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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ring of Five - what's their agenda?
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    Ring of Five - what's their agenda?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat May 06, 2006 12:43 pm  
    Ring of Five - what's their agenda?

    Any information on the agenda of Zagyg's Ring of Five would be greatly appreciated. Has to be more than just generic "magical research", but I can't find much info. Thanks.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun May 07, 2006 5:31 am  

    The Ring of Five are odd to say the least. They have the feel of being cobbled together from the names of certain prominent spell casters and lobbed into GH Ruins to liven up the bottom of one of the towers.

    You have Serten (who LGJ 1 tells us was killed at Emridy Meadows), we have Leomund (who's vanished, though may have last been seen in Medegia - where he was from), we have Jaran Krimeeah (Mage of the Valley, who rumour has it has vanished onto the Plane of Shadow), we have Melf (who appears to be alive and kicking) and we have Zagyg (demi-god and trickster). Given the spread of alingments and goals, it's hard to say what their common goal was - though something related to the worship of Boccob is possible. They clearly were more active in the 560s (since Emridy Meadows was around 570 CY). Since then, the vanishings of their members means either (a) they're no longer extant - (though what their apprentices are up to is another question) or (b) there's some link between the vanishing of Leomund and The Black One that's not been heretofore revealed.


    Last edited by Woesinger on Sun May 07, 2006 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sun May 07, 2006 8:21 am  

    It's likely that each have their own independent goals, but they all meet to have access to the Obelisk beneath Castle Greyhawk and to benefit from one another's discoveries.

    A couple links:
    http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/node/135
    http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/LoV/page27.html
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 07, 2006 3:21 pm  

    Thanks for the links, Ras. Interesting reads. I still think Woesinger's first paragraph sums it up though - I don't see a logical reason for the creation of this group. Interesting note at the top of the second link, from Mordy -

    "If my information is correct (and it usually is) the Ring of Five was formed only twenty years ago, ironically, in response to my own activist endeavours"

    I assume that's a Co8 reference, which would take us away from the 'magical research' idea. Potentially more interesting (are they at odds w/ the Circle?). Would like to see this fleshed out...
    GreySage

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    Sun May 07, 2006 3:57 pm  

    Greyhawk Ruins mentions that they're rivals to the Circle of Eight as well (on page 3).

    Interesting. Perhaps Zagyg has a view of the Balance that differs from Mordenkainen's. Or perhaps they're just competing with one another in magical research. Perhaps the Ring of Five and Circle of Eight have the same goal, but they each want to reach it first, or control it utterly.

    In room P834 beneath Castle Greyhawk's Tower of Power there is a map of the planes of existence, including five demiplanes created by the Ring of Five, that it says the Circle of Eight would pay up to 50,000 gp to see.
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    Tue May 09, 2006 6:52 am  
    The Legend of Serten

    This is slightly off-topic, but I have always found the figure of Serten a little confusing. As of LGJ 1 (aleady quoted), he was not only slain at Emridy Meadows, but was also a member of the Citadel of Eight (the predecessor organization to the Circle) and there is no evidence that he left it before his death. This makes his (presumably concurrent) membership of the Ring of Five rather odd - especially if, as the passage btgrover has already cited implies, the Ring of Five was founded to oppose Mordenkainen's "activist endeavours" (which must refer to the Citadel and not, as one might expect, the Co8, since the Circle was not founded until after Serten's own death). "In response too..." does not necessarily entail an adversarial relationship, of course, but that is the more natural reading.
    The other canon oddity is that LGJ 1 goes to some pains to paint Serten as not being terribly bright. He is described as "the dim-witted but well-meaning Serten" and it is added that "Serten, though seen as useful, was never truly respected". All this is a bit odd when applied to a founder of the Ring of Five and presumed creator of an eighth level spell (although his authorship got airbrushed in 3.0), who is also described elsewhere in canon as an archmage.
    Possible solution: Serten was playing the Citadel of Eight. He was, in fact, the Ring of Five's mole within Mordenkainen's organization, putting on a facade of well-meaning ineptitude to lull the others into carelessness. He would not be the only one who managed that feat - Murlynd, who associated with the Citadel for a time, did so "in disguise" (presumably by concealing his true nature as a quasi-deity). Mordenkainen and the others only found out the truth after Serten's death. It does not account for everything, but it goes towards solving some of the problems.
    GreySage

