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    Canonfire :: View topic - Cataclysmic Geography - Glacial Lake Yeomani
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    Cataclysmic Geography - Glacial Lake Yeomani
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:59 am  
    Cataclysmic Geography - Glacial Lake Yeomani

    I thought I would follow up on a conversation in the Greychat room this past Tuesday. I proposed the Yeomanry might have been formed as the result of the collapse of a glacial lake ice dam.

    Long story short - geographic features carved by water may occur over long periods of time - the Grand Canyon - or they may occur virtually over night - the Scablands of Washington State. In the later case, a flood of near biblical proportions occurred when Glacial Lake Missoula (Montana) drained. The glacial lake was held back by an ice dam 2000 feet high and when the ice dam ruptured, the entire lake, think Lake Michigan, drained in a single titantic incident. It flooded from Montana through Washington State to the Pacific, creating the Scablands.

    Here is a map - http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/assets/maps/vt_map.jpg

    Here is more information on Glacial Lake Missoula/Montana and Ice Age Floods - http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/

    In our dear Flanaess, the depression or bowl that, in canon, is the Yeomanry might have formed when a glacial lake's ice dam ruptured (in the Hellfurnaces, Crystalmists of Jotuns). This could also explain the Hool Marshes. A giant flood carving out a depression or bowl in the Yeomanry as flood water from the glacial lake move from the mountains to the sea.

    Or not. I prefer the Yeomanry as an upland/alpine plateau, not a festering subtropical depression.

    Take a look at the links.
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    GVD
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    Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:57 am  

    I have a problem with a large glacier forming the Hool Marshes. Too far south and if you postulate continental drift then time becomes a problem with keeping the Marshes around. However, I can see something similar on a smaller scale contributing in a series of cascading events: volcano melts smallish glacier, earthquake, alpine lake drains, perhaps even one as large as all the lands between Loftwic and the Hellfurnaces.

    For what it is worth, I also do not see the Yeomanry as “festering subtropical depression.” I see it as a two stage elevated basin. West of the Little Hills/Tors it is higher than the Javan/Hool Lowlands. West of Loftwic it is even higher.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:12 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I have a problem with a large glacier forming the Hool Marshes. Too far south and if you postulate continental drift then time becomes a problem with keeping the Marshes around.


    If you look at the map link I posted, distance is not a factor in this case. It is close enough.

    Continental drift takes millenia. A sudden collapse of an ice dam and the draining of a substantial glacial lake takes at most weeks.

    Continential drift from the time of the last ice age (Dungeon 83) would not seem an issue either as only thousands of years are involved, not millions.

    However, I am not a fan of the canon description of the climate of the Yeomanry either. Smile
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    GVD
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    Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:31 am  

    First, in what may be the shocker of the decade, GVD and I agree on this. The Yeomanry should be elevated and cooler.

    As for the glacial lake, remember that the Crystalmists are right there. The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl has a passage that leads right into the Yeomanry. So the whole valley should be getting massive glacial water flow.
    As for it being an upland, note how high all the surrounding mountains are. The Jotens are huge, the Little Hills almost mountains, and the Tors massive. The Yeomanry would have to be almost gouged out to not be an upland plateau.
    So I can easily see some sort of lake up there, and it should definitely have a major river leading into the Javan.

    As for such a glacial lake creating the Hool Marsh, note that it would be more from a subsidence effects of a massive release of water into the lowlands. With this scheme, pre-Twin Cats there was no Hool Marsh, or at least a much reduced one (some marsh would be needed because of development with lizard men in relation to the Dreadwood, unless those settlments were redefined as being just a lowland tropical community, which might even work better), which would make movement from the Yeomanry to Jeklea Bay a lot easier for early migrants (which also works better, as it seems rather absurd that colonists would want to cross a marsh that size instead of just going up the Javan). When the Twin Cats hits, the lake melts, the marsh expands, and the people that come through Slerotin's tunnel have to go east across the Good Hills instead of just charging south along the rivers. It would require some revision to things I've written, but I think that might work even better as an overall concept.

    So I like the idea.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:58 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    So I can easily see some sort of lake up there, and it should definitely have a major river leading into the Javan.


    I can see that too, perhaps I am being mislead by the idea of glacial ice of the nature that covered Cananda. A lot of ice, but not that much.

    The river is not there, and you have a narrow gap between the hills, so that rules out a bunch of little unmarked rivers, so perhaps the necessary conclusion is that there is an under ground river with a lot of feeders.
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    Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:37 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    First, in what may be the shocker of the decade, GVD and I agree on this. The Yeomanry should be elevated and cooler.

