
Ah. That is probably because the Neheli Heresy didn't get a specific mention in the Timeline. And that is because most of the details of it were written by someone else for the LG campaign. As such, it would require a full fledged rewrite before I could add something related to the timeline.
The short version is:
Several incidents occurred around the time of the Council of Niole Dra that threatened the stability of the Kingdom, and led the nobles to declare that not only would they not support a state religion, they would also restrict the ability of any religion to establish a political or economic power base. (Through the simple expedient of prohibiting any faith from holding land as a religious organization rather than as individuals.)
However, if you look at things carefully, you will note that this is, in the long run, more of a legal nicety than any absolute exclusion of religion. The KotM and KotW are the most blatant example of this.
Also, the lack of constant, direct, references to it is part of an in-character approach to the timeline (despite GVD not believing such was present, both the Timeline and essays are all written from an "internal" viewpoint, despite not being actively presented by some NPC), where the history minimalizes any religious aspect.
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The HRE did stay together. But with *many* civil wars, succession crises, and in general a lot more internal crap than has so far appeared in the timeline. I was not objecting to a millenial old state, just one that seems to have largely stayed together with only one real civil war in that time period.
Heh. Check the timeline more closely.
Yes, there was only one really violent, really overt, civil war, but that is due to a specific cultural preference for internal compromise. Of course, that civil war laster 100 years, so it was pretty danged significant. (From the 361 CY declaration of independence by the Yeomanry to the 461 CY peace arranged by Tavish IV.)
There were however several other incidents, particularly the "relocation" of Hochoch nobles to Sterich, that nearly erupted into national warfare, or even the House Wars, which included the Rhola and Neheli turning on several groups that came through Slerotin's Tunnel with them.
As well, a great deal of the internal stability has come from the constant (again, despite GVD's view) external pressure. Looking to summarize:
(in Keoish years)
1-40 House Wars era, consolidating the interior
42-54 Demi-human crisis following the Malhel incident
150-181 Insurrection of the Yaheetes
189-385 Toli Wars (intermittent)
225-247 Yeomanry tensions
271-280 War with Tyrus
643-644 Brazen Horde
645-648 Last Toli War
692-702 Ket and Veluna War
705-722 Ket Insurrection
778-780 Short War
924-Present (591 CY = 933) Greyhawk Wars and aftermath - Giants in Geoff and Sterich, Ket in Bissel, Turrosh Mak in the Pomarj, Scarlet Brotherhood in Sea Princes and Dreadwood
So for the first 280 years, the Kingdom was at war more than a third of the time, closer to half the time.
The nice big peaceful period was the Slumbering, which focused on social, cultural, and technological development. When it ended, two short campaigns to deal with persistent problems were the preview to 100 years of civil war interspersed (and caused by) almost thirty years of expansionism.
The next peace didn't last 150 years before exploding into a continuing decade of yet more war.
So overall, Keoland has been under too much pressure to suffer internal collapse. If they don't hang together, they will all hang separately. After all, look at the Great Kingdom. Ferrond broke away, and they now have an evil Demi-power for a neighbor. Nyrond broke away, and the Ivid's seized power. A pair of rather good object lessons for why over 900 years of cooperation, however unpleasant at times, should not be thrown away casually. Not to mention the Hateful Wars, Geoff Civil War, and first Ket invasion and Evard seizing power in Bissel all show what happens to people who try breaking away from the core nation.
I will note that I wanted to add significantly more conflict to the whole timeline, albeit mostly directly outward, but Gary got all twitchy. He didn't want me offing half the Kings in war or by assassination. As it goes, such unusual internal stability winds up highlighting the cooperative nature of the Kingdom rather significantly.
For the whole "Vecna is a big secret that not many people know about" point to even remotely work the Malgari/Darkwatch (or forerunners of this group) would have had to have been in action immediately upon the fall of Vecna's empire for so much less information to have survived to have spread to neighboring lands. To not do this puts the whole placement of Vecna as much too recent, and the lack of knowledge of him as laughable.
I would propose that the Malgari/Darkwatch predates much of the Sheldomar politics being discussed here, and that only in later years, such as upon the founding of Keoland and the emergence of the Silent Ones that this group took a more active hand in the development of the power groups throughout the land so as to further their own longstanding goals. I would go so far as to say that this group was active during the final years of Vecna's empire, around the late -200's to early -300's CY. They were preparing to enable the fall of Vecna, though before they could make an actual attempt themselves the event occurred in a way that they could never have predicted (the Kas incident).
Seeing as Vecna subjugated a variety of groups, it seems sensible to me that his most stalwart foes are made up of the same, hence my opinion that the Malgari/Darkwatch or Knights of the March should not follow a very limited group of deities or single deity.
I like this as well, the idea that a group of Suel that felt ashamed of their own ancestral identity and formed a group dedicated to stamping out evil arcane arts sounds very plausible. That they would become the hidden core of a much larger group of knights at a later times also sounds doable. (In fact we don't have to look very far in our own history for examples.) My own take would be that they practiced arts specifically for combating arcane magic-users (Arcanamachs) and had a natural enemy in Vecna.
As far as the squabbling over Keoland and it's centrist view in Samwise Timeline I can understand both points of view. If the timeline had been based in the Gran March I think we could expect for the Gran March to be more prominent with respect to important events. I also see GVD's point that Keoland's importance torpedo's the need or want to to write on much detail about Geoff, GM, Bissel, Sterich, Yeomanry etc... My suggestion is to simply do it, Greyhawkers know good prose when they read it. If the history of the Gran March that GVD writes clashes with Samwise's timeline then we will do what we always do, pick the best of both and form our own timeline for our campaign.
My own opinion is that these countries are pretty sterile right now. You have Keoland (reminds me of England) and you have it's satelite countries, none of which have the same historical highlights that are so interesting when looking at the real world example like Scotland or Ireland.
(Note I am not suggesting that Keoland is England and the Yeomanry should be like Scotland, just that the Greyhawk history for these countries should be equally compelling as countries of our own world.)
Setting up endless straw men will get us all nowhere, however unless Keoland is pushed too the exterme either way, Keoland as written is flexible enough to encompass both pov as the tensions within the sheldomar shift and flow.
I personally like the example of Keoland since it serves as a counterview to the violence of the Great Kingdom history. I view the Sheldomar as a place where all nations including Keoland are always playing a complex game of give and take among themselves regarding rights and status which changes constantly as everyone jockey's for position as each seeks to maximize their influence without shattering the beneficial arraignment they all enjoy.
Obviously Keoland due to its size and history (as sam timeline) will take a prominent place within the sheldomar but that doesn't have to mean domineering especially since to maintain its influence Keoland wants the political support of the surrounding nations to maintain it own economic prosperity and security.
Back on point; I have no problem seeing the KoW as an onion with a Vecna worried mystical core, Anti-baklunish body and lately a more moderate giant troubles recruits. I see no need to narrow the patron of the order to a single deity. Given the conspiratorial nature of the Nehli and the Vecna aspect perhaps the original intent of the leadership was to use the anti-baklunish sentiment to further disguise the true goals of the order as well as attract committed recruits that could be used for their ends; unfortunately the anti-baklunish propaganda worked too well among the rank and file.
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