I've just not entirly grasped what they are all about. As (mostly) Chaotic Neutral oustiders, they should be all about spreading CN goodness all over existance. But when I think about spreading Chaos, what comes to mind is the destruction of order and structure in all things and all that upheaval and whatnot seams more like a Demonic thing.
Now I've got Devils, Eldrans, Inevitables and all the other planar races pretty much down pat, but I've yet to get a significant grasp on the ways and whys of the Slaad.
Seems you are confusing Chaos with Evil. Demons do not sow Chaos because they are Chaotic Evil. The alignment is more about their personal disposition. Chaotic Evil is a "me, myself, and I" kind of view of the world. Demons have no set hierarchy, no rules. It is "might makes right" all of the time. This is different from devils that have a strict hierarchy, and even though they might use might to make right, they know that if they step beyond their place then ALL of the other devils will smack them down. Devils are about a pecking order within a system, demons, are all about an unrestrained application of power. Just clearing that up, the Chaos-Evil thing that is.
Slaad and the Slaad lords are about spreading chaos anywhere and everywhere. They'll spread it wherever the do not find it, and also where they do(even MORE chaos!!! ). Slaad do not exist to spread evil or good, as neither is really important to them, though the disruption they tend to leave in their wake is not viewed as a good thing, and can often cause bad things to happen. For instance, if a Slaad could create a hurricane it would do it "just because". The slaad is not concerned with whether or no that hurricane will wipe out a town of innocents or wipe out an evil temple. The mayhem is what is important to the Slaad, as mayhem is fun!!!
Think of it this way. When you were a kid, did you ever make a mess or destroy something "just because"? And when you were caught by your parents and they asked why you did it, you know the answer you would have given, yes? Of course you do, and we all know because the answer to the question "Why did you DO this?" is "I don't know..." So, there you have the Slaad. They are always doing this type of stuff, and mostly "just because", but unlike a child they do know why they do it- it is their nature to do such things.
Slaad are the really powerful gremlins of the outer planes basically. They can be vindictive, practical jokers, or just apathetic. All that matters to them is that Chaos is sown. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Slaad are the really powerful gremlins of the outer planes basically. They can be vindictive, practical jokers, or just apathetic. All that matters to them is that Chaos is sown.
Ahhhhhhh......
Thanks! The Slaad always kinda came off as 'Demons without the evil subtype' to me before, but I really like that 'Gremlins of the Outer Planes' description. In fact, I'm suddenly remembering random bits from Gremlins 2, so I guess they are like that, only less malicious.
Remember that many slaadi are capable of taking on humanoid form, the better to infiltrate mortal societies. And they're intelligent creatures, too. They don't have to just be ravenous, carnivorous toads.
They exist to undermine order and promote chaos, yes, but that doesn't just mean eating people and breaking stuff. It means working with freedom-fighters (and even eladrins, holy warriors of Trithereon and so on) to overthrow tyrants and warlords, and of course more benign forms of law as well. They can be found undercover among Ivid's Fiend-Knights or the Knights of Holy Shielding, stringing the patsies along until a group of compromising notes ends up in exactly the wrong hands to humiliate and discredit the entire order. They seek to make the powerful weaker and the weaker more powerful; they seek to bring the whole idea of laws into question, to make all rules seem ridiculous in the the eyes of the common people. They encourage rules to outlaw common things like alcohol or venison in order to make everyone into criminals - they encourage paragons of order to break their own laws and then expose their own hypocrisy.
Yes, they don't understand morality - they're just as likely to cause civil war in Nyrond as they are to sow discord in the upper ranks of the Scarlet Brotherhood. They don't think about whether people are going to die, or where they're going to get food or medicine if they destroy a trade route or drive all the traders out of business or outlaw wheels. Since all chaos is the same to them, they're as likely to ally themselves with Iuz as Celene, or to aid both at once. They like war but they're as quick to see that unexpected peace can undermine a warlord's authority. A slaad might decide to eat a random stranger, or lay an egg in it, or infect it to turn it into another slaad, but it's just as likely to shower it with gifts or aid it in combat against another foe if it thinks that might be more entertaining, more confusing, more infuriating, or might support the cause of Chaos in some way. It might even openly aid lawful characters, especially if doing so will make lawful characters look bad. Imagine a slaad following around a paladin in full slavering, pointy-toothed frogmonster form, yelling enthusiastic things like, "Do you want me to eat this peasant woman, master? She looks much tastier than the last one," fleeing/planeshifting when the paladin tries to fight it only to return later on to humiliate the paladin some more.
