Hello there, everyone! I've been considering DMing in Greyhawk for quite some time, and I was really glad when I found out about Canonfire! It's an honor to join you, guys :)
I've played RPGs since forever (I was 8 or so when I played my first AD&D 2nd Ed. game... That was 15 years ago! Good times :) ), and I am a DM myself since I was 15 or so (I've always had an incredibly hard time finding DMs so I could play instead, so I took that responsibility upon me... And ended up liking it :) ). Even though my players always liked my campaigns and all, I always thought I was quite a lousy DM. After blowing up my last campaign world some 4 years ago (It was screwed up and inconsistent beyond repair), I started studying ways to be a better DM. Join that with the fact that I started attending to college, and you can probably guess I never was able to maintain a real campaign since then, only a few sparse, freelance adventures.
Well, that said, I came to the conclusion I should go back to the basics. I've always DMed my own worlds, with my own adventures. And that was terribly disorganized. I then decided I should try DMing in a pre-made world.
I first thought about Forgotten Realms, but actually never came up with a way to fit a story there: like someone said I think that in Wizards' forum, DMing in FR is hard because you always think you are interfering too much with the world's story. Either your players end up making too great a diffference, or no difference at all. Besides, I think FR is so fantastic that it ended up being no fantastic at all. Like someone said here, in the "WotC mines Greyhawk" topic, when a thing supposedly rare happens or appears all the time, it ends up being common and not interesting at the same time. Besides, I always had a feeling when I played there that my adventures came to be only because all those badass heroes were too busy doing something else, or because it was too easy a work for them to even bother doing it (or, like I always thought to myself at the time, not every super-hero is like Batman).
Then, I considered Dragonlance, but Krynn is too limited for my taste... It is a great background for novels, but I can't get myself to plan a nice campaign there.
After that, I DMed a few adventures in Dark Sun, but it was for fun only, I never considered making an actual campaign there.
Then, as of late, I've came to the conclusion that Greyhawk is probably a good choice for me. It is open enough for me to fit a nice story in it, and well defined enough that I won't get lost and feel that I'm being disorganized. Besides, it's a place where my players can feel that they make a difference, while the world still goes on without their interference elsewhere, or, in other worlds, it feels like a "REAL" world.
I've then decided to start studying the world itself. I've read the D&D Gazetteer (which doesn't make ANY justice to the world, truth be told) and just started reading the LGG, which seems like a nice book. As a 3e/3.5 DM, those were the most obvious choices, of course, but I have access to pretty much everything that was published for GH. And here's where the need of advice comes from:
What do you suggest me to read? I intend to read everything in time, but I want something to get started (like: read this to know current affairs, then read that to know how that came to be and consider reading this to know what probably will happen).
Also, where do you suggest me to start an adventure? I was considering Geoff, but that was simply because I'm from Brazil, and that was the region assigned to us (and pretty much most of the world) in Living Greyhawk, so that's the first region I've read about. I have a fear though: since it is a place ravaged by giants, I fear that my players will make a great impact a little too early in the game. Any other problematic but introductory lands you'd like to point out?
Lastly, if any senior DM would like to give some random advice (I understand that there are people here that play the game since it was first published!), that would be greatly appreciated too! Specially, I have a problem in that I give my players too much political influence and too little treasure, and I also underestimate distances (my players will end up crossing a continent and I won't take notice of it) so any advice that would help me balance that and fix this (I wanted to do a more "local" campaign) would be extremely nice :)
PS: Ehm, I've just noticed that I'm not exactly a newcomer to DMing business, so advice from "newbie" DMs would be greatly appreciated too: you could be newer to this business than me and still be a hell lot better :)
PS2: I'm not a native english speaker, as you could've inferred from the text, so if there's something inconsistent or incomprehensible, please, let me know!
PS3: I've just noticed that this came out MUCH bigger than I expected! Sorry for it, guys!
Last edited by Larkas on Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Well, that said, I came to the conclusion I should go back to the basics. I then decided I should try DMing in a pre-made world.
I've came to the conclusion that Greyhawk is probably a good choice for me. It is open enough for me to fit a nice story in it, and well defined enough that I won't get lost and feel that I'm being disorganized.
I've then decided to start studying the world itself. I've read the D&D Gazetteer (which doesn't make ANY justice to the world, truth be told) and just started reading the LGG, which seems like a nice book.
What do you suggest me to read? I intend to read everything in time, but I want something to get started (like: read this to know current affairs, then read that to know how that came to be and consider reading this to know what probably will happen).
Also, where do you suggest me to start an adventure?
Welcome to Canonfire! Larkas. Your post "sounds" just fine. I've been playing since the late 1970's.
The LGG is a good place to get the current information on the nations and politics of Oerth (the World of Greyahwk); Who likes who, who's at war or peace, etc.
For a "ready made" game: Many like the "Temple of Elemental Evil" (T1-4). Or they start with "Village of Hommlet" (T-1). ToEE includes the "Village of Hommlet," so ToEE would be your best buy. You can find them at www.Paizo.com and they are fairly inexpensive.
"Against the Giants" is also a favorite and includes several combined games. This game takes place in Geoff and Sterich, your "home" country!
