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    Canonfire :: View topic - World Mixing aka Planescape Cosmology
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    World Mixing aka Planescape Cosmology
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 14, 2008
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    From: Modena, Italy

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:19 am  
    World Mixing aka Planescape Cosmology

    TSR managed to build the most confused cosmology in the entire world. From Spelljammer to Planescape, they first tried to bind all worlds toegther, except for Athas (Athas was connected anyway via Ravenloft mists, in the end).
    My gut instinct is to just stick to Greyhawk and banish all world-hopping, discarding Mordy+Elminster+Dalamar meetings, Planescape cosmologies etc. Even more so now that we know Forgotten Realms have its own planar cosmology.

    However my campaign, born almost 20 years ago, featured a lot of PCs from other published worlds (mostly Mystara and Toril), and I wanted to keep our canon as integral as possible. Besides, Gary's GH was very open to plane-spanning (like the gate to Mars under Castle Greyhawk). So in the end, I will give up and allow some very, very limited plane connection, using standard Planescape cosmology.

    Has anyone else made a firm decisions on how to manage this kind of "crossovers"? I will limit it to a handful of occasions, but I don't think it's too out of character with the setting.

    Most importantly (from my point of view), how would you handle obvious incongruences (a Common tonge that has different origins from setting to setting - Faerun Common comes from Chondathan, while GH Common is of Oeridian descent or the completely different origin of dark elves - Faerun has the Illithyiiri clan while GH never fully explained the origin of the dark elves). Any tales to spin?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:56 am  

    When I first started playing we were using Harn as our game world. When the Greyhawk folio was published we really liked it and our DM decided (without telling us) to switch settings.

    A perfect opportunity came for him when we tried to use a Teleport to escape a pretty heated magical battle that we were fighting. On the fly he described the interaction of the teleport spell with one of the bad guy's spell (I can't remember what he'd cast). Our teleport warping and twisting, our wizard rolling dice like mad trying to 'regain control' over his unravelling spell. Several gut wrenching second later our characters found ourselves staggering and puking, covered with a rim of frost in the middle of some barren grasslands... not the city in Harn we had tried to teleport to.

    We recovered and tried to teleport again but for some reason the spell failed (later we determined it was because we were trying to teleport to somewhere we knew in Harn which was FAR, FAR out of normal teleport range). Left with no alternative we picked a direction and started hiking. Eventually we found a village filled with people who spoke a language none of us knew (Oerth Common).

    Eventually our characters learned the language (although we always had an accent that people couldn't place) and our characters (and us players) figured out we weren't in Harn any more but in some new world called Oerth (which was also funny because none of us players realized that Oerth was name of the World of Greyhawk so we didn't even make that connection for a bit longer). We never did figure out the exact mechanics of how that unstable magical interaction between spells hurled us here.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:39 am  
    Re: World Mixing aka Planescape Cosmology

    MToscan wrote:
    Most importantly (from my point of view), how would you handle obvious incongruences (a Common tonge that has different origins from setting to setting - Faerun Common comes from Chondathan, while GH Common is of Oeridian descent


    I seem to recall that Faerun had magic in place that translated the common tongue of any planar traveler into their common tongue and vice versa. I thought this was also suggested in the City Beyond the Gate adventure in Dragon magazine that took place on Earth via a gate on Oerth. Sort of like the "universal translator" of the Tardis - it just makes things simple.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:39 am  
    Belarest ... and it's inclusions.

    When I was a much younger man that I am now - at the wise old age of 18, if memory serves - I and a friend of mine shared DMing duties among our friends.He was the fist to show me that we could create our own gaming worlds. And so, since we were fansof Dragonlance, and had the orange-spined roleplaying supplement, we decided to place our own continents on eithr side of Ansalon. In the ensuing years, this "all on one planet" theory grew and grew, 'til there was difficulty deciding how to fit the arctic regions together. long came Oerth, and Faerun, and Mystarra, Al'Qadim, and even the Hollow World saw inclusion ... the list grew and grew.

    Eventually, we had just about every published game world on one huge SuperPlanet. It should have affected weather patterns, it should have affected climate, and migrations, and languages ... but with the naivity that only an 18 year old can muster, my friend and I put them all together, and never worried about all of the other stuff.

    That was our solution to Plane hopping. Eventually, as we grew up, the continents got fewer and fewer as some of the worlds got more seldom used. Eventually a few of the Realms got put back in their own places. The mists of Ravenloft got seperated from the mists that were the boundary of the Hollow World. The world of my own creation - Belarest - eventually found a cosmology of its own, and somehow all the other stuff vanished into the dimly remembered past.