A demon, chaotic and wild as it is, is somewhat predictable - you know it hates you and if it toys with you, it's only a prelude to devouring your soul. With a slaad, it might hate you or love you, but you won't be able to guess which from the way it acts. It will toy with you, tease you, taunt you perhaps, and it might very well hurt you, but you might come out better off from the experience, too.
There are four known slaad lords. There's Ygorl, who's mainly about entropy; his servants seek to encourage things to rot, ordered systems to break down, and energy to dim. They hope to encourage magic to fade, the sun to die, for roads and buildings to turn into rubble, for civil institutions to collapse. They might seem the most outright evil of slaadi, but that's just human prejudice - entropy is a natural process, after all. They don't seek needless suffering; they just want things to be simpler, darker, slower.
There's Ssendam, who's about madness. Its servants provoke insanity and mental illness; they free mental patients and dance with them on the streets, they use magic to break other peoples' minds and sanity, they ally themselves with creatures who can do the same. The devotees of Ssendam are the most the most outright crazy of slaadi, and they'll commonly have a host of psychopathologies of their own, cultivating paranoia and neurotic habits. They can be the most frightening and the most bewildering of slaadi.
There's Rennbuu, the lord of colors. Rennbuu's a lesser lord of chaos because his tastes are very specific: he just wants to make things more colorful in a very literal sense. All slaadi fear him because he can change their power level at will, turning a gray slaad into a green slaad or a blue slaad into a death slaad. He's an artistic type, though, and his servants are artists, fond of decorating things with graffiti, turning grim blank walls into things of beauty and defacing things that are already artistic with crude splotches. Mostly harmless and very random, as slaadi go, though their tastes can turn malicious as easily as anyone else, drowning those they dislike in paint, poisoning wells with pigments (why wouldn't mortals want to drink such a lovely shade of blue?), or using graffiti to create anti-state propaganda.
There's Chourst, lord of randomness, who seeks to undermine patterns and regularity, to force others to do the unexpected, who promotes non sequiturs and interruptions. Slaadi of Chourst are the sorts to transport a sailing ship into the middle of a desert or the top of a mountain, or to bring a maddened red dragon into the middle of a city just to see what happens, or to brave their way to Iuz's throne room just to give him a kiss and perform a juggling act, or to trick King Belvor into thinking a pair of bewildered kobolds are the ambassadors from the Yeomanry. They decide even the simplest actions with a flip of a coin or a roll of the dice - "On a 1, I attack this adventurer for one round; on a 2, I senselessly attack my companion; on a 3, I give the adventurer this potion of healing; on a 4, I drink the potion myself so that I don't die..."
There's also Sorel, would-be lord of anarchy, who is a powerful death slaad but not yet a full-fledged Lord of Chaos. Sorel is Ygorl's protege, and of course seeks to specifically target governments of all sorts, undermining them, fermenting revolution and uprisings. Ygorl sees this as an aspect of entropy, but Sorel doesn't really care about keeping anarchists from forming new governments - Sorel would be happy to see governments rise and fall again without end, while Ygorl would prefer to just see them fall and not get up again.
Hmm. The more I hear about the Slaad, the more I like 'em. I really like how they can give off a 'Oh Gods, what are they going to do this time?' vibe.
Off the nine alignments, Chaotic Neutral is the one I've always had the most difficulty wrapping my head around, but I think I'm starting to get it now.
Here's a question: Do mortals worship the Slaad lords, a-la the Demon Princes and the Infernal Lords? And do they get spells in return?
Well, lets play 'Give the Slaad lords domains!' then!
Each Lord gets the Chaos domain automaticly, and then two others.
Okay, first off: Ygorl. Now, I considered giving him the Entroy domain from Fiendish Codex I, but a after a quick check of it's spells and ability, I felt that it was a bit too evil for a neutral entity. Then I remembered the Decay domain from the Eberron Campaign Setting, and that is much more neutral. For the final slot, I was stuck between Death and Destruction, but in the end I went for Death, as Destruction seamed a bit too flashy for a being dedicated to entropy.
