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    Canonfire :: View topic - 2nd and 3rd edition game play combinations?
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    2nd and 3rd edition game play combinations?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 06, 2003
    Posts: 38
    From: Unknown?

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    Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:25 pm  
    2nd and 3rd edition game play combinations?

    I wanted to get some feedback from the forum about their thoughts on combining/ taking out some rule/game play between 2nd and 3rd editions. I am trying to use the best of both Editions while DMing. I still like using THAC0 and AC from 2nd edition but like other elements of 3rd Edition. I am still trying to work these thoughts out because I have not invested in the 3rd editon stuff. Take Saving Throws for example, I can see using Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves instead of the standard saving throws matrix in 2nd edition. Would that work? I also can see incorporating the feat bonus and enhancement benefits from online DDO to 2nd edition game play as well.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

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    Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:58 pm  

    In my long-and-sometimes-painfully considered opinion, I think it would be difficult to simply combine the two systems. There are definitely good and bad elements of both, but given the dissimilarities of each I think it would be impractical to build one system out of the two.

    I tend to believe that 3.5e is considerably more consistent, more integrated, and more flexible in some ways. 1e/2e has a more enjoyable "flavor" (at least for me), a far better rate of progression in terms of characters gaining levels, and is more flexible in other ways. You'll have some minor mathematical difficulties using THAC0 with other 3.x rules, since the d20 system incorporates far more ways to alter AC. There will also be tons of problems combining the combat rules, skills, feats, monsters, and character options because 3.5e's systems are far too interdependent to accommodate what has been written for 1e and 2e.

    Here's what I recommend (it's also more-or-less what I do IMC): Use the 3.5e rules (you don't have to buy the books; just download the SRD), but double or even triple the number of experience points needed to gain a level. Also ignore much of the advice given on various websites and in various books for how to build a good adventure or an enjoyable encounter - use the 1e/2e stuff for that, and let your players' reactions be your guide. And by all means don't drop/ignore/leave out any element in 1e/2e that you liked just because it doesn't seem to fit into 3.5e's systematic framework.

    And of course you'll want to include whatever house rules you find necessary.
    Novice

    Joined: Dec 11, 2007
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    Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:13 pm  

    What about using the XP charts from 2nd Edition, but keeping the graduated CR system of 3.x? This would allow for a slower level progression.

    IMO the skills system (Rank+Attribute Mod+misc+d20= result) is really solid in 3.5 and represents scalability that holds up against level.

    Do you use the Feats with a THACO combat system? I am curious, are you using weapon damages with variation VS. size of monster?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

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    Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:30 am  

    Using the 2e XP charts with the 3.x CR system won't work:

    1) The CR system assumes 3.x characters. 2e characters don't have the same power level as 3.x e characters, thus they'll likely be overpowered if you calculate CR as written. Since the math between the 2 systems doesn't match up, you'll have to either redesign the 2e classes or redesign the CR system, either is (IMO) more work than it's worth.

    2) If you're using 3.x characters, using the 2e XP tables will be unfair. Since 3.x character levels are designed to be balanced, forcing some characters to advance more slowly than other characters just won't work out. On the other hand, if you're using 2e class abilities, then you have the math problems mentioned above. 2e characters just aren't as powerful as 3.x characters.

    3) The power and abilities of 3e monsters do not exactly match those of their 2e counterparts. For example, most 3.x monsters have significantly more hit points than 2e monsters of the same type. Therefore, if you retain 2x characters and 2x monsters, using the CR system will still break down mathematically unless you recalculate the CR for every monster - again, IMO that's more work than it's worth.

    I suppose if you had the time and wanted to go to all that effort you could shoehorn the two systems together, but it seems far easier to me to just use one system or the other.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

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    Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:46 am  

    Forgive me Bubbagump, I would like to offer an opinion that regretfully differs....

    I can't stand the progression 3.5 offers. The XP chart goes up way to quickly for me and the monsters are worth more than they should be. What I did is take the current level the character wants to reach and multiply it by the listed amount of XP in 3.5. This provides very slow progression. Most likely to slow for most folks. You could multiply the numbers using a modified version of this idea. For example, take the amount of XP times half the level or something similar. Number crunch and write out a chart using different versions and accept the one you like.

