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    Canonfire :: View topic - An introduction to Greyhawk Gods...
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    An introduction to Greyhawk Gods...
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
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    From: Ballarat, Australia

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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:40 pm  
    An introduction to Greyhawk Gods...

    Just a query - I'm thinking about writing an introductory primer to the Greyhawk gods.

    Who would you include?

    (Iuz, yes, is a given).

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:11 pm  

    What sort of information are you thinking about including on the gods? Plan to post it here or do something else with it? Is this your project or a collaboration of people to crank out something big?
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:17 pm  

    This is a potential article written by myself alone for Canonfire.

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:06 pm  

    I would go through the Dragon magazines and avoid the deities which received full write up there. After that, I would turn to Complete Divine and cover the gods they added in there about 24 or so. Depending upon the length of each entry one might want to reduce the number of gods and save some for a follow up article. The more detailed each is the more useful it would be (at least to me). Maybe update the domains as well considering all of the sourcebooks that are available.

    If you want a specific request......please include Istus, other favorites of mine include Ehlonna, Trithereon and Tharizdun.

    Looking forward to the article.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:48 am  

    Is this article going to be for people that are new to Greyhawk?

    If so, I would focus on those which have had an impact on the world, like Tharizdun, Luz or Vecna.

    Just how much detail are you going to go into each one? If it's a detailed look at each then I would go for those what were not included in the Players Handbook, although it may be worth expanding on their one paragraph line up.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:11 am  

    Which ones would I include? Why, all of them, of course!
    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:07 am  

    You could fill volumes with the deities I haven't used in my gaming. For a beginner's primer you have to start with the obvious I think, the Core D&D deities. This is purely to reach the most of your audience which is those who use up to date editions. Then from there you hit the popular gods, ones that are uniquely special to the continuity of GH. Those Wizards were stupid to overlook and got token mention in Dragon or other splat books. Like Pholtus, Zagyg, Obad Hai, Trithereon, etc.

    Another way of tackling it would be by pantheon. It could get sticky then if you do the common gods however.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:03 pm  

    Might be hard to do Trithereon and use the Core Deities at the same time, since they gave Trithereon's portfolio to St. Cuthbert in the PHB....

    As for which ones you do, I guess it depends on whether you are looking at giving information to prospective players about gods they might have their character worship.. in which case you can give short shrift to gods like Xerbo, Cyndor, Merikka, and others with little adventuring purpose. If you are looking more at a campaign primer, I think you should do all of the ones '87 glossography :P
    Novice

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:08 pm  

    How many were you thinking about using? My suggestions (to those already mentioned...) St Cuthbert (btw Tritherion's portfolio? what do you mean?), Heironeous, Rao, Pholtus, Boccob, Pelor, probably Lolth, Zagyg...

    Hmm... I could keep going for a while. Plus there's the whole Suel and Baklunish pantheons to play with... Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:08 pm  

    Merric B
    Give us a better idea of what your intentions are with the article. Everyone has their favorites for various reasons. How long do you want the article to be? How long would each entry be? Is it for beginners or everyone? Are the entries basic or comprehensive? Are you thinking about using a format similar to what Dragon Magazine used or do you want to go with less detail? What are the highlights you want to include in each entry?

    Once we have an idea of what your thinking I expect it will be easier to make sound decisions and offer advice or direction.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:34 pm  

    Didn't DMPrata already do a PDF inventory of the GH Gods?

    It is confusing, Merric B do you want a simple list, a couple of paragraphs...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:31 pm  

    Go and find my "Short Introduction to the World of Greyhawk" article on the site; that should give you an idea as to length and scope. Not more than a paragraph or two per god; not more than 15 gods covered, and possibly quite a few less. I'm not writing a comprehensive guide to every god!

    This is something that you'd give to a new player in Greyhawk: it will (hopefully) summarise the important gods (to adventurers) and what they mean in a standard campaign. Well, one of my campaigns, but the information will probably apply to your campaigns as well. Part of the key is to hit the highlights without overwhelming the player.

    Cheers,
    Merric
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    Merric Blackman
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:37 pm  

    Rao, Pholtus, Istus, St. Cuthbert, Olidammara, Boccob, Ulaa, Ehlonna, Trithereon, Ralishaz, Heironeous, Hextor, Kord, Iuz, Fharlanghn.