"Against the Giants" and "Temple of Elemental Evil" combined offer about 7 different games, so they're plenty to keep you and your players busy for awhile.
And there are plenty of folks here that will tell you more.
Thanks a lot for the warm welcome, Mystic! I feel like a real newcomer here, I was part of the "second generation" RPGamers down here in Brazil, with the first generation being really small. Luckily, my older brother was part of the latter, which set base for my own introduction. Nowadays, EVERYONE plays here (and I mean EVERYONE, even people who usually make fun of "nerdic" stuff), but I'm still one of the few DMs around, so it's kinda new to me being... New :)
Nice! I'll keep on reading LGG then! It really seems like a solid source, I've read a bit already.
About the adventures, thanks a lot for the advice, specially for the link to Paizo! I didn't know they sold PDFs, that's so practical! I'll order them and start reading right away!
Nowadays, EVERYONE plays here (and I mean EVERYONE, even people who usually make fun of "nerdic" stuff), but I'm still one of the few DMs around, so it's kinda new to me being... New :)
That's good to hear!
It has slowed down -- just a little -- here in the U.S., but that's because of computer games. Many parents here buy computers for their kids, even when they're still quite young.
A lot of us here on Canonfire! have gotten into writing. Anyone can submit an article to Canonfire! -- Yep, you too! And we enjoy hearing about how other people's games are progressing, so keep good track of the game you'll be DMing and keep us posted on how things go.
And remember, it you feel that you're "stuck," just give us all a call. There are plenty of people who would be happy to advise you on how to get out of your predicament.
It's funny to see about 3 people (me included) being new around here and starting a campaign in roughly the same region (or at least, receiving advice pointing in the same direction).
Being new here myself there's not much to say, except that I can only underline what Mystic-Scholar said, "Against the Giants" looks like a good place to start; I set my early campaign in the bordermarks near Geoff and Sterich too, because there's a lot going on, both "normal" countries nearby, and a conquered wilderness, which tends to spark up a player's imagination with plans on how to face those more dangerous lands when more experienced.
The area around northern Keoland seemed like a good place to start for me, so you can "play on time" regarding the Greyhawk Wars and more of the political feuds taking place, without being totally behind the bush. For me, this was somewhat important, because I like to get the "facts" right (or, if I decide to change it, know what exactly and why I am changing it, which is only possible if I'm thoroughly familiar with something), and maybe you're taking a similar approach.
With the distances - find one of the many available hex grid maps and compare the distance of a hex with the distance on a map of your homecountry, maybe a route between two cities that you frequently travel. That's nowhere near to compare to fantasy-style traveling (from foot to horseback to teleport), but at least for me it works in establishing a basic feeling of distance.
(On the other hand, there's nothing wrong in crossing a whole continent.)
Beautiful thing about the Flanaess btw, there are maps giving latitudes, which is great to compare Oerth and Earth for size relation. (And while doing so, you may realize that the Flanaess' general rough shape might be very familiar, heh.)
However, if you give your players political power, it sounds like a good thing to "tie them down" with, doesn't it? In my experience, the more players care and are responsible for a certain area, the more they want to feel comfortable there, learn details, and not stray too far in case something happens to their precious "home bases". So - give them reason to stick around homebase. Maybe you can have them help stabilize a half abandoned settlement that lies on the border of the Lost Lands, and then have them take care it doesn't get overrun by marauders, or the giants (or who/whatever).
Last edited by Remainaery on Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
As my "signature" shows, I'm interested in the Dark Gate area of the Yeomanry, myself. Though not from the perspective of "protecting" Dark Gate.
There are some old story lines from (what I call) the "original" Greyhawk game play that I've felt were never sufficiently developed and I've chosen to work on that aspect.
Still, several recent posts have given me the "idea" of improving the lives of the citizenry of Dark Gate, via a little cheap magic. Maybe I could throw in a little "protection" as well. I'll be thinking about it.
Hello Larkas, be very welcome here!
i will try to write here in english the best i can, but we can talk in PM, email or MSN, as im from Porto Alegre ;)
i think the first generation you talked about was the "Geração Xerox" (photocopy generation), right?
if so, im second too, with d&d from Grow, 2ed from Abril and so.
i started DMing home brew world, as many here, then i passed to FR (the first translated here) then fall in love with Dragonlance. Then i played almost all TSR worlds for AD&D, and finaly got to my new passion: Greyhawk
DMed for 17 years or so, and have played just a little. But as a DM, i must say that i loved to run T1 Village of Hommlet: simple, yet so rich!
i think in the end, you shold choose the year to play first, and that decision should come with a little knowledge about the events in various years.
Lots of people here like to start around 576 or so, i think because of such great adventures we have around this time.
Being new here myself there's not much to say, except that I can only underline what Mystic-Scholar said, "Against the Giants" looks like a good place to start; I set my early campaign in the bordermarks near Geoff and Sterich too, because there's a lot going on, both "normal" countries nearby, and a conquered wilderness, which tends to spark up a player's imagination with plans on how to face those more dangerous lands when more experienced.
