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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Antipodes of Oerth or Designing Anakeri
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    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:48 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Except it then contradicts the statements about the Flan never having made any civilizing effort.
    And the implication that all the Flan kingdoms were long past.


    Yes. Those have to go.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:07 am  

    If the Sinking Isles folk were, in fact, elvish that would go a long way towards explaining the genocidal nature of the elf-fishpeople war. What if the Sinking Isles were a colony of the original elvish homeland (Ravilla or wherever) that got messed up with bad things (aboleth would be the obvious choice, though hardly the only one). The corrupted elves could be the Kuo Toa/Sahuagin (These races are cousins IMC) or at least associated with them.

    When word reached the homelands of what happened, an invasion force is sent to cleanse the Sinking Isles and all the related scaley types. when defeated, some scaleys flee into the sea (sahuagin) and others into the underdark (Kuo Toans). Some of the most fanatical elves become the sea elves to pursue the sahuagin branch.

    The fact that the sahuagin were once elves would explain the malenti. It would also explain why the 'modern' elves only have legends about the Sinking Isles: none of the modern elves or their ancestors were present when the Isles folk went bad.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:24 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    So elven priority is not as cut and dried as you wish to pronounce it . . . So there are your quotes for errors in Greyhawk canon.
    And there are citations refuting your attempt to establish anything released in a Core product by WotC as automatically applying to Greyhawk, as well as rebutting your citation of a single entry for a single race in a single sourcebook.


    Allowing this (I'll reserve comment on what is or should be considered from non-Greyhawk logo products for the moment), there is then a degree of equipoise. One can read matters one way or another. How then to decide which way to go?

    IMO, the First Rule of Game Design is - Any design choice to made from among equally available/consistent alternatives should favor the alternative that offers the most fun or interesting outcome for a setting.

    Which alternative offers more fun or interesting outcomes -

    A) Elves roughly (within 3 or 4 elven lifespans, an elven lifespan arbitrarily set at between 1,500 to 2,000 years ie 6,000 to 8,000 years) contemperaneous (or equal or less) with the rise of human kingdoms

    or

    B) Elves that predate the rise of human kingdoms by a vast amount of time (within say 10 to 20 elven lifespans - 20,000 to 40,000 years)?

    Obviously, either time frame is a long time in human terms and details are not even suggested that could make either interesting. However, IMO, two factors council strongly in favor of option B.

    1st - 3 or 4 elves lifespans, vs 10 to 20 elven lifespans (reducing the time periods involved to how many elves witnessed them and participated in the events of those times), seems a very short period in elven terms to fit in a wealth of detail appropriate to the leisurely pace of elven culture. It seems crowded, IMO, despite the actual number of years in each elven lifespan and in 3 to 4 such lifespans aggregated. From an elven point of view or the point of view of elven history, 3 to 4 lifespans is a very brief period. IMO, elves deserve a richer history than one limited to the span of son-father-grandfather-greatgrandfather.

    2nd - Ancient elves are a fantasy trope. A classic. A cliche, if one wishes to be prejorative. The trope is widely accepted, even expected, by players, who are usually fantasy readers, as well, where the trope began. If one is to vary from the fantasy "gold standard," established by populartity within the genre, one should do so very thoughtfully and for good reason. Misfires are legion. Dark Sun's savage desert elves. Eberron's necro-elves. Mystara's flaminco-elves. Al-Qadim's elves as everyman elves. Birthright's murderous awnsheliehn (sp) elves. None have ever got any traction. Dragonlance, however, sticking closer to the trope got some mileage out of its various "-nesti" elves. So, did FR (which borrowed at least the drow from GH and we haven't even mentioned the timing of the elf/drow split in a truncated elven history). While it is fair to say that none of the misfiring settings failed because of their abberant/different elves, it is fair to say those variant elves did nothing to help the settings survive. The limited lesson is that the closer one stays to the elfness of the fantasy trope, the more gamers seem to respond to such an elf.

    I am, obviously, highly resistent to elves contemporaneous with humanity within a range of 3 to 4 elven lifespans. I believe such antithetical to GH's roots in classic fantasy and unecessarily "stingy." While I'd be willing to contemplate contemporaneous elves, I'd need more of a reason for doing so that being different for being different's sake. I have not heard that.
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    GVD
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:24 am  

    Any choice that suddenly raises one race to absolute dominance of the history and development of the entire setting is the wrong one.

    No, the background material can not be so casually read one way or another within Greyhawk material. It is quite clear from the contradictions that would be engendered by reading the material as tens of thousands of years of elven dominance is simply wrong.

    Further, I call you on your continued selective representation of material, as well as your attempt to casually claim privilege in assigning value to reference material, and dismissing whatever doesn't fit your predetermined version.

    An elven lifespan can not arbitrarily be set at 1,500 to 2,000 years. By the PHB, an elven lifespan is 350 to 750 years. That is set in the rules. Further, elves are adult at 110 years, setting that as the length of a generation. That gives, within 6,000 years, 8-15 elven lifespans, and nearly 60 generations. In terms of portraying a "timeless" quality to the elves, that gives them a very direct connection to earlier times, when population pressure was lower, and they could well believe they were "alone" in the world.
    I will leave aside for the moment the pretense that those 6,000-8,000 years of the rise of humanity do not account for another 10,000 or so years of prehistoric existence. I am sure the very concept of elves ever being mere neolithic hunter-gatherers is unacceptable to you.
    This is part and parcel of your "allowing" reference to non-Greyhawk material while presenting such as the basis for your position. And this is directly related to your demand that nobody dismiss any published reference because it is contradictory or they find it aesthetically displeasing. Are you then immune to your own requirement? I can not stop you from claiming to be, but I will certainly not accept it.

    As for classic elves of mythology, the immortal Birthright elves and their Gheallie Sidhe are significantly closer to the classic depiction of Celtic fey elves than any elves in core D&D. Indeed, although you obviously don't see it, they are significantly closer to what you wish to impose on the setting. I'd call that a rather significant bit of traction.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:58 am  

    Tolkein's elves seemed to be pretty welll developed for only having 7 generations from the first elf awakening to the Last Ship. Just a thought.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:09 am  

    Where to begin. Happy At the beginning! Laughing

    Samwise wrote:
    Any choice that suddenly raises one race to absolute dominance of the history and development of the entire setting is the wrong one..


    I agree and I am not suggesting this for the elves. Elven culture is not dominating in the way human culture is. Complete Book of Elves and Races of the Wild do a good job in setting this out. Elves do not dominate the landscape or environment as humans to and their existence over a long period is within elven, not human, norms. You are imaging human behaviors as appropriate to elves. Not so.

    Samwise wrote:
    No, the background material can not be so casually read one way or another within Greyhawk material. It is quite clear from the contradictions that would be engendered by reading the material as tens of thousands of years of elven dominance is simply wrong.


    ROFLMAO! GH is nothing if not filled with contradictions, anachronisms and just plain wierdness. None of which invalidate the setting purely on account of their existence. There is no right or wrong, Sam. It is not zero sum or black and white. Greyhawk is many shades of gray with many possible reads. Given that, IMO, one looks for the best outcome in terms of fun or interest. Consistency is and never has been a forte or even a driver in GH. Its nice when you have it but it is not required. Inconsistency is the norm and the challenge, the appeal, is to draw order out of the chaos, recognizing that without the chaos there would have been much less to try to draw order from. GH's chaos, its inconsistencies, are a strength, even as they can be a weakness if over done. If you will pardon the phrase, its a question of balance, not absolutes. Wink

    Samwise wrote:
    Further, I call you on your continued selective representation of material, as well as your attempt to casually claim privilege in assigning value to reference material, and dismissing whatever doesn't fit your predetermined version.


    Comme il faut! I could say the same to you. Smile However, I think I am rather scrupulous in 1) identifying my opinion as my opinion and not fact and 2) identifying the definition of "canon" I am using and why. I'm filling posts with it repeating myself. You could take a lesson, IMO.

    Samwise wrote:
    An elven lifespan can not arbitrarily be set at 1,500 to 2,000 years. By the PHB, an elven lifespan is 350 to 750 years.


    That would be which PH? (Rhetorical question. Just saying, just in case) More inconsistencies it seems. Laughing I think it an open question how one sees elven age, depending on edition. Certainly, elves have "classicly" as in earlier editions had longer lifespans.

    Samwise wrote:
    I am sure the very concept of elves ever being mere neolithic hunter-gatherers is unacceptable to you.


    Actually, I have no problem with that. The myths run both ways. More inconsistencies.

    Samwise wrote:
    This is part and parcel of your "allowing" reference to non-Greyhawk material while presenting such as the basis for your position. And this is directly related to your demand that nobody dismiss any published reference because it is contradictory or they find it aesthetically displeasing. Are you then immune to your own requirement?


    I am not immune. I acknowledge a GH reference as a GH reference. Given inconsistencies or alternatives among GH references, one then looks to degrees of "canon," on which opinions will vary (despite your contrary assertions). You are the gentle soul attempting to exclude anything without a GH logo so to speak. I am open to a discussion of the possibilities in any GH reference as well as incorporation by reference, as is the case with the Complete Book of Elves. If you are not familiar with the doctrine of incorporation by reference, briefly - if A refers to B, including B as some part of or relevant to B, B is said to be incorporated by reference into or relevant to A, to the extent of the reference. This is a common method for reading and construing texts.

    Samwise wrote:
    As for classic elves of mythology, the immortal Birthright elves and their Gheallie Sidhe are significantly closer to the classic depiction of Celtic fey elves than any elves in core D&D. Indeed, although you obviously don't see it, they are significantly closer to what you wish to impose on the setting. I'd call that a rather significant bit of traction.


    Traction with the public. Birthright, for a variety of reasons, had none and its elves did not help matters. But anon. I am certainly not attempting to impose Birthright elves on GH. If I were, I would say so. I have not and do not want Birthright elves in GH. This is your imaging. For an absolutist, you have a fertile imagination.
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    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:13 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Traction with the public. Birthright, for a variety of reasons, had none and its elves did not help matters.


    I think its elves actually did help make it more popular than it would otherwise have been, at least by my own personal tastes and those of several people I've talked to. It just wasn't enough to pull Birthright out of the hole it was in for other reasons (being a fairly generic fantasy world in a genre already filled with them, being perceived as more of a political simulation than an RPG).
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:30 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I agree and I am not suggesting this for the elves. Elven culture is not dominating in the way human culture is.


    Well, you are. As you are assuming all those things about humans which are not necessarily true.
    And of course you sidestep just how elves manage to live on a large area and not dominate the landscape or environment. I guess they don't build, or secure themselves from attack or anything. Oh wait, they do. So I guess they are no different from humans in that regard.
    And of course you ignore everything you said about elves being displaced.
    No, you are trying to have it both ways here and it just doesn't work.

    Quote:
    ROFLMAO! GH is nothing if not filled with contradictions, anachronisms and just plain wierdness. None of which invalidate the setting purely on account of their existence. There is no right or wrong, Sam.


    Then why do you keep calling alternate views of elves wrong GVD?

    Quote:
    Comme il faut! I could say the same to you. Smile However, I think I am rather scrupulous in 1) identifying my opinion as my opinion and not fact and


    You mean the way you keep denying this is all your personal preference?

    Quote:
    2) identifying the definition of "canon" I am using and why. I'm filling posts with it repeating myself. You could take a lesson, IMO.


    My definition of canon was posted a long time ago.
    As for a lesson, I have indeed learned not to do what you do.

    Quote:
    That would be which PH? (Rhetorical question. Just saying, just in case) More inconsistencies it seems. Laughing I think it an open question how one sees elven age, depending on edition. Certainly, elves have "classicly" as in earlier editions had longer lifespans.


    And so once again you seek to force your choice for what to use among conflicting material without even acknowledging the differences until challenged, or allowing discussion.
    Very nice.

    Quote:
    Actually, I have no problem with that. The myths run both ways. More inconsistencies.


    But they won't be able to be wizards!
    The shame!

    Quote:
    I am not immune. I acknowledge a GH reference as a GH reference.


    Then why do you selectively quote them only when it suits your purposes?

    Quote:
    Traction with the public. Birthright, for a variety of reasons, had none and its elves did not help matters. But anon. I am certainly not attempting to impose Birthright elves on GH. If I were, I would say so. I have not and do not want Birthright elves in GH. This is your imaging. For an absolutist, you have a fertile imagination.


    Really? Is that why the LeShay showed up in the ELH? They owe much to that BR version. Likewise other fey connected to the Wild Hunt. You are being selective again, ignoring "incovenient" material.
    And yes, in many ways, you are trying to impose BR Elves on GH.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:53 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    As you are assuming all those things about humans which are not necessarily true.
    And of course you sidestep just how elves manage to live on a large area and not dominate the landscape or environment. I guess they don't build, or secure themselves from attack or anything. Oh wait, they do. So I guess they are no different from humans in that regard.