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    Tue May 09, 2006 9:19 am  

    It's possible there was more than one Serten. The Serten described in LGJ#0 (not #1) seems to have been (based on comments by one of the authors) a cleric of St. Cuthbert; obviously, this was not the creator of Serten's Spell Immunity, an 8th level arcane spell.

    ...although I note that Greater Spell Immunity is a divine spell in this edition. So perhaps they are the same.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue May 09, 2006 2:16 pm  

    Well, for the historical perspective, the original Serten was a low-intelligence cleric played by Ernie Gygax. I suspect that Serten's spell immunity was simply named for him (being, in essence, too dumb to charm Laughing ), rather than actually being created by him. Clearly, the Ring of Five as published in Greyhawk Ruins is rubbish and contradicts other canon development of Leomund, Tuerny, and Melf. (Melf? WTF???)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue May 09, 2006 3:37 pm  

    Alright, so let's reconcile that by assuming that there were two Serten's, and the dumb priest is the one who got offed at the Battle of Emridy Meadows.

    Moving on to Melf... in my campaign, Melf is heavily influenced by the way Gygax presented him in Artifact of Evil. Yes, he's the leader of the Knights of Luna, but he finds himself increasingly at odds with Yolande and her isolationist (some would say xenophobic) politics, so he delegates his duties with the Knights, and spends most of his days traversing the Flanaess, adventuring and gathering knowledge. When painted in this light, it's not a stretch that he'd be a member of a group like the Circle of Eight or the Ring of Five.

    Anyway, I appreciate all the input. After some consideration, I've decided there's no reason for the Ro5 to exist - and so it no longer does (in my game, anyway).

    Follow up thread coming...
    GreySage

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    Tue May 09, 2006 4:37 pm  

    Melf was a member of the Citadel as well, according to the LGJ #0. So either the Citadel was riddled with spies and turncoats for the mysterious Ring of Five, or (as most have suggested) the Ring of Five should be eliminated or seriously rethought.

    I like the idea that the Circle of Eight have a group of rivals, though. Perhaps Zagyg, who is after all an ally of Mordenkainen's, wouldn't be the best personage to start such a group, but who can tell with him?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue May 09, 2006 7:12 pm  

    Excellent idea, Ras. A group of rivals to the Circle would be cool. Rary would be one obvious choice for leader - but who would band with him? It would have to be someone the Circle had thwarted at some point, or someone wanted to quell magical research or discoveries...
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    Wed May 10, 2006 1:46 am  

    Tuerny isn't a member of the Ring according to GH Ruins. I don't know where Tuerny came from or is there a contradictory canon source lurking out there?

    In terms of common members of the Ring and Citadel/Circle, you can add Leomund to the list. He was a member of the Circle in the 570's but left to make way for one of the current members IIRC.

    So - Serten, Leomund and Melf (and possibly Zagyg) all have had dealing with or worked for the Citadel/Circle.

    Now we know that the Ring must probably predate the Circle (assuming just one Serten - though we can't be certain of that [boom, boom!] :D). A possible ge- around for reconciling Serten the mage and Serten the priest, was that he was a mystic theurge or dual classed. (As an aisde - given his interest in the region - I'd have Serten hailing from either Furyondy, Veluna or Verbobonc, rather than Aerdy, as that site linked above suggested).

    So, given the overlap in membership - I'd suggest that they had largely similar goals to the Citadel/Circle, at least intially. However, as the Citadel developed into Circle, the members of the Ring of Five became disenchanted (ba dum!) with Mordy and his new philosophy of Enforced Balance and so a rivalry developed. This would explain the departure of Leomund, and the apparent distance that Melf put between himself and the Circle (the events of the Artifact of Evil notwithstanding - but given that one of the Theoparts was in play there, I'm sure even rivals can set their differences aside. In any case - it's very possible that Mordy wanted Iuz to have one of the theoparts to keep it out of the hands of the Black Brotherhood - but that's a conspiracy theory for another day).

