It's true, there may be. I'm of the mind that there is no Baklunish war god, though. There was some #greytalk discussion of this the other night, and the most promising answers to me were:
(1) As devotees of Istus, the Baklunish could couch their warmaking in terms of "fate." I don't personally see Istus as a war goddess, and I believe expanding her portfolio in that direction would be a mistake. However, that does not mean her followers, preoccupied with fate and such, are precluded from using their religion as a vehicle for justifying war. (Please refrain from hi-jacking this thread, using it to bash religion, based on my last statement.)
(2) Hero worship is an established institution in Baklunish religious culture. When war comes, the Bakkies could look to their ancestors for inspiration. Azor'alq and others could fill this role nicely.
(3) Traditional elementalism, while not directly linked to a cult of war, has been known to drive other militaristic societies. For reference, note that the Tuigan Horde of the FRSC looked to Teylas, an aspect of Akadi. It was suggested that Dorgha Torgu could have filled this role for the Baklunish, at least prior to the Invoked Devastation. I'm not as comfortable with using him as such, but...
... I'm of the mind that, in the absence of a culture-wide god of war, all of these answers might be true. The more settled Baklunish of the south might have couched their struggles in terms of fate, calling on Istus for guidance. The paynim of the central plains may have stuck to traditional elementalism, and both could have looked to hero cults for inspiration.
Rasgon brings up the point I subscribe too, that being that the Baklunish pantheon was never fully developed in the first place. Later authors seemed to only be interested in elevating to divinity names that were responsible for creating some artifact or having some area named after them, for the most part. At least we now have Mouqol as a commerce deity for he Baklunish, but other than that there is only the elevation of Azor' Alq as a hero-deity(which is acceptable to me), and Al' Akbar who in a matter of a few centuries has apparently supplanted the worship of every major Baklunish deity as the main god of the pantheon(which I certainly do NOT find acceptable).
The Baklunish too have a strong warrior tradition, so it seems very likely that they have some sort of warrior god. Lacking one in the pantheon, I would vote for Istus, as not only is she the main deity of the pantheon, but there is also the Fate angle as well.
That being said, I’d prefer to have a warrior god who appeared along with the other gods shortly after the chaos wars, when the gods were establishing themselves and their followers began to people the Oerth. As to heroic myths of the god, defeating various monstrous spawn of the chaos wars that looked to destroy his and his fellow Baklunish god's early followers serves to make up some of the early myths of the warrior god's fighting prowess. The war god may even have come into conflict with elemental powers, djinn, or other powers that sought to take advantage of his followers or trick him in some way, though he outsmarted them through some daring tactic. Daring tactics are in fact one of the main hallmarks of the god.
The god is not just some monster slayer though, but also a defender of his people, as he(and the other gods) help their followers carve their place on the Oerth by fighting off various threats, perhaps from other peoples, elder races, monsters, and the "Forces of Darkness". As the Baklunish pantheon has a strongly neutral bent, and as I think that this sort of deity would favor all manner of tactics to preserve his followers, I would make him Neutral, with good tendencies due to conflict with mostly evil forces in the past. This war god aids those followers who seek to protect that which is sacred to the god- the Baklunish people. I'd also make the war god a god of daring, but not recklessness. This is a wily and cunning war god who succeeds through the use of brilliant and daring tactics, not an invulnerable behemoth who merely wades into battle swinging a huge weapon of some kind. The god expects his martial worshippers to follow this example.
And so that is my take on a Baklunish god of war. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I'm not sure. I see the Baklunish as revering the whole pantheon rather than particular gods, adopting the Four Feet of the Dragon as a way of life, and calling on the spirits of their warrior ancestors to tip Fate in their favour when it comes to war.
The exception does seem to be Al'Akbar but I took him to be a 'Jesus-like' figure used as the 'poster boy' for the pantheon by many people but not supplanting reverence of the pantheon a whole.
Al'Akbar is more of a saint and prophet who is prayed to in hopes that he'll plead your case to those with the real power - the older gods of the pantheon. Because he was gifted with great healing powers by the gods in life, he continues to have that role in the afterlife, channeling those powers the gods choose to grant him to aid those in need of protection and hope.