    Elves are not humans and do not do things the same way humans do. Their impact on the environment is markedly different. This is fairly well set forth in the Complete Book of Elves and Races of the Wild. Elven dominion does not mean the same thing to an area as human dominion.

    Samwise wrote:
    Then why do you keep calling alternate views of elves wrong GVD?


    Not wrong as violative of canon per se. Violative, IMO, of the generally accepted norms in D&D that apply to GH, directly (allowing for your reading in the alternative) and via incorporation by reference, which in turn reflects fantasy tropes that have proven highly popular and which should not be disregarded without due consideration, good cause and reason to believe the alternative will be as good if not better. I have not heard anything that suggests a better elf.

    Samwise wrote:
    You mean the way you keep denying this is all your personal preference? . . . And so once again you seek to force your choice for what to use among conflicting material without even acknowledging the differences until challenged, or allowing discussion.
    Very nice.


    I am applying the material as I have found and quoted it to the topic. There is no personal preference there. And I have acknowledged your variant reading. I asked for citations and reasoning and you provided such. I just am not agreeing with your reading. Smile

    Samwise wrote:
    Then why do you selectively quote them only when it suits your purposes?


    Come on, Sam. I present my position. And when I'm demonstrably wrong, I say so, as I did to Voremaine(sp) with respect to total number of elven generations. I didn't selectively ignore the material that supported Vor's position; I was unaware of it. And I didn't wait until he cited it to me. I subsequently found it on my own and then acknowledged to Vor that I had been in error. A point, Vor very politely accepted, everybody making mistakes or learning things they did not know or did not recall on ocassion, me included. Others present there positions. As Vor did. There is no selectively in the sense of a willful disregard for the facts. You just seem to me to want everyone to acknowledge your position as the only supportable position. There are multiple supportable positions and I just find your's not well taken, even as I have acknowldged that there is some support for it, GH's inconsistencies again. But there you are.

    Samwise wrote:
    And yes, in many ways, you are trying to impose BR Elves on GH.


    At the risk of being called selective again, I'll not get into a BR discussion but focus on the above which cuts to the relevant discussion.

    If you will allow me the priviledge of knowing my own intent, I am not attempting to impose BR elves on GH.

    First, there is no imposition. There can be none as I am in no manner in charge of any aspect of GH. I am speaking as a GH consumer with other GH consumers. I can impose nothing on anyone as regards GH.

    Second, my position to date has been for elves that predate humanity by 10 to 20 elven generations as opposed to 3 to 4 generations or less. This hardly constitutes BR elves. Most notably, if I need to go on, I have not advocated for anything like the attitude of the BR elves, perhaps their most distinguishing feature.

    I think you are reading into my posts agendas that are not there. I have no agenda and my point is very limited - to the period by which elves predate humans.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:15 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Elves are not humans and do not do things the same way humans do. Their impact on the environment is markedly different. This is fairly well set forth in the Complete Book of Elves and Races of the Wild. Elven dominion does not mean the same thing to an area as human dominion.


    Which is a great way of saying absolutely nothing. Just saying they are different doesn't make them different if you don't present anthing more. And the more you present makes them just the same as humans.
    I am well aware that elves are not humans do not do things the same way humans do. Of course, when I suggested elves had a vaguely insect-like caste structure, people said I couldn't make elves different like that. That they couldn't be Chaotic if they were like that. As with most other things you advocate, I guess only certain people get to decide how elven diferences are portrayed.

    Quote:
    Not wrong as violative of canon per se. Violative, IMO, of the generally accepted norms in D&D that apply to GH, directly (allowing for your reading in the alternative) and via incorporation by reference, which in turn reflects fantasy tropes that have proven highly popular and which should not be disregarded without due consideration, good cause and reason to believe the alternative will be as good if not better. I have not heard anything that suggests a better elf.


    A trope is not a cliche unless you fail to add anything distinctive to it. You wish to present a cliche elf. I wish to present a fantasy trope elf that is distinctive, interesting, and creative. Given your preference for a cliche over such, whether or not you think it is a "better" elf is irrelevant to me.

    Quote:
    I am applying the material as I have found and quoted it to the topic. There is no personal preference there.


    and,

    Quote:
    Come on, Sam. I present my position.


    Which is the very definition of personal preference.

    Quote:
    At the risk of being called selective again, I'll not get into a BR discussion but focus on the above which cuts to the relevant discussion.

    If you will allow me the priviledge of knowing my own intent, I am not attempting to impose BR elves on GH.


    Oh I am sure you know your own intent.
    What you don't know is BR elves, or the full complexity of the tropes involved in them and elves in general. That's why you don't realize that you are in fact presenting BR elves for GH.

    Not that such is bad mind you. A good bit of Gheallie Sidhe is always a fun thing to keep elves from being just a pack of flitting, tree-hugging, twits. But it is not necessary to make elves the rulers of the world for them to have a nice bit of anti-social potential. Again, another example of how you fail to appreciate the complexity and potential of the tropes involved.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:36 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Elves are not humans and do not do things the same way humans do. Their impact on the environment is markedly different. This is fairly well set forth in the Complete Book of Elves and Races of the Wild. Elven dominion does not mean the same thing to an area as human dominion.


    Which is a great way of saying absolutely nothing. Just saying they are different doesn't make them different if you don't present anthing more. And the more you present makes them just the same as humans.
    I am well aware that elves are not humans do not do things the same way humans do. Of course, when I suggested elves had a vaguely insect-like caste structure, people said I couldn't make elves different like that. That they couldn't be Chaotic if they were like that. As with most other things you advocate, I guess only certain people get to decide how elven diferences are portrayed.


    Sam, you are loosing me, here. I gave you the names of the two references that fill in the blanks. And as for insectoid elves? Huh?

    Samwise wrote:
    A trope is not a cliche unless you fail to add anything distinctive to it. You wish to present a cliche elf. I wish to present a fantasy trope elf that is distinctive, interesting, and creative. Given your preference for a cliche over such, whether or not you think it is a "better" elf is irrelevant to me.


    Wait. I was arguing that you were arguing that I was saying that you said I said you but then you added . . . Nuts. I can't keep track of your "position" anymore.

    "A fantasy trope elf that is distinctive, interesting and creative." That I get and that I can agree with without reservation.

    Samwise wrote:
    Which is the very definition of personal preference.


    "One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small, and the one that mother gives you doesn't do anything at all. Go ask Alice . . ." Or Samwise. We are though the looking glass here. Sorry, Sam but I just can't follow you any further down this rabbit hole.


    Samwise wrote:
    Oh I am sure you know your own intent.
    What you don't know is BR elves, or the full complexity of the tropes involved in them and elves in general. That's why you don't realize that you are in fact presenting BR elves for GH. . . . Again, another example of how you fail to appreciate the complexity and potential of the tropes involved.


    Oh. I see. I'm dumb. That explains everything. Now, why didn't I see that? OH WAIT! It must be because I'm dumb! Now, if I only I wasn't too dumb not to know how dumb I am. But that's what you get when you're dumb. Hey Moe! ::nuck, nuck, nuck, nuck::

    ::GVD does the Curly Shuffle out of here:: Cool
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:46 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Sam, you are loosing me, here. I gave you the names of the two references that fill in the blanks. And as for insectoid elves? Huh?


    You mean I am thoroughly refuting you. I understand.
    You gave the name of two references that present a biased, incomplete, view of the situation. They do not fill in the blanks, they create massive empty spaces where everything else goes.
    As for my elves, if you have forgotten it merely shows how little you really pay attention to what others suggest.

    [quoteWait. I was arguing that you were arguing that I was saying that you said I said you but then you added . . . Nuts. I can't keep track of your "position" anymore.[/quote]

    My position is quite clear. It is yours that you continually muddy in an attempt have it hold up against everything I present that you have tried to ignore.

    Quote:
    "A fantasy trope elf that is distinctive, interesting and creative." That I get and that I can agree with without reservation.


    Then why do you advocate one that is the standard, boring, and unimaginative?

    Quote:
    "One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small, and the one that mother gives you doesn't do anything at all. Go ask Alice . . ." Or Samwise. We are though the looking glass here. Sorry, Sam but I just can't follow you any further down this rabbit hole.


    Double talk won't help you. My statements were quite clear, as were yours that I quoted.
    You wish to dismiss everyone else as pushing their personal preferences while trying to claim that yours are the "real" versions in all texts, and enjoying the absolute support of the overwhelming majority of gamers who haven't said anything.
    You aren't diving down a rabbit hole. You are sitting on a wall telling everyone that words mean what you choose them to mean.
    I will simply note that all the King's horses (selective quotes) and all the King's men (personal preference in canon) won't put Humpty Dumpty (cliched elves) back together again.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:45 pm  

    It is not clear to me that it is harmful for a grey elf to concievably have a great grandfather who was part of the war against the scaley types and a grandfather who fought the drow war. It is difficult to conceptualize in a practical sense (ie what it would mean for elf culture and knowledge), but its not inherently a problem.

    By the way, the elves have clearly existed more than 6000 years or so. They arrived in the Flanaess at that point, well able to kick Kuo Toan butt in a war. What is unanswered is where they came from (Ravilla in Eastern Oerik? A heretofore unmentioned Solnor landmass? Another plane? Hmm, or I suppose spontaneous creation at that point could be an option).

    As far as lifespan goes, the "maximum" lifespan (ie the age that is the equivalent of being 120 years old as a human) varies in the 1e DMG quite severely based on subrace (the difference between the shortest and longest lifespan is 1000 years). That said, a generation of even the longest lived elf race (gray elves) is only about 250 years. So there is something like 24 generations of gray elves since the arrival in the Flanaess. That seems plenty long enough of a time for me.

    Twenty four generations is plenty of time for significant cultural development, if one desires that in one's elves. Whereas the 'ancient wise ones' allow for stable elf culture over all that time, if that is what one prefers. And there are even more generations of the less long lived subraces.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:56 pm  

    I would place the end of the Drow/Faerie war at OC 1, or -4462 CY. Relatively recently. The war against the kuo-toa I would place much, much earlier: prior to the c –14,400 date of valley elf occupation of the Vale of the Mage, at least. The "Great Embarkation" article implies extreme antiquity; the Neanderthal equivalents had not yet died out, and although the remote ancestors of the Flan were around, the Flanaess was still in its Age of Reptiles. 50,000 years ago (when Neanderthals disappeared in Europe) isn't too much, though admittedly it doesn't have to be that far back. The problem, though, is that it means no one is likely to remember it. Can quaggoths hold a grudge that long? Probably not.

    This isn't to glorify elves (dwarves, humans, and gnomes are just as old) - it just seems a reasonable scale to me. But I like geological spans of time in fantasy and science fiction.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:18 pm  

    Without much to reference at hand currently, how would the 'Leaving' instituted by the People of the Testing (?) factor into this discussion of age and cultural development. IIRC the elves actually do a Tolkien like retreat to the Spindrifts or maybe farther afield?
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:35 pm  

    I dislike the 14,400 year date in Valley of the Mage.
    I will stick with a 10,00 year limit and "starting point" I presented in my prehistory. The elves came to the Flanaess a few thousand years later, the Elf-Drow split started 6-7,000 years, and the valley elves split off 2-3,000 years ago. That is more than enough time to have them do whatever is needed without having to worry about endless years of endless years.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:41 pm  

    I seem to recall some throwaway sorts of comments implying that neanderthal types still existed in the Crystalmists/Hellfurnaces (I think it might have been something dubious like encounter charts in one of the versions of the Against the Giants modules). Not that I'm particularly concerned about that, just thought I'd mention it.

    I don't mind long time scales in fantasy either. I do dislike fantasy nations that have survived longer than recorded real world history, which seems to be rather a common sort of thing in other game worlds. Again, that's not really relevant here, just a comment.

    As to the substance of your post, it certainly could be a much longer period of time. I was envisioning it being rather shorter, however. Six or seven thousand years back for the Great Embarkation and the drow war somewhat after the the foundation of the City of Summer Stars and other early elf kingdoms (say 4000 years ago).

    There are issues with that, of course. The 14400 figure for the Valley elves, who are in some materials said to originate in the Drow-Elf war. But that number is difficult to reconcile with any other hard number given for the elves. You pretty much have to assume the elves founded their valley kingdom long before any other elves did anything in the Flanaess. Possible, but a bit iffy. Also, the drow materials in GDQ claim the drow are all but forgotten even amongst the surface elves. Which would seem unlikely if they've only been gone for 4 or 6 millenia. That's not *that* long for the elves. Probably a lot of misinformation and legends (unless you posit superior elvish librarianship, which is not uncommon) but hardly long enough to make it a disputable myth that many don't even know about I'd think. Unless you consider elvish scholarship/tale telling to be pretty weak or imagine a conspiracy to blot the memory out.