    My gut feeling is that the Ring is/was a loose association of prominent spell casters of the time (550's, 560's - when Serten, Leomund, Melf and The Black One would have major archmages and Mordy and the current crop of archmagi were up and coming whippersnappers), which was united by its interest in magical theory and Boccob and so transcended the range of alignments of the members. There's also the fact that Zagyg imprisoned the 9 demi-gods under Castle GH. It's possible that the Ring had something to do with that or with the maintainance of the prison (hence their outpost in the ruins, albeit in a different tower).

    As the threats of Iuz , the SB, Ivid V etc developed, some of the members became more active in maintaining the Balance (Melf, Sertern, Leomund) and so cooperated with the new Citadel and this Mordenkainen fellow.

    The death of Serten at Emridy Meadows and the release of Iuz from Castle GH were probably the two defining points of breach between the two groups. Zagyg imprisoned the demigods for a reason. Given Iuz's actions after he was relseased, he may have foreseen what was to come and, with the Ring and other allies, acted to prevent or at least forestall the Wars that they knew Iuz's dominion on Oerth would bring.

    There's strong evidence that Mordy was behind the release of Iuz - using Robilar as his catspaw (see LGJ 0 and read between the lines). Not only was this possibly contrary to the goals of the Ring of Five, it may have been carried off exploiting information given to him in confidence by Ring members such as Serten, Melf or Leomund. If there's a reason for a rivalry between the two sets of archmagi, then that's the elephant in the magical laboratory. It may have taken some time for the Ring to connect the dots with Mordy's involvement - hence the lag in Leomund's departure from the Circle, but eventually they did part company.

    At this stage, though, the Ring was a fading force - with its members prusuing their own interests. Leomund seems to ahve retired to Medegia and then vanished on the planes (??). Melf became more involved in the politics of Celene. The Black One pursued his obsession with immortality onto the Plane of Shadow. And Zagyg? Well, who knows? :)

    As for rival organisations to the Circle - the perfect foil is Tenser and his associates - who are likely to champion good causes, rather than the philosophy of enforced balance that Mordy and co favour. Given the history suggested above, Tenser might find a ready ally in Melf and possibly Zagyg.


    P.
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    Wed May 10, 2006 3:05 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Well, for the historical perspective, the original Serten was a low-intelligence cleric played by Ernie Gygax. I suspect that Serten's spell immunity was simply named for him (being, in essence, too dumb to charm Laughing ), rather than actually being created by him.


    I think i read somewhere that the spell was specifically crafted for him, as he always got charmed etc.
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    Wed May 10, 2006 5:12 am  
    Serten: Two Versions LONG

    So, drawing together some strands, I can see two possible ways of reconciling the various traditions about Serten. Before I do so, here is another Serten reference which I omitted last time. It is from the description of Lakaster, the archmage-prince of Winetha, in Ivid the Undying:

    Quote:
    Lakaster always wears his Serten's ring, which confers on him a permanent Serten's spell immunity. Whether this ring truly belonged to that legendary archmage, who can say? Lakaster certainly isn't saying.


    This suggests that Serten was indeed an archmage, and (more tenuously) that he does not seem to be around anymore (or is not that good at keeping track of his accessories). His status as an archmage in this passage probably stems from the notion that he created the spell which bears his name - although, as others have noted, this is not necessarily a valid assumption - but for what it is worth, there it is.