Hmmmm, indeed! I was reading the "Against the Giants" storyline, and it seems pretty solid. Plus, it connects with a lot of adventures up ahead, culminating with the defeat of Lolth, which I'm very curious about! Might make a good campaign for non-old timers :)
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For me, this was somewhat important, because I like to get the "facts" right (or, if I decide to change it, know what exactly and why I am changing it, which is only possible if I'm thoroughly familiar with something), and maybe you're taking a similar approach.
Exactly. I like to know what I'm changing and why, and what could come out of a change, addition or removal.
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With the distances - find one of the many available hex grid maps and compare the distance of a hex with the distance on a map of your homecountry, maybe a route between two cities that you frequently travel. That's nowhere near to compare to fantasy-style traveling (from foot to horseback to teleport), but at least for me it works in establishing a basic feeling of distance.
I always tried to do that, but never got it quite right. I'm used to having 600km (roughly 375 miles) trips taking 5, 6 hours at most, not 15 days or more. Since that's the case, I don't know what's a reasonable distance between villages (in days, not miles/km), and if that particular part of the road should or should not have an Inn for weary travelers, or if there should only be places where people usually camp. You see, it's a very complex matter for me :/ (Which leads me to a related question: when traveling highways or roads, do people usually sleep in roadside Inns or villages, or do they simply set up camp and sleep the best way they can?)
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(And while doing so, you may realize that the Flanaess' general rough shape might be very familiar, heh.)
I was amused when I noticed it was flipped and warped Europe! Too bad the same doesn't hold true to the rest of the world, it would be a neat counterbalance to Earth in Gygax's group of 5 worlds!
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However, if you give your players political power, it sounds like a good thing to "tie them down" with, doesn't it? In my experience, the more players care and are responsible for a certain area, the more they want to feel comfortable there, learn details, and not stray too far in case something happens to their precious "home bases". So - give them reason to stick around homebase. Maybe you can have them help stabilize a half abandoned settlement that lies on the border of the Lost Lands, and then have them take care it doesn't get overrun by marauders, or the giants (or who/whatever).
That is a VERY nice idea! Thanks a lot for pointing it out, Remainaery, I'll try playing with it!
And Mystic, keep us updated about that!
Wow! A fellow Brazilian! I feel more at home now! Thanks for the welcome, rossik!
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i think the first generation you talked about was the "Geração Xerox" (photocopy generation), right?
if so, im second too, with d&d from Grow, 2ed from Abril and so.
Yep! My AD&D 2nd Ed. was published by Abril! I even have First Quest!
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DMed for 17 years or so, and have played just a little. But as a DM, i must say that i loved to run T1 Village of Hommlet: simple, yet so rich!
Wow, this Temple of Elemental Evil really IS a cherished classic, huh? I'm glad I'll be DMing it!
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Lots of people here like to start around 576 or so, i think because of such great adventures we have around this time.
Hmmmm, so far I didn't really take that into consideration, I was going to place my game at 591 and that was that. I'll play with that idea as soon as I get more familiar with the world's history!
I always tried to do that, but never got it quite right. I'm used to having 600km (roughly 375 miles) trips taking 5, 6 hours at most, not 15 days or more. Since that's the case, I don't know what's a reasonable distance between villages (in days, not miles/km), and if that particular part of the road should or should not have an Inn for weary travelers, or if there should only be places where people usually camp. You see, it's a very complex matter for me :/ (Which leads me to a related question: when traveling highways or roads, do people usually sleep in roadside Inns or villages, or do they simply set up camp and sleep the best way they can?)
I'm no expert, but on the "big" and very frequently traveled roads, you may find a road inn or a small post within a day's reach, but I don't think this would go beyond the distance between two big cities which are about a week away from each other.
This is the reason why people used to travel in groups a lot (safety in numbers), or used a wagon (if wealthy enough to own/rent one). The poor traveler who had to walk on foot and alone had often no other choice but to set up camp near the road and spent the night in the middle of nowhere.
Maybe a usual "road" (the kind that at least allows wagons to travel on) has a large inn somewhere about the middle inbetween two travel destinations, but that's about it. Most people don't travel more than up to the 3 days it might take to reach the next town's market, and everything beyond that might be a case for carawan-trade&travel, and those are somewhat "selfsustaining" inbetween stops.
So, basically, if a road or highway connects two important places (anything that qualifies as a town or city upwards counts) and thus may see lot of regular travel may feature quite a number of Inns or thorps with a guesthouse, but everywhere else: Most likely not.
Of course, villages and thorps that lie next to a road that sees at least a bit of weekly travel now and then features an Inn, and many other settlements may provide "lodgin" for a little coin (even when it's just a barn) when the people are trusty enough should travelers ask for a place to spend the night. Naturally though, a lot of settlers and villagers tend to be careful around people covered in mud and dust and wearing an assortement of weapons, heh.
But well, for your imagination, try to sit down, close your eyes, and imagine those 5 hours trips in "Slow Motion" (or rather, walking speed) - all the endless woods, mountains, plains, deserts, or whatever you come by when travelling, that just go zoom-n-byebye during train or car trips. At least this lets it sink in how vast the world can be. Might help to ask your players to do the same.