    As you say, the big issue with a 50k stretch is that its hard to reconcile with even the elves remembering it clearly, much less the quaggoth and other short lived races.

    Really, to explain the Flanaess history (regardless of exactly when you place the Great Embarkation) you need to posit that the elves are pretty much isolationist by nature, with only the kuo toa/sahuagin stuff as the major exception. Otherwise you have to wonder what these elf 'nations' were doing all this time when Tostenhca, Exag, The Isles of Woe, and all the rest were around. Or you need to push them back even farther into pre history so the elves weren't around.

    An interesting question is how much of the reality of these things are known to elvish scholars? Celene's been around a long time by any measure and never been sacked or burned. If the elves write histories and the like, its got to have a ton of material.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:47 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Without much to reference at hand currently, how would the 'Leaving' instituted by the People of the Testing (?) factor into this discussion of age and cultural development. IIRC the elves actually do a Tolkien like retreat to the Spindrifts or maybe farther afield?


    Well, *some* religious fanatics seem to be doing some sort of Tolkein thing. Gods know why. Other than the suggestion that they 'arrived from somewhere else', there is nothing to associate GH elves with any sort of maritime tradition or backwards looking nature ala the Eldar.

    There seems to be some movement to make Sehanine Moonbow the nutcase of the Seldarine.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:02 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I don't mind long time scales in fantasy either. I do dislike fantasy nations that have survived longer than recorded real world history, which seems to be rather a common sort of thing in other game worlds. Again, that's not really relevant here, just a comment.


    That is actually a major factor in why I reject those massive ancient dates. Further, by backdating from 591 as around 1491 (give or take a century) we get the Twin Cataclysms coming around the fall of the Roman Empire, and the Suel Calendar around the claimed start of human history. That means no tech staganation is needed, except for gunpowder. That works quite well for me.

    Quote:
    Also, the drow materials in GDQ claim the drow are all but forgotten even amongst the surface elves. Which would seem unlikely if they've only been gone for 4 or 6 millenia. That's not *that* long for the elves.


    I reconcile this as a combination of elven "attitude" that has them utterly refuse to acknowledge anything they don't like, and things like real world destruction of all records by new dynasties.
    Also, noting the real world tech eqivalences I noted above, this would have happened when people barely had developed writing. There are no records because the elves never used clay tablets, so none have survived.

    Quote:
    An interesting question is how much of the reality of these things are known to elvish scholars? Celene's been around a long time by any measure and never been sacked or burned. If the elves write histories and the like, its got to have a ton of material.


    See above. If the elves have always used organic record keeping devices, they are virtually all rotted away. Really, how many actual hard copy records do we have from 3,000 years ago or 6,000 years ago? And how many of the languages they are written in survive? Maybe modern elven dates from after the Twin Cats, and none of those old records is even readable without a comprehend languages. (As in fact much of classical Chinese is completely incomprehensible to any but scholars.)
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:39 pm  

    Well, the question there is of magic and the like, of course. Preservation and repair spells as well as comprehend languages and the like. And, at least if you use the 1e lifespans, the 3-6 thousand years of elvish isn't nearly as long a time period culturally as it was for humans.. It would be more like the difference between Middle English (aka Chaucer) and modern English than the difference between English and some indo-european root language.

    Third edition elves live a much shorter amount of time, of course. So that would be an entirely different story.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:51 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The 14400 figure for the Valley elves, who are in some materials said to originate in the Drow-Elf war. But that number is difficult to reconcile with any other hard number given for the elves.


    How many other hard numbers are there? Other than the Olven Calendar, which could represent any number of things (even the beginning of the reign of Queen Yolande, if she has some supernatural means of remaining alive), early elven history is pretty much date-free.

    Quote:
    You pretty much have to assume the elves founded their valley kingdom long before any other elves did anything in the Flanaess.


    I don't see why, unless I'm missing something.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:14 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    And, at least if you use the 1e lifespans, the 3-6 thousand years of elvish isn't nearly as long a time period culturally as it was for humans.. It would be more like the difference between Middle English (aka Chaucer) and modern English than the difference between English and some indo-european root language.

    Third edition elves live a much shorter amount of time, of course. So that would be an entirely different story.


    EXACTLY! THANK YOU! I was beginning to think I was speaking Indo-Eurpoean not English! I especially like the turn of phrase - "as long a time period culturally." Happy
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:34 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Well, the question there is of magic and the like, of course. Preservation and repair spells as well as comprehend languages and the like. And, at least if you use the 1e lifespans, the 3-6 thousand years of elvish isn't nearly as long a time period culturally as it was for humans.. It would be more like the difference between Middle English (aka Chaucer) and modern English than the difference between English and some indo-european root language.

    Third edition elves live a much shorter amount of time, of course. So that would be an entirely different story.


    Yes, magic will make records more accessible. And yes, the lesser rate of change will make records more comprehensible.
    But that begs the question of the development of writing. Unless the elves were granted an alphabet as the first form of writing, and unless they have not changed their alphabet at all, those translation problems still exist. (And that also begs a greater question as to just why there are so many different writing systems in D&D, something I would cut down massively.)
    Also, the evolution of the language is still going to be there. Look at the changes English undergoes in one generation. Then remember to factor in the effects of the migrations, and the need to develop completely new language to deal with the newcomers. Pre-cataclysms elven is very likely to be completely incomprehensible to post-cataclysms elven in alphabet, vocabulary, and pronunciation.
    And, to stress the Chaotic nature of elves, why must we assume any elements of their culture are stable? How can elven culture be "timeless" if they are so inherently Chaotic? That seems excessively Lawful to me.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:25 am  

    Heh, that line is looking dangerously like getting into 'what do the different alignments mean?" arguments. "Chaotic" means favoring individuality, freedom, and self realization over law, heirarchy, and organization. It does not inherently mean "highly mutable". Any timelessness one choses to apply to elvish culture comes not from a top down enforcement of standards, but rather from the nature of elvish interests and the long lifespan they have.

    There can and should be development of the language over the course of the elves' stay in the Flanaess, but I think you are way overstating your case. certainly there is no reason to believe the elves need to have changed their alphabet unless one simply decides it was inadequate for some reason. The Latin alphabet hasn't changed that much in 27 centuries of human development (its added 5 letters and adopted cursive and lower case scripts). Language, not the alphabet, is the problem with backtracking.

    Elvish may have adopted Suel and Oeridian words (depending on how much you think the elves really interacted with those folks) but I'm not sure how many entirely new concepts they brought with them that would necessitate wholesale language change to the point of incomprehensibility.

    If the elvish 'favored class' being wizard means anything culturally, it would tend to support a strong interest in literacy and the preservation of lore (since the main advantage of wizardry as a magic system is the ability to learn from written sources).
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:34 am  

    [quote="rasgon"]
    Vormaerin wrote:


    Quote:
    You pretty much have to assume the elves founded their valley kingdom long before any other elves did anything in the Flanaess.


    I don't see why, unless I'm missing something.


    Well, because there plenty of other things going on in the Flanaess that the elves seem to have had nothing whatsoever to do with. There are several ways to reconcile that. Elves are so isolationist that their neighbors could be up to all manner of things without them caring. Or the other 'pre history' stuff is pushed back even farther to account for it being 'before the elves'. Or we just don't know enough about these things so the elves were actually interacting with these cultures/groups without getting mentioned.

    I'd have to spend some time really looking at the material again. There is so much speculative work in the field that I may be attributing more factuality to certain dates than the "official" material supports.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:37 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Heh, that line is looking dangerously like getting into 'what do the different alignments mean?" arguments. "Chaotic" means favoring individuality, freedom, and self realization over law, heirarchy, and organization. It does not inherently mean "highly mutable". Any timelessness one choses to apply to elvish culture comes not from a top down enforcement of standards, but rather from the nature of elvish interests and the long lifespan they have.


    It means randomness in everything. that must include even culture.
    And culture is law, hierarchy, and organization.
    Even their own nature is a form of law.

    Or so I was told. Cool

    Quote:
    There can and should be development of the language over the course of the elves' stay in the Flanaess, but I think you are way overstating your case. certainly there is no reason to believe the elves need to have changed their alphabet unless one simply decides it was inadequate for some reason. The Latin alphabet hasn't changed that much in 27 centuries of human development (its added 5 letters and adopted cursive and lower case scripts). Language, not the alphabet, is the problem with backtracking.


    Not really. The main change is going to be the early changes, up until the alphabet is developed. We had several millenia of simple symbols to complex hieroglyphs before an alphabet was created. And do note that as I said, that alphabet comes in direct line for a single source of ALL western alphabets.
    So unless the elves still use original cuneiform or old dynasty hieroglyphs, their writing system has changed significantly.

    Quote:
    Elvish may have adopted Suel and Oeridian words (depending on how much you think the elves really interacted with those folks) but I'm not sure how many entirely new concepts they brought with them that would necessitate wholesale language change to the point of incomprehensibility.


    Well how different are they as races? If elves don't think like humans on a fundamental level, there is going to be quite a bit of language shift. We regularly see references to orcs not having words for "peace" and the like. What concepts, and thus words, never existed in elven?

    Quote:
    If the elvish 'favored class' being wizard means anything culturally, it would tend to support a strong interest in literacy and the preservation of lore (since the main advantage of wizardry as a magic system is the ability to learn from written sources).


    Again, wizard as a class requires not merely a high degree of literacy, but a well developed book making technology. I don't think any race could have wizard as a favored class until the post Twin Cataclysms period unless we massively advance print technology. (Such as printing presses being common in the Flanaess.)
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:09 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Elves are so isolationist that their neighbors could be up to all manner of things without them caring. Or the other 'pre history' stuff is pushed back even farther to account for it being 'before the elves'. Or we just don't know enough about these things so the elves were actually interacting with these cultures/groups without getting mentioned.


    I would favor a combination of these. Things like the the Doomgrinder culture, elves simply disliked that sort of technology (as most people do even in the modern Flanaess, if Murlynd's description is any guide) and never adopted it. The Sinking Isle culture may have been at least partially elven.

    The Wind Duke empire existed not just before humans and elves, but before any sort of sapient mortal life had developed (Fiendish Codex I, page 106). The battle at Pesh took place after eons of conflict between Law and Chaos, but preceded the dominance of the tanar'ri in the Abyss; the tanar'ri are tied to mortal souls, so there would have been some sapient mortals around at the time of Pesh, but they were likely among the first such, eons before the rise of "modern" races like humans and demihumans. If Galap-Dreidel was a Wind Duke, there's evidence that there were no Flan in the Flanaess in that long-ago era - only beings like aboleths and Crafters.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:44 pm  

    Samwise wrote:


    It means randomness in everything. that must include even culture.
    And culture is law, hierarchy, and organization.
    Even their own nature is a form of law.

    Or so I was told. Cool


    So unless the elves still use original cuneiform or old dynasty hieroglyphs, their writing system has changed significantly.

    Well how different are they as races? If elves don't think like humans on a fundamental level, there is going to be quite a bit of language shift. We regularly see references to orcs not having words for "peace" and the like. What concepts, and thus words, never existed in elven?

    Again, wizard as a class requires not merely a high degree of literacy, but a well developed book making technology. I don't think any race could have wizard as a favored class until the post Twin Cataclysms period unless we massively advance print technology. (Such as printing presses being common in the Flanaess.)



    Well, you can think elves are chaotic to the point of not even having a consistent culture, but frankly I think that's ludicrous. Not to mention unplayable. :)

    The alphabet question in unresolvable. We don't know when or where the elves originated. We don't know anything about the development of writing on Oerth or the Flanaess in particular. If you want the elves to have had a highly fluid written record, that's cool. But there is no reason it needs to have been that way. There is certainly no basis for claiming that if the elves had been writing for 6000 years, they would therefore have printing presses by now.

    The elves have been interacting with the Flan as long as they have been in the Flanaess if you accept the Great Embarkation tale. Other material has suggested they had some interaction with the Suel Imperium prior to the great cataclysms. So it *could* be that they've had a big linguistic shock and speak a modern elvish that compares to an older elvish the same way Modern english does with Old english (ie completely incomprehensible). But its equally probable that modern elvish and older material differs no more than today's english and shakespeare's or perhap chaucer's.