    Two versions, then:

    1. As Rasgon suggests, Serten the archmage and founder of the Circle of Five is different from Serten the dim-witted priest and member of the Citadel of Eight. This version is probably truest to to the historical roots of the original PC. As a riff on this... what if the two Sertens were related? In classical Athens, there was a penchant for naming a first-born son after his grandfather. What if a similar practice obtains in some parts of the Flanaess? This (rather cheesy) hypothesis also enables us to have our cake and eat it regarding the authorship of Serten's spell immunity; it was created by Serten the archmage to protect the mind of his namesake adventurer of a grandson. Serten the Younger's death without the support of his "comrades" in the Citadel of Eight might then give Serten the Elder another reason for souring on Mordenkainen and his schemes... which might in turn have been one of the factors that drove a wedge between the Citadel/Circle of Eight and the Ring of Five.

    I watch too many soap operas....

    2. As Woesinger suggests, Serten the archmage was also the dim-witted priest of the Citadel of Eight. I very much like Woesinger's suggestion that this might be explained by the hypothesis that Serten was a mystic theurge. This got me thinking. There IS one way in which an archmage can be comparatively dim-witted under 3.x rules... if he is a sorcerer rather than a wizard.
    This might also help to explain why Serten received so little respect from the other members of the Citadel, yet acquitted himsel so well at Emridy Meadows. In game terms, theurges go through a period (lasting from at least 4th to 6th level, and possibly a little beyond that as well) when they are underpowered in comparison to more focused adventurers; they do become very powerful, but only at higher levels. This is a particular problem for celeric/sorcerer theurges, because they gain access to higher level arcane spells more slowly. One can well imagine Mordy and the gang becoming accustomed to good old Serten, chugging along with his helpful but not terribly exciting array of low-level arcane and dvine spells, and missing the point at which he became a force to be reckoned with.
    On this reading, Serten developed his namesake spell (which, despite the similarity in names, is better represented in my view by protection from spells than by greater spell immunity in 3.5), in the spontaneous fashion that sorcerers do when they hit the appropriate level; more methodical casters later learned to copy it. It is, perhaps, rather less likely that this version of Serten would have been interested in founding as cerebral an organization as the Ring of Five seems to have been, but not impossible: nothing says that a low-INT character cannot have an interest in magical theory, even if he is not as good at it as a wizard would be. Here is what this Serten might have looked like just before his death:

    Serten of St. Cuthbert, of the Citadel of Eight, of the Ring of Five: cleric 3 (St. Cuthbert)/ sorcerer 4/ mystic theurge 10/ archmage 2. Spell-casting abilities of a 13th level cleric and a 16th level sorcerer (8th level spell known: protection from spells); high WIS, high CHA, low INT.
    GreySage

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    Wed May 10, 2006 7:19 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Tuerny isn't a member of the Ring according to GH Ruins. I don't know where Tuerny came from or is there a contradictory canon source lurking out there?


    No. The Tuerny connection was something Gary Holian invented in the early days of Greytalk (the history of Zagig Yragerne I linked to above was written by him). He didn't like the Melf connection, so he chose another named personage that didn't - at the time - have any other canon burdening him.

    The above article interprets him as a Baklunish mage, a rival of Rary's. Obviously, that doesn't work with Return of the Eight (or Ivid the Undying, for that matter), but it doesn't seem unreasonable for the nalfeshnee wizard Tuerny from Rot8 to join an association of archmagi of various alignments.

    I don't mind Melf as an archmage, though. We were discussing converting Melf to D&D 3.5 in another thread; I said in 3.5 he'd probably be something like Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Archmage 2; his High Arcana would be Arcane Fire and Mastery of Elements. Or maybe acid arrows as a spell-like ability.

    Of course, others disagreed.
    GreySage

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    Wed May 10, 2006 7:31 am  
    Re: Serten: Two Versions LONG

    Prochytes wrote:
    Serten the Younger's death without the support of his "comrades" in the Citadel of Eight might then give Serten the Elder another reason for souring on Mordenkainen and his schemes... which might in turn have been one of the factors that drove a wedge between the Citadel/Circle of Eight and the Ring of Five.


    Maybe both of them were at Emridy Meadows. Temple of Elemental Evil said that Zuggtmoy was bound by "opposing clerics and magic-users" "reputedly with the aid of one or more deities." So perhaps it was Serten the cleric and Serten the mage, together with St. Cuthbert and Zagyg.

