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    Canonfire :: View topic - Dungeon 151 Lost Caverns Ch. 1 Published
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    Dungeon 151 Lost Caverns Ch. 1 Published
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 12, 2007 11:27 pm  
    Dungeon 151 Lost Caverns Ch. 1 Published

    Iggwilv's Legacy: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth can be found here (DI login required):
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/duad/20071012

    by Ari Marmell
    art by Howard Lyon and Francis Tsai
    cartography by Rob Lazzaretti

    I haven't had a chance to read it but I have downloaded it and will try to get some time this weekend

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    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:16 am  

    Good find!

    After a brief read of the background fluff I see that this adventure has been well researched for Greyhawk canon as it covers most of the bases of Iggwilv and Graz'zt's history. It even takes into account recent Iggwilv lore written by Holian which was nice.
    Where it takes the biggest leap is on the new and quite explicit background of the mystery man Tsojcanth. I'll let the rest of you catch up on that part before I spoil it, but right now I have to say I like this take on Tsojcanth as it doesn't conflict with canon AFAIK. What little we knew about him before makes no difference because this adventure assumes his mortal history was but a ruse.
    The rest of it on a skim looks like a good random hunt in/around Iggwilv's Horn, reminiscent of the original Lost Caverns mod. There's a nice map of the local mountains and the mod uses a Taint system from UA. Oh yeah, it looks like the cult of Tharizdun factors into this plot. Surprise. :P
    Looks good, part 2 has me intrigued already with the picture at the end.
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:38 am  

    It's a surprisingly solid adventure in terms of Greyhawk lore, satisfyingly filling one of the holes in the Graz'zt-Iggwilv saga (What was the nature of Iggwilv's disastrous experiment?). And is that Drelzna on the cover?

    I really like the random weather and odd effects tables. The adventure itself leans heavily on Heroes of Horror, but uses the material well. I see a small error in the bibliography - Fraz-Urb'luu is not, in fact, described in the Book of Vile Darkness.

    It even fits pretty well with my version of Tsojcanth, including even my mention of a "rift at the heart of reality." I wonder if the author read it?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:57 am  

    For my part, I found this adventure very meh. I didn't think the Greyhawk information was much other than prefunctory, given who we are speaking of and where (Iggy's HQ). The adventure itself left me feeling meh, as well. And the layout was really really nothing special to me. Hopefully, this adventure will pick up steam as it goes along. Of note, if it were not free, there is no way Iwould pay for this sort of effort.

    YMMV, of course. Smile
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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:42 am  

    From what I've seen so far, this is very good and I'm looking forward to the next chapter. S4 has always been my all-time favorite module and I was prepared for the worst, so its a nice surprise that it didn't disappoint me (yet!) The background does a nice job of pulling all the bits of story together, except for one thing:

    SPOILER ALERT!

    Why do writers have to resort to the half-fiend backstory by default? Iuz was first, which was fine and made sense in the context of Iggwilv's history. Then came Acererak, and now Tsojcanth. Sorry, this just comes across as laziness on the writer's part.

    Other than that, this is definately worth checking out. With the exception to Maure Castle, this is one of the better revised classics.

    Trevor
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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:31 pm  

    While I am more enthusiastic over the lore like rasgon I am with GVD on the fact that this was tempered by it being a free product. I might add though that this article was most likely slated to run under the paizo administration which for its own faults -was- Greyhawk friendly. We may not see articles with GH content of even THIS caliber in the near future from WotC if their initial 4E articles are any indication.
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    Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:48 pm  

    Just read this thing. Enjoyed it but I can't make a decision until I see what they do with the rest of S4. As for what we can expect in the future for Greyhawk, I'm guessing odd things here and there as they attempt to hook us into 4th edition and then keep us there.

