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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Jan 18, 2006
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:27 pm
Coffee in the Flanaess
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Not wanting to thread jack GVD, more than what has already been done...
Gary Gygax had coffee in his novels (don't remember the name or place) and there was a couple other canon sources for coffee in the Flanaess I think they were tied to Ket (probably that robusta crap).
As far as thinking coffee shouldn't be in the SCAP, I really don't think the authors went scourging through books for the flora and fauna native to the Amedio [I know there's tons of information out there dying to be found] and then decided on what it's trade industry should be...but there you have it...canon by happen stance. The other industry (diamonds) probably has no business being near a volcanic mountain range either but I don't like to pick this stuff apart ad nauseum.
I think it makes perfect sense when looking at the climate and high altitude...plus it works even better when a percentage of your initial settlers are displaced Baklunish (my own interpretation of who Surabar is.)
And of course YMMV.
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GreySage
Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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From: Michigan
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:55 pm
Re: Coffee in the Flanaess
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| Lassiviren wrote: |
| Gary Gygax had coffee in his novels (don't remember the name or place) and there was a couple other canon sources for coffee in the Flanaess I think they were tied to Ket (probably that robusta crap). |
As Woesinger is fond of pointing out, there's a town in Ekbir called Kofeh.
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Master Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:34 am
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Darn - you beat me to it! :)
Yeah - Coffee probably comes out of the Baklunish West originally. On earth, it originally comes from the Ethiopian Highlands, but can grow down to sea level (though it grows best at higher, cooler alititudes).
On the Oerth, it could be native either to the Sulhauts or the southern parts of the mountains of Mur/Bakhoury Coast. If you go with the last, it might have arisen among the Bakhoury and spread to the civilised Baklunish West. Just as modern coffee varieties take their name from the port they were exported from, coffee may take its name from the port of Kofeh, which might be a big trading hub for the glorious bean - especially towards the east.
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Apprentice Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:33 am
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Yeah, I actually tracked down that old WotC message board thread for the pertinent details.
Max Writer added this:
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| In "A Return to Falcon's Bazaar" by Noel Graham, Dragon 271, May 2000, there is a substance called kaffet that is essentially coffee from the Yatil Mountains and Ket area. |
It fits pretty well with my surmising that Surabar is a Baklunish elementalist. He probably had a caffeine addiction and brought the plants over at some point after finding out they like the high altitude.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:20 am
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My theory -
Coffee is a plant native to Hepmonaland. From there, it was carried to the Amedio region by the Olman, who have a presence in both places. From the Amedio, it made its way north eventually making its way to the Suloise Empire by way of Suel colonies in what is now the Hold of the Sea Princes/Yeomanry. In between, wars the Baklunish first discovered coffee via trade with the Suel and took to it with great alacrity, more so than the Suel ever did. Coffee thus spread from Hepmonaland to the Baklunish West (with its abnormally warm climate thanks to the Dramij Ocean etc.)
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Master Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:54 am
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Sorry GVD - I don't buy it. It's a shoehorn too far.
If the Imperial Suel knew of coffee - why is it that the Bakluni still cultivate it and the Suel survivors of Keoland/Urnst/Shar etc don't?
Why aren't there ancient coffee plantations in the Hold and the Yeomanry?
Why is that the Bakluni conveniently liked it better than the Suel?
There's too many assumptions here for Occam's Razor, methinks.
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:32 am
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Personally I saw coffee as Baklunish or even farther west, perhaps baklunish have some coffee production but act more as a trading center and gateway to the flanaess for the larger coffee producers further west.
Btw: Wasn't there an old thread specifical on coffee a while back?
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:55 am
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| GVDammerung wrote: |
| From the Amedio, it made its way north eventually making its way to the Suloise Empire by way of Suel colonies in what is now the Hold of the Sea Princes/Yeomanry. |
Why go north, when at the time, there is a tunnel connecting the Olman and Suel empires? – UK6
Why no coffee plantations in the Hold and Yeomanry? If he can stand the bitter taste it will leave in his mouth, Sam would be better able to justify it given his knowledge of the area, but there could be several reasons. The Firstcomers had more important things to grow. After it’s initial spread, the Suel were more into tea. The soil is not right for those areas. Coffee being highly ritualized carries with it a lot of cultural baggage, maybe the Firstcomers avoided on purpose. Some of those reasons apply to those that followed.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:57 am
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| Crag wrote: |
| Btw: Wasn't there an old thread specifical on coffee a while back? |
Coffee, Cocoa, Vanilla???, http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1582&highlight=coffee
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jan 05, 2002
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From: Sky Island, So Cal
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:48 am
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IMC, there is Coffee in the Yeomanry, and it had a pivotal role in the Yeomanry´s early annexation by Keoland.
