So my players went through the Secret of Salt Marsh, and due to a variety of factors (mostly due to me throwing a lot at them during it), I've managed to get them up to 3rd level. They managed to not kill the Lizardmen, while stopping the smugglers. They've taken over the mansion, and even managed to get their own house goblin to help with repairs (corrective psychology with charm and a goliath who can crush his head are very effective when done right).
So I am starting the second arc, and I am taking the story off in its own direction, taking it from a low level adventure arc to a multi-tier campaign. I've got a few ideas I just wanted to share and if you have feedback, please feel free. :)
This is all narative, though it is in the nature of the characters so far:
The town imprisoned the lizardmen, immediately. The party, knowing that the lizardmen are not a threat, have been helping with the questioning of the lizardmen, and keeping the more lizardman hating factions from torturing or killing them. It helps that they have three low ranked nobles in the party, as well as being the ones who single handedly took out the ship. They are the darlings of the city right now, and even though there are folks who do not like them, they are far too popular to make moves against right now (this will change soon, but the party doesn't know this).
They have managed to convince the town that they should go and talk with the lizardman chief and see why they were buying weapons. The captured lizardmen have made references to invaders from beneath the sea, and devil shark men, but no one has put the information together (yet).
They'll go, and the chief will tell them he's got himself quite a pickle. He has the allies (from other races) that would allow him to take out the sahuagin, except that they have taken a very holy place to his people. This temple - a place of peace for all lizardmen - is so sacred to the lizardmen that no lizardman will ever assault it. It was the chief's throne for quite some time, until the Sahuagin Baron came and took it from him, killing his father and mate, and nearly killing himself and his son, along with dozens of his best and most well armed warriors. Because the shark men have this sacred place (which has an enchantment that literally makes it impossible for lizardmen to fight against the master of the temple), they have managed to turn the allegiance of many less human-friendly villages of lizardmen to their cause. While these villages hate the idea of an outsider controlling the hall, they cannot act against them at all. When told they would get to hunt humans and come and go within the halll as they pleased (like before), they signed on immediately. Chief Seljuk Silvertooth knows he can get them back under control as soon as he controls the hall once again, and is willing to swear to an agreement where he will keep the human hating lizardmen out of the environs of Saltmarsh in exchange for trade and the right to rule the swamps with the acknowledgement of the city itself.
The party will agree to this (mostly because the adventure itself will open with a combat, and I won't give them a choice, heh - though they would have agreed), and start towards the temple. led by Silark the Smooth, the son of the chief.
here is where conjecture and campaign planning starts:
I've got the taking of the temple planned. hunky dorie. I know I want to run a variation of the attack on the Sahuagin fortress (which the temple is not - the temple was merely a way to distract and neutralize a potential enemy).
In addition to the rogue lizardmen tribes, there is another player in this grand scheme. A black dragon has assembled three major tribes of humanoids in the swamps north of Salinmoor. Goblins, orcs, and kobolds (oh my!) Are all led by half dragon childrend of the Black Talon (as the dragon is known). Originally it was to be a tie into the Red Hand book, and I may steal parts of it, but I think I will be keeping the action strictly in Salinmoor and Southern Keoland (and the surounding countries to a lesser degree). This dragon, wanting greater treasure for himself and his minions (mostly for himself, but they can take scraps), is fully behind helping these shark men attack the human cities. His forces will strike from the swamps while the sahuagin strike from the sea. The plan is to have all the major cities fall in the same week, preferrably on the same day. Right now their planning hinges on a sizeable lizardman army being available to relieve Sahuagin and Black Talon forces in Saltmarsh, so if the PCs succeed, Saltmarsh will be spared the brunt of the attack. Depending on when they plan their assault of the Sahuagin Fortress, they may be able to limit the dstruction of the other coastal cities and towns. Either way, they will be unable to stop the Black Talon. They don't have enough information, and that is intentional.
Once they deal with the Sahuagin threat, they will have to turn their attention to the threat of the Black Talon tribes. My intent is to have them face off against the dragon at level 20 (or thereabouts). And here is where things get fuzzy. I know I am going to use Rodeni manor at some point, because it is just awesome. Beyond that, and the fact that I want them to have to hunt down each tribe, I am not sure where I am going from here. Of course in the short term I've got plenty to work with, but its still nice to know where I'm going from here. I still don't know what I am going to do for Epic (if anything).
Funny thing, my player's low level party is presently at about the same place as your group. They captured the smugglers and purchased the mansion from the city. They determined that not all the smugglers were bad and petitioned the city to release Bloody Bjorn and 2 others on a work release to fix up the house.