    That seems good for now. That's most of the classic deities described in Greyhawk Adventures, plus a few that have big places in later canon, minus the ones too evil for most PCs to worship (Hextor gets a mention as patron of the Great Kingdom and Heironeous' nemesis, and Iuz of course because he's also a country). The others can be mysterious/hidden/foreign/obscure.
    Novice

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    Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:24 am  

    I really would like to see a little more info on Beory. Heavily worshipped by commoners it seems but very little info for PCs to go with.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:20 am  

    SirEbon wrote:
    St Cuthbert (btw Tritherion's portfolio? what do you mean?)


    In GH specific material, St. Cuthbert is the god of common sense, zeal, wisdom, and honesty etc and Trithereon is the god of retribution, liberty, and freedom. In the PHB (and, afaik, the latest D&DG) there is no mention of Trithereon and St. Cuthbert is described as the god of retribution. Obviously, a Trithereon focused on liberty and freedom is still possible, but retribution is a major part of most of his existing development.....

    Mind you, I'm not advocating using the "Core Deities" changes to the gods (there are others), but since it was mentioned above I thought I'd point that out.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:40 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Rao, Pholtus, Istus, St. Cuthbert, Olidammara, Boccob, Ulaa, Ehlonna, Trithereon, Ralishaz, Heironeous, Hextor, Kord, Iuz, Fharlanghn.

    Id agree with those, plus Pelor, Nerull and Beory
    Id take things back to the roots of the 83 boxed set... where vecna is dead and buried and tharizdun is locked away and (more or less) harmless.....
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:12 pm  
    (Raises fist into the air) Hail Kord!

    C'mon, why no love for Kord-god of brawlers, wrestling, & all around a**kicking! It may seem lame but the past year of Dragon Mag had various other Greyhawk gods-but no Kord? That made me upset!
    So anyway-make sure you include Kord! Happy
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:00 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Rao, Pholtus, Istus, St. Cuthbert, Olidammara, Boccob, Ulaa, Ehlonna, Trithereon, Ralishaz, Heironeous, Hextor, Kord, Iuz, Fharlanghn.


    Nice list.

    Just at the moment, I'm tending towards...

    Pholtus
    Pelor
    Nerull
    St Cuthbert
    Olidammara
    Boccob
    Ulaa
    Ehlonna
    Heironeous
    Hextor
    St Cuthbert
    Iuz
    Fharlanghan
    Kord
    Old Faith (Beory)

    I'm not quite sure if I'll include Trithereon, Istus and Xan-Yae, all of which have been important to my campaigns in the past. Rao is unlikely to be included due to my dislike of the deity.

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:57 pm  
    Re: (Raises fist into the air) Hail Kord!

    Mouse wrote:
    C'mon, why no love for Kord-god of brawlers, wrestling, & all around a**kicking! It may seem lame but the past year of Dragon Mag had various other Greyhawk gods-but no Kord? That made me upset!
    So anyway-make sure you include Kord! Happy


    I agree but i was verry disapointed that they did nothing for Moradin, one of the oldest.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:15 am  

    One of the oldest what? He wasn't originally part of the Greyhawk campaign. Ulaa and some others were the dwarf gods in the early years. There is an argument to be made that since GH was the only published campaign world at the time (not counting Tekumel, which was published first but not really as a standard D&D realm), all the demi human gods from Dieties and Demi gods are part of Greyhawk. I don't particularly buy that, since its not really any more valid than saying all the other pantheons are part of GH, too.

    The demi human pantheons have certainly been retconned into GH.. and pretty early on. But I don't see how you can say Moradin is 'one of the oldest', at least in relation to Greyhawk.

    I can't remember if Moradin and the rest were in Gods, Demigods, and Heroes or not.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:05 pm  

    Although I've written about Yondalla in Ulek, these days I much prefer to simplify the gods as much as possible. 100+ gods just doesn't interest me.

    IMC, I'm moving more towards Ehlonna being the goddess of Elves, Halflings and Gnomes(?), and Ulaa of Dwarves (and Gnomes?)

    Orcs? There's a reason we have demons and Iuz. :)

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:22 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The demi human pantheons have certainly been retconned into GH.. and pretty early on. But I don't see how you can say Moradin is 'one of the oldest', at least in relation to Greyhawk.

    I can't remember if Moradin and the rest were in Gods, Demigods, and Heroes or not.