    Or, if there was only one Serten, he still could have been one of those who bound the demon queen, doing so despite the strenuous objections of Mordenkainen. Prince Melf was at Emridy Meadows too, wasn't he?

    And Mordenkainen later frees the fungus queen through his tool Robilar, undoing Serten's last and greatest gift to the world.
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    Wed May 10, 2006 12:08 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:

    As for rival organisations to the Circle - the perfect foil is Tenser and his associates - who are likely to champion good causes, rather than the philosophy of enforced balance that Mordy and co favour. Given the history suggested above, Tenser might find a ready ally in Melf and possibly Zagyg.



    Tenser and his associates would indeed make a good foil. Coming at it from the other end, a possible key player in anti-Co8 cabal building would be Reydrich, the archmage of Zelradton to whom Mordenkainen said "thanks, but no thanks" when he tried to join the Circle. I can quite see Reydrich forming his own (predominantly Lawful and Evil) gang in pique.
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    Wed May 10, 2006 3:34 pm  

    Tenser is the obvious leader for a rival group to form around, Reydrich wanted the prestige and acknowledgement of his peers but even in Ivid he seems to be to worried about betrayal to "share power" to lead a group unless the members were bound to him in some way.

    I see the circle as a loose talking club that failed to realise the drive of mordy who became the central figure for the "young bloods" until he deftly and quietly assumed control over time.
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    Thu May 11, 2006 12:51 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Reydrich wanted the prestige and acknowledgement of his peers but even in Ivid he seems to be to worried about betrayal to "share power" to lead a group unless the members were bound to him in some way.


    I do not see a problem there. Reydrich is not so paranoid that he has not had at least one apprentice, Tarrak, whose entry in Ivid also makes it clear that he trained up others, too.

    Any cabal set up by Reydrich would be very different in feel from the Circle, the Ring, or Tenser's Round Blue Thing, of course, since I think that you are right that Reydrich would not put up with anyone remotely near his own power level taking part. The other members would have to do what they were told, or else. In return, Reydrich gets at a gaggle of (more or less) reliable and disposable subordinates who can investigate low-level magical matters which interest him but which he does not have the time to examine personally (bound fiends, while useful, have their limitations as field agents), and they get whatever arcane scraps the great man occasionally flings them and the conviction that he will not obliterate them (well, not today, at any rate...).
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    Thu May 11, 2006 9:44 am  

    Both Age of Worms and the Shackled City Adventure Path mention agents of Tenser that work with the PC's in order to defeat evil. These aren't fully developed but by the end of the AoW's the PC's are Tenser's primary stop gap to the growing power of Kyuss.

    From what little that we are given about "Manzorian" it seems he employs a complicated network of informants and adventuring groups to push things towards the 'good' and 'lawful' scale of the Flanaess.
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    Wed May 17, 2006 2:37 pm  

    Yes, its all true. Unfortunately there are parts of WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins that were sadly thrown together in a relative Greyhawk vaccuum. Sometimes a little bit of (GH) knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Some of Greyhawk Ruins are, however, quite interesting in my opinion, and with a little bit of work, can be incorporated into any Greyhawk campaign. As most of you know, I love taking seemingly randomly created campaign bits and weaving them together with complex, canonically-compatible (relatively, of course) threads. WGR1 is of course a prime target for this! There are many different aspects of the supermod that I've tinkered with, but in regards to the Circle of Five in particular, here is what I've done. [Goes without saying that this is all "In My Campaign" - particularly the Codex of the Infinite Planes connections!]

    When Zagig was about town, doing stuff as a mortal, it was a long time ago. So right away I decided that the Ring of Five had to predate present personages (including the Circle of 8) by quite a bit. And after he ascended, why would he bother even associating with mortals, never mind working with them. So of course I had to dump the universally disliked choices used in WGR1. I incorporated this all into my "Arcane Timeline" which you can see more completely on my website (most of the timeline below is cut from that, with added "[*notes:]" that are new to this post).