    I for one, believe that there sould be a few rare crossovers, but I am big on Spelljammer and Planescape, so I do use a few links in there for that ... but, I really don't like it when there is too much intermingling. I think that it is fine when there are a few, but, I don't think that for most gameplay that they should be mixed seemlessly.

    I personally believe that if one is going to have a great big planehopping campaign, that Common shouldn't be the same in all of the "Crystal Spheres". If the PCs are going to places that varied, they should have to face the consequences of different languages. But if it's just a one-shot trip, or converting to a new campaign, it doesn't hurt anythig to have a magical explanaion for how it works ... although that does make for some interesting applications for Antimagic zones and Dispel Magic!

    Just reminiscing. Happy
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: Nyrond

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:43 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    In the ensuing years, this "all on one planet" theory grew and grew, 'til there was difficulty deciding how to fit the arctic regions together. long came Oerth, and Faerun, and Mystarra, Al'Qadim, and even the Hollow World saw inclusion ... the list grew and grew.


    Reminds me of the Forgotten Realms... WotC stuff a lot of their auxillary campaign worlds onto Faerun... Al'Qadim, Mazteca, etc.

    __________________________


    For even more fun... why mix just game worlds... mix genres...

    I remember one year WotC announced that they were going to mix their Living Greyhawk (D&D) and Living Force (Starwars) campaigns. Yes, now your jedi can face off against evil clerics and dragons... Droids can be wizards and elven blaster packing gamblers.

    Eventually it was revealed as an April fools day prank.

    Here's the link: Living Greyforce

    In the 1st edition DMG there were even rules for cross-genre campaigns Mixing D&D with Boot Hill, Gamma World, and other RPGs.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:52 pm  

    I've had problems with the old "all worlds are equal" mix-up myself.

    IMC, I've decided to exclude everything from non-Greyhawk sources with the following exceptions:

    Greyhawk NPCs and situations mentioned in Planescape are still there, but everything from worlds other than Oerth or indigenous to the Planescape setting itself is reinterpreted. Also, all indigenous-to-Planescape events and circumstances that do not coincide with Greyhawk canon or otherwise fit the "feel" of Oerth are either ignored or reinterpreted.

    The "Great Wheel" is not a literal reality. It is merely a philosophical model that is widely accepted. The planes in fact exist independently, though some are linked in various ways. Also, there are various "pocket planes" that are only tenuously linked to the greater multiverse.

    The gods no longer "live" on the planes. Rather, their avatars do while they themselves are beyond the need for a physical existence. (More on this in an upcoming article, hopefully)

    The only "alternate primes" that exist are those suggested by Gygax: Aerth, Earth, Irth, Oerth, Urth, and Yarth, and those which Gygax deliberately included in his campaign, such as Mars. Earth, of course, is not our actual planet, but is instead a slightly fantasized version of it. Because of this, many elements from Gygax's non-D&D writings are available, though those that do not coincide with Greyhawk "reality" are ignored or reinterpreted as above.

    Ravenloft as an independent realm does not exist. Rather, it is part of the "Shadow Realm", which is my term for a quasi-reality that sometimes exists and sometimes doesn't. Think of adventures in Ravenloft as "dream sequences" or something similar - what PCs experience there may or may not be real.

    Rifts in time exist, making it possible for Robilar to adventure in Earth's medieval world, for example, as well as for the ship in the Barrier Peaks to have come from Earth's far future, and for a thoroughly disoriented accountant from the 1980's to have appeared in the Rakers. One plane, many time periods.
    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:49 pm  

    Unlike some, I've never really enjoyed mixing the worlds to a great degree. Its just too much Meta-magic for my taste. Confused

    Its like the Chronomancers I hear about, I don't care how powerful they become, I just can't see Lendor allowing them to screw with the time-line to any substantial degree, it would be a dereliction of his duty as the God of Time. In my world, the Gods are a little more pro-active and concerned than others here play them.

    World hopping is much like that for me. Its powerful magic. I don't think there should be a plethora of magicians capable of doing it. It should be something very rare. And as I've said before, I don't care to mix magic and science in my world, but that's just me. Wink

    Anyway, that's the way I like to play it. Many, if not most here will/would feel differently about it, and to them I say . . . Happy planet hopping! Wink Happy
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:29 pm  
    Plane hpping and tuning forks.