But he's just a demigod for a reason. If he had truly supplanted the worship of any other deity (let alone all of them), he'd be a lesser god by now at the least. No, his faith demands that its adherents submit to the authority of all the gods; Al'Akbar's faith teaches one way in which to do so. The Baklunish worship Istus as the lady of Fate and the greatest of the powers in the universe - Al'Akbar teaches them how to properly worship her, and gives them a figure closer to humanity to intercede with her. It manifestly does not teach them to simply pray to Al'Akbar instead, or that Al'Akbar has the power to help them on his own. He aids those in need only if they pay the other gods the deference they deserve.
I mean supplanted figuratively, not literally, for it seems that only the old faith/new faith Islamified Baklunish gets any press these days. Al' Akbar is given more influence than I would deem necessary. That is all. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
I guess I need to do my homework before writing in the forums. There is no "War god" per se, but three of the Baklunish deities have the war domain: Azor'alq, Xan Yae, and Zuoken.
1) The Baklunish warrior follows a Heroic personage as his mentor/influence. This doesn't necessarily need to be a hero-god at all, just some famous figure.
2) The Baklunish warrior follows the fates of war and Istus is worshipped for her role measuring the threads...
3) The Baklunish warrior follows after Xan Yae... who I just like.
One poster has suggested creating a war god and has some very good backup for his claims. I like this approach too, but I've always been careful not to mess around with the pantheon of Greyhawk too much...
I like some things just the way they are...
Thanks, more input is always nice if anyone else can contribute.
One point to keep in mind, and which Rasgon first alluded to, is that the Baklunish pantheon was never fully fleshed out, and that other deities were to appear in later products (which of course were never published). It seems the main emphasis early on was putting out material for the aspects of the campaign world that had been mostly developed. There was not much developed for the Baklunish at the time and so they got shafted a bit.
So, I myself would have little problem with somebody creating a few more gods for the Baklunish, as it was intended in the fist place. Others are working on the background info on the Baklunish states as well. Ephealy has unleashed his wild hair on the coastal Baklunish regions, Mortellan is a long time Ull fanatic (maybe due to being ogre blooded- the DNA tests are still out on that one), and some of the Living Greyhawk RPGA Triads have put out some interesting info on some of the lands too. There are others who have detailed other aspects of the Baklunish, from gods, to lands, to clothing, etc.
Still, some people seem freaked out about the idea of creating a new deity, usually picking an already named hero or artifact maker and then deifying them instead of creating a new god that very precisely fits the need. As to most of the Greyhawk cultures, I see them worshipping an entire pantheon of gods for the most part, with each person often choosing one of those gods as a personal patron (warriors choose a warrior god as their patron, sages choose a god of knowledge/learning as their patron, etc.).
Slightly unrelated, but I recall that there is an article on “3 Lost Baklunish Gods” of evil that would be great for representing some of the “Powers of Darkness” that the early Baklunish (Azor’ Alq in particular) fought. I have no idea who wrote it or where it came from. If anybody knows the source then please post the author credits.
3 Lost Baklunish Deities
Thalantha al-Hazun (The Unholy Trio, in Ancient Baklunish)
Al' Fazal
(The Tyrant, The Mighty One, Our Terrible Master), LE Intermediate God of Tyranny, Oppression and Slavery.
Al' Fazal is the Baklunish god of evil dominion and control. His adherents seek domination in government, religion and social arenas in a continuing effort to amass power and control. They work to disfranchise and enslave their subordinates - professing that few in society are suited to govern. Fazaltine tenets assert that most creatures must be governed with an iron fist and forced to work for the few elites given the gifts of leadership and strength. The rule by fear and violence. The Tyrant seeks obedience, not love. Domains: Evil, Force, Law and Strength. Weapons: Scimitar, Morning Star.
Kor Ahir
(Hatred's Son, The Black Demon, The Accursed One), CE Intermediate God of Hatred, Misery and Sin.