    295 CY Zagig born
    320 CY Castle Greyhawk begun by Zagig [WGR1:Greyhawk Ruins 3]
    385 CY Zagig acquires the Codex [my Codex of the Infinite Planes webpage]
    393 CY Greyhawk Guild of Wizardry founded by Zagig [City of Greyhawk Boxed Set: Folk, Feuds, Factions booklet 16]
    411 CY Last public sighting of Zagig
    420 CY Fraz-Urb'luu imprisoned by Zagig [*note: Zagig experimenting with trapping powerful beings, realized it was difficult enough to do one by himself, nevermind what he was planning to do]

    421 CY Castle Greyhawk mysteriously abandoned
    Due to Zagig's increasingly focused research, lack of attention to day-to-day matters in the huge castle complex results in several unattended "experiments" going wrong. Many died, some escaped.

    422 CY Zagig founds the Ring of Five
    Zagig's research into the advanced principles of magic procedes far enough that he realizes he needs help. After careful thought he then assembles a group of powerful mages, choosing members with differing alignments for reasons relating to the type of research he was planning; the group consists of Zagig (N), Keoghtom (NG), Tuerny (CE), Daern (LN) and Evard (NE) (this list is different than the inappropriate list given in WGR1). Together they created numerous magic items (see entry for 505 CY), among other accomplishments. Through this research, and with help from the both the Obelisk [WGR1:Greyhawk Ruins 67] and the Codex [CotIP], several members were to later achieve immortality. [*note: I decided on this more 8 years before "Return of the 8" was published, and Tuerny's appearance therein.]

    505 CY Iuz and the Nine imprisoned by Zagig and the Ring of Five
    In my campaign, Zagyg (using the Codex) in concert with the Ring of Five, imprisons the Nine in a specially constructed prison, perhaps with some outside help [WGR5:Iuz the Evil 5 lists Zagyg, St.Cuthbert, Heward, Murlynd, Keoghtem and Kelanen, though I personally do not use this explanation in my campaign]. As for the complete list of the Nine "Demigods", I use Iuz, Wastri, and Olidammara as powers native to Oerth, and an as-yet-to-be-determined solar, heirarch modron, baatezu lord, tanar'ri lord, yugoloth lord, and slaadi lord in a sort of arcane planar-magic equation. The official list from Gygax's original campaign as reported by Rob Kuntz is Obad-hai, Olidammara, Hextor, Celestion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnil, and Heironious. [*note: Using their combined might and drawing both arcane and divine magical energies from the specially-imprisoned Nine, the Ring of Five manage to chip the Obelisk - the true reason why the Nine were imprisoned for. From those chips, they create the special magic-item forge at the bottom of the Tower of Power. This is where all of Daern's Instant Fortresses, Zagyg's Prisons, and countless other items were created. Energies syphoned from the imprisoned Nine is also what members of the Ring used to become immortal]

    555 CY the Citadel of 8 founded
    563 CY the Circle of 8 founded

    There's alot more to the details I've worked out of exactly what Zagig and the Ring were up to (IMC), both as a group and as individuals, but this should be enough to wet your appetites!

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
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    Thu May 18, 2006 1:00 am  
    A Tale of Two Sertens

    I guess everyone's seen Erik's post over on the Wizards boards about Serten. He goes with there being two Sertens.

    The one that hung with the Citadel of Eight and died at Emridy Meadows was a cleric of Cuthbert.

    The one in the Ring of Five was a "legendary" archmage - possibly from Aerdy and probably now vanished or deceased, given the fact that a Ring bearing his name is in the possession of Prince Lakaster of Winetha and nothing's been heard about/from him in years.

    It's possible that Serten the Archmage and Serten the Priest were related, as discussed above (I kind of like the name Serten the Elder...).