    One of the things that I think alot of peple have forgtten about plane-hopping, is that there is a very rare item that is a component fo the spell ... a Planar Tuning Fork. Now this is not a run-of-the-mill musical tuning fork. It is specially made an treated and whatnot to make it a special thing ... I have to admit I haven't any idea how one is specifialy made, but I do know that the PHB specifically states in every edition since 1st, that it's solely up to the DM what they are, and/or which are avalable. While I was in LG, there was only one single time that I saw a Planar Tuning Fork be available in a module.

    At any rate, even though it's not a high level spell, I think that it's apparent that there would be few mages with the ability to run both willy-nilly and to-and-fro amongst the realms.

    I do include most other references and links to other stuff, like Spelljammer and Planescape, because there isn't that much there that isn't able to be integrated, IMO. I don't use anything other than GH, for the most part, similar to Bubbagump. Also, I don't think that the Great Wheel has to be a physical reality,anymore than Heaven is up, or Hell is down. It's just the way we phiosophically understand it, so that it makes since to our little Commoner minds. Shocked I do (technically) say that there are other Primes out there, but they are difficult to get to, and there is almost no one that has ever done it. (Mordenkainen and Elminster notwithstanding, of course.) Ravenloft ... well there are lore-links to Oerth ... but, I've never included anything from it in my games. It's just "theoretically" included.

    Chronomancy, and Time Travel, are, of course, completely different things. There's quite a bit ... but, I think that's best left to another threado Lendor and Cyndor. Let's not forget Greyhawk 2000! Wink
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    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:06 pm  
    Re: Plane hpping and tuning forks.

    Icarus wrote:
    Chronomancy, and Time Travel, are, of course, completely different things.


    Of course, I'm not the least bit interested in changing the subject, just stated that particular by way of example. Wink

    Still, I will continue to treat world-hopping as powerful magics in my world, in addition to the Planar Tuning Fork that you mentioned. (Something I hadn't heard of by the way. Thanks for that bit of information. Happy )

    But as I said, that's just how I play the game, others will naturally do it differently. Cool
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 pm  

    Hmm, I had a player who wanted to play an aasimar in my ToEE campaign. it didn't quite work... Planescape is a VERY high magic campaign setting. The very mechanics of the planes put a handicap on magic items and how powerful casters can be. Anyway. I ran my GreyHawk campaign as fairly low magic. Wizards and priests weren't that common. I would imagine it would be strange for the residents of Verbobonc to see a bariaur, or a tiefling, walking through their streets. The more superstitious would have them arrested and probably executed as demons! Shoot, they don't even allow half-orcs into most GreyHawk metropolises (mine, at least. And from social stigma and bad PR).

    ciao!

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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:12 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Unlike some, I've never really enjoyed mixing the worlds to a great degree...and some other stuff


    To be quite honest, I don't care much for plane-hopping and time travel, either. I've been known to do such things, but always and only for short jaunts. Unfortunately, somehow I caught this nasty Greyhawk completist/canonista bug some time ago and I can't seem to shake it. Therefore, against my will and my better judgment I'm compelled to work everything Greyhawk-related into a complete, integrated, internally cohesive system. I know it's likely to drive me mad someday, but what can I do?

    As an addition to the comments in my previous post:

    I'm not sure yet what to do with Spelljammer. I have included the Greyhawk-related elements in my campaign, but without the other crystal spheres I have to admit it seems rather scanty. I suspect I'll eventually end up including the other spheres as well, sans the campaign worlds they contain (Toril, for example), and with all other setting-specific information reinterpreted.
    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:41 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I'm not sure yet what to do with Spelljammer.


    I just don't use it. As I've stated in several threads, I just don't like having Science Fiction mixed with my Sword and Sorcery. I don't like books where Conan meets Captain Kirk. I just don't like to mix the two genres. Razz

    Spelljammer smacks of Science Fiction to me and not Sword and Sorcery. As for the spaceship located somewhere upon Oerth (in canon) I simply don't mention it, or use it in my game play.

    Yes, I know that many here do use it and like it and to you I say, "May the Force be with you." Wink

    But I don't. The only way to "world-hop" in my WoG is by means of magic and such an occurrence is very rare, not impossible, but very rare. Very few magicians can do so "at will."

    But that's just me. Happy world hopping! Happy
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    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:13 pm  
    Re: World Mixing aka Planescape Cosmology

    Well, there are several very different answers to the question of how the various worlds relate to one another that have appeared in official publications.

    The first one, seen in Gygax's Oerth-Aerth-Yarth-Uerth-Earth sequence and in the first edition Manual of the Planes, is that they're all really, to some extent, the same world, but they've been separated at some point in history. So if Toril and Oerth have different continental arrangements and celestial configurations, it's just that the two worlds diverged very, very early, when the planet was still forming. Any coincidences in the content of the two worlds, according to this theory, isn't really coincidence - they both have elves, dwarves, orcs, and so on because they're really alternate versions of the same world.