    The wizard class requires well developed writing. Large collections of scrolls are sufficient. You don't have to have advanced bookmaking, though its nice. Given the substantial expense involved in spell books and scrolls, its quite arguable that advanced beyond a certain point would, in fact, fail. A printing press that makes the myriad adjustments in inks and other materia that explains the cost of transcribing spells is quite likely imposssible to make.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:47 pm  

    rasgon wrote:


    The Wind Duke empire existed


    Meh. I'd rather not discuss the Wind Dukes. Turning them into intergalactic air elementals didn't particularly make me happy.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:30 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Well, you can think elves are chaotic to the point of not even having a consistent culture, but frankly I think that's ludicrous. Not to mention unplayable. :)


    Again, that is more of a retort for those who freaked out about my insect-elf connection. I think most such assertions about Law vs Chaos go to ludicrous degrees.

    Quote:
    The alphabet question in unresolvable.


    I agree.

    Quote:
    There is certainly no basis for claiming that if the elves had been writing for 6000 years, they would therefore have printing presses by now.


    Why wouldn't they? Printing presses are quite useful for any advancing civilization. With 6,000 years (for the Suloise), 5,000 (for the elves), or even a mere 3,000 (for the Flan), and with the large numbers of books constantly referred to, I think printing presses are almost mandatory, and should more likely be accelerated.

    Quote:
    The wizard class requires well developed writing. Large collections of scrolls are sufficient. You don't have to have advanced bookmaking, though its nice. Given the substantial expense involved in spell books and scrolls, its quite arguable that advanced beyond a certain point would, in fact, fail. A printing press that makes the myriad adjustments in inks and other materia that explains the cost of transcribing spells is quite likely imposssible to make.


    More than jsut scrolls will be needed. Large libraries of actual books will be required.
    And the printing press isn't required for the magic of spell books and scrolls, but for all the mundane information used as background for a full magical education. Tomes and tomes on lore and history and magical creatures and like. At least four monster manuals! Cool
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:07 am  

    Oh, I think you can have printing presses in GH. It might even be considered highly likely,given the prevalence of major libraries in the setting. I just don't think that their existance is a automatic consequence of deciding elves have had a consistent alphabet and predisposition to wizardry for all or most of their time in the Flanaess.


    Large libraries of actual books exist in the setting, but I don't think they are inherently required to sustain the wizard favored class for elves. People were studying magic from text sources long ala wizardry long before their were printing presses. And there were good sized collections of non "book" style materials at various places. Books are obviously better than unbound scrolls and printed books are easier to do than hand written ones. I just don't see it as a necessary consequence.

    Besides, medieval era manuscripts are a lot more interesting than press printed books. ;)
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:36 am  

    There could be a Library of Alexandria type structure in Celene where nearly all elven wizards came to be trained. It could have been a collection of scrolls or something more magical and alien, like knowledge stored in crystals or in the leaves of a Tree of Life. Perhaps there was only one literate elf who spent all of his time in a hermetically sealed vault full of scrolls or stone tablets, and the others used magic items or a natural "hivemind" to tap into his database of lore once per day - wizardry by proxy. Maybe he's still there, somehow sustained by the magical energy.

    But you don't need a well-rounded magical education to be a wizard. Not every wizard needs to go to the equivalent of Hogwarts. You just need to be able to copy down magical formulae from moldering scrolls, prepare them, and successfully cast them. In all other respects, you can be ignorant as an orc.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:11 am  

    While writing is definitely presumed to be the standard in D&D, we've discussed alternative forms of recording knowledge and memory on GreyTalk.

    Although the majority seemed to agree that writing is the most efficient means, FtA poses unique memory / knowledge retention in Oakvein. However, iirc, the text says that it is a unique (or very rare) location, so we are probably justified to assume that most modern olven knowledge is written. Perhaps the alphabet is an innovation of the Baklunish. The Olman having only devloped hieroglyphs (and the Flan only developing pictoglyphs). (Or maybe the Flan originated glyphs but the Olman refined / sophisticated them?)

    Remember we have Arabic-looking script in some of the Bakluni heraldry.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:47 am  

    Three responses:

    Vormaerin
    I don't think printing presses are a required consequence of elven development. I think they are a required consequence of general development, and a required element of other things mentioned in the setting.

    Rasgon
    Hogart's - Greyhawk campus may not be required, but the equivalent certainly exists.
    If natural urges to obey "higher ranked" subtypes of elves is too Lawful, then Hive Minds of any sort must definitely be out. (Don't forget, that comes with extreme sarcasm.)
    As for being as ignorant as an orc, that is why many refuse to even consider orcs casting spells.

    mtg
    I think the Suel discovered hieroglyphs and pictoglyphs and created the first alphabet. The Baklunish copied the concept, creating their own symbols. The Flan picked up the concept and the symbols, but expanded it into a huge syllabary to account for the large number of Flan dialects. The Oeridians modified the Suel alphabet when they settled down.
    Elves used the Suel alphabet, but with tons of artistic flourishes. Picture medieval illumination where every letter is as elaborate as the first. Dwarves used Suel alphabet, but eliminated all curves to better be carved in stone.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:37 pm  

    Do you assign Suel primacy in developing writing on the basis of their earliest recorded calendar, the centrality vis-a-vis most of the other "races" of the Flanaess, or something else?

    Do you think the Touv and their Kersi progenitors developed writing independently? Where should the Olman fall--derivative of the Zahind, which derived from the Suel, or adapting it from the Flan, or ???
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:03 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Do you assign Suel primacy in developing writing on the basis of their earliest recorded calendar, the centrality vis-a-vis most of the other "races" of the Flanaess, or something else?


    Yes, yes, and yes.

    Quote:
    Do you think the Touv and their Kersi progenitors developed writing independently? Where should the Olman fall--derivative of the Zahind, which derived from the Suel, or adapting it from the Flan, or ???


    I'd have to consider the overall world map, but they likely all derived it from the Suel directly or indirectly.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:28 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    Three responses:

    Vormaerin
    I don't think printing presses are a required consequence of elven development. I think they are a required consequence of general development, and a required element of other things mentioned in the setting.



    I agree that its hard to imagine the volume of books floating around the setting without printing presses of some sort. An inability to handle the necessaries of magical writing (where the medium is as important as the data) is sufficient to keep things from getting problematic, imho.

    I was only harping on the elf connection because that's where you brought it up. As a wider point, its much more valid.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:


    But you don't need a well-rounded magical education to be a wizard. Not every wizard needs to go to the equivalent of Hogwarts. You just need to be able to copy down magical formulae from moldering scrolls, prepare them, and successfully cast them. In all other respects, you can be ignorant as an orc.



    You don't need a well rounded education to be a wizard, certainly. But you need literacy and widespread literacy of the sort engendered by a favored class of wizard would tend to produce a lot of additional books. Though its certainly possible that the elves store data in other formats.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:37 pm  

    I'm not certain that "favored class" always means that that class is common - it only means they're exceptionally good at it. Githzerai, for example, are only rarely monks.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:40 pm  

    Well, that's true. I don't think 'most' of any race is of an adventuring class. But I do think that elves are highly magical and most have some minor spellcasting ability, though I suppose that's not supported in the rules. Else they'd have innate spellcasting like the gnomes.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:48 pm  

    It seems to me that I remember a Sage Advice column from the early '90s where Skip Williams said that one could be an illiterate wizard, suggesting that magical notation was a specialized skill, like musical notation, which didn't necessarily carry over to mundane reading and writing.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:11 pm  

    Perhaps. Certainly I can envision magical traditions that don't rely on traditional literacy (but then I'm a long time Ars Magica DM). But wizardry really isn't one of those based on how its described.

    You *could* say that magical notation is entirely separate from other writing. But is seems highly unlikely that the majority of people learning to read and write for magic would fail to be literate. Unless you are imagining that this hypothetical magical script is so robust that it can be used to write tracts about magical theory, the alchemical properties of various things, and so on. Even if a putative wizard could survive solely on spell literacy, few would so limit themselves, wizards being (almost by definition) bright and inquisitive.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:56 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Unless you are imagining that this hypothetical magical script is so robust that it can be used to write tracts about magical theory, the alchemical properties of various things, and so on. Even if a putative wizard could survive solely on spell literacy, few would so limit themselves, wizards being (almost by definition) bright and inquisitive.


    Remember, the purpose of this is to divine whether one could be a wizard in an ancient world without moveable type. Could elven society, without readily available books, still produce a significant number of wizards?

    Surely, wizards like books and tend to seek them out whenever they can, but that's not really at issue. The issue is, in a society where books are hard to come by, could there still be a number of wizards? The limitations in question are external rather than internal, and certainly not deliberate.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:18 pm  

    Well, certainly they could produce wizards without movable type. Who is arguing otherwise? Samwise said something that implied he thought that, but he clarified that he did not.

    Books and loose documents can be produced in more than adequate abundance by hand to account for a large number of wizards. The advantage of wizardry and other literacy based magic over sorcery is that multiple people can study from the same source over time. Either early elven mages (ie pre alphabet) could have had a peculiar script or they used a different tradition of magic than what is now called wizardry. But once you started producing mages with a background in gaining power from written materials, you are going to have a steady growth in the supply of such unless disasters and the like destroy them.

    And elves, with a very long lifespan and a predisposition for magic, are quite likely to have very high levels of literacy. Of whatever sort is available to their culture.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:01 am  

    Printing presses should be a very modern invention, if they exist at all, IMO.

    As for the origins of olven writing - I agree it'd be fairly early on in their development (assuming they weren't created literate). You wouldn't need writing per se to have wizardly arcane magic though. What you do need is a reliable aide de memoire for the spell formula to remind you of the ritual once you've cast it. This could take non written forms like dances around specially planted groves/stone circles etcetc where the spell ritual is encoded in the form of the dance (it'd help explain why the olve like dancing so much).

    As interesting as that is - I think the olves probably became literate due to the intervention of the Seldarine (either at creation or shortly thereafter). This is what allowed them to develop wizardly magic, as opposed to the innate magic of the wyrms and other sorcerous beings that directly channel through them.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:32 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    It seems to me that I remember a Sage Advice column from the early '90s where Skip Williams said that one could be an illiterate wizard, suggesting that magical notation was a specialized skill, like musical notation, which didn't necessarily carry over to mundane reading and writing.


    I remember seeing something similiar. Also, look at the 2nd edition Savage Wizard kit. I don't think they have access to top notch spellbooks or bindings.

    I seem to remember seeing an example in some book about a non-literate spellcaster using knots in a rope (it boggled me too).

    Also, oral tradition. Think of the nordic runecasters of our world (no I'm not saying they were D&D spell-slingers). They possessed a magical tradition where the rune rows were a set of codified symbols use for representation of magics they could learn, but the actual galdr (verbal components) were passed down orally. The rune holds the "spell-code" the galdr unleashes it.

    As for early elves, I could easily see them having magical groves with the spells engraved on tree trunks and others coming there to study. There's not a huge need for portability, because in all honesty, most aren't "adventurers" they studyy for their clans benefit. Spells which would need to be made portable could easily be done on animal hide, scrolls, whatever and transportred ewithin their territory as needed. It also give the ealry magic groups a form of political power as he who controls the grove controls the magic
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:49 am  

    I suppose there is a bit of semantic difference creeping into the discussion. I certainly don't think that all mages need to have written spell books and a predilection for literacy. Its entirely reasonable for other methodologies to exist. There were a plethora of them in the real world.

    ButI don't think any of these traditions would be represented by the wizard class as presented. If the elves practice one of these forms of magic, cool. But that argument is, imho, "they aren't really 'wizards'. We are just calling them that for lack of an appropriate label"

    Btw, I suspect that the knot wizard is based on the Finnish magical tradition.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:06 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I suppose there is a bit of semantic difference creeping into the discussion. I certainly don't think that all mages need to have written spell books and a predilection for literacy. Its entirely reasonable for other methodologies to exist. There were a plethora of them in the real world.

    ButI don't think any of these traditions would be represented by the wizard class as presented. If the elves practice one of these forms of magic, cool. But that argument is, imho, "they aren't really 'wizards'. We are just calling them that for lack of an appropriate label"

    Btw, I suspect that the knot wizard is based on the Finnish magical tradition.


    I agree on the semantics. I know in my games I use the base wizard class to represent a wide variety of traditions without ever changing the "rules" for the class, just perhaps descriptions of how they accomplish the feats.

    Oh, and yeah, I didn't even think of the finnish tradition. It just seemed odd to me that the knots were used as the spell book as I had a hard time wrapping my head around how you could tie a variety of knots to represent different spells like a spellbook would.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:09 am  

    Wonder no more:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu

    Wikipedia knows All. Smile

    P.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:51 am  

    On Earth, a written alphabet developed independently (as in unrelated and uninfluenced by each other) in several locations. I don't have it with me but the book Alpha-Beta by John Man nicely explores the development of the alphabets, even if he focuses on Egypt over much. A couple of points:

    1st - Several earth alphabets "deadended" or were co-opted.