    As for the glacial lake, remember that the Crystalmists are right there. The Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl has a passage that leads right into the Yeomanry. So the whole valley should be getting massive glacial water flow.
    As for it being an upland, note how high all the surrounding mountains are. The Jotens are huge, the Little Hills almost mountains, and the Tors massive. The Yeomanry would have to be almost gouged out to not be an upland plateau.
    So I can easily see some sort of lake up there, and it should definitely have a major river leading into the Javan.

    As for such a glacial lake creating the Hool Marsh, note that it would be more from a subsidence effects of a massive release of water into the lowlands. With this scheme, pre-Twin Cats there was no Hool Marsh, or at least a much reduced one (some marsh would be needed because of development with lizard men in relation to the Dreadwood, unless those settlments were redefined as being just a lowland tropical community, which might even work better), which would make movement from the Yeomanry to Jeklea Bay a lot easier for early migrants (which also works better, as it seems rather absurd that colonists would want to cross a marsh that size instead of just going up the Javan). When the Twin Cats hits, the lake melts, the marsh expands, and the people that come through Slerotin's tunnel have to go east across the Good Hills instead of just charging south along the rivers. It would require some revision to things I've written, but I think that might work even better as an overall concept.

    So I like the idea.


    Yup. We agree. Smile And I like Sam's ideas for further developing the idea, particularly of tying things into the Glacial Rift. Cool
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:11 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    The river is not there, and you have a narrow gap between the hills, so that rules out a bunch of little unmarked rivers, so perhaps the necessary conclusion is that there is an under ground river with a lot of feeders.


    The Living Greyhawk Yeomanry site has a river on its map.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:05 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Wolfsire wrote:
    The river is not there, and you have a narrow gap between the hills, so that rules out a bunch of little unmarked rivers, so perhaps the necessary conclusion is that there is an under ground river with a lot of feeders.


    The Living Greyhawk Yeomanry site has a river on its map.


    Nice. And I supposed under the defintion I proposed, it is canon. To take back what I said about a bunch of little unmarked rivers, one could say that the Burn River would have been big enough to show, but only for the 60 miles to the Javan, east of the Long Pond. Not really long enough to show. On the Darlene map, I see 3-4 rivers, most tributaries, that are 3-4 hexes long, but none that are only 2.
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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:20 am  

    I am not sure if you can still find it but the USDA and USFS released a topographic poster map (it's hanging in my office) of Glacial Lake Missoula and the Channeled Scablands its digitally rendered but looks like a regular USDA topographic map. It is very cool.

    So assuming you are not talking about natural environment changes occuring 12,000 years ago, what caused this particular glacial lake to form and then burst?

    [edit] Oh okay, I see that Samwise surmises that that it wouldn't necessarily be a glacial lake but an increase in glacial runoff that creates the Hool due to the volcanizing of the Crystalmists. But if the Yeomanry is a depression one could expect there to be a rather larger lake left behind not to mention a de-populating of the flooded lands. Think India during the monsoon season.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Wolfsire wrote:
    The river is not there, and you have a narrow gap between the hills, so that rules out a bunch of little unmarked rivers, so perhaps the necessary conclusion is that there is an under ground river with a lot of feeders.


    The Living Greyhawk Yeomanry site has a river on its map.


    Horrible names on that map, demonstrating an almost total lack of imagination, IMO. And the place is so wooded, according to the map, that you'd think some of that would show on the Darlene etc. maps - but no. I say PASS.
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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:44 pm  

    Well, the names do read like a its a map of england, which could be considered a lack of imagination.

    But I agree that there is way too much woodlands there for the open nature of the land as mapped previously. There should be some woods covering a significant minority of the land, but that sure looks like its mostly woodlands.

    I suppose retconning all the "open" lands on the Flanaess map to be 80% woodlands would help explain the low population figures, though.... :P
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:58 pm  

    The map does say "woods", but there are "woods" and then there are "woods". Perhaps they are more like scrub than forest or grasslands, perhaps heading from one to the other with elevation.
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:24 pm  

    The worst name on that map is "the Sylvan Woods," an exquisite redundancy. The others seem more or less on par with the name of the country itself, which is also not very imaginative.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:00 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    [edit] Oh okay, I see that Samwise surmises that that it wouldn't necessarily be a glacial lake but an increase in glacial runoff that creates the Hool due to the volcanizing of the Crystalmists. But if the Yeomanry is a depression one could expect there to be a rather larger lake left behind not to mention a de-populating of the flooded lands. Think India during the monsoon season.


