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    Canonfire :: View topic - When a character dies....
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    When a character dies....
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 03, 2008
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    Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:06 pm  
    When a character dies....

    How do you all handle the character death situation?

    I presently have it set up that when someone on Oerth dies, their soul goes to the city of the dead and they wait for the avatars. The gods know of a persons death, death rite, and send avatars to gather their followers and bring them to serve their deity. Clerics take the expressway directly to their deity. Those with no deity or ones that have angered their god are left in the city. The avatars of Nerrull do occasional sweeps thru the city gathering up those that have been left behind by their deity or have no deity. Sacrifice sends the soul directly to the god receiving the sacrifice.

    I then propose that a resurrection/ raise dead spell is asking a god to send an avatar to the soul of an individual and return it to it's body. Failure means that whoever is in possession of the soul is not willing to give it up or the avatar is unable to locate it.

    My problem then lies with the reincarnate spell. Why would you need another body if the body is needed for the spell? I would presume that the avatar was capable of finding the body with one of it's cleric casting next to it. Any thoughts on the reincarnate spell?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:11 pm  

    The reincarnation spell is druidic, and thus works according to different principles than clerical magic. In druidic magic, the balance must be maintained, so resurrection cannot be granted without a price. The price in this case is that the reincarnated soul must inhabit a new body in order to grow closer to the totality of nature; with each new body, the soul's understanding and appreciation of the variety of life grows.

    One could presume a druidic god bargains for the character's soul, and insists on this condition. Or, if you prefer, the power of nature itself beckons the soul back into the cycle of life, and gods aren't involved at all. The price, then, would simply be part of the natural way of things, rather than a formal condition. This is the way things work when the gods don't meddle with the circle of death and rebirth.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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    Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:02 pm  
    Re: When a character dies....

    Lord_Percard wrote:
    How do you all handle the character death situation?


    Holy men across the Flaneass have asked this question of their patrons since time immemorable. The answer they receive is as varied as the patrons themselves. Those who ask Iuz or Syrul know they are being lied to. Those who ask Delleb know it is reasonable to assume that the ultimate answer to the universe is not entirely given out to mortals. Those who ask Vecna know that some secrets are being witheld. Those who ask Hextor know they are being bullied into following his particular vision of things. Those who ask Pholtus are blinded to any different interpretations. Those who ask Dalt know they have one of many keys to understanding. Those who ask Erythnul are enraged by the answer. Those who ask Boccob are ignored. Those who ask Zagig are too crazy to be believed.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:19 am  

    Thanks OleONeEye, that is a great character answer.

    Thanks for the reply rasgon. I like the second version better. Nature pulling the soul close to the cycle of life. This would also explain the spell being a higher level, generating the magical power from nature vs being granted the power from a god.

    But then that begs more questions, how about the MU version of the spell. Is it the natural power and randomness of magic that returns the soul to a randomly generated/ selected body? Is this body created from nothing? Or is it the incarnation of a long lost body from the past? Or a body stolen from some soulless creature of the present? Magic being magic and nature being nature yet both are part of Oerth, is this the reason for the separate body tables that are similiar yet different?

    Thanks
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:33 am  

    Lord_Percard wrote:
    Is this body created from nothing? Or is it the incarnation of a long lost body from the past? Or a body stolen from some soulless creature of the present? Magic being magic and nature being nature yet both are part of Oerth, is this the reason for the separate body tables that are similiar yet different?


    It seems to me that if reincarnation were to play the way it is believed to on Earth, then when the spell is cast, the soul is placed into a newly-born (or newly conceived) body. I don't think this is how it is played, though. I think the body with the reincarnated soul just shows up a few turns later, right? This presents a host of problems, in my opinion.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:49 am  

    I have always seen reincarnation's inherent randomness to be based on "what is up next to be born" that would be a suitable host to the character's soul. For example, when a character is being reincarnated the die roll represents what in all of creation is up next to be born into the world (an elf, goblin, bugbear, whatever) at the time of the casting. Instead of the entity being born naturally, the character's soul is placed in the body of the entity and the resulting combination of old soul and new body creates a sort of hybrid, but at least the balance of nature is upheld.

    Thus, when a human wizard dies and a bugbear is due to be born at that moment somewhere on Oerth, the reincarnation spell places the mage's soul in the bugbear's body. This maintains the balance and cycle of nature. Consider that if individuals were constantly resurrected then the balance would be thrown off in terms of the natural cycle. This makes sense for wizards as well because of the concept of sympathetic magic as well as the fact that wizards typically have no authority to barter with gods for the souls of the departed.

    As far as why at least a portion of the body must be there, well its really sort of a trade good as I see it. Here is the former shell of the spirit I am requesting be bound to a new body.

