Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - How populated is the realm?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    How populated is the realm?
    Author Message
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:07 pm  
    How populated is the realm?

    I have been wondering about how much is actually known about the world of Oerth, by its inhabitants? How many ancient ruins are littering the world? I have been looking at the online Age of Conan recently and I am inspired by a lot of what I see. I can imagine three statues of warriors kings just hanging about in the wilderness for a party to come by stumble upon. In 1st ed. D&D, it wouldn't be uncommon to find a small walled city of orcs in a civilized kingdom! Just how civilized are the realms. I have always invisioned Greyhawk as a place that, once you were 20-30 miles froma major city, Good luck! Is there actually a wilderness?

    I had to explain to one of my players that no one knows whats going on in the next village. He tried to throw up all kinds of arguments and counter arguments until finally I said, "Okay come with me." We go into the car drove five minutes to the other side of town (Oak Ridge, TN) and got out at a park. Nice view of the park, it was quiet, trees lined the road to quell the noise of traffic, some kids played on the playground equipment and I pointed to the kids, "What are they doing?" The player said, "Playing." I asked, "How do you know." He looked at me rather ill tempered and said, "Because I can see them duh!" I smiled and pointed to one of the many forested ridges and said, "How long would it take by foot to get across that ridge, assuming there was a trail?" He shrugged, "Couple of hours I guess, why?" I smiled, "What's going on on the other side of the ridge? Has there been an accident? Is there a fire? How many red cars are in the Kroger super market right now?" He shrugged, getting impatient. I said, "Exactly my point. It would take a few hours to trudge along the trail, over the ridge to Kroger, count the cars and then a few more hours to come tell me. In that time, you could be robbed by bandits, eaten by a leucrotta, kidnapped by orcs or enslaved. No one at Kroger would have known when you set out, no one would have known if you got there from here and if anything happened to you, no one would have the resources to find you. Heck, you could wander all the way over to find Kroger being besieged by Flan barbarians and you wouldn't know until you got there." Suddenly a shaft of lightening hit him and he realized what travel by foot really meant. Shocked
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
    Posts: 594


    Send private message
    Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:41 pm  

    I would have let him walk home. You argue with this Dungeon Master and I'll boot you out of my game so fast you won't have enough time to utter, "world of darkness sucks!"
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:01 pm  

    Allow me to offer a quotation from; "The Bedside Companion to Sherlock Holmes," by **** Riley and Pam McAllister, pages 12 & 13:

    "No technology changed the face of daily life in the nineteenth century as extensively as did the revolution in transportation. Railroads propelled by steam began running in Great Britian about 1830 and by 1870 (Sherlock Holmes' time) England had more than 13,000 miles of track, . . . Without the speed and efficiency of the railroad at bringing in food . . . London . . . could never have developed into (its) present size. . . . made travel possible for hundreds of thousands of people who previously could expect to leave their county, or even their parish, only a few times in their lives." (Italics mine)

    Not just during the time of Egypt, or Rome, or the Middle Ages (Time Periods at which we place the "setting" for WoG), but even just 100 years ago, people rarely traveled very far from their homes. They lived and died within a few miles of where they were born. Shocked

    Tell your player; "Sorry, but that's the way it was in our world and that's the way it still is in WoG." Mad
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 30, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Niflheim, 9to5

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:37 am  

    It seems that people are forgetting about magic. Sure, there is no advanced transportation/communication technology, but there is plenty of transportation/communication magic. Sending spells, scrying, teleportation, wind walk, cloud boats, etc. Rulers and people in positions of power who needed information on neighboring regions would have it (unless the neighboring regions also used magic to hide such information). If that information was deemed valuable to the general citizens of a city, it would then be distributed by the usual means (postings, criers, etc.).

    Don
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 22, 2002
    Posts: 15
    From: NM

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:40 am  

    The only issue I could see with that is it would be the equivalent of the population of the US getting all their international news from the CIA instead of the news media. Shocked

    The media equivalent for the public is traveling tinkers, salesmen, and caravans. This was true even in our country until years after the advent of the telephone. Newspapers were prevalent in large cities and along rail lines (where the telegraph ran) but only a minimal amount of that information reached the outlying towns and villages. Even today, where I live, the local paper only covers items of local interest. There is one paper brought here to provide international news and if it weren't for satellite TV that would be it. We get one radio station here, and one TV station (only if you have a huge antennae on the roof of your house). There is still a large amount of information gathered from travellers and new people in town.

    A couple of issues off the top of my head:

    One, the mage would not necessarily tell the ruler everything he found out.

    Two, the vast majority of the information gathered would be of minimal use/interest to the general populace.

    Three, in the interest of keeping the population happily ignorant, much of the information that was released would be “spun” to prevent panic, insurrection, flight, etc.