However, for how far to get in a day, in case you use AD&D, maybe 3rd Editions overland movement tables come in handy (don't remember if they were somewhere in the AD&D player's handbook or dmg) : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#overlandMovement
As far as I can tell, those seem to be pretty "accurate and realistic", though really, if a trip takes several days, as a DM, you might as well assume it takes 1 or 2 more, because of dallying the one day, roadblock/obstacles on the other, bad weather (muddy road, or taking cover to avoid hail on the head) and what else may happen. As with most things that aren't as "decimal" as many things are in this era, time and distance can be so relative if you have shoddy maps, no street signs around every turn, et cetera,
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I was amused when I noticed it was flipped and warped Europe! Too bad the same doesn't hold true to the rest of the world, it would be a neat counterbalance to Earth in Gygax's group of 5 worlds!
Haha, then we don't see the same thing actually; I found the Flanaess to have the same basic shape as the northern American continent, skewed and distorted a little here and there, and expanded beyond the Rocky Mountains. The Nyr Dyv even reminds me ot the Lake Superior, both in shape and location on the land mass. Cover up the Sea of Garneat and the Azure Sea will follow the shape of the Gulf of Mexico, Icy Bay looks a lot like Hudson Bay, etc. (Any Americans here who might agree? Maybe this is just my imagination, but tracing around the outlines of real world maps is a popular method to get a reasonably sized fantasy world continent, heh)
The Thillonrian Peninsula is reminiscent of the Scandinavian Peninsula. And the Azure Sea does resemble the Gulf of Mexico. But I believe that the Flanaess does not resemble either continent in its entirety.
Its more probably a compilation of the two. A little of this one, a little of that one.
I'm no expert, but on the "big" and very frequently traveled roads, you may find a road inn or a small post within a day's reach, but I don't think this would go beyond the distance between two big cities which are about a week away from each other.
Hmmm, indeed, I never thought that way! You'd probably see Inns all the way from Dyvers to Greyhawk, but almost none between Red Falls and Stringem (I dunno, maybe you would, I just picked random cities in te map).
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This is the reason why people used to travel in groups a lot (safety in numbers), or used a wagon (if wealthy enough to own/rent one). The poor traveler who had to walk on foot and alone had often no other choice but to set up camp near the road and spent the night in the middle of nowhere.
Maybe a usual "road" (the kind that at least allows wagons to travel on) has a large inn somewhere about the middle inbetween two travel destinations, but that's about it. Most people don't travel more than up to the 3 days it might take to reach the next town's market, and everything beyond that might be a case for carawan-trade&travel, and those are somewhat "selfsustaining" inbetween stops.
Wow, that makes a LOT of sense! Indeed, apart from real world medieval fairs that used to cross Europe, what little commerce was made, after the rebirth of coined money, was between close cities or only using naval support! Basically, the common people didn't even get away from their home town all their lives!
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So, basically, if a road or highway connects two important places (anything that qualifies as a town or city upwards counts) and thus may see lot of regular travel may feature quite a number of Inns or thorps with a guesthouse, but everywhere else: Most likely not.
Of course, villages and thorps that lie next to a road that sees at least a bit of weekly travel now and then features an Inn, and many other settlements may provide "lodgin" for a little coin (even when it's just a barn) when the people are trusty enough should travelers ask for a place to spend the night. Naturally though, a lot of settlers and villagers tend to be careful around people covered in mud and dust and wearing an assortement of weapons, heh.
Hahahaha, indeed! That's a usually an under-explored side of things: people rarely go about their business fully armed and prepared for a rain of knives! That would inclusively encourage people to use "civilian" clothes when staying for an extended period in big cities, for example, keeping a dagger handy, at most!
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But well, for your imagination, try to sit down, close your eyes, and imagine those 5 hours trips in "Slow Motion" (or rather, walking speed) - all the endless woods, mountains, plains, deserts, or whatever you come by when travelling, that just go zoom-n-byebye during train or car trips. At least this lets it sink in how vast the world can be. Might help to ask your players to do the same.
However, for how far to get in a day, in case you use AD&D, maybe 3rd Editions overland movement tables come in handy (don't remember if they were somewhere in the AD&D player's handbook or dmg) : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#overlandMovement
As far as I can tell, those seem to be pretty "accurate and realistic", though really, if a trip takes several days, as a DM, you might as well assume it takes 1 or 2 more, because of dallying the one day, roadblock/obstacles on the other, bad weather (muddy road, or taking cover to avoid hail on the head) and what else may happen. As with most things that aren't as "decimal" as many things are in this era, time and distance can be so relative if you have shoddy maps, no street signs around every turn, et cetera,
Thanks a lot for this big piece of advice, Remainaery! It has really enlightened me, and imagining the "slow-motion" trip indeed worked! And thanks a lot for the reference too! It's very interesting that there's speed for loaded horses and other mounts! That would encourage people to carry only what they really need in extended travels!