    2nd - Earth has but one sentient species - mankind - to develop an alphabet. On Oerth, with elves and dwarves (at the least) having evolved millenia before humanity, multiple alphabets are entirely possible. Alternatively, human alphabets might have been influenced by elven or dwarven alphabets, depending on how one sees congress between the races. The prevalence of half-elves to me suggests human alphabets may well owe a debt to earlier elven alphabets. Wink On the other hand, elven script might have been based on even earlier pre-human and pre-elven alphabets. Even elves, while older than humanity, are not the oldest sentients to have inhabited Oerth.

    3rd - Scripts need not be purely alphabetic. There are representative scripts that eschew an alphabet - where a symbol equals a sound - and there are mixed scripts featuring some alphabetic symbols but also some representative figures.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:51 am  

    On Earth, a written alphabet developed independently (as in unrelated and uninfluenced by each other) in several locations. I don't have it with me but the book Alpha-Beta by John Man nicely explores the development of the alphabets, even if he focuses on Egypt over much. A couple of points:

    1st - Several earth alphabets "deadended" or were co-opted.

    2nd - Earth has but one sentient species - mankind - to develop an alphabet. On Oerth, with elves and dwarves (at the least) having evolved millenia before humanity, multiple alphabets are entirely possible. Alternatively, human alphabets might have been influenced by elven or dwarven alphabets, depending on how one sees congress between the races. The prevalence of half-elves to me suggests human alphabets may well owe a debt to earlier elven alphabets. Wink On the other hand, elven script might have been based on even earlier pre-human and pre-elven alphabets. Even elves, while older than humanity, are not the oldest sentients to have inhabited Oerth.

    3rd - Scripts need not be purely alphabetic. There are representative scripts that eschew an alphabet - where a symbol equals a sound - and there are mixed scripts featuring some alphabetic symbols but also some representative figures.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:45 am  

    Samwise, do you relate Suel literacy to the illithids in any way?

    I just reviewed Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations and wondered what folks think about its back-from-the-future rationale. Also, what do folks here think about the relationship between Gith and the people who eventually became the Suel?

    If the Suel developed writing and seeded this for many other people, I think it must have developed independently on Anakeris. Also, were the Crafters literate? Reportedly, the aboleth are...
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:23 am  

    Well, the crafters wrote on clay disks apparently. No indication of what sort of writing it was (cuneiform, heiroglyphs, or alphabet), but definitely writing. However, they vanished long before humans showed up. Perhaps a really long time before, if the 'great battle to the southwest' was Pesh.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:15 am  

    mtg wrote:
    If the Suel developed writing and seeded this for many other people, I think it must have developed independently on Anakeris.


    Must the Suel be the answer to every question? So much of GH already involves the Suel. It seems the lilly does not need further gilding. Perhaps add something new to the mix? Or at least different from "It must have been the Suel?"

    Unless we have taken complete leave of our senses and wish to rename Oerth as Suel-World, it is unlikely the Suel had anything to do with Anakeri. IMO.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:01 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    On Earth, a written alphabet developed independently (as in unrelated and uninfluenced by each other) in several locations. I don't have it with me but the book Alpha-Beta by John Man nicely explores the development of the alphabets, even if he focuses on Egypt over much. A couple of points:


    On earth, independent writing systems developed in only three absolutely verifiable locations - the Fertile Crescent, China, and Mesoamerica.
    From one of those, the Fertile crescent, several alphabets developed, but they can hardly be said to have been developed independently of each other.
    On earth, as most two other locations, the Indus Valley and one part of Africa might have developed independent writing systems, but their proximity to the Fertile Crescent and the time frame makes that difficult to confirm.

    I'll see your Alpha-Beta and raise you a Guns, Germs, and Steel.

    Quote:
    2nd - Earth has but one sentient species - mankind - to develop an alphabet. On Oerth, with elves and dwarves (at the least) having evolved millenia before humanity,


    Nice attempt to back door this into general acceptance.
    There is no proof that this is true, and no reason to assume anything derived from it.

    Quote:
    3rd - Scripts need not be purely alphabetic. There are representative scripts that eschew an alphabet - where a symbol equals a sound - and there are mixed scripts featuring some alphabetic symbols but also some representative figures.


    Hieroglyphics, pictoglyphs, and syllabaries.
    Of those, only syllabaries have the same potential for comprehension over millenia as an alphabet.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:53 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:


    Unless we have taken complete leave of our senses and wish to rename Oerth as Suel-World, it is unlikely the Suel had anything to do with Anakeri. IMO.


    Well, the conversation isn't really about Anakeris at the moment, but about elves in the Flanaess. At least as far as the literacy/alphabet discussion is concerned. So I'm not sure what that particular retort is supposed to establish.
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:12 am  

    It's likely that the Vaati had writing. One wonders how the aboleth responded to the struggle between Law and Chaos. Did they ignore it -- hiding beneath the waves? Did they betray Law and accomodate the Queen of Chaos? Did they fight a relatively unknown front?

    Whatever the matter, they might have developed writing independently and (inadvertently?) presented it to some of their slaves.

    Likely the illithid had writing -- probably not developed independently but seeming that way when they fled from the future.

    Might the Crafters have received writing from the Vaati? Perhaps they were lesser allies against Miska? Did the giants develop writing independently, or did they get this from humanity (or the dwur or the noniz)? Or did storm giants develop writing and present it to the lesser races, traces of Prometheus?

    I think the olves likely had writing when they were sweeping the scaley creatures from the Flanaess.
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:44 am  

    The standard use of Greyhawk is so fraught with extraplanar meddlers, time travellers, spelljamming visitors, divine intervention, and not even the gods know what else that it is impossible to make any sort of rational inferences about its development. There is just too much contamination of the data.

    As as aside, I'd be inclined to think that the aboleth don't have writing per se. They live underwater and are powerfully psionic. I'd think that they (and the illithids, for that matter) would have found psionic means of storing data for transmission.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:56 am  

    mtg wrote:
    Likely the illithid had writing -- probably not developed independently but seeming that way when they fled from the future.


    Actually if they always had some form of mental communication it wouldn't be out of the realm for them to never have needed writing. Especially with their huge brain pool containing their cultural identity and history.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:30 am  

    I don't think any human writing systems are related to the Aboleth or Illithid glyphs, or even Draconic.
    I expect the various non-mammalian races have scripts derived from those, but the human systems would all be separate.

    As for whether the Suel influenced some other continent, why wouldn't they? Rome left its mark on the whole world, directly or indirectly. Why shouldn't the Suel do the same?
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:31 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    As for whether the Suel influenced some other continent, why wouldn't they? Rome left its mark on the whole world, directly or indirectly. Why shouldn't the Suel do the same?


    As has England/Great Britain (e.g., the Empire). And France (e.g., culturally). Spain (e.g., religiously). India (e.g., religiously). China (e.g., culturally). Arabia (e.g., religiously, culturally and intellectually) Greece (e.g., politically, culturally, intellectually, religiously etc.), Egypt (e.g., you name it).

    The Suel, IMO, verge on a WoG cliche, needingly only to expand exponentially as one looks beyond the Flanaess. The Suel do not need the spotlight beyond what they have now - a huge role in the Flanaess, which will always be the central location in WoG.

    When one looks beyond the Flanaess, IMO, it is time for something new - new peoples, new villains, new religions, etc. for new lands. The idea of the Flanaess writ large across Oerth holds for me little or no appeal.

    As Earth has had many highly influential cultures, I believe Oerth should as well. This would include not merely human civilizations but demi-human, humanoid and perhaps non-human as well. With the wealth of possibilities, Suel-World would hold for me no appeal. YMMV
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:39 am  

    I think the Suel as a world defining race and culture make an excellent fantasy trope. Sort of like the Melniboneans, which many people compare them too.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:57 am  

    I like that comparison to Melnibone. Another society they could be compared to is the Numenorians.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:02 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    I think the Suel as a world defining race and culture make an excellent fantasy trope. Sort of like the Melniboneans, which many people compare them too.


    I could readily see this and see it as interesting if the Suel were developed as Melnibonean-esque. I am thinking fairly literally here - a WoG version of Melniboneans. Maybe with the same law/chaos split as GH has a full plate of good/evil splits?

    The difficulty I see is a couple fold.

    Something would need to be said about the Celestial Imperium. Hopefully other than that they were really not a factor. The name suggests China and the location and size suggests significant influence. I would think the Celestial Imperium and its role would have to be considered. IMO, the Celestial Imperium would seem to warrant "world player" status if we are going to go the way world defining races/cultures. How they interacted with the Suel would be, I think, critical.

    The Melniboneans were universally reviled among the Younger Kingdoms and feared. The Suel have variously gotten a makeover in the Flanaess with a pronounced "softening." This is at some odds with tales of the Empire. While I like the idea of Melnibonean Suel, I'd worry about a degree of schizophrenia and a degree of, pardon the expression, "wimpiness" in the present Suel of the Flanaess as compared to a Melnibonean model for the empire.

    This is going to sound odd, and I'm totally riffing here from the top of my head - maybe the Suel genetic makeup admits of something like metachlorians from Star Wars that sees a propensity toward "evil" behavior or chaotic behavior in the Melniboenean model? A planar chaotic or evil taint in the blood? Something "good" Suel must strive to overcome? Getting father out here. Maybe it manifests in some Suel with time - like the Innsmouth taint but without the physical signs? Anyway. You get the general idea. If the Suel were to be considered for a world defining role, I think they would need a degree of development/retconning to make them more Melnibonean-esque. IMO, the Suel as is work well for the Flanaess but on a world stage, I'd think they would need an upgrade of some sort.

    Anyone have any thoughts on the prospects?
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:21 pm  

    Yes any Imperium or Empire still standing must be addressed to put the Suel in their proper place. This would include Lynn and the Tharquish if we push farther west.

    Melnibone and Suel share the fear-revile aspect, yup. Yet I'd compare the present day Suel more to the fractured Numenorians from the Silmarillion. What was left IIRC was some Numenorians (good) in the north and the Black Numenorians (evil) to the south roughly. So I think of it more as a dilution of the original stock.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:22 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I could readily see this and see it as interesting if the Suel were developed as Melnibonean-esque. I am thinking fairly literally here - a WoG version of Melniboneans. Maybe with the same law/chaos split as GH has a full plate of good/evil splits?


    That would be a thorough waste. They are still the Suel, not the Melniboneans. I made the comparison to demonstrate why they could be some ubiquitous, not to suggest a complete destruction of any unique development for the Suel.

    Quote:
    The difficulty I see is a couple fold.

    Something would need to be said about the Celestial Imperium. Hopefully other than that they were really not a factor. The name suggests China and the location and size suggests significant influence. I would think the Celestial Imperium and its role would have to be considered. IMO, the Celestial Imperium would seem to warrant "world player" status if we are going to go the way world defining races/cultures. How they interacted with the Suel would be, I think, critical.


    If you mean starting with avoiding a pathetic cultural hackjob of China, I agree. Otherwise just using it as an excuse for Kara-Tur/Rokugan/Oriental Adventures light in Greyhawk is as big as waste as turning the Suel into a ripoff of the Melniboneans.

    Quote:
    The Melniboneans were universally reviled among the Younger Kingdoms and feared. The Suel have variously gotten a makeover in the Flanaess with a pronounced "softening." This is at some odds with tales of the Empire.


    The Suel have a rotten enough reputation. Whether some are less scummy doesn't change that.
    Further, it has been 1,000 years. Even the worst can change in that time.

    Quote:
    This is going to sound odd, and I'm totally riffing here from the top of my head - maybe the Suel genetic makeup admits of something like metachlorians from Star Wars that sees a propensity toward "evil" behavior or chaotic behavior in the Melniboenean model?


    It is bad enough Incarnum is the Farce renamed, takingt he worst idea of the second SW trilogy and using it would be even worse.

    Quote:
    A planar chaotic or evil taint in the blood? Something "good" Suel must strive to overcome? Getting father out here. Maybe it manifests in some Suel with time - like the Innsmouth taint but without the physical signs? Anyway. You get the general idea.


    Given the ever increasing number of Heritage (and other variations on that name) feats in WotC products, as well as my own plans to use the concept in my next campaign, I would not object to this.
    However, for many reasons, I would make it significantly more generic, and employ many more options.
    Perhaps the rulers of the Suel Imperium were fiend-tainted, but other Suel groups were celestial, elemental (remember the Binders?), draconic, aberrant, or otherwise tainted. That allows for both the significant change in behavior of the Suel in the Flanaess, as well as numerous variants elsewhere in the world.