    I'm most worried about Maure Castle. I was enjoying the idea of more levels at some point, but now they'll do any new levels (if at all) in 4th edition. I don't know about you guys, but having played 1st to 3.5 I'm getting tired of new editions which mean conversions for my old stuff. I'm not a magic player and I wish Wizard's would stop trying to treat me as one.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:37 pm  

    Well, I have to say that this is more of a head nod than I expected to Greyhawk, by a long shot. I have not read it in detail as time has not allowed, but from what I veiwed, it was far more than expected. The simple inclusion of Tsjocanth as an Oerdian?!?!?!? Wow... not a fighter of ancient valor in the presitge flavor of the month!

    It may not be enough for some, but I have to say that this is the stuff that will lure me in. Give me more. I agree with all the reticience, and fear... it is justified given the past of WOTC. However, IMO this is far beyond many previous efforts to appease us.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:41 pm  

    I'm not too keen on the tainted area warping the Gnome Vale (Thumbvale) and surrounding areas, plus the half-fiend angle is soooo overdone at this point. Other than that I found it a decent enough read, but nothing new is really offered, and quite few things get a wrench thrown into them. I'd prefer a simple re-publish of the old adventures rather than a "Return to" or "Expedition to" format, where past information is altered to fit the current project. Such material does not target a new audience at all, and is totally geared towards the old codgers who actually have heard of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Nostalgia will not be enough to carry the story, so the authors better have something else up their sleeves.

    I only see one major problem, that being that rather than get an actual adventure in an issue of e-Dungeon(if this even is an indicator of what the content will be), there is only "Chapter 1". Perhaps this is just part 1 of a 6-part adventure path. Two adventures per year! WOOHOO!!! Laughing

    If this is the e-Dungeon format, then I'll surely be passing on it and the estimated $10 monthly fee, irregardless of what Greyhawk content each issue may or may not include.
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:29 am  
    A Good Tsojcanth is Better

    Cebrion wrote:
    ... plus the half-fiend angle is soooo overdone at this point.

    Yeah, I agree with Brian on this point. I like the idea of Tsojcanth having been a champion of good. Too bad his story has been twisted into another "his life was a cover for his true vile evilness that nobody was able to see or notice." There are a lot of foils and bad guys in Greyhawk's past and present. Perhaps Iggwilv's Legacy could have been fine just mentioning that she had built her work on Tsojcanth's studies. It would have been nice to retain Tsojcanth as one of the few points of good in the Aerdy past.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:48 am  

    When running the SCAP Surabar and Tsojcanth were the same person. I didn't particularly like the name "Spellmason" and I always envisioned Tsojcanth to be a Baklunish wizard from the days before the Invoked Devastation.

    I liked the idea of a Baklunish wizard trying to undo some of the Suel's vile imperialist ideals (I always assumed that Cauldron was a Suel outpost and pretty much ignored Dungeon's history relating to Sasserine and Cauldron as being thrown together after the Twin Cats) I guess I will have to read the new background and see how much I like. I can pretty much guarantee I will throw away the half fiend bit, Surabar/Tsojcanth works much better as half-elemental or genasi.
    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 am  

    Surabar! That's the first I've heard that name. Even so I never really read the SCAP mods so I could go hunting if I were inclined. Confused
    CF Admin

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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:30 am  
    Surabar

    mortellan wrote:
    Surabar! That's the first I've heard that name.

    Surabar is the alleged founder of Cauldron and Redgorge in the Shackled City Adventure Path. I don't think equating him with Tsojcanth is a particularly well fitting idea.

    I do like Lassiviren's take on Cauldron as being established by Suel who ranged far south. Are there any Suel people left in Greyhawk histories to have wandered to that region?

    Don (Greyson)
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:47 am  

    If you look at the old WoG folio the migration arrows show a big path of Suel heading down into the Amedio. Which is where all those pale and naked Suel tribesmen come from.

    To me it makes much more sense that the feral Suel were partly there because of the collapse of the Suel Imperium but also to give a valid reason why they would migrate into the Green Nightmare after the Twin Cataclysms in the first place.

    If you take the migration arrows at face value there doesn't seem to be much reason for them to head into the Amedio. Sasserine and Cauldron actually give a pretty good reason for them to head there.

    With the collapse of the Suel Imperium you have a steady decline in both Sasserine and Cauldron and then suddenly you have an influx of Suel right before the Rain of Colorless Fire.