    Thats my 2c worth. Hope something in my ramblings helps a bit.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:38 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    The reincarnation spell is druidic, and thus works according to different principles than clerical magic. In druidic magic, the balance must be maintained, so resurrection cannot be granted without a price. The price in this case is that the reincarnated soul must inhabit a new body in order to grow closer to the totality of nature; with each new body, the soul's understanding and appreciation of the variety of life grows.

    One could presume a druidic god bargains for the character's soul, and insists on this condition. Or, if you prefer, the power of nature itself beckons the soul back into the cycle of life, and gods aren't involved at all. The price, then, would simply be part of the natural way of things, rather than a formal condition. This is the way things work when the gods don't meddle with the circle of death and rebirth.


    I know the general thoughts on the new cosmology for 4E, but this second path is in line for how they have "defined" the primal power source, and fits very well with the Old Faith Druids of Greyhawk. Which version of the spell requires another body though? 1E or 2E? I only got into DnD heavy in 3rd and beyond.

    Oh, and to the OP, I like the city of the dead angle. That's pretty cool. Are you using a limited cosmology, or does Wee Jas play second fiddle to Nerull in this case?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:35 am  

    IronGolem, you hit the nail on the head!!! The problem is the body showing up a couple of turns later that presents alot of problems. [Refer back to my "is the body created/ stolen/ recreated".] What a powerful spell that becomes, creation of a living entity from nothing and transferring a soul to it. And all this takes place within the vicinity of the character casting the spell. This makes reincarnation extremely powerful in my eyes, but until now I never had to comtemplate it.

    Xilinar, excellent prespective. Thus reincarnation, even when used by a mage, taps into the "nature" power of Oerth. I see where you are coming from. I even get the "next in line" portion of the cycle of life. Although I would argue that it would be conception rather than birth. Otherwise you would have alot of pissed-off parents out there looking for their children and if they found out druids and mages were stealing their kids bodies.... Happy I think I like this approach.

    MikelAmroni, one of my players died at the end of the last game. [happens when you are fighting a troll when you are 6" tall and the troll rolls a natural 20 on it's bite attack] Without the body, the players were looking up reincarnation, in 2e PHB a body is required. They then turned to the magic encyclopedia (I believe) and found the charts for druid and mage reincarnation. I did not read this version yet to see if the body is required. Does 3e require a body?

    Wee Jas pays lip service to Nerrull until powerful enough to challenge. Deities powers are always ebbing and flowing. IMC Nerrull holds sway over the city of the dead, presently. Nerrull is an integral part of Castle Greyhawk and is thoroughly pissed at my players.

    Thanks on the compliment for the city of the dead, it actually is an adventure hook for my players who will someday be there. Who says the adventuring has to stop when you die.....
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:03 pm  

    Lord_Percard wrote:
    IronGolem, you hit the nail on the head!!! The problem is the body showing up a couple of turns later that presents alot of problems. [Refer back to my "is the body created/ stolen/ recreated".] What a powerful spell that becomes, creation of a living entity from nothing and transferring a soul to it. And all this takes place within the vicinity of the character casting the spell. This makes reincarnation extremely powerful in my eyes, but until now I never had to comtemplate it.


    I seem to remember (1st & 2nd ed.) that the player has to reroll abilities and may even have to start a completely different class (for instance, dwarves didn't used to be able to use arcane magic). So, really, the only thing passed on were general memories (not skills) and alignment. That isn't particularly powerful.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:44 pm  
    Reincarnation and FR Fugue Plane

    Though it's not directly related to your question about Reincarnation, I would like to point out that the circumstances you've described associated with Death and Dying are very similar in nature to the same process in the Forgotten Realms setting. If you're interested, you might look there for further inspiration. (If you're into that kind of thing. "Not that there's anything wrong with that.") Wink

    It may simply be that the avatar is leading the soul back to a new body in thecase of reincrnation, rather than it's original one. Sometimes, it's just better to keep it as simple as possible.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:58 pm  

    MikelAmroni, one of my players died at the end of the last game. [happens when you are fighting a troll when you are 6" tall and the troll rolls a natural 20 on it's bite attack] Without the body, the players were looking up reincarnation, in 2e PHB a body is required. They then turned to the magic encyclopedia (I believe) and found the charts for druid and mage reincarnation. I did not read this version yet to see if the body is required. Does 3e require a body?

    Wee Jas pays lip service to Nerrull until powerful enough to challenge. Deities powers are always ebbing and flowing. IMC Nerrull holds sway over the city of the dead, presently. Nerrull is an integral part of Castle Greyhawk and is thoroughly pissed at my players.

    Thanks on the compliment for the city of the dead, it actually is an adventure hook for my players who will someday be there. Who says the adventuring has to stop when you die.....[/quote]

    No, it requires a bit of the old body (even a finger or toe, or a piece of his shoulder that was still attached to some armor, anything really) and then creates a new body for him to inhabit. Here is the description of the spell for 3.5.