    Few courts have the resources, unless involved in a magic heavy campaign, to maintain that kind of magic use. No self-respecting mage wants to play AT&T/NSA for the king. He would much rather be researching new spells and etc and would consider it a colossal waste of time to do things like this more than once in a while. If the king is a mage, that is different. Although, I posit that he would be too caught up in state business to spend a tremendous amount of time scrying, calling, etc. This type of activity would be saved for only the most important tasks. The biggest source of information should be the kings’ spymaster, expending magical resources to clarify, or verify, information thus received.

    Resources would have to be spent to prevent/detect scrying as well so any nation that used these methods of information gathering and communication would automatically think others use them against them. They would likely expend resources on defense of information in a 1.5 or 2 to 1 ratio to information gathering. Again, I can’t think of any current kingdom in Greyhawk that has the type of resources this would require. Perhaps the Great Kingdom, at its height, Vecna, the Suel, or something like that where the ruler(s) are Magi but no-one current.

    Just a thought
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 04, 2003
    Posts: 156
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:51 am  

    On Population:

    Only population for the Flanaess (a small portion of a single continent of the planet) has ever really been detailed. And even those details are oft debated, including in several threads here on Canonfire!. The population amounts were given in the 1983 box set and revised in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 2000 but when compared to historical data we know of the real world the numbers still seemed to be really off what they should be.

    Generally, when running a Greyhawk game I'll use either of the published sources for my basic population figures (which source depends on which era the campaign is set in) but I feel fine changing the numbers to suit whatever I'd like to do.

    Actually, you got me thinking about fleshing out the Flanaess. I spent a lot of time sitting in the back of the classroom in highschool drawing maps for Flanaess cities and towns, figuring out were various buildings would be and what they would be and doing thumbnail sketches the important NPCs for the place. That was back in the 80s now and there are some short cuts today.

    I particularly like S. John Ross' Medieval Demographics Made Easy. Brandon Blackmore made a program called The Domesday Book were you plug in some numbers and it uses John Ross' statistics to generate fantasy RPG nations and population centers.

    The links are:

    http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
    http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/

    And I still get to draw maps and make NPCs which is fun but the program keeps me from forgetting to put something in a village that logically should be there.


    On knowing what's going on:

    I think all of you have very valid points and are right. The degree to which things are known is going to depend on who is involved, the kind of access they have to tech and magic, the area where they are located, and the countermeasures used to hide what's happening.

    For example: The Kingdom of Furyondy is a generally lawfully aligned nation with extensive well-maintained roads, a strong economy, and a powerful king with some rather high-level advisers.

    The common population would probably know more about what is going on in areas further away from their homes than say a commoner from The Great Kingdom were the people in power have no interest in allowing them to know whats what or the commoners in the Barbarian kingdoms where there aren't the roads and commerce to speed news on its way.

    The king on the other hand would be receiving constant reports on the state of his realm, some from gossip, others official reports from his vassals, some from his spies, and some from the magical information gathering of his clerics and mages. Most of his attention would be concentrated towards Iuz but then so would most of the effort to hide things from his attention. He would know a great deal more and more quickly than a commoner.

    Still, even things that he would specifically want to know could be kept from him. Take Prince Thrommel. A prince kidnapped and missing for years and nobody could find him because of the magic used to hide him.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 30, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Niflheim, 9to5

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:37 am  

    Artalian wrote:
    The only issue I could see with that is it would be the equivalent of the population of the US getting all their international news from the CIA instead of the news media. Shocked


    Heh. Threat level YELLOW, anyone? Smile

    I like that analogy, and I tend to agree. My main point is that people are probably going to know if there is an orcish enclave just over the horizon. For one thing, the ruler will definitely know about it, and for another it is in the best interest of his domain if his citizens know about it. It allows trade to continue along other routes and people are more tolerant of the increase in taxes the ruler demands in order to raise and train his army.

    If you look at the random encounter tables for the different regions in the Greyhawk boxed set and then compare these tables to those in the DM's Guide (1st ed., at least) for wilderness areas and inhabited/patrolled areas, it is clear that for any areas other than deep forest, mountains, or swamps, most areas are considered inhabited/patrolled. Real monsters are rare, although humanoids and bandits do occur. This means that most domains actively seek to protect their citizens from harm by responding to reports from outlaying areas about monsters/invaders. Only elusive or particularly pernicious threats persist, but then people would still know about them in order to avoid them. The sherrif of Nottingham may have tried to downplay the threat of Robin's Merry Men, but everyone knew about them.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:15 pm  

    Two things on travelling by foot: 1) when you do it, you realize how much larger the world really is. 2) people who walk everyday cover a lot more ground than some who drives would expect.

    So, when examamining Oerth and its population, take a look at size: 30 miles away is a long ways away on foot, there are lots of "places," between here and there, particularly in a world without strip malls and parking lots. A single hex is huge.