    Again though, it must be clear that the Suel are not the Melniboneans. The comparison is merely in terms of penetration of the setting, and not to suggest they must be sitting around waiting for Elric to show up.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:42 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Yes any Imperium or Empire still standing must be addressed to put the Suel in their proper place. This would include Lynn and the Tharquish if we push farther west.


    I would agree with this. And assuming "Nippon" is a Japanese analog, and the Celestial Imperium "China," there's a road to go there too.

    Samwise wrote:
    That would be a thorough waste. They are still the Suel, not the Melniboneans. I made the comparison to demonstrate why they could be some ubiquitous, not to suggest a complete destruction of any unique development for the Suel.


    Oh, I don't know. I think there is room for both a more than passing nod to the Melniboneans while still creating a unique identity for the Suel. I'm not saying this is the only way to go but it is an option and, I think, not a bad place from which to start. The end point need not see dragons sleeping in caves, a sea maze, battle barges and two black swords. One can work from a theme and create new details and then new themes.

    Certainly, if the riff is not to be on the Melniboneans then whatever the Suel signature it needs to be as immediately distinctive and effecting because one would then be granting the Suel an inordinately large place in the world. Big shoes and they would need to be able to fill them. I don't see the Suel as presently written being up to that.

    Samwise wrote:
    If you mean starting with avoiding a pathetic cultural hackjob of China, I agree. Otherwise just using it as an excuse for Kara-Tur/Rokugan/Oriental Adventures light in Greyhawk is as big as waste as turning the Suel into a ripoff of the Melniboneans.


    I'm not sure this is a universally held sentiment. I think there is a place for an oriental pastiche. It is all a matter of how it is done. I think an oriental pastiche could be done well, particularly if given a unique slant so that it is not just China or Japan with the serial numbers filed off. Just as the Flanaess is more than Eurpoe with the serial numbers filed off. And in any event, cultural pastiches are part of Greyhawk - witness the Olman. The challenge I think is how to engage them to make them more than a cultural transparency.

    Samwise wrote:
    The Suel have a rotten enough reputation. Whether some are less scummy doesn't change that.
    Further, it has been 1,000 years. Even the worst can change in that time.


    This is one of my larger concerns with the Suel - that they not be turned into the "heroes" of the piece. I'm not saying they must be villains of the deepest die but part of their elan is their penchant for villainy. Good Suel IMO is an oxymoron and denies the very thing that makes the Suel most distinctive. As good Suel, they might as well be Oeridians or Baklunish. The Suel need their villiany, and not just in the historical past, IMO.

    Samwise wrote:
    It is bad enough Incarnum is the Farce renamed, takingt he worst idea of the second SW trilogy and using it would be even worse.


    I have come to appreciate a saying I want to attribute to Robin Laws, but it might have been Wolf Baur - "Bad movies make good roleplaying games." What on screen may seem awful can translate into some good gaming as the mediums take the same detail but work with it differently. In any event, I'm not literally suggesting metachlorians.

    Samwise wrote:
    Given the ever increasing number of Heritage (and other variations on that name) feats in WotC products, as well as my own plans to use the concept in my next campaign, I would not object to this.
    However, for many reasons, I would make it significantly more generic, and employ many more options. Perhaps the rulers of the Suel Imperium were fiend-tainted, but other Suel groups were celestial, elemental (remember the Binders?), draconic, aberrant, or otherwise tainted. That allows for both the significant change in behavior of the Suel in the Flanaess, as well as numerous variants elsewhere in the world.


    I agree there are a lot of options. My thought was not so much to suggest any one but rather to suggest some sort of tag. If the Suel were to be given a worldwide role, players and DMs would need to be able to quickly grasp their essence (their unique character) and why they are significant (other than that they might be said to have significance world wide). Fine detail is great but it is secondary to a cool idea that can be simply conveyed, IMO. Comprehending what makes a Suel Suel. What makes the Suel cool in 10 words (hopefully specific and catchy) or less sort of thing. I'm thinking here particularly of those who might have no familiarity with WoG getting the idea clearly, exactly and quickly.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:53 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Oh, I don't know. I think there is room for both a more than passing nod to the Melniboneans while still creating a unique identity for the Suel.
    . . .
    One can work from a theme and create new details and then new themes.


    Less is more.

    Quote:
    I'm not sure this is a universally held sentiment. I think there is a place for an oriental pastiche. It is all a matter of how it is done.


    I'm sure it is. As yet, I haven't seen it done well.

    Quote:
    And in any event, cultural pastiches are part of Greyhawk - witness the Olman.


    Case in point.

    Quote:
    The challenge I think is how to engage them to make them more than a cultural transparency.


    Which seems beyond most authors.

    Quote:
    This is one of my larger concerns with the Suel - that they not be turned into the "heroes" of the piece.


    I wasn't aware the Melniboneans were heroes.
    Or the Romans.
    Protagonists is more than enough.

    Samwise wrote:
    It is bad enough Incarnum is the Farce renamed, takingt he worst idea of the second SW trilogy and using it would be even worse.


    Quote:
    I agree there are a lot of options. My thought was not so much to suggest any one but rather to suggest some sort of tag.
    . . .
    What makes the Suel cool in 10 words (hopefully specific and catchy) or less sort of thing.


    The Suel:
    If it can be boffed, they've boffed it.

    Just as the Neheli have the hots for elves, every Suel house can have the hots for a critter of one sort of other. That way the SB concept of racial purity either becomes even more absurd (because they all have bizarre bloodlines already) or is highlighted as distinctly perverse in relation to traditional Suel behavior (because they don't).
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:31 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Maybe with the same law/chaos split as GH has a full plate of good/evil splits?


    Their pantheon is already split between Law and Chaos, Wee Jas's hypocrisy in this regard nonwithstanding.

    Taking from inspiration from Melniboné is fine, but I think it needs to be emphasized that, unlike Elric's folk, the Suel are humans - they have human flaws, but they also potentially have human virtues; they have as many good deities as evil ones, and the Suel today are as varied as any human people (not to mention thoroughly blended with them in most areas).

    The ancient Suel Imperium just before the Rain of Colorless Fire was thoroughly decadent and tyrannical, but (as with Melniboné) it was not always thus, and the Baklunish Caliphate was, if not quite as vile, no less hubristic and misguided.

    Today pure-blooded Suloise are rare and most are no better or worse than any other human being. It seems a very bad idea to brand such a major component of the Flanaess with hereditary evil - are the folk of Duchy Urnst cursed with the sins of their fathers? I say no - they aren't Suel anymore, nor are the Lerara nor the Scarlet Brotherhood. They're new nations, a millennium removed from the old. I dislike fantasies of racial destiny.

    What makes a Suel Suel? Paler skin than average. The true Suel don't exist anymore, much as the Scarlet Brothers try to deny that fact. They're a dead people, part of the history and background of the setting. Their legacy lives on in many respects, but the present-day people of the Flanaess are no more Suel than Melf Brightflame is an Elder Elf, no more than Iuz is Vecna. If they try to identify too much with the past, they end up no more than pale shadows of what once was - better to look at what they've become, at the future.

    Quote:
    And assuming "Nippon" is a Japanese analog, and the Celestial Imperium "China," there's a road to go there too.


    I think there's a good argument for a Chinesey Celestial Imperium, but "Nippon" doesn't work geographically as a Japanese analog - its culture would draw from Zahind to the immediate west, along with probably the Olmans, not the Celestials on the other side of a massive mountain range and two seas. If Zahind is India, "Nippon" is Sri Lanka. For Japan, look more toward Dragons Island in the Celestial Sea - though as an equatorial island (as is the "Nipponese" archipelago) it's going to be pretty different as well. It seems to me that it would be best if all thoughts of Japan were banished from "Nippon" entirely. Start with the idea that they're a tropical archipelago south of the Amedio and work from there.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:52 pm  

    Rasgon wrote:
    It seems to me that it would be best if all thoughts of Japan were banished from "Nippon" entirely. Start with the idea that they're a tropical archipelago south of the Amedio and work from there.

    I think that Nellisir made a decent stab at this with his Mhajapour Archipelago posts although I'm unsure if these were supposed to be the same islands geographically.

    I think that the term Ni'hon (don't know who coined it) can help us move away from medieval Japan (but not completely). Talmeta also presented some interesting ideas about Ni'hon (did Tal coin that name?), but his version did seem to draw on medieval Japan significantly.

    Samwise wrote:
    The Suel:
    If it can be boffed, they've boffed it.

    Just as the Neheli have the hots for elves, every Suel house can have the hots for a critter of one sort of other. That way the SB concept of racial purity either becomes even more absurd (because they all have bizarre bloodlines already) or is highlighted as distinctly perverse in relation to traditional Suel behavior (because they don't).

    LOL! But this idea seems brilliant and can be interestingly contrasted with Rip's point about the humanity of the Suel. In the past, numerous posters have presented images of the Imperium as absurdly cosmopolitan in its decadence. The Rome series on HBO doesn't get anywhere near it; probably not even the old-school "mighty movies," a.k.a. "swords & sandals" in a hip movie shop in S.F., get at the SIN of the ancient Suel Imperium.

    I've wondered about those ancestry feats for a while -- tending to dislike them overall, primarily because they seem clunky. Feats are relatively rare except for fighters, yet feats are perhaps the best way to customize a character in 3xE.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:15 pm  

    Samwise wrote:


    Quote:
    And in any event, cultural pastiches are part of Greyhawk - witness the Olman.


    Case in point.




    If we are going to do cultural pastiches, at least let's do them well. Instead of bad Aztec clones, lets have something like the Tsolyani of Tekumel. And the same with the Celestial Imperium, "Zahind", and whatever else. There are lots and lots of earth cultures to draw from in developing societies. The uttermost last thing we need is "Maztica" and the like.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:57 am  

    I tend to agree with most posters' thoughts about the powerfully psionic aboleth (and perhaps illithid) not needing to write. However, fyi, the Book of Aberrations makes much of aboleth writing, especially of certain glyphs. Of course, that source makes them arcane casters, with alternate rules for psionic aboleths, so perhaps that takes care of that.

    Another reason aboleth might not need writing is because reportedly the memories of any aboleth's offspring contain everything experienced by the entire line of its ancestors.

    Even if they've not developed their own writing, however, it seems reasonable that aboleth would have incorporated writing from their slaves and be literate in various languages -- unless they compel their slaves to read texts aloud or ride their minds to understand what they're reading / seeing?

    Samwise, why do you prefer to separate the development of human writing from that of other "races?"
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:02 am  

    Covering a lot of stuff here, so bear with me:

    The Suel were big and will have had some significant influence on their surroundings - bringing down the Baklunish Empire, overrunning parts of Zahind, probable (unsuccessful) wars with Suhfang, perhaps the progenitors of the albino sorcerors of Vulzar (exiles? migrants? criminals? rebels?).

    However, they ain't all that. You also have to consider the Suhfangi, the Hitaxans, the Tharqish, the Hydranians/Kalaraji/Ni'hon, the Vanians, the Oerids of Thalos.

    As to Suel being congentially evil - eh, no. They're humans - they did very good things; they did very bad things. Their culture may have been cruel, bloodthirsty and towards the end approached Melnibonean levels of sadism and decadence, but that doesn't mean that good Suel is an oxymoron. It means that good Suel were rare in the last days of the Imperium.

    Cultural pastiches - yes and no. Yes, in that certain regions suggest certain Earthly parallels, but there should be an effort made to put an imaginative spin to make Oerthly the Earthly.

    Specific examples:

    Ni'hon/Kalaraj/Hydrania: The name and shape in DA1 suggests Japan. However, given it's location (equitorial) and it's neighbours (Zahind) - a pure Japanese port-over isn't going to work (aside from being lazy). As I've said before (and Rip's mentioned above), a fusion of Sri Lanka with elements of Japanese feudal society is a better way to go.

    Adding in a bit of fantasy and riffing off the name Sea of the Dragon King in DA1, perhaps the ruler of the isles is believed to be a wyrm (and may actually be one - though no one knows). Certainly he's lived for hundreds of years. He's served by a loyal cadre of sorceror-warriors trained in the martial arts of the island (based on Tamil Kalarippayattu). The current rulers father was slain by the Vanians who threw down his empire and took its mainalnd dominions for their own. The Vanians in turn lost their empire to decadence and infighting, and the son reclaimed his birthright. However, reclaiming the dominions has proved more difficult and war still rages on the mainland between the soldiers of the Dragon King and the native peoples.

    Suhfang: The Celestial Imperium and the Great Walls to the north obviously suggest China. However, it's largely swathed in tropical and suptropical jungle - which might suggest more Siamese or Khmer elements. Suhfang is huge, old, rich and powerful. It's THE power in central Oerik - though it has many rivals and envious neighbours (the Bakluni/Bakoury nomads and orc/goblin kin to the north; Hitaxa and the Tsien chu (sp?) to the south).