    Alternatively, you could accept one 2nd edition XP chart and use that for all classes. Find the one that you like the most for progression and apply it to all classes. This would be the easiest.

    Radically adjusting the XP system requires you to make some basic changes in the way you play. You will have to find the right numeric balance for you and your players in order to make sure your comfortable with character progression as well as each player.

    Monsters will need a closer look when you concern yourself with what is a suitable encounter. As Bubbagump mentions, applying the challenge ratings as is, will overwhelm 2nd edition characters. He is correct. Instead of having a CR 4 monster for 2nd edition characters, you may have to go with monsters who's CR is lower than the characters. Not a big deal, just something to keep an eye on. It really is easy unless your just starting out. If your new to DMing I wouldn't mess around with it.

    Modules (if you use them) present a significant challenge. You probably are reading them in advance and making your own notes as to how to tailor it towards your party. Adjusting the XP system requires you to keep a closer eye on this. You may have to remove a monster or two if your using a 3rd edition module and 2nd edition characters. The biggest downside to modifying XP (at least as much as I did) is using modules which are either very long (such as The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil). The characters don't advance fast enough for the increased encounters as the module gets tougher. You would also have the same problem with a series of related modules for 3.X edition. The bottom line is you need to tinker with modules a lot if you do something like what I did. If your changes are pretty small then it isn't an issue but rasies the question of why do it in the first place unless it has significant game play difference.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 30, 2004
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    Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:21 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    I can't stand the progression 3.5 offers. The XP chart goes up way to quickly for me and the monsters are worth more than they should be.


    When they were doing research during the design stages of 3.0, they determined that the average campaign lasts a year before it falls apart or the players move on to something else.
    (Darn kids and their new-fangled video games. No attention span. Why, in my day...)
    They wanted everyone to get full use of the material, so they designed the xp system to take characters from 1st level to 20th level after a year of steady play.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
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    Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:40 am  

    Yep. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for us "real" grognards. We like to take things slooooowly. Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 06, 2003
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    Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:32 pm  

    Thanks for the feedback Group. It looks like the combat and EXP systems are too incompatble for it to be worth trying to fit. I need to review the Save and Skills process more closely to see if it could work. I do see the possibility of including the Feat bonus and Enhancment benifits into magic items as a way to use some of the cooler elements from 3rd edition. Hate to see that stuff go to waste.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2005
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    Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:37 pm  

    As for THAC0, I can't say this would ever be a good idea, but then I always hated THAC0. Not that I couldn't figure it, but it seemed unnecessarily complex. Of course the 3.x system of AC isn't much better. The best modification I've seen for the AC/to hit issue is to use the Defense option, with armor providing damage reduction. You get hit more, but the heavier armors provide for less actual damage. But then, I was a fan of Rolemaster back before it was simplified. Math and math theory doesn't scare me or turn me away.

    All that said, regarding the experience gain: the biggest, easiest fix I could see without materially changing the game (messing with the XP chart, etc), is to reduce the actual experience given. If you think the characters should advance at half their rate, divide experience (after its figured up normally) by two. Its a better fix to provide the slower advancement than to materially change the system which is very internally consistent, once you truly understand the mathematics involved. Personally I don't think its all that messed up, but then our games do tend to fall apart every year or two, or we get a hankering to try something new we just thought up, etc. And given the hectic schedule of our lives (those in my group(s)), we don't get to play nearly as much as we'd like. So while we may have only had 4 sessions, it may be a year to get through those four sessions. After a year you want a bit more than a level or two - at least I do. But as we all tend to play on the high side of the CR system, XP comes often enough that its generally got a decent progression. The level of starting and ending are irrelevant, because the system scales pretty well at all levels. Though it does hurt more at higher levels to cut experience than it does low levels.

    I dunno, I generally like all game systems for their own mertis; the more complex, the more I like it. But that's just my thing.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:42 am  

    The easiest thing to swap into the 2e rules are the Feats and Skills sections from 3e+. Drop the 2e Weapon and Non-weapon Proficiencies and simply replace them with the Feats and Skills system from 3e+. You can limit Feats to just those in the Core Rules or expand the list of options as you want. The 3e saving throw categories swap over very well also.
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