    Also, the hunters and traders would cover a lot of ground, so major incursions would be known, and that Kroger would not be that far away... it has food and water after all.

    Does this make sense?
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:43 pm  

    As I recall, the premise of WoG has always been that the Player Characters are above/beyond normal.

    We're talking "normal" people here. People received their news by means of "town criers." I don't doubt that one of two things happened:

    1. That the king definitely edited the news. Shocked

    2. That the king did not actually send a messenger from, say, "Chendl," over to "Mooselodge." (Heaven forfend! We did not inform the good people of Mooselodge? Confused )

    I seriously doubt that any NPC Magician was overly concerned with whether or not the people of "Mooselodge" received "the latest news." The people in "Mooselodge" would quite likely know that there was an Orc enclave over the "next hill," next to their own town, but I seriously doubt that they would know that there was an Orc enclave "over the next hill" over in "Meadowbrook."

    The "latest news" would be eagerly awaited and several weeks old, if not months old. The people of "Mooselodge" probably still hailed "Theobald" as king a month after his death ( Shocked In all likelyhood). And that information would be important news.

    Any study of ancient cultures shows that the "average" person lived and died within a very few miles of their birth place. So, the people of "Mooselodge" might receive some belated news about the happenings in their own capital, "Chendl," but would, in all probability, have very little idea of what was taking place in Rel Mord. Sad

    Just my thoughts. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
    Posts: 252
    From: Nyrond

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:28 am  

    I have read your posts and I appreciate the enthusiastic responses. I agree with pretty much all of you. I believe that the majority of commoners wouldn't be aware of factual information much farther outside their own village, town, city, etc and even then, it would be selective to what is important to them (how many of you can name your local town mayor, members of the board of trustees/aldermen or state congressman) Wink With this being said, I believe that certain peaceful places would be patrolled, but patrolled selectively too. Major caravan routes would be patrolled, but maybe small units or groups of scouts (can we say adventurers) would be used to see what's going on from time to time in yonder hills.

    I don't fill court mages or mages in the employ of royalty would be used to scry over the world. Nobility *might* use mages every now and again to get a birds eye view of the immediate area. I think the local ruler would say, "If there's trouble, come get me. Until then, no news is good news...oh and have you payed your taxes this year?" I think that even though there are established borders, most people live in concentrated areas. It's just too dangerous for the common man to live out in the wilderness away from civilization. Mankind isn't the top of the food chain, so there is safety in numbers :-) As it has been mentioned before, it's a big world out there and a hex of 30 is a HUGE piece of land by foot.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:09 pm  

    Sorry, this is a little long. Shocked

    The following excerpt is to be found in the publication: "1066 The Year of the Conquest," pages 12-19. This is the year that William the Conqueror invaded England. It refers to the village of Horstede, which existed at that time and was only a few miles from where Willam landed.

    "A village was surrounded by a fence, and its land by another outer fence. Beyond that were miles and miles of primeval forest and heath, empty and wild . . . For ordinary people, to see the nearest town might be the event of a year or even a lifetime, and to meet a stranger was a nine days wonder. If a traveler approached the village, he blew a horn before he crossed the outer fence to show he was coming openly. . . .

    "Within his own village, an Englishman knew everybody and almost every tree and animal. . . . But he had no conception of a map, no mental image of the shape of the country as it might be seen from hundreds of miles above, or of the relative positions of places in it. . . . He lived in a world that had his own village as its centre. . . .

    "Conversely, the news of the outside world that came into the village was vague, brought by pedlars, or filtering down from mouth to mouth from the house of the Lord, or rumored at the occasional district meetings. . . .

    "the Thane, whose name was Ulfer. . . . Ulfer was the only man in the village likely to travel far . . . he had to appear and share judgment of crimes and disputes in the hundred court, which met once a month, and perhaps in the shire court which heard more serious cases twice a year. . . .

    "Horstede was less isolated than many of the villages of England . . . Horstede people could reach the outside world without much trouble if they wanted to. But isolation, imposed on most villages by distance, was also an attitude of mind. There was no reason for them to go to Lewes (12 miles away), except on an annual expedition to sell the produce they could spare; no reason ever for them to cross the river to the Roman road (2 miles distant). No doubt when they did go to town they felt out of place and a little apprehensive, like any country people, and were glad to get home again. . . .

    "There was one link that joined Horstede to the social system of England, but it was not the town, it was the hundred. Though rule at the top was autocratic, the English of that age were great committee men. Horstede, and any other village, organized its own affairs at a village meeting, a moot, and if they had a problem they could not solve they took it to the hundred moot. Above that was the shire moot, and above all the witena gemot, the embryo parliment which advised the King. . . .

    "One senior citizen of Horstede would therefore ride out once a month, . . . to attend the hundred moot."