    They were in Deities & Demigods, which makes them older than most specifically Greyhawk gods. The nonhuman faiths from that book were placed on Oerth by Gary Gygax in Dragon #64, the same issue where Raxivort was first introduced. Heironeous, Hextor, Ehlonna, and so on didn't appear in Dragon until later. So in relation to published Greyhawk, Corellon, Lolth, Raxivort, Skerrit, Vaprak, and Skoraeus Strongbones are "older" than Trithereon, Erythnul, Boccob, or Istus.

    "The pantheon of deities in the Flanaess is very broad, and many humanoids and demi-humans serve deities which do not have an aspect that exactly matches the race in question, be it dwarven, elven, orcish or whatever. However, for communities of demi-humans or humanoids outside human areas of settlement, or for large enclaves therein, some racial deities are needed. For such, you should feel comfortable employing the “Nonhumans’ Deities” section of the DEITIES & DEMIGODS™
    Cyclopedia..."

    Naturally, I'm not saying Merric or anyone else should feel obligated to take Gygax's advice in this regard. I see the appeal of a simpler pantheon, though I prefer more complex ones myself.

    Roger Moore's expanded demihuman pantheons are older than the specifically Greyhawk gods in relation to the published game as a whole, but Gygax didn't recommend them in Dragon #64.

    Ulaa should certainly be patron of both dwarves and gnomes, although gnomes are also "especially attuned" to Ehlonna. Dwarves prefer Obad-hai to Ehlonna (Obad-hai occasionally even manifests in dwarf form, as well as that of a gnome or a halfling). Halflings revere both Ulaa and Ehlonna.

    So that's:

    Elves: Ehlonna
    Dwarves: Ulaa and Obad-hai
    Gnomes: Ulaa, Obad-hai and Ehlonna
    Halflings: Ehlonna, Obad-hai, and Ulaa

    Of course, if you've got an extremely simplified pantheon, there's no need for "racial deities" at all. It's one thing to say that Ehlonna belongs both to the human and elven pantheons, but if there's only one pantheon available, elves are going to worship whoever they please - they'll worship Heironeous as their god of war, remembering his ancient battles with Hextor and Lolth. They'll worship Pelor as their god of the sun, Ehlonna as their goddess of forests, Fharlanghn as their god of travel, and Boccob as their god of magic. I don't think they'd think Ehlonna was more important than any of the others - they love their forests, but the woods are only one aspect of life.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:21 am  

    Many such articles have been written. This is your article. Write it how you want to. People will enjoy it, or not, but that is irrelevant so long as you enjoy it.
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    Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:02 pm  

    Actually, I would think that Phaulkon would probably be the elvish "god of war" if you are going with a very simplified pantheon. Though there are references to elven Heironeous worshippers somewhere (I think it was a discussion of the rare elven paladins or something).

    Anyway, I knew the non human gods got a nod in Dragon, though I misremembered and thought it was Moore's article rather than D&DG that did so. I don't think they showed up in anything published under the GH logo until much later, though. There is no denying they are official by any standard, but I wouldn't pick them for a list of iconic GH dieties.

    Cebrion's right, of course. The best way to write the article is to write about the gods the author likes. Writing about a god you find boring or uninteresting is not likely to result in great inspiration.
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    Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:41 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Cebrion's right, of course. The best way to write the article is to write about the gods the author likes. Writing about a god you find boring or uninteresting is not likely to result in great inspiration.


    Absolutely. However, I asked about this here for a reason: for people to remind me about gods I may have forgotten, and to examine the reasons I might or might not talk about each god. You've been very helpful in that regard!

    It'll likely be non-canonical in the end (as are most of my articles; I write about *my* Greyhawk, and it's seen many deviations from standard lore, as befits a living campaign), but I doubt that it'll be useless to others, either!

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:17 pm  

    DMPrata's Greyhawk Deitybase is pretty much all-inclusive, and(if I remember correctly) the sources are footnoted so you can pick and choose what to include or not. Do a Google serch for "World Greyhawk Deitybase" and it will pull up the pdf link.
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    Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:50 am  

    A couple of things:

    1) Even if you only use the gods listed in the 83 Greyhawk boxed set, you have many more that you'll ever use, let alone need. That's why I don't bother with the ones from D&DG. Enough is enough.

    2) I would start with the gods that are most common and most important in the region you are discussing. If you are talking about the Spindrifts of Barbarian Kingdoms, you'd want to stick to the Suloise gods. In the West, the Baklunish. In the Furyondy/Veluna/Iuz/Horned Society region, you might want stick to the deities from that region.
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