    As Suel interests gradually turn inward as they face their war against the Baklunish, Cauldron and Sasserine become little more than ghost towns. But suddenly as people come pouring out of the Suel Imperium to get away from the horrible conditions both during the war and around the Twin Cats both areas become "boom towns" overloaded with refugees. The worst and most disruptive Suel would be forced out of the towns and further into the Amedio...anyway thats what I came up with for my SCAP campaign.

    Tsojcanth/Surabar gave me two things: It gave me a name from Greyhawk history that my players would equate with. (After all Surabar Spellmason just sounded lame to me.) It also nailed down a racial background for "Surabar" that fit with what was written about him in the SCAP. A great elementalist that had much knowledge of gates to other planes.

    Tsojcanth in my estimation had links to Daoud, a Baklunish who created a lanthorn of artifact ability and created his own religion becoming a deity in the process. I suppose the link to Daoud could simply be Iggwilv (herself Baklunish) gaining control of the artifact at some point, but I liked to imagine that Iggwilv simply took control of Tsojcanths caverns after he left them.

    Anyway I had tons of this stuff written out for my SCAP campaign most of it my players never ever discovered.
    CF Admin

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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:51 pm  

    darkmonkey99 wrote:
    Just read this thing. Enjoyed it but I can't make a decision until I see what they do with the rest of S4. As for what we can expect in the future for Greyhawk, I'm guessing odd things here and there as they attempt to hook us into 4th edition and then keep us there.


    I'm interested to see what they do with the next installments, as well as the next level. The preview, as well as the possibility that I may take over DMing our players after we wrap up Caverns of Thracia, spurred me on about a month ago to begin working on my expansions to S4's underground lake level, and such. I'll be very curious to see how they stage the areas around Iggwilv's Horn vs. the Lost Caverns.

    Some relevant discussion on this over on ENWorld too: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=209480

    darkmonkey99 wrote:
    I'm most worried about Maure Castle. I was enjoying the idea of more levels at some point, but now they'll do any new levels (if at all) in 4th edition.


    Rob's still planning to release freebie levels for MC on his site, from time to time. Warlock's Walk was run at GenCon this year, and will appear sometime, hopefully sooner vs. later ;)
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:22 pm  

    Hey, guys. Thought I'd pop in to address a few of the comments and questions.

    (Some potential spoilers follow.)









    First off, regarding us making Tsojcanth a fiend, that wasn't just something we did for the heck of it. That fact ties into events that occur in the third part of the adventure. If, having read that, you still don't like that background--by all means, change it. Smile But I hope you'll consider it in context first.

    That said, when C.A. and I came up with this idea, it had been years since I'd read anything about Acererak. At the time, if I'd ever known that he was part fiend, I had forgotten it. (I wouldn't even have remembered now, if someone hadn't mentioned it upthread.) We deliberately wanted to echo the parentage of Iuz a bit, since the story heavily involves his mom, but I hadn't realized we were echoing any other major classic D&D villains. Sorry 'bout that. Embarassed

    As far as the reliance on taint and Heroes of Horror, that's because when we first envisioned this--a long time ago Wink --we'd just worked on that book. There was even some talk, for a while, of tying them in even more closely, since it was still a recent release at the time. Obviously, we didn't, and it shouldn't be too hard to remove those aspects of the adventure if you wish. I'm pretty sure that you could just ignore any reference to taint, and it wouldn't ruin anything except maybe the mood of a few specific encounters.

    And I am glad to hear that people appreciate the use of Greyhawk mythology. I'm not as heavily into it as some (such as, say, Erik Mona Wink ), but I really do like the world. We did our best to make sure not to directly contradict anything, and to use as much as possible.

    In any case, I'm happy to answer any specific questions (though I'd have to mostly talk about this chapter, since the forthcoming sections were written primarily by others).