    The Ring of Five in GH Ruins is an odd and obviously cobbled together group, but as Maldin said - it's fun weaving these kind of happenstances into the background. I stand by my theory that the Ring was active in the late 400s and early to mid 500's CY when Serten the Elder, Jaran Krimeeah, Leomund and Melf would have been in their prime (and of course Zagyg would have already ascended - though he may have hidden this fact from the others). It's possible that the Ring acted as an inspiration to Mordenkainen to found the Citadel of Eight (and later the Circle).

    What united this disparate group? I think I went imy ideas on this up-thread - but to recap in brief: a shared devotion to magic or Boccob and/or a commitment to the Balance. It's likely that the Ring had some part to play in the imprisoning of the Nine (with help from other quasi-deities and Cuthbert - this might be an explanation why Serten the Younger was devoted to Cuthbert btw), in part to maintain the Balance (as they saw it - by taking Iuz out of play and balancing his "loss" with the "loss" of eight other demi-gods) and in part to use their power to fuel experiments on the Obelisk in the depths of GH Castle as described by Maldin (hence the presence of their apprentices there). The capture of the Nine might have been prerequisite to/final stage in Zagyg's apotheosis, since I can't recall any date being placed on that. Given the fact that all of the other members (bar Melf) have vanished, it's possible that they successfully harnessed the power of the Obelisk to achieve their own disparate ends.

    Another interesting thing to jive off the Ring is that their apprentices should now be powerful mages (assuming they're still alive) and can be used as mover/shaker or wheel within wheel NPCs in adventures.

    P.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 21, 2006 6:37 pm  

    Thanks, Woe, Mona's thoughts on Serten make sense.
    ____________________________________________

    " The official list from Gygax's original campaign as reported by Rob Kuntz is Obad-hai, Olidammara, Hextor, Celestion, Iuz, Ralishaz, Trithereon, Erythnil, and Heironious."

    Well, that's certainly a tangible reason to band together. That's an insanely powerful group of gods. Iuz alone would be a handful, but Hextor AND Heironeous to boot? Has anyone ever written about HOW these gods were ensnared?
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun May 21, 2006 9:51 pm  

    Well, one quibble is that most of those gods were not as powerful in Gygax's pre "Published Greyhawk" campaign as they were in the version that saw print.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon May 22, 2006 4:55 am  

    Yeah - I believe the Nine that were imprisoned in Canon were all demi-gods. Still a pretty big undertaking even with the various quasi-deities, Cuthbert and the Ring of Five mucking in.

    P.
    GreySage

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    Mon May 22, 2006 6:08 am  

    Rob Kuntz's list is problematic. They were demigods in Gygax's original campaign, but they weren't demigods in the campaign setting that he actually published. I believe he didn't give a specific list in the setting book for a good reason - probably several. One of those reasons was that his original roster doesn't make much sense now that he's statted them.

    In a recent ENWorld post, Gary Gygax claimed that Zagyg was more powerful than any of the gods he imprisoned, although he still made extensive use of trickery to accomplish the deed.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue May 23, 2006 8:27 am  
    What goes around...

    For more discussion of the nine demi-gods, see the comments at the end of the following article: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=77
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    Tue May 23, 2006 7:29 pm  

    But they weren't captured individually, correct? By all accounts and across all disparate lists, they were bound in the same ceremony? If that's the case, then Kuntz's list definitely doesn't work for MY campaign, setting aside the question of what canon is or should be. If they were ensnared individually, it could be explained away, I suppose - although once those worthies were free, Zagyg's days would have been numbered, no?


    So in sum: I don't know who's in the Ring of Five, and I don't know who the 9 Demi-Gods were, but I now can say with confidence that the one was formed, among other reasons, to trap the other.

    Which answers the question that started this thread. So thanks.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:06 pm  

    btgrover wrote:
    But they weren't captured individually, correct?


    I think they must have been captured individually, as it's exceedingly unlikely that St. Cuthbert would have aided in any attempt at capturing LG or LN gods. Iuz, yes - he had special permission from the greater gods (including Nerull and Incabulos!) to get him, but nothing beyond that.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:41 am  

    I always thought the Ring of Five was lame. You can change the names around (and really, to salvage the concept you have to), but still.

    --Erik
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