    All of this was taking place approximately 1100 years after Julius Caesar. So, you have to ask yourself, just how "modern" is your WoG? Confused

    People did not travel very far from their place of birth their entire lives. And the village did not receive all the "latest" news. And the news was usually distorted, somewhat. Sad

    Just in case you wanted to know! Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:25 am  

    I think that gives the flavor of my campaign better than I ever have.... it is how I want my players to see the world.

    Thanks,
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:56 pm  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    I think that gives the flavor of my campaign better than I ever have.... it is how I want my players to see the world.

    Thanks,


    I enjoy your posts as well. Cool

    Thanks right back at ya! Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:44 am  

    Very nice post Wink

    Read post after post and then discover someone has said it better then your fumbling efforts.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 06, 2003
    Posts: 85
    From: Torrance, Calif.

    Send private message
    Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:19 am  

    I remember in my early medieval class something about demographics of the era. After the fall of the Roman Empire there was a great contraction in the number of people living in Europe, people fled the cities and retreated into the countryside where they lived in increasingly isolated communities. It wasn't until the 10th century or so when a period of internal colonization really began.

    The Flanaess has only been inhabited for a few hundred years by humans in any great number. I tend to look at the Flanaess as being in a similar state as early medieval europe. A period when there were still places to colonize, even though those lands have been claimed by someone.

    To get an even more in-depth look at how populations behave, you might want to pick up the book by Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs and Steel and Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed. These books will give you an idea of how human societies have interacted, and why.

    Recently, I have been doing some thinking on how magic impacts these societies. There are numerous resources on the web if you're looking for historical precedents, such as S. John Ross's treatise on historical population spreads, but I have yet to see anything on how magic would affect other social factors as crop yields or public health. Suffice to say that magic could do nothing but increase people's living conditions. Not too many local parish clerics would charge for healing if they want their church to expand. It wouldn't be hard for any old city or town in Greyhawk to have all of their lanterns lit by continual light spells. Hell, the spell is low-level and it lasts forever! plus, it would help safeguard the citizenry. Also, you could think of other magical effects that aren't explicitly spells listed in the PH. Why couldn't a water elemental have been persuaded to keep a city's water supply clean, pure and pressurized in exchange for a prayers and a special holy day in its honor? You could create a whole local religion (historical human populations are filled with local deities, even today in India) that plays a significant role in the city's politics. I found Exalted has some great source material that can inspire such drama.

    Economics plays a huge role in a nation's culture. You would probably get something out of figuring out what portion of the population falls into what economic strata. I wouldn't use the Unearthed Arcana for this as this is skewed towards social classes that could fund a fledgling adventurer, hence why many adventurers are Upper Middle Class!

    good luck!
    The Grey Mouser
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:39 pm  

    Alot of what you said makes sense Grey Mouser; depending on the availability of magic within the game world (magic levels within society). However you seem to overlook the adversarial nature of the gameworld.

    Many species oppose mankind rather them help them, for every elemental you can talk into helping another can be summoned to destroy the settlement. There are beneficial spells but also destructive spells; every healing village cleric has a disease spreading cultist.

    Magic and wonderous creatures are a two edged sword; I would argue this statement.

    GreyMouser wrote:
    Suffice to say that magic could do nothing but increase people's living conditions.


    * Thanks for the spell check Mystic-Scholar Wink


    Last edited by Crag on Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:52 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    However you seem to overlook the adversarily nature of the gameworld.

    Many species oppose mankind rather them help them, for every elemental you can talk into helping another can be summoned to destroy the settlement. There are beneficial spells but also destructive spells; every healing village cleric has a disease spreading cultist.

    Magic and wonderous creatures are a two edged sword . . .


    I agree. And to take it even further, I'd say that it's highly doubtful that a village like Horstede would even have a Cleric, much less a Magic User. Confused

    I believe that the rarity of such people is one of the things that makes the game interesting and gives Greyhawk its "wonder" element. Shocked

    And in addition to the adversarial nature of the game, there's the selfish nature as well. Even "good" magicians are not, necessarily, philanthropist. Confused

    Just my thoughts. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 64
    From: Stockholm, Sweden

    Send private message
    Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:47 pm  

    In addition, not every faith will find it appropriate to place continual light spells, or any other spell, willy-nilly around their community - and never for free!

    I guess that there will be a vast difference between the frontier and the heart of civilized kingdoms. At the heart of Furyondy or Keoland the mages and priests will be more inclined to indulge in "luxury" magic while the village priest is inlikely to have a continual light spell when so much more use could be had from a cure disease or death's door.
    _________________
    Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 06, 2003
    Posts: 85
    From: Torrance, Calif.

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:43 am  

    Ah, yes, Greyhawk is a low-magic world and many magical luxuries and other magical amenities that could easily be included in a write-up of Suzail in the Realms would not be present. Having them present would not be consistent with a low-magic AD&D world.