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Haha, then we don't see the same thing actually; I found the Flanaess to have the same basic shape as the northern American continent, skewed and distorted a little here and there, and expanded beyond the Rocky Mountains. The Nyr Dyv even reminds me ot the Lake Superior, both in shape and location on the land mass. Cover up the Sea of Garneat and the Azure Sea will follow the shape of the Gulf of Mexico, Icy Bay looks a lot like Hudson Bay, etc. (Any Americans here who might agree? Maybe this is just my imagination, but tracing around the outlines of real world maps is a popular method to get a reasonably sized fantasy world continent, heh)
I didn't notice that, it really reminds one of the Gulf of Mexico! But I think that it's as Mystic said, just a mix'n'match of both :)
You'd probably see Inns all the way from Dyvers to Greyhawk, but almost none between Red Falls and Stringem. . . . Indeed, apart from real world medieval fairs that used to cross Europe, what little commerce was made, after the rebirth of coined money, was between close cities or only using naval support! Basically, the common people didn't even get away from their home town all their lives!
Actually, the road from Greyhawk to Divers is not considered to be overly populated with Inns. Its partly wilderness and considered a dangerous trip.
If you go to the Greyhawk Discussion forum and read the post "How populated is the realm?" on the first page you can read my 3rd post in which I quote from the book "1066: The Year of the Conquest" which gives a very good picture of how village life was and how populated England was, at the time of William the Conqueror.
Better listen to Mystic, apparently he spent much more thought on that one than me, hehe.
I guess it's safe to assume though that really NO place is "full of" anything, especially since Greyhawk does appear to be in feeling and tone more like the early middle-ages, not the late middle-ages/near mercantile exploration & colonial period (times change a lot). Then again, Rule Zero as a DM, when you need something, it better be there - or not. I guess since the World of Greyhawk is not particulary peaceful, tradenetworks would be a lot less developed. It's really a picky thing, I guess one could write books full worth of observation on that particular thing alone.
(Just while speaking about Dyvers to Greyhawk, I think the naval route might be preferable (as long as any trip on the Nyr Dyv can be considered "preferable") in that case. Using the waterway by coast-hugging is, to a degree, safer than roads that cross all kinds of terrain, obstacles and hindrances. That's a newbie-guess though, just a generalization of my not very vast knowledge in archaic logistics. Roughly estimating from the old hex map, land route between Dyvers and Greyhawk would be longer than a week traveltime. Thumbwise, that would be 5 days or so, airline. Terrain not considered, it would most likely take longer - my guess, at least.)
Well, at least adventurers are usually not afraid of camping out in the wild, heh. So, don't sweat it too much. Just beware of trolls. Always be wary of trolls. And basically of anything else, too. You never know what comes next!
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Thanks a lot for this big piece of advice, Remainaery! It has really enlightened me, and imagining the "slow-motion" trip indeed worked! And thanks a lot for the reference too! It's very interesting that there's speed for loaded horses and other mounts! That would encourage people to carry only what they really need in extended travels!
Glad to contribute something helpful though. Usually players hate to keep track of how much to carry and strategical movement though, but if you want it somewhat accurate, those tables do help, heh.
Yep.
Oh, and as a last note on that Flanaess-looks-roughly-like-Northern-Amercia-to-me-thingy, I want to believe! Ask Mulder and Scully. It's all a conspiracy! (did I mention I hate cylindrical and spherical projection on maps? All that perceptual warping screws with my mind. I'm still convinced though.)
Alright, alright, I'll shut up now. I was just proud of my observation *sniff* Nobody shatter my illusions, please.
Just while speaking about Dyvers to Greyhawk, I think the naval route might be preferable (as long as any trip on the Nyr Dyv can be considered "preferable") in that case. Using the waterway by coast-hugging is, to a degree, safer than roads that cross all kinds of terrain, obstacles and hindrances. That's a newbie-guess though . . .
Oh, and as a last note on that Flanaess-looks-roughly-like-Northern-Amercia-to-me-thingy . . .Alright, alright, I'll shut up now. I was just proud of my observation *sniff* Nobody shatter my illusions, please.
No intention of shattering your "illusions," my friend.
And you're right about the water travel. Its considered safer and faster and they do 'hug the coast.' The Nyr Dyv is known to be filled with monsters, but the navies of Greyhawk, Furyondy and Dyvers do their best to keep such critters away.
The land route has its problems with brigands, Orcs, Ogres and Gnolls from Blackthorn (an evil demi-human enclave inside the Gnarley Forest). Orcs from the Pomarj also use the Gnarley Forest as a sort of "highway" -- for traveling un-noticed -- and as means of infiltrating the domains of Greyhawk and Dyvers.
The Thillonrian Peninsula is reminiscent of the Scandinavian Peninsula. And the Azure Sea does resemble the Gulf of Mexico. But I believe that the Flanaess does not resemble either continent in its entirety.
Its more probably a compilation of the two. A little of this one, a little of that one.
You asked for an American's opinion, here's one.
Must my thoughts.
Other people know more about it than I do but Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign used a map of North America, placing the fictional realms and cities in various places. I believe Greyhawk was where Chicago is. Some of that probably leaked into the map of Greyhawk that we all know now.
Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign used a map of North America, placing the fictional realms and cities in various places. I believe Greyhawk was where Chicago is.
Well! Look who descended from Mt. Olympus, err, I mean Olympia!
Smillian! Where the heck have you been? We started this conversation two days ago!