    Right, just lots of meltoff from an area formerly filled with significant amounts of water.
    And it doesn't stay because the Yeomanry is elevated, and it all pours out through that gap between the Little Hills and the Tors. I figure there is a nice plateau cliff there, or at least a band of swiftly dropping elevation. Either would make a river all but unavigable.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:05 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The worst name on that map is "the Sylvan Woods," an exquisite redundancy. The others seem more or less on par with the name of the country itself, which is also not very imaginative.


    Well GLH and I tried "Kendeenil" as a local name, derived from the Kendeen Pass. Perhaps another name will eventually present itself.
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    Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:43 am  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    I am not sure if you can still find it but the USDA and USFS released a topographic poster map (it's hanging in my office) of Glacial Lake Missoula and the Channeled Scablands its digitally rendered but looks like a regular USDA topographic map. It is very cool.


    That would be cool to see!
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    Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:52 am  

    With respect to the Hool Marshes, subsidence has been mentioned. Consider also spring sapping. Spring sapping is an alternative theory for the formation of the Carolina Bays/pocosins - the other theory being meteor swarm impacts. See http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2089

    Carolina Bays/pocosins are oval shaped depressions, often with pronounced rim formation focused primarily on one side. They are found throughout the Eastern Seaboard but mainly in North and South Carolina. Spring sapping of the terrain is one of two leading theories for their formation - the other being impacts - but no firm conclusions are to be had.

    The cool thing about Carolina Bays/pocosins is that they form ideal habitat for carnivorous plants. Indeed, many Bays/pocosins are almost exclusive habitats for carnivorous plants. In the Hools Marshes, add in intelligent plants to the carnivorous ones and the Carolina Bay/pocosin idea gets some traction, IMO.
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    Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:02 am  

    Long ago Nakimas crawled out of the depths of the oceans and made its home in the Hool Marshes. Some even say it created the Hool Marshes for its own repose, and long has it rested. But recently, over the last few centuries as powerful forces have invaded the Marshes, it has been aroused and taken a modicum of interest in its surroundings. It is now worshipped by at least one tribe of bullywugs, and indirectly by thousands of lizardmen through its works. -Draft text from Dank Den of the Bull Wug Wug

    U1-3 make it clear that the two hexes near the town of Saltmarsh are tidal saltmarshes.

    The name "Hool Marshes" as opposed to "Hool Marsh" suggest that the marshes are different in different places. The various modules that have been set there indicates the same as everyone has a different take.

    I kind of like incorporating all different kinds of ideas. I still haven't got my head around those two hexes in the Hold that are on the Hool river, but not in the Hool Marshes, but where the Hool Marshes are both up river and down river. I figure they are part of the Plar's holdings, but I am not even certain of that.
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    Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:40 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Lassiviren wrote:
    I am not sure if you can still find it but the USDA and USFS released a topographic poster map (it's hanging in my office) of Glacial Lake Missoula and the Channeled Scablands its digitally rendered but looks like a regular USDA topographic map. It is very cool.


    That would be cool to see!


    I am not sure how good a digital camera would do with a poster but I might give it a shot, it is really cool. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet was truly massive especially when you view it covering almost the whole of BC and Alberta.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:54 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Lassiviren wrote:
    I am not sure if you can still find it but the USDA and USFS released a topographic poster map (it's hanging in my office) of Glacial Lake Missoula and the Channeled Scablands its digitally rendered but looks like a regular USDA topographic map. It is very cool.


    That would be cool to see!


    I am not sure how good a digital camera would do with a poster but I might give it a shot, it is really cool. The Cordilleran Ice Sheet was truly massive especially when you view it covering almost the whole of BC and Alberta.


    Or you could get it for $11.95 at http://www.rockymountainmaps.com/item/362/
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    Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:57 am  

    Very cool, I looked for somewhere to buy it online and couldn't find anything. Happy

    Its worth 12 bucks if you like those kinds of maps.

    I live in Missoula by the way, and used to work for the Forest Service (at the time it came out I got the poster for free), so don't think I am some weird GIS crack pot. Laughing
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    Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:42 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    ... so don't think I am some weird GIS crack pot. Laughing


    If you were, you might enjoy this: http://nationalatlas.gov/natlas/Natlasstart.asp

    Shaded relief is buried in Geology, Mineral Operations.
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