    I have dealt with high-level PCs and found just how effective they can be if they want. High-level NPC clerics and mages from the Flanaess's history (like Zagyg) have also been very active. Having a powerful, and long dead, spellcaster leave an interesting (i use that loosely) addition to a city that is still in effect is something that wouldn't spoil any of the tropes of Greyhawk.

    The nature of the game setting is adversarial, very much so on a political front, more than many of the game setting published by TSR/Wizards of the Coast. In the school of thought called Realism it is asserted that Power is the motivating factor between governments. It was the dominate school of political thought during the Cold War and the last eight years. A great fiction book that goes into great detail about this mindset (and infinitely easier way to understand and enjoy) can be found in Roget Zelazny's The Great Book of Amber. All of the politicking going on in that book is based upon Power. Indeed, Realism is the dominate modus operandi for most of human political history.

    I have been doing some thinking on this and realized that any non-human population that has challenged humanity (orcs, goblins, etc.) would be reduced to a very low level of technology, unless assisted by a strong state like Empire of Iuz, The Great Kingdom, and other lands who have found a way to deal with these highly aggressive populations. Humans have a frightening tendency to turn off empathy and wipe out anyone, or anything, that is not like them.

    ciao,
    The Grey Mouser
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 18, 2008
    Posts: 12
    From: Bologna, Italy

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:50 am  

    Really interesting topic.

    I'm just not so agreeing with the "selfish" nature pictured for the wizards (and clerics).
    I'll start from a bit far:
    As you can see under my avatar, i live in one of the ancient settlements in italy. My town, while it is not the greatest, has even been very important due to the strategic position (there's a great Wiki in english about my town, Bologna).
    The part that i think is in topic is that the Church was always present here. This means that the amount of travels between Bologna and Rome was high, compared to other towns. And, you know, more Clerics of the same god makes a church...am i right?
    <edit>This means that a town in a "central position" is also a "hub" for informations... and not only related to a church, 'cause the bodyguards still talk in taverns and so on.
    Drawing an "information route" in GH, based on where and how the Powers stays should be an interesting task.</edit>
    Wizards have the same aligment of the other classes... why no one wiz would have made somewhat useful? I can see them at lower levels as some artists here in the medieval / renassement era: they live in the palace of a king doing "nice" stuffs... there's not a king that want to make a great impression lighting his routes with a "eternal light" (and so he will be known as "XXXX the lighter Laughing )? i suppose someone will do.
    Also, some wizard may have liked the cartography art.... they are the people that study on the book.... the "love for the knowledge" is not only for the power given by the klowledge.... in some rare case.

    I hope you can understand me.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:06 am  

    My friends,

    It could easily be that some "king" might want to "light" the streets of his capital, but he's still going to have to pay for it. Mad

    Gentlemen -- and Ladies -- look at the world around you. It is not filled with philanthrapists. Human nature is human nature. The "powers" of our world send billions of tons of food to third world countries every year. Upon arriving there, the food promptly rots on the docks . . . for whatever reason. Its in the newspapers everyday. Sad

    Why are the "humans" of Oerth so much more philanthrapic? It might be nice to imagine that they are, given that we are dealing with a fantasy world, but it is completely unrealistic. Reality? Shocked In a fantasy world? Shocked Sure. Wink

    The fantasy world is the "smoke," good people. Somewhere, there is a "fire." That's the little bit of reality that needs to be thrown in. Wink

    Magicians did not spend many years learning their craft and growing in power just to give it away! Shocked Priest do not spend their lives in service to their God, gaining favor and power, just to "waste it" on unbelievers! Shocked This is the modern flavor that I've spoken of before.

    Parduz, the Catholic Church spent a thousand years, and more, persecuting and killing their fellow Catholics (the Inquisition anyone?) and other Christians (ever hear of the Reformation?), never mind the tens of thousands of Pagans that were killed. No Catholic priest was going to give the "blessing of Continual Light" to a village full of "heathens." Shocked

    How many of you have dropped $5 into the little red pot outside your local grocery store this season? How many of you that dropped in that $5 could really have dropped in $20? Confused Why would the humans of Oerth be any different than that? Confused

    Some rulers might very well pay to have their streets lit, and maybe even the gateways into the city, town, or castle. But, roadways between the cities? I think not. Wink

    A Water Elemental cleaning their personal well? Perhaps. A dozen of them cleaning the city's water supply? Doubtful. Rulers seldom care that the peasants are dying, much less whether or not they have clean water to drink. And do they even "know" that the water is "dirty?" Confused

    In example: 100 years ago, thousands of men died because the doctors used dirty hands, medical instruments and water to amputate their arms and legs. In the U.S., we called that the "Civil War." Sad

    Are you telling me that on Oerth -- which is supposed to exist in our own past -- some "thousands of years ago," they "knew" about germs? Confused Wow! Talk about "lost" knowledge! Shocked