They also helped with the interrogation and did not kill the lizardmen. (very fast second module). They have worked out an alliance with Saltmarsh and the lizardmen. Basically, the city gave and the lizardmen accepted, the party to invade/ recon the sahaugin lair. I have thrown in some other information as well. I used the Canonfire saltmarsh local history information (who is who) as one of the books found in the mansion. They used it to determine which family (Aerakin) to work for/ sell information to. I also found something here in Canonfire in the form of a letter from a gnome about "coiled dragons"and a black dragon in the swamp. I had it fall out of one of the books. They "believe" that the lizardmen work for either one of these dragons. I also used the bullywug encounter on their way to the lizardmen. I thought of giving the local bullywug chief/king the artifact Squall. I also was going to use Rodeni Castle, but have the head of Aerakin family send them there.
My problem is that they are 4th level. They will not survive an assault on the sahaugin lair. I thought of sending them in the swamp to find Squall, which will help them and gain them some additional experience.
I like your idea of a dragon horde assault on the city as well. Perhaps, some raids by the dragon horde to soften up the city and determine the defenses? Or agents from one dragon or the other sell information concerning the impending invasion and they have to foil the plans? They can go after the bullywugs, for Squall, and stumble upon a massing of troops in the swamp...
The Black Talon, IMC, is much more and much less than a horde. Their squad based morale is excellent, and they are very well coordinated. Of course my group tends to be very coordinated, so I have to make the baddies the same, if not better. My group is used to playing Shadowrun, and approaches every combat like a spec ops group. When their group cohesion has failed is when I've killed them. One fight, against a group of Black Talon agents (goblin warriors, kobold monks, a greenspawn sneak, and a winged kobold paladin of tiamat - all right after a fight with some stirges and a rat swarm), I had over half the party in negatives, and only because the opposing force had reached their retreat point (all goblins down, and the greenspawn nearly dead - he was an envoy to the dragon, and this was them having a random encounter) did the party survive. The party learned some hard lessons. Enlarging a Goliath Knight in Full Plate is a good idea, except when said Goliath Knight in Full plate is going to be standing on a very rickety stairway where there is a chance of falling through. He had t roll a 2 not to fall and take damage. A 2. He nearly died, so I'll let you guess what he rolled :)
Onto your scenario: My idea was to have the dragonhordes test Saltmarsh guards when they were away from their fortifications, such as when on patrol outside the walls, or guarding caravans, etc. Every farm around the city, when its closer to invasion time, will experience raids from goblins, kobolds, and orcs. You could easily use the Bullywugs in place of the Orcs, and some other race in place of goblins, and make it an all cold blooded attack force.
My time table is: Raids on surrounding farms to get an idea of response time, attacks on patrols to determine competence, assassination attempts against high level war leaders to eliminate leadership, and then finally probing assaults (when hostilies grow to their crescendo), and finally an overwhelming assault including the destruction of fortifications, and the slaughter of all folk, man, woman and child. There are cities they want prisoners from, Salt Marsh isn't one of them. They want Salt Marsh to return to the swamps from which it came, except for the docks area, which they intend to use to ship to other areas and expand their empire.
I solved the issue of level by advancing time (we had taken some time off from that campaign to let someone else run), and therefore level. The group is now starting at level 5, and with the size of the group (6 regularly, 7-8 on occasionan), they can handle whatever I throw at them in terms of sahuagin.
What system are you using by chance? I know 3.x and 4E fairly well, so I can give you precise suggestions once I know. Your Bullywug plot sounds awesome, and either as a part of the Black Talon (they could even be a fourth race in the Black Talon Horde), or as an ally of the Sahuagin and the Black Talon, it works well. IMC its only one dragon, thought he is OLD and powerful. If you need more, add em, that sounds cool. In fact I may change how I am doing things now that I running 4E. So far I don't have the capability of making half dragons, so I may just have a younger dragon ruling each tribe. Maybe not. By the time it matters there will probably be a half dragon template I can use.
Since I already dropped the letter concerning the 2 dragons in the area, I was planning on having the Black be very old and powerful, like your Black Talon. I was going to have the "coiled" be a younger, cunning dragon from the far west. Although new to the area, it is quickly gathering forces to test and slowly weaken the Black. Never an outright confrontation, yet.
I was planning on having the lizardman tribes under both dragons and some independant. Thus they have the difficulty, though numerous, of gathering under one banner to drive out the impending sahaugin threat.