    One of my DMs had a similar thing in his campaign, but of course in his campaign it was a NPC who had acheived over-deific level power, and ruled over the city of the dead, in much the same way as Nerull does in your game. He was called the Iron One. It wasn't until very late in the game that I caught that his initials, IO, described why he was such a Bad Mutha.

    That same DM had an interesting mechanic. When you died you became a 1st level petitioner. You could adventure in the city of the dead, and he often ran side treks there if people died. Sometimes you could go of your own free will, but not often. We had one player who died so often that we a) had extra diamonds and scrolls of raise dead (she had a bracelet that negated the level loss), and she was up to about 5th level in the land of the dead. The biggest and baddest of demons would end up cowering to goblins there, because the goblins would do anything to advance, where "more important" creatures balked at doing such menial things. The goblins ended up braving the very dangerous streets of the City and ended up the highest level threats in the city, aside from the direct minions of the Iron One, Lord Ironblood (which was the name by which we referred to him, hence it taking so long for Iron One=IO=AO=Forgotten Realms overdeity to catch). And Lord Ironblood counted many goblins among his most trusted minions. That said, they died in handfulls in the real world. Ah balance. LOL

    Interesting take on the city of the dead and how its ruled. If you intend on the players taking an interest there, might I suggest you sit down and build the city like you would any other city, just realize that souls and favors will be the coinage of the realm. It'd be interesting to see the daily give and take of a realm where all the Death Gods hold a stake in the city, and Nerull is merely (now) the premeire among equals.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:14 am  

    Icarus - Thanks for the heads up on the Forgotten Realms lead. One of my players has just about everything published for Forgotton Realms so I can investigate further.

    Mikel Amroni - Thank you for the additional information on the City of Dead of your DM. I like the Goblin angle, (not so powerful in the material world, but very powerful in the realm of the dead). I have allowed them a glimpse into the City of the Dead. (Nerrull is seriously angry with them and would like nothing better than to possess their souls.) The paladin glimpsed the torture of his ancestors at the hands of Nerrull agents in the city. This has fueled an interesting change in the paladin, which I will wait to see how he plays it out. I plan on trying to really flesh out the City of the Dead for their future adventure but that is a long way off.

    We have resolved the issue of Reincarnation for my campaign, I presented much of what was discussed here to my players and we have outlined how reincarnation functions. We decided that the power of Reincarnation comes from the "nature" power of Oerth like the spells of the Druids. The Mage version is using "magical" power to tap into the "nature" power for the same/ similiar effect. The body of the individual is not needed. Much like some magic items, the persons True name or an extensive history of the person is needed to reclaim the soul, bits of the person's body are also helpful. Oh yeah, we have decided on using the reincarnation tables from the Book of Humanoids.

    We did not resolve where the body comes from. I am leaving that for later consideration. Perhaps it can be used as a future hook for a future adventure. I don't want to tie my hands for some future idea of an adventure.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:19 am  

    Oh yes forgot the results, the human cleric returned as a high elf, thus no need to change class. I made him re-roll his physical stats and apply racial adjustments. But, they are already talking about polymorphing him into a human so that he can use his armor.

    Just like players, solve one problem and they create another...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:00 am  

    Lord_Percard wrote:
    But, they are already talking about polymorphing him into a human so that he can use his armor.

    Just like players, solve one problem and they create another...


    Hehehe! I love when players do that, and then they get hit with a Dispel Magic spell in the middle of combat. Ooops! ...Can't move... Bugbear wearing human armor... ugh...
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:39 am  
    Two Sides to This Issue

    I've been thinking about it for a while. I think there are two sides to this issue, an in-game explanation and a outside the game explanation. I think from the mechanics of the game perspective, people like the randomness of the re-incarnation risk. To explain why it works that way from the characters' perspective, I have a hard time thinking that someone would be reincarnated from a human to a lizard-man by somehow taking another lizard-man's body. Wouldn't it be easier to justify by saying this type of magic (by its own nature) is unstable and it's the character's own body that the magic has changed because the magic is unpredictable.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:30 am  

    Raymond - an interesting take, the problem is that the spell clearly states that the new body arrives in d6 turns. I have attempted to stay away from the out of game explanation. I was looking for a game mechanics explanation. I have found that when something happens and the characters begin to ask questions concerning the how and why, if you have some outline/ idea of the why and how the questions are limited and arguments are avoided. In my gaming experience, the worst thing a DM can say is "Because I say so". If you show the group that you have at least spent sometime thinking about a topic, they tend to accept your answer/ conclusion. I routinely present my players with the reasoning that I believe is relevent to the situation, ask for their input, give reasoned arguments and make a decision. I am always the final word, but by presenting and listening to them I seem to avoid the arguments.
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