Kor Ahir is the Baklunish god of hate, malice and sore cursings. He hates everything and everyone. His followers bring discord and strife everywhere they are allowed to abide. The always seek to pull down power around them and spread despair. They murder, rob, cheat and steal because of an insidious emptiness that fills their hearts. It is said that Hatred's Son has taken all meaning and value from his followers. All that is left is spiteful dissenters who want all to be miserable. It is whispered in secret conclaves that Ahir lent his dark hand to the cause of the cataclysms. Domains: Chaos, Evil, Death and Destruction. Weapons: None.
Mindhu
(The Torturer, Black Sister, Daughter of Pain), NE Intermediate Goddess of Anguish, Malign Punishment and Torture.
The Black Sister is the Baklunish Goddess of unjust pain and torture. She is the patron deity of torment of the mind, body and spirit. Her morbid followers are zealous executioners, torturers and other bringers of pain. They delight in depraved twistings, stretchings and mutilations of the body - all in an effort to extract screams of excruciating pain and pleas for relief - which never comes. She is the most feared Baklunish deity. Domains: Trickery, Healing, Madness and Evil. Weapons: Whip, Spiked Chain.
Knowledge of the above powers is not taught among the Bakluni, and their secrets are diligently kept from public discourse. Followers of the Unholy Trio are assiduously hunted down and slain.
Any of the three, or all of them, make for a great patron of an EVIL warrior, but I don’t think they make for a great patron of the average Baklunish warrior. Azor’ Alq is a great hero (hero-deity even), but he really is only something to aspire to rather than worship in my mind; more of a saint than a god. Xan Yae and Zuoken seem more about combat styles that do not relate well to the average Baklunish warriors’ method of fighting, so even they seem a bit odd. Istus and the whole Fate angle is nice for a pantheon head that everyone seeks to pay proper homage too, but she doesn’t fit well as the personal patron of a warrior.
The Baklunish simply needs some more gods. Not quasi-deities, hero-deities, or elevated mortals- full fledged gods that were always there from “the beginning of time”. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Cebrion, I agree. There should be more deities. I've been looking into expanding the pantheon for some time. I can't comment on your post just yet - it needs to rumble around in my empty skull for a while before I can say anything intelligent. When I can, I'll make sure to comment, though.
One deity I've been toying with is Ohlria, The Green Mother. Sister of Geshtai and keeper of the Baklunish woodlands. She is a dormant deity at this time, missing and silent since the Invoked Devastation. I'll post the whole reason / write-up when I compose it more fully. The jist is that she used her divine power to protect a cadre of druids during the ID (The Grace of Ohlria) and is in a kind of divine coma.
Side Note: I know this is a nitpick, but please please please refrain from using apostrophes in words or names. They greatly complicate the linguistics and really serve no purpose. I've been nailing down Ancient Baklunish and have run across a couple apostrophes that have thrown monkey-wrenches into the whole thing. The best I could do was say they are glottal stops. Anyway, please use them very sparingly.
Side Note: I know this is a nitpick, but please please please refrain from using apostrophes in words or names. They greatly complicate the linguistics and really serve no purpose. I've been nailing down Ancient Baklunish and have run across a couple apostrophes that have thrown monkey-wrenches into the whole thing. The best I could do was say they are glottal stops. Anyway, please use them very sparingly.
Those names are not my material. I just reposted the write-up as is so that if anybody knows who wrote it they can Identify the author. So, go get your 100 gp pearls everybody because I'm all out!
I guess using my earth god Sh'aal Shabbahk' Ala' Shihn[shawl-sha-BOK-all-ah-SHEEN] ("Lords of the Sands" for all you ignorant savages who do not speak the "Enlightened Tongue") is out of the question then? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Heh, it's just something that irks me, Ceb. I realized that you weren't author, but thought I'd take the opportunity to sound off on the apostrophe subject anyway :)
As we seem to be posting our personal views on how we like our Gods and what flavors we seem to season them with, I would make the claim that the Baklunish people would be better suited as a monotheistic culture.
In sharp and appropriate contrast to the Suel Imperium, the Bakluni are a people of thought and introspection. They were not provokers of war with the Suel empire; they retaliated. I find it fitting that at least one culture adheres to a monotheistic approach. Their cultures are different enough (as is their general physical appearance) to merit more than just superficial separations. A single god works, IMHO.