I was not going to have the Bullywugs under the sway of either dragon, but that can change... Perhaps now that the humans have attacked one of their raiding parties and made off with "the" helm. (history of Squall) Perhaps they are willing to join forces with the dragon on its assault of Saltmarsh and some of the neighboring cities.
I must also consider that Saltmarsh and the surrounding area, are on an alert status with the knowledge of the sahaugin, although they would be looking in the wrong direction.
I have contemplated allowing the player's higher level characters enter the scene and aid the lower level characters on their assault of the sahaugin. With both groups, they should be successful.
There are 5 of them; low level party is 4th, and the high level party is 8th - 10th. The low level party has few magic items, but the high level group is Castle Greyhawk magic item supplied.
Don't expect the players to take out the entire complex. Write up a bunch of encounters. tie them to locations. Give the players a finite number of encounters until the end of the adventure. Anything that is beyond their level is handled by their allies. If they can handle one of something, then let them handle one of something. Run an encounter in the middle of a larger melee. For your players the rest of the action doesn't matter. Give them a small area to have their encounter, tell them that they may as well be having their battle in an arena. They can't effect what's going on elsewhere in the battle, and vice versa. If they set off an area effect spell, then so be it. Maybe it has an effect on the others in the room, maybe it doesn't. The PCs don't know either way. They are focused on their battle. When they are done, they pant and run on to their next threat or objective. Challenge them, make them work for it, but make their work only a part of the greater whole. Stress why they need allies.
And for the love of all that is Gygax, don't run everything!!!! Run what you need to and narate the rest. Sometimes you'll narate the players through an area, where they destroy enemies that are too low level to really be worth XP, or get help and as such get no XP. This is the big final battle. Make them work for every victory. Make their victories count too. Heroes of Battle, a 3rd edition book that is really above average in terms of giving you ideas of how to deal with PC groups in battles, suggests assigning an overall point value to each encounter. Not the XP total, but its importance to the bigger battle. Brawling in the big main hall is worth a lot of XP, but its not worth as much tactically as holding the main gate or the exits to that main hall. And never let your PCs have to hold an area for longer than it is dramatically appropriate. Once the drama is done, have an allied force come and relieve them.
That's how I'd do it. I can't suggest much for 2E, namely because I never got further than character creation in 2E.
Interesting approach. I have always run my campaigns on the premise that it is what it is. The players have learned that they must know when to fight and when to flee. And I know my players, they will not recon, they will attack and kill everything that they can. If they enter with additional forces, I will be able to run it like your suggestion. I can include forces of the mermen, lizardmen, and others from the alliance.
That is the second time I have come across the suggestion of that book, Heroes of Battle. I think I will look into picking it up. Previously, we have conducted large scale combats with alot of dice rolling. When I tell people that they cringe, but I'll tell you they have been some of the most interesting combats that the group has ever had. Lots of crits and lots of fumbles makes for an interesting combat.
Thanks for the input, I find bouncing my ideas off others here rewarding.
Well, we game this weekend and once they determine how to get back one of their high level clerics that died, I will revert back to the low level characters and see how it goes. But, I do think that they were looking forward to combining their low and high level characters.
Yeah. You'll have to ignore or rework the rules stuff in there (its 3.5), but the overall discussion of how to have an adventure in the middle of a mass battle is among the best I have seen on the subject. Here's the primary thing it tells you: Decide, absent the PCs, how the battle will go. Decide how the players can change it, and what effect they will have on its outcome with varying levels of success.
Anced Math and I both love it, and several others here enjoy it as well.
My Saltmarsh group is much like yours. Recon is what you do when you let the Rogue go first. Though to their credit, in Saltmarsh they managed to go directly to the seaside cave long before they ever touched the upper levels of the house. They are lucky/annoying/cursed like that. It almost killed three of them (that's what happens when the scream from the cleric when the fear trap goes off alerts everyone).
So far I am months away from start, though it is getting closer all the time. Right now we are playing Shadowrun (3rd at the moment, though we play both), and there is talk of getting back to Salt Marsh after that. Once I get the basics of the overall adventure done, I'll post it in this thread, but I don't anticipate that being soon.
We gamed on Sunday and they retrieved their high level cleric. They want to combine their characters, so they began the journey from Greyhawk to Saltmarsh. It will be a trying journey filled with danger and intrigue. LOL
I have decided to have the Bullywugs assault Saltmarsh and tryout the Battle system you have mentioned. I will have to find the book. The journey of the high level characters should give me plenty of time to read the book and make adjustments. Thanks for the lead.
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