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My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:08 am
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| Wolfsire wrote: |
| Why no coffee plantations in the Hold and Yeomanry? If he can stand the bitter taste it will leave in his mouth, Sam would be better able to justify it given his knowledge of the area, but there could be several reasons. The Firstcomers had more important things to grow. After it’s initial spread, the Suel were more into tea. The soil is not right for those areas. Coffee being highly ritualized carries with it a lot of cultural baggage, maybe the Firstcomers avoided on purpose. Some of those reasons apply to those that followed. |
I am not saying that there is not coffee in the Yeomanry in canon or that it should not be there. I have no idea. But I will note that Sam did give a reason why the Suel would not have originally brought it there. From the Firstcomers:
Settling the Valley
For the most part, the Firstcomers who came to the Sheldomar preferred to do as little as possible to build new homes. Wherever possible, they would conquer an existing settlement, enslave the survivors, and settle down to rule their new “ancestral lands.” If that was not possible, or if they lost such a battle, they would move on in an effort to find someone less able to defend their lands than the last people. Only in the most extreme cases would they bother trying establishing new farms and plantations, carving them from the vast forests that covered the lower Sheldomar in those days.
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Aug 10, 2002
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From: Buenos aires
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Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:15 pm
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IIRC there is a mention of wild coffe plants growing in the Abbor-Alz and the Bright Desert.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:04 pm
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| Woesinger wrote: |
| Sorry GVD - I don't buy it. It's a shoehorn too far. |
Perhaps. 
However -
| Wolfsire wrote: |
| Why go north, when at the time, there is a tunnel connecting the Olman and Suel empires? – UK6 |
And even -
| Mekorig wrote: |
| IIRC there is a mention of wild coffe plants growing in the Abbor-Alz and the Bright Desert. |
There are stranger things on Oerth than are dreamt of in (fill in the blanks) philosophy.  
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:26 am
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| Mekorig wrote: |
| IIRC there is a mention of wild coffe plants growing in the Abbor-Alz and the Bright Desert. |
Would not this fit in with the idea of a Hepmonaland origin with Olman migration dispersion. IIRC, there is the notion kicking around that there is an Olman temple or something like that in the Bright Desert. Perhaps it is just a zigurat that looks too un-flan. Coffee could then be easily explained as a legacy of their temporary presence so 1,500 years ago.
Or simply that they traded with Sulm.
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Master Greytalker
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Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:09 am
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Is there a hard reference for those coffee plants in the Abbor-Alz?
If there is, it just goes to show where lazy setting development gets you.
And the Olman hardly have any more of a monopoly on ziggurats than the Maya do.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:24 am
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| Woesinger wrote: |
| And the Olman hardly have any more of a monopoly on ziggurats than the Maya do. |
True enough.
GVD, you were a proponent of the notion that Olman went north. What canon references did you get that from? Rary the Traitor? Was it just the presence of ziggurats or was there more. If I can, I would like to look into the matter, and I know I can pick up that one on pdf. Any others?
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:29 pm
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| Wolfsire wrote: |
| GVD, you were a proponent of the notion that Olman went north. What canon references did you get that from? Rary the Traitor? Was it just the presence of ziggurats or was there more. If I can, I would like to look into the matter, and I know I can pick up that one on pdf. Any others? |
Actually, it is in a dungeon adventure where an abandoned Olman temple (dedicated to the Olman god of fire, whose name I cannot spell without looking but it begins with an "H") is discovered in the Abbor-Alz, which would perfectly match the coffee reference in Rary, mentioned above, as well as seeing the Olman move north. I think it is called "Fire and Ice" or something like that. This doesn't mean coffee migrated north from Hepmonaland with the Olman necessarily but there is some basis to postulate that it did so, at least as much as that it originated in the Baklunish west, IMO.
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Master Greytalker
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Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:48 am
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Must reread Rary the Traitor. The writer clearly was on an Arabic buzz, what with sticking Geshtai in the Bright and all the rest of it. Makes no sense at all, but there y'are.
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Grandmaster Greytalker
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Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:21 am
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Thanks, GVD, I am going to have to get my hands on that.
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Journeyman Greytalker
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Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:05 pm
Geshtai gets around!
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Hi once again,
Paul Looby wrote:
>Must reread Rary the Traitor. The writer clearly was on an Arabic buzz, what with sticking Geshtai in the Bright and all the rest of it. Makes no sense at all, but there y'are.<
I don't remember if I knew that when I decided to place Geshtai worship (albeit small) in South Province, but it does back up my decision with canon. Now we can see a path heading southeast that Geshtai's followers took. A pilgrimage? Searching for something for their goddess? Simply spreading the faith, or meandering aimlessly like the streams of their goddess tend to do? I never decided, but they all seem like good reasons to me to have a wide-ranging following for Geshtai (that, and her portfolio is so unique that other pantheons seem to have a gap for it).
Scott "-enkainen" Casper
Yak-Men like Geshtai...but they think she's hot...
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