Always good to "hear" from you, Smillian!
I believe that I've "heard" that before, but I'm not sure where. I can see resemblances from both continents, myself. North Amercia could easily have formed the basis of the original map, but I believe its "moved on" from there.
No matter how I "flip" North America though, the Thillonrian still looks more like Scandinavia than anything else.
HAH! So I was right! I'm the king of the world! *does silly victory dance*
Look! Look! I told you!
(You don't need to "flip" anything! Just squeeze and stretch/stunch a little here and there. Of course, you might still be right about Scandinavia. It's surely a little this, a little that after all.)
Well I actually didn't want to dwell any further on that in order to not stray from the topic, BUT I guess this might be helpful to you, Larkas.
I find it beneficial to compare fantasy world maps with nonfictional ones, because it gives further insight into that size-relation-matter. When I made that map for my home campaign setting once, I roughly traced over a map of central Europe and added some this and that so it was easier to have sort of "correct" proportions and distances without doing a lot of math and "real" cartography.
So, when working with maps of the Flanaess, I guess it's not a bad idea to grab some real world atlas to expand your horizon and visualization capabilities. Always helps me a lot.
On a side note, I think it's great that there are maps of Oerth featuring latitudes. At least one world where I can be rather sure where to find the equator, haha.
Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign used a map of North America, placing the fictional realms and cities in various places. I believe Greyhawk was where Chicago is.
Well! Look who descended from Mt. Olympus, err, I mean Olympia!
Smillian! Where the heck have you been? We started this conversation two days ago!
Always good to "hear" from you, Smillian!
I believe that I've "heard" that before, but I'm not sure where. I can see resemblances from both continents, myself. North Amercia could easily have formed the basis of the original map, but I believe its "moved on" from there.
No matter how I "flip" North America though, the Thillonrian still looks more like Scandinavia than anything else.
What does it look like to you?
Hey, Mt. Olympus isn't too far away from Olympia... well, at least OUR Mt. Olympus isn't, although I need much more climbing experience under my belt before I can get to the top and then "descend" from it.
Speaking of snow-covered peaks, yeah, there is a definite Scandinavian vibe to Thillonria, besides all the barbarian Suel. I would most def agree with your assessment that the map "moved on" from N. America. If I had to say what the Oerik continent looks like closest to me it would be a flipped Eurasia, although that only goes so far.
Since the T1-4 module mentions how Gygax's own campaign relates to the published material:
The situation and the surroundings have been altered because of the actual experiences of these participants, although the clock has been turned back to give you and your group of players an opportunity to make history of your own.
This made me think that the year to use if starting a campaign with T1 would be 578.
If I were a strict 2nd Edition gamer, then I'd feel incentive to start with the WG8 material. I'm not familiar with what it contains but a search I did showed it's for various levels. One of the links above with a timeline shows WG8 notes around different years. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons_modules#W page lists the levels of play for the following WG modules as:
WG8 Fate of Istus Various 1989 has 2nd edition logo
WG9 Gargoyle 1–4 Dave Collins Skip Williams 1989 2nd edition
WG10 Child's Play 13–15 Jean Rabe Skip Williams 1989 2nd edition
WG11 Puppets 1–3 Vince Garcia Bruce Rabe 1989 2nd edition
WG12 Vale of the Mage 7–9 Jean Rabe 1989 2nd edition
WGA4 Vecna Lives! 12–15 David Cook 1990
.
.
.
In fact, I wonder if the 579 reference to "City of Greyhawk reforms its coinage system" is a reference to a 2nd Edition change from 1st Edition. If so, then it would appear that TSR was placing the start of 2nd Edition's timeline at 579.
I woke up this morning thinking about the maps. When I flip the map with Paint, it seems that the City of Greyhawk is somewhat analogous to Istanbul. I was reading a map thread where people where thinking of using Greenwich for placing Greyhawk on a globe. In the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting (boxed set), the Glossography's page 18 shows latitude lines. Latitude-wise, Istanbul and the City of Greyhawk are only about 5 degrees away whereas London would be 15 degrees away. Istanbul/Constantinople makes sense as an analogous location too since it was the "gateway" between "east and "west."
"If the Earth were a single state, Istanbul would be its capital.”
—Napoleon Bonaparte
...But I'm thinking instead of flipping a modern map, the map makers might have used a map like that was used for Mystara (that is based on Pangaea or Gondwana. Check out this link for a map with less continents than we now have on Earth:
I woke up this morning thinking about the maps. When I flip the map with Paint, it seems that the City of Greyhawk is somewhat analogous to Istanbul. . . Latitude-wise, Istanbul and the City of Greyhawk are only about 5 degrees away whereas London would be 15 degrees away. Istanbul/Constantinople makes sense as an analogous location too since it was the "gateway" between "east and "west."
The Nyr Dyv in place of the Black Sea and the Sea of Gearnat in place of the Mediterranean. Greyhawk's merchantile and political situation would be almost exactly that of Istanbul. I like it! Hey Mikey!