    I find the pictures that I see (in WoG) of people wearing glasses to be "cute." Glasses did not exist during our own "Middle Ages," but they exist on Oerth, in what is supposed to be the same time frame? Confused

    The Europeans did not have tobacco before Christopher Columbus discovered America, but Hobbits and Dwarves smoke tobacco "thousands of years ago," on Oerth? Confused

    I don't really object to all of this. I really don't. I use these things in my own games. I'm simply pointing out that "a little leaven spoils the whole lump." The game already has enough "modern" (leaven) thoughts in it. We don't need to keep adding more. Sad

    Just my thoughts. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:07 pm  

    Some nice points that I would totally agree with Mystic Scholar, but Oerth isn't necessarily supposed to be a duplicate of our own Middle Ages except with elves and dwarves and such. True, there are alot of analogous institutions, nations and cultures, but the history of Oerth (or at least the Flanaess) is vastly different. While there are some similarities between the the Great Migrations of Oerth and the barbarian invasions at the end of the Western Roman Empire, there are some pretty big differences also. In the Flanaess it's like (As I see it) if the Romans and the Parthians nuked each other and then they and the germanic tribes all migrated over the Himilayas into something kind of like pre-colonial North America. Others would make that a very different analogy.

    Tobacco isn't something that's going to make that big a difference in the campaign, unless maybe you're a slave in the Sea Princes or wherever they grow it. Plus its traditional in fantasy at this point. Smile

    Regarding glasses, there actually were reading glasses at least by the mid 14th century if not the late 13th. Some scholars think the post-Alexandrian greeks may have developed lenses. So if say the Suel had made lenses and the knowledge hadn't been lost in the Twin Cataclysms then eyeglasses could easily be something well-developed in our "contemporary" Oerth, though they would of course only be for those able to afford them.

    Your remarks on human (and other) nature, and the crippling effect that would have on magical analogs of modern modern technology, I am almost totally in agreement with.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 18, 2008
    Posts: 12
    From: Bologna, Italy

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:34 am  

    Well, while Mystic Scholar says true things, the Truth is more vaste.
    As a fully explanation in english of my "vision" is too hard for me, i want to make some example.

    Look at San Pietro, the "Pope house" in Rome. Every single thing is built with a single, only purpose: "look how much GREAT I am/God is (choose your version Happy). The whole thing is built to flat you down and make you look "high". Do you think that if there magic and wizards at that time they don't hire some to add some "amazing" effect?

    Do you want a more mundane example? Versailles. Same reasoning: look how much rich and powerful i am. How Versailles should have been with Wizards?

    You may argue that both was build in "rich" ages, which is not the "actual" status of Flaneess. Well, you can look at any age, from Egyptians to "modern europe" and you'll find that there's ever at least one "king" that want to say "I'm the greatest in the whole History". If that person live in a "Magic" world, that person sure would have hired wizards to make somewhat astounding and unforgettable (or eternal).

    More: why ALL of the kings in GH should have a logical focus (good or evil morale does not matter)? From the Romans to today, there's a lot of "twisted mind" emperors or person with the Power that have spent more money for they own vicious things than for the "realm".

    More again: if Wizards are not so common in Oerth, this means that they can't stay isolated and immune from politician. As a player is allowed to play a wizard this means that they're also not so much rare (or you will have a quest just to find one of them)... they're just uncommon, and so they are somewhat that a kind will want to have (for the war powers, if not for anything else) and they are not strong enough (as a "category) to be able to avoid to live and serve some king. So, again, why not they should not be "used" to cast lights in the towns or in the king residence?
    So, P.S. while it is true that Magicians did not spend many years learning their craft and growing in power just to give it away! i see that they can be conviced todo that for whatever reason (a new tower? to keep the head on the neck?).
    Casting lights and colours requires not so much great power, am i right? Smile


    The "second branch" of this topic was "how much knowledge" there's in town...
    As you can see, there's no mention to "scientist, literates and phylosophist" in our fantasy word. I figure that this is 'cause the magic: THERE is the majority of the answers, and so the courious minds have to "fall" in the wizard class.
    I see Leonardo Da Vinci as a Wizard: he have not draw his "helycopter" to raise his power. He just had a courious and active mind. He makes money painting things, not drawing the human body or his inventions.
    So, why not GH should not have (or had) a wizard that flyes high (or travels the planes, or cast "somewhat") just to draw great maps of Oerth?
    I don't see anything bad in having wizards as "scientist", other than as "Saruman-Like" or "Gandalf-Like".