    The Imperium has no gods (reigious zealots are exiled to Tsien Chu) - but practises a mixture of elemental mysticism and a philosophy emphasising the triumph of mind over flesh. The latter feeds into the authority of the Emperors who, along with their mandarins are psionically active.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:07 am  

    Not merely human writing, humanoid (mammalian) writing.
    And the why is a combination of simple aesthetics with the radical biological differences. While human psychology is going to be different from elven, dwarven, halfling, orc, goblin, and whatever psychology, there are also extreme physical differences between the mammalian races and the aboleth, illithids, batrachoid, ichthyoid, reptilian, arachnoid, and insectoid races. Even if mammalian humanoids could derive the concept of written language from the scrawls of those other races, it is likely they would have no ability to comprehend the basic forms to begin with. Illithid qualith for example require four tentacles to properly "read." While the "translation" would be easier for other non-mammalian races, I would say separating them provides a reinforcement of the differences.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:25 am  

    mtg wrote:
    I tend to agree with most posters' thoughts about the powerfully psionic aboleth (and perhaps illithid) not needing to write. However, fyi, the Book of Aberrations makes much of aboleth writing, especially of certain glyphs. Of course, that source makes them arcane casters, with alternate rules for psionic aboleths, so perhaps that takes care of that.


    The idea of aboleth glyphs was from Carl Sargent's Night Below set, I believe.

    Their photographic, hereditary memories mean they don't need writing to record knowledge. Their glyphs are signs of power - tools. They don't use them to represent mundane things, and would find the idea of doing so to be a non sequitur. Aboleth glyphs aren't writing in the way humans understand the term, any more than a sword or magic wand is writing.

    They could be empowered by psionics as easily as arcana, given the psionic tattoos in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:09 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Taking from inspiration from Melniboné is fine, but I think it needs to be emphasized that, unlike Elric's folk, the Suel are humans - they have human flaws, but they also potentially have human virtues; they have as many good deities as evil ones, and the Suel today are as varied as any human people (not to mention thoroughly blended with them in most areas).


    From a design standpoint, any use of a single race or people as a signature aspect of a world has to be done very, very carefully. Becauce if you get it wrong or if your public doesn't care for it, you haven't just missed the mark with respect to the race or people, you have hurt the world because you made the race or people central to the world.

    That said, and taking the quote above as truth for purposes of discussion, I do not see the Suel as they are presently written as sufficient for the role of Oerth's signature race/people. The Suel would need to be reconceptualized/upgraded/retconned to some degree to give them a strong enough hook to have any hope of functioning well as Oerth's signature race/people. I think the key word is - hook.

    IMO, the Suel would need something to set them apart more than their history as written and more than their present state before they could be considered for an Oerth-wide role. Right now, looking at the above quote, the Suel are not sufficiently special, sufficiently "hooky." The difficulty lies not with established fans of the setting but with those who know nothing of Greyhawk. If the Suel were to be considered for a Oerth-wide role, they would need to appeal to the Greyhawk ignorant and they would need to establish their appeal in an immediately compelling and comnprehensive way - in 10 words or less.

    Greyhawk fans concerns with consistency, coherence, "natural" development, feality to the features of Flanaess that have come to be known and loved is all well and good but, from a design standpoint are secondary to - will something draw in new players who know nothing of Greyhawk. If you can't reasonably imagine that a design will draw new people to Greyhawk for the first time, IMO, the design is a failure. No matter what its other virtues.

    This is one thing that distinguishes fan design from professional design. Fan design is intended to please existing fans and it stops there, anything more being gravy. Professional design attempts to satisfy fans but looks primarily to drawing the widest possible audience, particularly with respect to new setting or restarts of settings that have "failed," "died" or which have been placed on "hiatus." Greyhawk's checkered history suggests strongly, IMO, that any design must focus more on new fans than old ones.

    Perhaps, we are just noodling here in contemplation of our home games. Thats fine. If the thought goes any further, however, the fan who has never encountered Greyhawk must be considered.

    In such consideration, I believe the Suel as written are not sufficient for the role of Oerth's signature people/race. They don't have a compelling hook. They have become too diffuse and various as the quote above notes - basically just another human race with a history. And that history, IMO, is not sufficiently compelling as written to merit Oerth being presented as Suel-World - with the Suel in an Oerth-wide roll.

    IMO, WoG needs the new. New lands beyond the Flanaess. New villains. New peoples and cultures. etc. If an existing feature of the setting is to be expanded beyond the Flanaess, it too must be made new in some manner. This is not to say that feature should or would be made unrecognizable but neither should or would it be sufficient "as is."

    Again, if this is fannish noodling, forget the above. Whatever will work just fine in a homebrew Greyhawk. If the thought is anything more, consideration of new blood needs to be paramount.

    Please note, I am not trying to disqualify the Suel, nor endorse them, for an Oerth-wide role. I am suggesting they are not ready for that role now in anything other than a homebrew. They could be made suitable for such a role (althought there would still be considerations of the Celestial Imperium, Tharquish etc.) but that would require they change by some measure from how they are presented now.

    Don't want to open the cousin to a canon discussion, but when I design I try to think in terms of a new GH setting. That may be just my conceit. Homebrews are cool too. Smile
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:

    From a design standpoint, any use of a single race or people as a signature aspect of a world has to be done very, very carefully.


    I completely agree that the Suel don't work as Oerth's headline race. The very fact that they fashioned the derro thousands of years prior to the Bakluni-Suel Wars tells me they were always pretty despicable.

    My own thought was that the Oeridians were the pre-imminent race of "Oerth" and "Oerik". Which isn't to say that Flannae Oeridians are necessarily one and the same as Ancient Oeridians.

    I always despised the canon that placed their homeland in Ull and always decided that in my game the Yorodhi were simply one tribe of Oeridians that had fled to Ull at a time seperate from the primary migration of Oerids. It just didn't make any sense to me that you have this "Great Kingdom" established by mangy evil barbarians from Ull. You have so many great Oeridian names (Baron Lum, Dahlver Nar, Johydee, Arnd, etc.) to work with from their history it just didn't fit for me.

    How I would go about expanding the Oeridians history isn't something I have thought much about but I think they are certainly worthy of being Oerths headline race.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:21 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    I always despised the canon that placed their homeland in Ull


    "Homeland" is relative. They lived in Ull for a time, but it's clear they didn't originate there. The LGJ and LGG indicate they came from the plains of Central Oerik beyond the Baklunish lands.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:52 pm  

    See also several threads on here where we kicked about a good outline for the history of the Oerids and the Bakluni (and a probable common root in central Oerik).

    If you incorporate Chainmail into Oerth, the Oerids have spread from one end of Oerik (Aerdy) to the other (Thalos).
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:43 pm  

    I don't particularly see a need for a 'signature race' nor do I see how making the Suel the originators of the alphabet would make them so. That said, I can get no sense of "why" you think the Suel are insufficient for the role if that role is desired. What is sort of 'hook' are you imagining?

    The Romans are clearly the 'signature race' for the western world, but that doesn't obviate the existance of the Chinese or of all the other races/nations around the romans (Parthians, Persians, Greeks, etc). So I don't see how the existance of Hitaxia, Zahind, and Suhfang are inherently a problem with making the Suel the featured race.

    The romans were also total bastards who kept slaves, committed atrocities, were wildy corrupt and debauched, and arrogant as all get out. I'm quite sure that if they had magic, they'd've made derro and done all sorts of other vile things with it. After all, its not like the derro were bred from Roman (err, Suel) _citizens_. Just a bunch of slaves anyway.

    I do agree with the sentiment that the Oeridians are the favored race of the Flanaess in the original conception.They controlled nearly all the Flanaess outside of the Sheldomar and were a major influence there, dominate almost all of the modern history, and so on.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:52 pm  

    I was going to note that being the alphabet boys and the signature race were not mutually inclusive or exclusive, but Vormaerin beat me to it.
    And he beat me on noting their being a signature race doesn't eliminate the existence of any other race.
    So . . .
    I'll just note I agree with him and go back to waiting. Cool
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:22 am  

    Quote:
    The Romans are clearly the 'signature race' for the western world


    Cough::Greeks::CoughCough Happy

    What's a signature race anyway?
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:39 am  

    Well, I'm assuming it means the race that is the main focus of presentation of material. Quite clearly that's the Oeridians in GH, but if you delve into the past you run into the fact that they are barbarians for a long time after the Suel are doing fancy stuff. So if you start presenting a lot of historical material the Oeridians might be more problematic. Or might not...


    And, yes, you could make a case about the Greeks which is why its generally called Greco-Roman. But, without starting a whole new off topic issue, I think its arguable that the Greeks wouldn't have had the impact they did without the Romans to pound their philosophy and crap into the heads of everyone in Europe and the middle east.
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:52 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    See also several threads on here where we kicked about a good outline for the history of the Oerids and the Bakluni (and a probable common root in central Oerik).

    If you incorporate Chainmail into Oerth, the Oerids have spread from one end of Oerik (Aerdy) to the other (Thalos).

    Yeah, I certainly think that fits my idea of an 'Oeridian Empire' better...

    I guess my thought is that the Oerids seem to be the most significant race on Oerik. Which certainly doesn't mean they need to have anything at all to do with certain swathes of Oerik but wouldn't it make sense to take an Oeridians perspective when investigating those cultures?

    From a Flannae Oeridian perspective if an explorer made it to the Empire of Lynn he certainly wouldn't assume the peoples there were 'Oeridian' or friendly. Yet it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that those peoples and his have similar genetics. Since we 'know' the Flanaess a starting point when discussing new areas makes using former Suel or Oeridian holdings the most 'natural'.

    As an example of a Suel perspective, in another thread somewhere, I surmised that the Suel penchant for racial purity stemmed from an incident in their ancient past where the offspring of Suel conquerors became incredibly powerful due to the mixture of Suel blood (penchant for sorcerery) and 'Kersi' blood (penchant for druidic arts) the resulting half breeds ended up casting the Suel from their islands and fomenting revolt in other Suel holdings. Which gave rise to the philosophy of the Scarlet Sign and probably caused even worse conditions for slaves, and likely started slave breeding programs. (Hello derro.)

    I guess my whole point behind this rambling post was that it is probably more rewarding for the average Greyhawk player (and easier for the DM) to have a "native Flannae" view point when discussing new areas of Oerth and Oerik. What I would caution against though is to fall into the tSB trap of looking down on these cultures at the same time. (Did every single Olman city state have to fail so that they remained jungle barbarians and secondary to the other cultures of the Flannaess?) We don't need more 'unplayable' areas like Hepmonaland and the Amedio.
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:44 pm  

    I really liked your last post Lassiviren. A couple things:

    I think new players of GH campaigns will (should?) be introduced to the setting via the Flanaess. In that regard they are similar to GH fans.

    Note, I don't know about Eberron beyond Dragon and Dungeon and haven't followed FR since its first (2e?) hardcover book and Dragonlance since its first sets of novels. (I know nothing really after the original main storyline of the setting.)

    Nevertheless, I offer that few, if any D&D campaign settings are truly world-spanning. Rather, they tend to focus on the ostensibly main continent.

    In D&D games I've played with non-GH fans (while searching for a good group) since 2000, I've remarked on their knowledge about the Suel--who seem to be well-known as a preeminently sorcerous people, tied to their doom. I've not gleaned that the Suel have an inherently evil reputation but rather an inherently wizardly one.

    Of course, this is merely anecdotal. Nevertheless I mention it to proffer some scrap of proof on how new fans might be introduced to the world of Greyhawk.

    I think that "new" aspects of the setting should be well connected to the Flanaess in order to inspire the imaginations of established fans and newcomers. GH's history is a great strength. There's always more to learn. Without knowing of it at all, however, the "new" might not be new at all but instead just a different setting -- in competition with Eberron, FR, etc.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:13 am  

    mtg wrote:
    I think new players of GH campaigns will (should?) be introduced to the setting via the Flanaess. In that regard they are similar to GH fans.

    Nevertheless, I offer that few, if any D&D campaign settings are truly world-spanning. Rather, they tend to focus on the ostensibly main continent.

    In D&D games I've played with non-GH fans (while searching for a good group) since 2000, I've remarked on their knowledge about the Suel--who seem to be well-known as a preeminently sorcerous people, tied to their doom. I've not gleaned that the Suel have an inherently evil reputation but rather an inherently wizardly one.


    I don't know much about Eberron and very little about the current state of FR. My impression of FR is that their human racial types are muddied by nationalities which gives rise to a huge amount of variability. I can see where that could be overwhelming to new players and difficult from a designers perspective. While I am sure the Greyhawk way of moving racial stock around en masse probably isn't super realistic it makes design elements much more elegant and let's players have a very easy point of reference when you describe a city as having a certain amount of Suel architecture or Flan natives with many small shrines...etc.