Now Ssendam. Now the Madness domain from Complete Divine was a must for this guy. Also, I'm thinking that Trickery would also be something he would be into, so I'll make that the third domain.
Rennbuu. I think the Creation domain (again, from Complete Divine) suits him. And also Destruction too. Hey, you've gotta destroy to create! And create to destroy!
Chourst. Luck and Trickery. Hmm. Doesn't that make his domains identical to Olidammra's? Okay, loose Trickey, and replace with....with.....I'll think of something in a minute......
Sorel. Would this guy be in a possition to be worshipped and grant spells right now? If so, I think Evil and War would make good choices for him.
So, to recap:
Chourst: Chaos, Luck [Third domain to be included as soon as I think of it]
Remember CN doesn't always mean randomness; CN may desire to be free to pursure ideas that present themselves, CN also are very steadfast to their goals and values, they simply use a round about way to achieve it, unless they get distracted by a better option.
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For the Slaad the ultimate goal is to seek to change the established order of the lower planes in order to bring themselves to power.
Since Tanar'ri (CE Demons) use naked force and the Baatezu (LE Devils) use organisation to advance evil, while the Yugoloths (NE) prosper as are the despicable mercenaries of the Blood War between the Tanar'ri and Baatezu. The Slaad are at the bottom of the power structure and since the Tanar'ri, Baatezu and Yugoloths would see any concerted action by the Slaad as a threat, perhaps "randomness" is seen as harmless until to late after all they are advancing evil?
Tanar'ri want to force everyone into submission
Baatezu want to gather enough strength to overthrow the Tanar'ri
Yugoloths want the stalemate to continue
Slaad simply want to spread enough chaos to overthrow everything so when order is restored hopefully they aren't the lower plane "whipping boy" anymore.
Last edited by Crag on Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
For the Slaad the ultimate goal is to seek to change the established order of the lower planes in order to bring themselves to power.
The lower planes? Pfft. They care about the lower planes exactly as much as they care about the upper planes. They're only at the "bottom of the power structure" insofar as they (as a race) have little interest in achieving power in the realms of evil, so far from the chaotic realms that they favor.
I couldn't disagree with you more; the slaadi aren't the "whipping boys" of the fiends - they exist in an entirely different ecology, contending with the githzerai, lillends, titans, Limbo stalkers, chaos beasts, jotuns, and other chaotic races. The forces of Evil shouldn't enter into it most of the time - although the Hellbound boxed set suggests that slaadi behave more like good-aligned creatures when they're on the lower planes and more like evil-aligned creatures when they're on the upper planes, for the sake of balance.
Slaadi might be the "whipping boys" of the demons when they're in the Abyss, but no more so than the demons are the whipping boys of the slaadi when they're in Limbo.
I agree with you about randomness - there are many ways to be chaotic neutral, and randomness is just one of the flavors of Chaos.
For a slaad flavored adventure, pick up a copy of the 2e adventure compilation "Tales of the Outer Planes". There is one adventure in there that involves fixing a "little" problem caused by just the mere presence of a slaad lord in the wrong place. You can find a pdf of it here:
rasgon, what's the canon source for Rennbuu and Chourst? I'm unfamiliar with those entities
They were first described and statted in Dragon #221, in article called "The Lords of Chaos" by Ed Bonny. They were also mentioned in On Hallowed Ground.
Rasgon the quote is from Savant Iquander (Erik Mona).
Personally I kinda like the Slaad have an ultimate goal and instead of sheer randomness, it could be argued the slaad are use Hamlet's ruse to "fly under the radar" as it were, I also dislike how CN becomes insanity in many games.
Just because someone views their own personal freedoms before law, and has no strong moral code but does what is best at the time makes someone the archetype pragmatist not insane.
Rasgon the quote is from Savant Iquander (Erik Mona).
I'm not impressed with it. Claiming the ultimate goal of the slaadi is to rule the Lower Planes is like saying the ultimate goal of Anthraxus is to rule Limbo; maybe that's something he'd like to do somewhere along the line, if the opportunity comes up, but it's not his primary target by any means. It's too alien to his nature.