Thanks. Part of what got me thinking about the layout of the planet as a globe at the continent level is how might Aquaria fit in logically. The Greyhawk box set says there are four large continents. Well, to me that implies there could could be small continents and maybe Aquaria would fit opposite Greyhawk. But I haven't found any maps of Aquaria and neither did my investigation pan out on a flipped Earth map even from Earth's past. With a modern toy-blow-up globe my son got as a ball to play with, the other side of the Earth from Istanbul is pretty much smack-dab in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with nothing around. On my National Geographic map, those coordinates are between French Polynesia and Easter Island. But if you don't care to be exact, I guess one way to make it fit would be to condsider French Polynesia as close enough and pretent (this is pretend after all) that Aquaria is a raised up French Polynesia on the "flip side."
See, I'm also thinking about getting a cheap globe so I can keep the latitude and longetude lines but re-paint the rest based on either a flipped Earth map or what I find in the boxed set so I can deal with the distortion (globe vs. flat map). I was hoping I could find evidence to use a flipped Earth map because then I would know what the other continents would look like--islands, oceans, all of it. Maybe I'll get two just so I can compare.
...I still want an astrolabe for Oerth I can reference on-line like:
I've embarked upon map making, myself. I'm currently working on some layouts of Inns and other type establishments and hope to do a map of the immediate area of Dark Gate and Westburn as well.
Anna, the Old Faith's "Goddess of Geography and Maps," is a big encouragement. She claims that Greyhawk needs more map makers. (Actually, she said any dummy could do it, so, I guess I qualify! )
Soon as I pick-up some better software (this week) and get my projects "fine tuned," I'll be posting them.
From another thread I was reading about http://www.sodabob.com/roleplay/dnd/Maps/files/tsroerth.gif. I couldn't tell before where/how the map of Greyhawk fits into it, but tonight I see (it's in the upper-right, unmarked). There goes my flipped Earth-map idea somewhat.
There seems to be an awful lot of land on this planet since a flat map of a planet will distort at the polar regions in a way that makes it look like there is more land there than there is. So this map of Oerth must have huge land masses to the point that the water to land ratio looks different than Earth's which would make Earth much like a desert...see where I'm going...unless there is some magic fudge factor, logically either we're missing a whole bunch of ocean or the map is distorting the amount of land there ought to be. In any case, I'll see if I can wrap a piece of paper around my toy globe and take a picture of it!
I used Paint to print out the tsroerth.gif on four sheets of paper. I cut out the white margins and taped it onto a globe-ball my wife got for our infant son. Interestingly enough, the north-south distances seem to fit kinda close while the equalator distance is too short by a quarter of the distance.
So if the map were printed bigger to get around the equator, then the maps would be too tall for the polar areas. Even if I should be shrinking it down a little bit to make Polaria bigger and the same at the north pole, then I'd be missing even more than a quarter of mapped area around the equator. Maybe that's where all the water would go to support an Earth-like ratio of 3:1 land to water ratio.
I did a search for images of "Abeir-Toril" (or should I call it Toril?) and those maps are basically distorted maps of Earth. Africa looks like it was probably moved to the side to make room for a bunch of islands. Anyway, that map should contain what I would think would be enough water.
Is Gary Holian posting here? I tried the feedback form and it didn't work for me. I didn't see an e-mail address to use for him. Wikipedia says that he runs this site.
Gary Holian did some work already on mapping Oerth as a globe from the Oerth Journal (#3 & #4).
Hmmm, that map you're using isn't looking quite right comparing to the one I used for referencing some time ago... I will look right now if I can find it again in the net.
EDIT: Hmmmm, I can't seem to find it... Maybe I just imagined seeing it, and was actually thinking of the small map at the lower left of the big Flanaess map from LGG (found here). Anyways, it looked just like that. As you can see, it's very different from that one you're using. I found it to be really remarkable because the northern polar continent look just like Antarctica on a full Mercator projection map.
I did find the following maps in my search though. They are apparently fan made, but conform really nicely to the little map. I dunno about the southern polar continent, though. I've read about it, but it doesn't appear in the said little map. Maybe it was omitted because it is too far to the south, or just politically irrelevant (something analogous to Antarctica: it isn't shown in many maps). Anyways, it really does exist. The author could've left some references, though. They can be found here and here.
Is Gary Holian posting here? I tried the feedback form and it didn't work for me. I didn't see an e-mail address to use for him. Wikipedia says that he runs this site.
Gary does run the site, but he posts intermittently. Try catching Gary on Thursday nights at GREYchat where you will usually find him lurking. See the links in the left sidebar for directions on how to join in.
For you cartographers:
your computer can do that work for you: let it wrap your maps around the globe, it is better than wrapping paper on a globe :D
This is done using Celestia, an open source "galaxy" simulator.
If you download and install it, you can build a new solar system and, just by editing a text file, you can map your own planet.
It is a very simple thing, but i can help you if you want.
What you need is just a map of Oerth (mapping only a portion of a planet is a bit more complex, but feasible anyway).
First, I'd like to say that you used my all-time favorite RPG map for your comparison. I spent way too much time learning about ancient civilizations for my own Oerth by wondering why those movements went the way they did and not in other directions, or at least had arrows pointing away from the map.