    (Uh, and if someone could tell me why I can't get my sig file to work properly, that'd be great, too. Embarassed )
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:42 pm  

    Welcome to the CF forums Mouseferatu. My question isn't on the current chapter but I'm more looking for scoops. Are there any other classic Greyhawk mods you are working on for Wizards or would like to pitch?
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Welcome to the CF forums Mouseferatu. My question isn't on the current chapter but I'm more looking for scoops. Are there any other classic Greyhawk mods you are working on for Wizards or would like to pitch?


    None that I'm currently working on, no. But there are a lot of classic modules that I'd wanted to revisit in 3E, and that I'd love to revisit in 4E. While none of them are too heavy on the Greyhawk lore, I'd love to play with little bits I can as the situations arise.
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    Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:21 pm  

    Personally, I like what I've seen and it has rekindled my interest in WoG (if only my players could get so fired up over so little... Wink ). Since currently I'm kind of re-imagining WoG, I don't know how much of this I can actually use (especially since there isn't a connection to Iggwilv and Iuz in my revision), but I can always lift what I like. Cool
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    Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:39 am  

    I like what I've seen so far. I quite like the use of the Heroes of Horror material, as that's my favourate book for 3.5. Cool The idea of a village of insane, murderous gnomes just appeals to my inner madman.

    But one potential problem: Is the adventure going to be entirely documented within one issue of Dungeon, or will it be spread over several issues? And will it be the same for other adventures?
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    Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:05 am  

    DavidBedlam wrote:
    But one potential problem: Is the adventure going to be entirely documented within one issue of Dungeon, or will it be spread over several issues? And will it be the same for other adventures?


    My understanding is that all three parts appear in the same issue. Part two should be up later this week, part three the week after, and they'll all be part of the issue when it's compiled at the end of the month.

    And I believe the only reason this was split into three parts is because of its length; each part the size, or at least almost the size, of a "normal" Dungeon adventure. The majority of adventures in Dungeon online should not, I understand, be split into parts at all.
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    Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:44 am  

    Mouseferatu wrote:
    First off, regarding us making Tsojcanth a fiend, that wasn't just something we did for the heck of it. That fact ties into events that occur in the third part of the adventure. If, having read that, you still don't like that background--by all means, change it. Smile But I hope you'll consider it in context first.


    I actually got a chance to read the first part of Chapter 1 last night and if I was to use it for my regular group of players I would have to change quite a bit. Mainly because they have already dealt with the Demonskar outside of Redgorge which is eerily similar to the Abyssal leaking around Iggwilv's Horn.

    Ironically I wouldn't need to change Tsojcanth/Surabar at all. It would make almost perfect sense for him to be involved with the fight against the demon hordes around the Demonskar and the founding of Redgorge, the timeline is almost perfect considering how old the Caverns need to be to predate Iggwilv's apprenticeship to Zagig. The main difference is that "Surabar" was an elementalist and Tsojcanth is an Oeridian archmage now. Wink

    I just don't know if I buy into the whole Iggwilv summoning him back and plugging him into some sort of seal... I am assuming he will be the main big boss the PC's face in Chapter 3.
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    Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:48 am  
    Taint is Good

    DavidBedlam wrote:
    I quite like the use of the Heroes of Horror material...

    I also liked the use of the Taint rules from Heroes of Horror. We used the same rules in our Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and it was a lot of fun. I think that the taint rules serve three great purposes in Iggwilv's Legacy. First, they are a good mechanic to demonstrate the power of the region's lingering evil. It takes beyond a DM just saying it's a bad place. The evil manifests itself. And, the battle of the characters' wills against the taint is a constant reminder of where the characters are. Last, as the potential for taint to take hold builds, the feeling of dread can also escalate as the players get deeper into this thing. This adventure can give GMs a chance to try the rule out that have not, yet. I say give it a try if you use the v3.x rules.

    Don (Greyson)


    Last edited by Greyson on Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:30 am  

    It's really good so far. Introduction of Taint helps to make the region far more sinister. The original module never had a feel that Iggwilv's influence could still be felt and this will certainly add that.

    One criticism to all updaters of old modules: DMs really hate having to make names up on the spot. If you are going to give a nod to a character from a classic mod by saying e.g. Laird Gwaylar died last year, please update the mod with some details about their replacement e.g. Laird Gwaylar Jr or Minty Gwaylar, the Laird's second cousin and guinea pig breeder now rules the clan.
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    Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:33 am  

    I just realised that this years Hallowen lands in my game night.