Having the slaadi focus on ruling the Lower Planes makes them out to be "fiends without the evil subtype," which I think does a great disservice both to slaadi and to the chaotic neutral alignment. It implies that CN is nothing more than a watered down CE, and that CN characters will necessarily lean more toward evil than good. If that isn't true for mortal CN characters, it shouldn't be true for the extraplanar beings who personify their alignment either.
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I also dislike how CN becomes insanity in many games.
Chaotic neutral doesn't have to be insanity, even in the case of slaadi. But one of their rulers is the Lord of Insanity, so madness is certainly going to be something associated with that race on occasion.
Frankly, I'm not sure how a race of innately chaotic beings could even have a 'goal', much less one that seems as inappropriate as that one. Who is going to decide on that goal? Who's going to make sure slaadi are actually working towards it? Why are slaadi any more likely to have a racial goal than humans or elves are?
Why are slaadi any more likely to have a racial goal than humans or elves are?
While I don't disagree with you on general principle, that last question is rather spurious. Humans and elves are "primes," and as such are generally free to choose their own destinies. Slaadi are "outsiders," tied to an alignment plane, and thus are physical manifestations of the forces of Chaos. It's the same basic distinction as between a lawful evil orc and a LAWFUL EVIL devil.
If slaadi have a racial goal, I'd suggest it's to oppose (or even eliminate) the forces of law and order. Their ultimate goal would be to break/corrode/subsume/dissolve the gears of the clockwork universe opposite them.
Who ensures they work toward this goal? Well, nobody, and many or most of them are busy doing other things. Baby steps, after all, and oo! Shiny distractions! But it's part of their nature to desire it, and pretty much anything they do weakens order (and therefore its associated outer planes) to some extent.
As others have posted, if the slaad have anything resembling a goal or purpose, it would be to disrupt/destroy/oppose order wherever they may find it. They are the counterbalance to the modrons, who exist to maintain/preserve/promote order. However, as beings of chaos, they do not pursue it as single mindedly as lawful creatures do. Rather than pursuing it as a goal, I believe they promote chaos when they see the opportunity, or when they are forced to by the sickening (to them) presence of order.
As for the Chaotic Neutral Alignment, I see it as the "do what you feel like, when you feel like" alignment. While chaotic individuals dislike rules, a chaotic neutral person might "play lawful" for a short time (probably about as long as one could endure it) just to see what it's like, or because he/she/it has never tried it before. For slaadi, playing lawful might just be a thing to do while they prepare to disrupt some order. They have long lives just like the other outer planar beings, and therefore can afford to be patient while they try to find a way to create more chaos than they'd make by just rushing in willy nilly. (They're chaotic, not stupid.)
Chaotic doesn't need to be chaotic all the time. After all, if it was constant, that wouldn't be chaotic now, would it?
Hmmm, yes, if you take promotion of chaos/breakdown of order as a goal, then certainly they have one. It is, after all, their very nature to embody chaos, as mentioned by other posters. They don't need to adopt that as a goal. That just seems to me sort of the equivalent of saying the human racial goal is "to be fruitful and multiply". :P
Anyway, I don't think we are actually disagreeing on any point here, just quibbling about word choice.
The PCs ran afoul of slaadi passing themselves off as gods to the dark stalkers living under the Hollow Highlands. The slaadi -- or more specifically, the slaadi being led by one ambitious grey slaad -- were after the Chaos Stone, a magic item that gave complete control over Limbo in a limited radius to the wielder, and use it to open gates to Oerth large enough for an invading army to loot, pillage, and subjugate the Great Kingdom. The PCs tracked the Chaos Stone to the Slaadweave, an area of structure within Limbo, and bested the overconfident grey slaad. Afterward, Ssendam itself appeared, took the Chaos Stone, and simply left with it -- uninterested in the whole invading-Oerth scheme.
That whole portion of the campaign was a toned-down version of modules D1-3 and Q1, with dark stalkers replacing drow and slaadi replacing demons.
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). Slaad do not exist to spread evil or good, as neither is really important to them, though the disruption they tend to leave in their wake is not viewed as a good thing, and can often cause bad things to happen. For instance, if a Slaad could create a hurricane it would do it "just because". The slaad is not concerned with whether or no that hurricane will wipe out a town of innocents or wipe out an evil temple. The mayhem is what is important to the Slaad, as mayhem is fun!!! 
I really like how they can give off a 'Oh Gods, what are they going to do 