I think that Istus fits that position very well. As the Lady of Fate (and Destiny, if such things can be defined separately) she can be worshiped for any of her aspects of those two things. Fate applies equally to War/Peace, Love/Hate, Death/Birth, Luck/Unluck, and any other duality that can be fairly attributed. Al Akbar fits very well as a prophet figure, as well.
In game terms (specifically with an eye towards the 3E Deities and Demigods), I would make Istus a 19 or 20. With a fragmented world view, the other pantheons would have less spiritual energy at their command. There are only so many worshipers from whom to harvest energy. This leads to a large pantheon with lesser powers populating them. To me, this makes sense and lends a nice little touch to what I feel is a realm with to many aspects -- too many gods.
The vast majority of the Baklunish people would be giving their energy to Istus. Xan Yae, Geshtai, Mouqol, and Zouken work better as hero-deities, ancestor worship, or aspects of the Lady (or something along those lines).
Of course, this is just my take on the whole thing, YMMV, etc, etc...
Long ago on Greytalk I had brought this very discussion up, and listed a "completed" pantheon for the Bakluni. For war, there were two gods - Amun, God of the Sun and Righteous Battle, and Ishanna, Goddess of Love and War. I never quite fully fleshed them out, but Amun was based largely on Enkili and Ishanna on Inana, both from the old Deities & Demigods Babylonian pantheon. The full pantheon was based on canon, Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian and the al'Qadim pantheons. If I can ever find the orignal notes, I could post them up again, if you're interested... _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I have a copy of your notes, Gargoyle. They were something like this, yes?
Quote:
Aman-tu, Greater God of the Day, the Sun, and Physical Skill, N/G
Azor'alq, Hero-Deity of light, purity, courage, strength, N/G
Enra, Intermediate God of Fire, Magic, Artifice, and Intellect, N/N
Geshtai, Lesser Goddess of Fertility, N/N
Innan, Intermediate Goddess of Love and War, C/N
Istus, Greater Goddess of Fate, N/N
Kali, Intermediate Goddess of Life and Death, C/E
Methys, Intermediate Goddess of Beauty, Wealth, and Indulgence, C/N
Mouqol, Intermediate God of Merchants, Trade, Intrigue, N/N
Nunki, Lesser Goddess of Animals, Nature, and Fertility, C/N(G)
Qah, Intermediate God of Knowledge, Arts, Skill, Craftsmanship, and Creation, L/N
Uhuris, Lesser God of Toil, Sufferance, and Perseverance, L/N(E)
Varuna, Lesser God of Cosmic Order, Balance, and Dharma, L/N
Xan Yae, Lesser Goddess of Shadows, Perfection, N/N
Zuz, Intermediate God of Death, the Night, the Moon, and Judgement, L/N
Zuoken, Demigod of Psionics, Monks, N/N
Yes, thank you rasgon! I remember Zuz was originally Xux Min, but I think I amended that when I posted all those years ago... As can be seen (and I now remember) I also used some of the Hindu myths, and just added in Kali and Varuna unchanged. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
(1) As devotees of Istus, the Baklunish could couch their warmaking in terms of "fate."...
-The Arabic is "In sha' Allah" (in God's Hands), sort of like "Que Sera Sera"; that would work for some warriors;
ephealy wrote:
(2) Hero worship is an established institution in Baklunish religious culture. When war comes, the Bakkies could look to their ancestors for inspiration. Azor'alq and others could fill this role nicely...
-And Al Akabar...
ephealy wrote:
I guess I need to do my homework before writing in the forums. There is no "War god" per se, but three of the Baklunish deities have the war domain: Azor'alq, Xan Yae, and Zuoken.
-Them too.
ephealy wrote:
... I know this is a nitpick, but please please please refrain from using apostrophes in words or names...The best I could do was say they are glottal stops. Anyway, please use them very sparingly.
-Whenever I've seen apostophes used "In The Real World", they're glottal stops (hamzas, in Arabic); a glottal stop is sort of like the "glug glug" in a Spike Jones song.
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