    So, if the rest of the adventure lands in time, I can use it as a scary hallowen adventure, and finally get some serious use out of Heroes of Horror!

    You hear that Mouseferatu? Get working! *cracks whip* Laughing
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    Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:57 am  

    DavidBedlam wrote:
    I just realised that this years Hallowen lands in my game night.

    So, if the rest of the adventure lands in time, I can use it as a scary hallowen adventure, and finally get some serious use out of Heroes of Horror!

    You hear that Mouseferatu? Get working! *cracks whip* Laughing


    Hey! Careful with that. Shocked

    Actually, you're whipping the wrong guy. Each of the three authors involved wrote one of the three "chapters," so my part in this trilogy is done*. However, all the parts were turned in some time ago. So unless there's a problem with development or formatting, I expect you'll be seeing the other parts on time. (Specifically, I think part two comes out this week, and part three next week.)

    *Don't worry about them fitting together, though. C.A. and I worked very closely together, developing parts 1 and 3, and we carefully perused a copy of the original Lost Caverns when doing so. Further, development would have gone back through to smooth out any few inconsistencies remaining. So while all three chapters have different writers, they really will fit together as a single product.

    (That said, I do have another adventure coming to Dungeon in a few months. It's not Greyhawk-related or tied in to the Tsojcanth/Iggwilv material, but if you're looking for more horror material for your D&D campaign, you'll definitely want to take a gander when it comes out...)
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    Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:38 pm  

    Nice work on the background story. The first chapter made me count the days this week till the second chapter is released. I must have!! Happy
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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:18 am  

    Mouseferatu wrote:
    Hey! Careful with that. Shocked

    Actually, you're whipping the wrong guy.


    Then who should I be motivating? Wink

    But seriously folks... Good to hear that everything's going to be prompt. Still not entirly sold on the D&DInsider thing, but if this issue is good, it might convince me to try it out.
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:49 pm  

    The second chapter's up now. You have to download the first chapter again to get it, though.

    The second chapter is the Lesser Caverns. It includes classic monsters like the stirge, pech, and gorgimera.
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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:21 pm  

    Huh. Looks like they broke the Lesser and Greater Caverns into two parts. So I guess it's a four-part series, now, instead of three.
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    Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:44 pm  

    Egad! Please tell me it won't be like this when Dungeon goes subscription.
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    Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:51 pm  
    Dungeon's New Problem

    mortellan wrote:
    Egad! Please tell me it won't be like this when Dungeon goes subscription.

    Yeah, I think that this releasing a Dungeon adventures in parts is not too cool. I can live with it, but no fun waiting.

    The bigger problem is the practice of releasing them online. At our game Thursday night, two of our players talked about Iggwilv's Legacy. So much for running it for them, which I was gonna do. That never happened During Age of Worms and other PRINT Dungeon adventures - because they were not posted for all to see!

    I know this if way off topic. But, I really hope some other means of distribution is developed to replace the general posting of DM only material.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:18 am  

    Well, you have to consider that the only thing that kept Dungeon magazine from the players was player honesty (and, perhaps, unwillingness to subscribe).

    Iggwilv's Legacy is being posted *for free* and as an exemplar of the kind of content folks can expect from Dungeon Online. So its going to attract a lot more interest than a similar dungeon in the print magazine. I think that once Dungeon is gated by subscription, you won't have the same problem as you had with Iggwilv's Legacy.
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    Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:39 pm  
    Re: Dungeon's New Problem

    Greyson wrote:
    mortellan wrote:
    Egad! Please tell me it won't be like this when Dungeon goes subscription.

    Yeah, I think that this releasing a Dungeon adventures in parts is not too cool. I can live with it, but no fun waiting.


    I believe that was done this time purely due to the length of the three parts, all of which are as long, or almost as long, as a "normal" adventure in their own right. My understanding is that most Dungeon adventures will not be broken up into parts.
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