    Hope you can understand me.... i'm really worried about all these long post sounds to you all Embarassed
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:14 am  

    Parduz wrote:
    Look at San Pietro, the "Pope house" in Rome. The whole thing is built to flat you down and make you look "high". Do you want a more mundane example? Versailles. Same reasoning: look how much rich and powerful i am. How Versailles should have been with Wizards? . . . More: why ALL of the kings in GH should have a logical focus (good or evil morale does not matter)? . . . More again: if Wizards are not so common in Oerth, this means that they can't stay isolated and immune from politician. . . As a player is allowed to play a wizard . . . and they are not strong enough (as a "category) to be able to avoid to live and serve some king. So, again, why not they should not be "used" to cast lights in the towns or in the king residence? . . . So, why not GH should not have (or had) a wizard that flyes high (or travels the planes, or cast "somewhat") just to draw great maps of Oerth?


    Your posts "sound" just fine. Happy

    You will recall that I said there would be some kings who would want to do this due to their grandiose style. But, this post started talking about how this action would improve the lives of the people! Confused

    Such actions would be brought on by such a king's streak of selfishness, not his largess. Confused None of it would be done to "help" the people.

    The monuments in Egypt were built for the Pharoahs, not the people. In fact, archaelogical studies show that the people who built these monuments lived better than their counterparts in the cities, because they used their skills to improve their own life styles in their private communities near the monuments. So, they improved their position in life, but did little to improve conditions in the city for their fellow man. Sad

    Having "grown up" working in construction I can tell you why. I grew up as a 5th generation Bricklayer. My great, great grandfather was the first in my family. (I grew tired of the back-breaking work and moved to trucking at 36)

    Few -- very few -- of the Bricklayers I grew up with -- and know -- live in brick homes. Why? The work is too hard. They do it all day for pay and they come home tired. They're not coming home at night and doing it for free, even on their own homes. They just don't do it.

    Some "richman" paying for it? Yes. A tyrannical king using coercion? Probably. Immediately outside their own home, tower, cottage, chapel, et al? Again, probably. For all their neighbors, just to be philanthropic? Nope! Sad

    I'm just saying. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:49 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    . . . but Oerth isn't necessarily supposed to be a duplicate of our own Middle Ages except with elves and dwarves and such. True, there are alot of analogous institutions, nations and cultures, but the history of Oerth (or at least the Flanaess) is vastly different. . . Tobacco isn't something that's going to make that big a difference in the campaign, unless maybe you're a slave in the Sea Princes or wherever they grow it. Plus its traditional in fantasy at this point. Smile

    Regarding glasses, there actually were reading glasses at least by the mid 14th century if not the late 13th. Some scholars think the post-Alexandrian greeks may have developed lenses.


    Always enjoy your post, Smillian. Happy Since you usually know what you're talking about, I wanted to reference some dates before responding to your post! Laughing Laughing

    I admitted to you that I use glasses and tabacoo in my own game world. I'm only suggesting that we "tone down" the modernization of Greyhawk. Wink

    What we think of as a Magnifying Glass was first reported to be in "official" use by Seneca the Younger, tutor of Emperor Nero in the 1st century A.D. That's written. The first archaelogical evidence dates from 1021 A.D. Wink

    Salvino D'Armate (a distant "cousin" of Parduz! Happy ) is credited with inventing the first wearable eye glasses in 1284 A.D. Interestingly, what we know as firearms (guns) first appeared in the mid-1200's as well. Thus, the "modernization" of Greyhawk. Sad

    We each play our own game in our own way. I just like to play mine in a Conan-type era. Cool

    As for tabacco, as I said, it wasn't known in Europe, or anyplace else, until Columbus discovered America. But, you see, that's not all. No, sir.

    The same is true of Potatoes (nope, they're not Irish), Tomatoes (that's why "Caesar" had no tomatoes on his salad) and Cacao (Chocolate {nope, Chocolate isn't Swiss}). Shocked

    Now the Native Americans (think Flan here) used tabacco long before Columbus arrived, so, for the Suel and Oeridians to learn its use shortly after their arrival in the Flanaess would only be logical. Cool Dwarven contact with the Flan also applies here.

    But (please reference the above mentioned examples) I find every plant growing everywhere on Oerth. That's just not logical. Cacao, for example, will only grow in equatorial regions, no place else.

    All I'm saying is that we are associating Greyhawk with our modern world, i.e. modern transportation! Every thing doesn't grow everywhere, but we ship it everywhere. (Hey, I'm a Truck Driver, trust me! i.e. for you fellow Americans, toilet paper and papertowels come from only three States. You probably don't live in one of them. No trucks? Embarassed )

    Hyperbole: Cacao (chocolate) only grows in the Empire of Iuz. Why on earth would he share it with anyone? Chocolate would be very rare -- not to mention expensive -- in most places and even unheard of in some areas.

    Like I said, I just enjoy a Conan-type game, no more modern than William the Conqueror.

    But, please, by all means, make your Greyhawk as modern as you like. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 18, 2008
    Posts: 12
    From: Bologna, Italy

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:00 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Few -- very few -- of the Bricklayers I grew up with -- and know -- live in brick homes. Why? The work is too hard. They do it all day for pay and they come home tired. They're not coming home at night and doing it for free, even on their own homes. They just don't do it.