    I don't think Eberron has gotten to the FR extreme with nationalities yet but if WotC keeps their current rate of sourcebook schedule it shouldn't take long for that to happen. Eberron should have a more homogenous feel I would think simply because it is so much easier to travel from one side of a continent to the other and from continent to continent... at least thats my impression.

    It is interesting to note that the political boundaries of Greyhawk are extremely complex (Duchy this, Principality that, County this, Kingdom of etc.) If you then try to make the Ratikans different racially from Suel barbarians or southern Oeridians which is basically what FR does (if I remember their PC creation correctly), I don't think it adds anything to the game.

    If on the other hand you take my meanderings and create a "Sulkersi" race (black hair, pale skin, red pupil-less eyes) who are native to the islands far south of Oerik, I think it makes sense to most Greyhawk players as well as fitting into what everyone thinks about the Suel and what might be around in an ex-Suel Imperium holding.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:32 am  

    Actually, the FR doesn't really do much in terms of differentiating humans. That sort of ethnic information does exist now, but it was introduced years after the setting was first published.

    As far as GH moving races around, that's extremely realistic. If you look at the migrations history of Europe, you'll see at least as much (if not more) movement of peoples. The celtic peoples started in Germany/Poland and spread all over the place, pushed by the Germans. Vandals probably came from Scandinavia and ended up everywhere from Hungary to North Africa. The Goths also started in Scandinavia and moved down into Russia, then westwards as far as Spain. The Balkans are filled with migrants from the asian steppes and borders of china: Avars, Bulgars, and Magyars.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:48 am  

    As an aside, Mystara did a lot of work on the races and racial mixing, including secondary and tertiary mixes. (That is Race A and Race B mixed to produce Race X. Race A and Race C mixed to produce Race Y. Race X and Race Y mixed to produce Race K.)
    And Mystara seemed to manage quite well with only a few starting races and various mixed races. Why can't Greyhawk do the same? Do we really need another 50 human sub-races for Greyhawk to be "proper?"
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:03 am  

    I don't think its necessary to actually detail precisely how the Velunese differ ethnicly from the Nyrondese. I happen to think that Osf and Os means they are Oeridian with small amounts of Suel (and flan in Veluna) blood. Not that there are 9 villages of Oeridians and 1 village of Suel in the country or the like.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:28 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Actually, the FR doesn't really do much in terms of differentiating humans. That sort of ethnic information does exist now, but it was introduced years after the setting was first published.

    As far as GH moving races around, that's extremely realistic. If you look at the migrations history of Europe, you'll see at least as much (if not more) movement of peoples.


    I guess my quibble isn't the fact that the Oerids or the Suel migrated its that they would still consider themselves "Oerids" or "Suel" thousands of years after the fact. More realistically it wouldn't be the Suel Imperium but the Muglak Imperium and modern day peoples from there named themselves the "Suel".

    I am not a historian but I think cultural identity travels better than the purity of a race's genetics. Genetically the Suel in particular would be hard placed to keep that racial identity when conquering other areas... unless of course you reverse the genetic predisposition of caucasians on Earth when mingling with other races. (Which is fine by me, but it sort of stomps all over the Scarlet Brotherhood's xenophobia.)

    I am firmly in the camp of keeping Greyhawk's human sub-races broad and distinct if for no other reason than not wanting to bog down the setting. If the primary races in Zahind are Suel, 'Kersi', Olman, Baklun and 'Xuin' (whatever the Suhfang racial name is) I don't think anyone would be surprised. My instinct would be to 'not' have every new nation have it's own racial type.

    And if we were ever to find out that Oeridians, Baklunish, and 'Xuians' all came from the same genetic stock no one should be surprised.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:39 pm  

    Well, I don't think we would really be saying they have different racial stock. After all, the French, Germans, and English don't. They just have different cultures that developed from similar roots.

    Though I think its the opposite of what you do. I think it was the Suel Imperium and modern folks consider themselves Keoish or Cruskii or whatever. Only the fruitcakes like the Scarlet Brotherhood think otherwise. The Keoish look back on the Suel Empire similarly to how the Italians look back on the Roman Empire, imho.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:29 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Though I think its the opposite of what you do. I think it was the Suel Imperium and modern folks consider themselves Keoish or Cruskii or whatever. Only the fruitcakes like the Scarlet Brotherhood think otherwise. The Keoish look back on the Suel Empire similarly to how the Italians look back on the Roman Empire, imho.


    The Keoish tend to have a very peculiar view of the Suel Empire. Most of the Keoish, particularly the Rhola and Neheli, have rejected the ways of the empire that led to its destruction. That is even the general purpose of the Silent Ones.
    It is more of an ego thing to throw at others when they don't think anyone can come up with a useful retort. (Like say an SB dweeb. "Yeah, yeah. Our bloodline is as ancient as yours. Now go away before we have to crush you utterly. We rule in this valley.") Otherwise I expect they focus on building their empire, and letting the fallen one worry about itself.
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    Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:03 am  

    I guess to me it would be like calling yourself Caucasian because the vast majority of your racial type came from the Caucasian Imperium. And if it truly was the Baklunsih Empire then why not name it for where their society originated Pre-Hegira? (And if not then why call that race Baklunish?)

    I understand that many design choices (Gygax 'n' company) were made because it was easiest... which I fully support. (Just look at population figures.)

    I don't want to see an FR retcon of the racial stereotypes of the Flanaess based on census data and genetic research of a nation's population. I am fine with Flan, Suel, Baklunish, Oeridian, etc. no matter that it is probably unrealistic.

    Which is why I think an expansion of Greyhawk from the Flanaess should have an "east coast bias" (Flannae Oeridian bias) and shouldn't introduce a multitude of new races. Any new racial type should have design reason for existing... I am sure other Greyhawkers might want to have a different race for each new nation based on 'realism', I would avoid that if possible.
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    Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:20 am  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    I guess to me it would be like calling yourself Caucasian because the vast majority of your racial type came from the Caucasian Imperium. And if it truly was the Baklunsih Empire then why not name it for where their society originated Pre-Hegira? (And if not then why call that race Baklunish?)



    I don't understand your objection here. It seems to me that quite a few empires and the races that occupied them were identically named. The Roman Empire, the Persian Empire. Siamese from Siam. Sometimes the people are named for the place (Romans from Rome), other times the place is named for the people (Russia from the Rus).

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Baklunish Empire had a name in Baklunish that has been lost in time or something of that sort. But otherwise, the main difference with the real world is that there are a lot more tribal ethnicities and subsequent invasions than occurred in Greyhawk.
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    Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:05 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    It is interesting to note that the political boundaries of Greyhawk are extremely complex (Duchy this, Principality that, County this, Kingdom of etc.) If you then try to make the Ratikans different racially from Suel barbarians or southern Oeridians which is basically what FR does (if I remember their PC creation correctly), I don't think it adds anything to the game.

    I think we agree that Greyhawk's complex political landscape is one of its compelling features. Indeed, as another poster mentioned, the fact that the WoG detailed, or at least sketched, the ancestral races of humanity added significantly to its verisimilitude, and on this point, the FR campaign setting followed imperfectly and relatively lately.

    Taking Lassiviren's example, I don't want anyone to distinguish Ratikans from Rhizians or "souther Oeridians" racially because I think doing so reifies the ignorant yet popular conception of race as naturally biologistic and counters understanding how race is constructed socially.

    However, I would like a sourcebook that intelligently provided character creation options that simulated distinctive backgrounds, e.g., a human PC was born and raised in a coastal city of Ratik. In D&D terms, I think that skills, feats, and languages are the best way to get at this. Similarly, I'd like a sourcebook that could help characters be distinguished as to their social class background, e.g., on PC from Marner was the son of fisherfolk; another the daughter of a magnate.

    For me, the ancestral races of Oerth's humanity are just that. I'd want a sourcebook to help me represent well a Tenha refugee in the Theocracy of the Pale, an Arapahi warrior, a woodsman from Geoff, and a Stoneholder--not a Flan. In this way the book would help me simulate the richness of the Flanaess and help communicate such to my players, be they GH fans or newcomers to the setting.
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    Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:54 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:

    I don't understand your objection here. It seems to me that quite a few empires and the races that occupied them were identically named. The Roman Empire, the Persian Empire. Siamese from Siam. Sometimes the people are named for the place (Romans from Rome), other times the place is named for the people (Russia from the Rus).


    I think you are making my point for me. In "modern day" Greyhawk, realistically (except for maybe the SB) no one would use the terms Suel, Baklunish, Flan, etc. except for historians. And after a few hundred years of interbreeding no one would know the difference including historians.

    What I don't want to see is a "ravaging" of the basic simple races based on nationality....which kinda brings back the whole point of Anakeri and expanding Oerik, I think it behooves "us" (since there is no official developement of Greyhawk) to stick with simple races and not base races on nationality, thats all I am saying. If we start calling the western Oeridians "Lynnians" or whatever I think we lose some Greyhawk flavor, perhaps I am wrong but I think thats what I am trying to say. Just as if someone was going to detail the lands of Rhavilla I wouldn't expect to see new races of elves.

    Are the Touv simply Anakeris transplants? Are the Olman? Are the Zahindi simply Suel/Touv descendents? Or is everything west of the Crystalmists a brand new race and culture?

    I vote for the "less is more" style of human races. But maybe I am just a raving lunatic for Greyhawk purity? Happy
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    Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:23 am  

    Well it depends on the level of detail you're looking at. On a continent wide scale, you can break things down by race: Oerids, Bakluni, Suel, Touv, Olman, Suhfangi etc and various admixtures. Once you get down to a smaller level, you can start classifying people by nation and realm. Depending on the nation, this is probably how people view themselves and others.

    For example - I'm from Zahind, you're from Mulwar. We're both Zahindi/Kersi whatever - but I hate you because our realms are traditional enemies.

    I'm also sure that there are more races on the Oerth than the ones encountered in Canon. Suhfang and the deserts of Hitaxa and SW Oerth are bound to have at least one distinctive race each.

    P.
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    Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:54 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:

    If you look at Anakeris in terms of latitudes, it ranges from roughly 10 S to well nigh 70-80 S.


    10 degrees south latitude? Did you get this from some map I'm unaware of? The only map I've seen showing Anakeris and latitude lines shows the northern shore reaching to 35 degrees south, and the southern end I believe was in the 70 to 80 degrees south range you mentioned.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but if there's a map showing the continent extending all the way up to 10 degrees south, I'd like to see that.
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    Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:50 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:

    It is not necessary to make the elves into an ancient civilization that has apparently withered into a few scattered settlements in order to make them "robust". Neither is the only alternative to that to make the elves into a sideshow to humanity.


    Consider the lifespan of the elves, and their reproductive rate compared to humans. Even if the elves had developed a civilized society long before humans...even ten times as long as humanity has had civilizations on par with the old city-states on ancient Mesopotamia here on Earth...their reproductive rate being so much lower than humans, not just in the time between generations, but also in how many children they have. I've always envisioned elves having fewer children compared to humans. Where the typical medieval human couple may have 7 or 8 children (for example), an elven couple having four children might be considered a large family by elven standards.
    Given that, the elves simply would not have the population to build human style empires. Furthermore, as has already been stated in some form or other, elves are not just "skinny people with pointy ears". They have a perspective entirely unique to them (as do dwarves, gnomes, and so on). Elves may see the humans building empires as a colossal exercise in futility, and therefore, a waste of elven time. ("Human, I have seen nations rise, and seen those same nations fall, and yet I remain.")
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    Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:20 am  

    About the human 'races' of Oerth:
    The statement in the Guide to the World of Greyhawk says there are few pure racial groups on the Flanaess; they've pretty much blended except in the fringe areas. (I paraphrased.) So in most places, a person will be a mixture of ethnicities. Since it makes no real difference in game terms (none of them get a bonus or penalty to an ability score, for example, just for being a specific ethnic type), all it really comes down to is physical appearance. People with more Suloise ancestry have paler skin and lighter hair, people with more Flan blood have the bronze skin tone, etc. I see it more as a tool for determining superficial characteristics more than anything else. However, it can be used by a DM for roleplaying purposes too. An NPC with a strong grudge against Tenh will most likely react negatively to anyone who looks "too Flan", for example.

    As for racial types for all of Oerth, I think the number should be kept down. In real world Earth, there's maybe 10 at most "races". (And I think I'm aiming a bit high on that number actually.) I can't see Oerth having many more than that without getting bogged down in minutiae. I think time could be better spent on coming up with interesting and unique cultures rather than worrying about what color skin and hair a group of people has.
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