Second, I'd like to share a smile and note that many DMs have, over the years, grabbed any available map of some place and said "This will do nicely". It would justify all of my faith in the creators of the game if Gary Gygax exactly that with the Flanaess.
In my DM'ing days, I've stolen many maps printed on diner placemats to serve as the map of some village or city in my games.
Jamestown and Yorktown were also useful, and I procured maps from those places during the same trip.
Colonial Boston is another excellent map that had too neat of a layout to pass up. Though the example posted is nowhere near as nice as the tourist guide map I found.
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/guides/maps/boston.gif
It talks about the pros and cons with including Aquaria or Gonduria. It says, "we know that at the latitude of the central Flanaess it’s at least 1000 leagues wide, and it would be very difficult to fit in anything other than some islands between there and the west coast of Oerik." I'm not familiar with that software program so I think it would be cool to mess with the latitudes and see what effect it has on room for Aquaria between the Titanicum and Solnor oceans.
The page also brings up the difference between this map and the Living Greyhawk map which I didn't know about.
Parduz, my brain couldn't see it before but tonight I do. As soon as I saw recognized the flip-flopped Florida, the rest made sense.
I still think the Flaness is a flipped Europe with the City of Greyhawk about where Istanbul is. It'd be interesting to find out the map maker how she came up with her map. Was it from Gygax' input or her own creative initiative.
Is that Celestia easy to use? In a quick look up on-line, I didn't see anything in the Celestia docs that pointed to where I can put my own map in like you did. Did you use Earth or where you able to size your Oerth per the Glossography? Did you use the Dragon magazine's Oerth to build that picture? I'm wondering, if you did, how small would Polaria get? How small would Hyperboria get? Would there be Earth-like amounts of water like your picture implies? How did you deterimine the longitude?
Can you also change the system so Oerth is the middle and Oerth's sun orbits around Oerth?
...All of a sudden I sound like I'm playing Twenty Questions.
Also, I got to thinking about orbits and that second moon that Oerth has. I haven't read if it is inside or outside the orbit of Luna but we should be able to figure it out since faster orbiting bodies are closer than slower orbiting bodies. There is a link which should allow someone to calculate the distance Celene is from Oerth:
I was also thinking that if Oerth has a geosystem (instead of a solar system) then Oerth's sun would have to be smaller than ours. If so, then wouldn't it give less light, unless it was brighter...so in the sky it would appear smaller than ours does even if it cast the same amount of light.
I'm assuming that Luna orbits the same distance from Oerth as our Moon does from Earth. I'm also still assuming that Oerth's sun will be the same distance from Oerth as our Sun and Earth. Are those the only planets in the geosystem?
I read that Frank Mentzer made his Oerth be Ceti Tau...the links is:
I still think the Flaness is a flipped Europe with the City of Greyhawk about where Istanbul is. It'd be interesting to find out the map maker how she came up with her map. Was it from Gygax' input or her own creative initiative.
Gary drew the maps, and then Darlene rendered them for publication, based on comments EGG made in "To Forge a Fantasy World: Greyhawk's Creation" (in Horsemen of the Apocalypse). _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
PSmedger, that's pretty much what I was looking for. Those land masses look massive on your flat map.
grodog, I haven't read that article. Does EGG mention how he came up with his map for Oerth or maybe it was just one continent with Greyhawk in it? I remember reading how EGG scoffed at the Dragon magazine's Oerth but so far that's all we've had to go by if we didn't want to make up our own Oerth continents.
Fascinating discussion. I am looking to get back into D&D and was thinking about Greyhawk.
I'm looking at a world with a slightly earlier technological level say equivalent to circa 1000AD and looking at how the various cultures compare with medieval earth cultures.
This leads me to one question:
Does anyone have any idea how large the Flanaess is in sq miles? How does that compare to Europe?
OJ3 and 4 talk about the size of Oerik and OJ3 compares that to RW continents.
Specifically the Flaneass, I don't know. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Roughly, I've thought about the Flannaess as being about the size as Europe, probably a bit larger because the Oerth is a little larger than the Earth. If you like the map with the longetude, you should be able to calculate for yourself...to me it looks like the Azure sea takes up about 40 degrees of longetude and you know how much latitude it takes up from the Glossography...which I don't have in front of me because my wife and I are painting in this room...but from the same map PSmedger provided it looks about 45 to 50 degrees of latitude. How does that compare with Earth?
Anyone still have the flipped map from page 1? I emailed Remainaery about it, but it doesn't look like they're around regularly.... _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Anyone still have the flipped map from page 1? I emailed Remainaery about it, but it doesn't look like they're around regularly....
I went looking for this thread again the other day, and dug p Remainaery's reply, too:
Quote:
I'm sorry, that file doesn't exist anymore on my PC. I never saved it anywhere permanently since it was more or less a "joke" and a quick thing I did when working on some maps. I must have deleted it by accident when changing the folder structure in my pb-account, since I can't find it there anymore either.
Maybe I'll get to reconstruct it some time (it's not that a lot of effort went into it) - I never thought anyone would want to keep that.
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
Your post "sounds" just fine. I've been playing since the late 1970's.
of improving the lives of the citizenry of Dark Gate, via a little 
.