    I'll take this to a point for me Laughing
    Here you will not find a SINGLE house that's not made in brick, even the worst one. I'm always astonished when i see US wood houses (watching TV news, after the last hurricanes you've got we've seen a lot of your houses opened, and we all think the same: why you build that houses with that thin walls???).
    Back to our topic, why i claim this as a point to me? (obviously, jokingly)
    'Cause it show how things are different in different places, and so should be also in the Flanaess... i think.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:03 pm  

    Parduz wrote:
    I'll take this to a point for me Laughing Why you build that houses with that thin walls?.


    I wasn't really singling anyone out, Parduz, ole' buddy. I was just showing the unreasonableness of saying something like:

    "Hey! Three of the King's plumbers live on this street, so this street has plumbing!" That presumption is stretching the facts just a little bit. Confused

    Just because three plumbers live on that street does not mean that they've spent all their spare time installing plumbing on their street. Plumbing is their job, not their hobby. Wink

    Why, take us for example, whenever we're not working, we're on Canonfire! Laughing Laughing

    No matter where a person lives, they build with the cheapest materials, especially in today's economy. Wood is the cheapest thing to build with, here in the U.S.

    In Italy, Greece and other parts of the Mediterranean, many of your forests were denuded by the Roman Empire and pig farmers. Wait a minute! Pig farmers!? Shocked Yep! Happy

    Several archaelogical referrences point out that pig farming was a big industry in those areas centuries ago. And the pigs just loved acorns. Wink Acorns? Shocked Yep! You know, those seeds that Oak trees grow from? Happy

    Anyway, between the Romans' desire for their baths and the pigs' desire for acorns, the once great forest that your part of the world once enjoyed, are gone . . . comparitively speaking of course.

    So, for many centuries, brick was cheaper for you than it was/is for us! We've enjoyed plentiful wood since our founding. Though that could quickly change, of course. Sad

    See ya! Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 158
    From: Little Rock, Arkansas

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:23 pm  

    Chendl's broad boulevards are lined with continual light lanterns. The walls are held together with magical mortars creating protection from evil in key areas. Mages who can contribute to defense are eagerly wanted.

    Peacock nobility lazily float thier gondola among the opera house, scented gardens, casinos and gaming houses, expensive restaurants and overpriced taverns.

    The nobility clearly has a lot of money to spend, and it seems fair they would spend it on an opera house with programmed illusions; scented gardens with growth and flowering controlled by magic, magical games of chance at the casinos, restaurants where the temperature is always magically warm despite the frigid Furyondian winters, and taverns which magically sober you up as soon as you walk out the door.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:48 pm  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    The nobility clearly has a lot of money to spend


    The wealthy always get what they're willing to pay for. Wink

    Most magicians live secluded lives. Like anyone else, magicians "adventure" for what they can get out of it, not for what others get out of it.

    But, thanks to all your suggestions, I've recently offered the citizens of Dark Gate a little "continual light" for their main street too! Cool For a nominal fee, of course. Wink

    But I don't think they have the money for floating gondolas. Sad

    Well, never figured on getting rich that way anyhow. Laughing
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:23 pm  

    Remember this was how magic will be applied to the common people Smile

    Granted the elite will have more comfort and luxury; but not the commoners. The local village taverns capable of spells or common pig farmers sailing on the canals headed for a night of opera Laughing
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:52 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Remember this was how magic will be applied to the common people Smile


    Thank you Crag! Entirely correct! Happy

    That's why some 99.8% of all Taverns and Inns have large fireplaces! Because the common people get cold too! Laughing

    To be honest, it actually sounds to me like Chendl (if true) is becoming a "Forgotten Realms" setting. Confused As I recall, Oerth is not that magic "rich." Cool Admittedly, I have been given a few ideas for use of Continual Light spells and the like, for use around my Tower in Dark Gate, but I'll not let myself get carried away.

    Good hearing from you Crag! Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 158
    From: Little Rock, Arkansas

    Send private message
    Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:02 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Remember this was how magic will be applied to the common people


    The common people are a varied lot. Each one has an individual experience with magic.

    Opera House waiters bringing drinks to the Chendl nobility would see the illusory stage. Battle-heardened veterans of the Seige of Chendl witnessed King Belvor, High Priest Heldenster, and Master Elementalist Karzalin unleash a devastating array of magical might against the fiendish invaders.

    Hay farmers in the village of Wistborough have befriended a brownie which gives them protective charms. Gabberford's village priest of St. Cuthbert offers healing to any of his flock who need it. Wrixby's sugar-beet farmers have a magical plow which churns the soil at triple the normal speed. The pig-keepers of Pickleswort, however, have never seen anything but mud.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.54 Seconds