    After Spelljammer, the assumptions changed. Instead of being parallel realities, they're different planetary systems separated by crystalline spheres. If this is the case, more explanation is required as to how the same races ended up on separate worlds. Was it parallel evolution, migration, the will of the gods, or some ancient alien race "seeding" the various worlds for reasons of their own? It was one of the great projects of 2nd edition to account for this, and you can see various theories offered in Spelljammer sources, The Complete Book of Elves, and Demihuman Deities.

    In 3rd edition, the Spelljammer cosmology was for the most part ignored though not explicitly contradicted, and travel between worlds and their associated cosmologies was said to require the Plane of Shadow. In 4th edition, traveling between campaign worlds is mentioned as an optional possibility, but nothing of the mechanics of this has really been described. However, an NPC said from Toril appears in Sigil in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2, indicating that the City of Doors remains a viable method for inter-world travel.

    As for the Common tongue, the most natural thing to do would be to make Faerunian Common different from Flanaess Common, and in turn different from the Thyatian Common Tongue of Mystara.

    If this is inconvenient, it could possibly be a property of a portal the PCs use to travel that their minds are translated into the local common tongue. Or... coincidences happen. Maybe the Jhaamdath-descended Common Tongue of Faerun just happens to sound exactly like the Oeridian/Suel/Baklunish Common of the Flanaess.

    Because the nature of the elf-drow war on Oerth is undefined, it really wouldn't hurt much to say that that war only took place on Toril, and the drow migrated from Toril to Oerth via a subterranean portal, founding the city of Erelhei-Cinlu beneath the Hellfurnaces perhaps without even initially realizing they were on another world. Later, they could begin to encounter surface elves on Oerth and resume their ancient vendetta - the previously unknown race of black-skinned elves emerging from the depths and ranting about an ancient civil war would doubtless have confused the grey, high, and sylvan elves of of Oerth, but they would have no choice but to acknowledge that the hatred of the drow was real. Their gods could fill them in on the details of what happened. An appropriate portal already exists in canon, intended by the designer to link the cities of Menzoberranzan and Erelhei-Cinlu. The only things that would really mess with are the history of the snow elves described in Dragon #155, and, slightly, the history of the Elder Elves described in Bruce Cordell's sahuagin trilogy.

    Alternately, maybe the elves of old used magic or spelljamming to recruit allies on different worlds, making the elf-drow conflict a world-spanning affair, with individual battles taking place on Oerth and Toril and elsewhere.

    As still another alternative, the various drow wars could have been entirely separate, connected only by a common set of gods and demons demanding that the war erupt eventually on every world that they were known.

    Athas was connected even without Ravenloft, by the way. The Dark Sun adventure Black Spine featured an invasion by githyanki from the Astral Plane, for example. Sigil has an Athasian neighborhood in it, there are Athasian elves in Pelion (the third layer of Arborea/Olympus), and The Inner Planes and A Guide to the Ethereal Plane described how Athas fit into the greater multiverse, and how to get to and from there from the relevant planes.

    Not that you care, or that any of this is particularly relevant to this thread. Just saying.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:15 am  

    I'm not against plane-hopping within limits. I've had a few guys head to the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes, Sigil and the Outlands but not actually between worlds. In my experience one game world should be enough, but I like to keep my plotlines flexible enough to account for short jaunts here and there. I kind of like having an NPC call someone a Berk or talk about the dark of something... Wink

    I'm open to the idea of Spelljamming, but it really hasn't come up very much I'm afraid.

    I grant that the Great Wheel cosmology is a bit silly but I have found that it works well enough. Certainly better than the Forgotten Realms rehash at any rate. I find that I am so bored trying to get through it (and there have been a few attempts!!) that I simply turn to a more interesting chapter and play on with the Great Wheel.

    As for languages, if someone makes up a character from the Outlands or even an alternate world I insist that they take the languages of their homeworld as well as whatever world they are playing on, whether it be a prime world or planestrade (planar common) or both. Either that, or fork out for the magic to allow them to communicate universally. So far I've found that it isn't a problem.

    Damien.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:05 am  

    And Professor Rasgon speaks! Happy

    Don't you just love it when he does? Wooo-hooo! Laughing

    Thanks Rasgon! Cool Wink
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:15 pm  

    Concerning languages, I've never been comfortable with the "everybody speaks Common" concept. I also don't like the "all big creatures speak Giant" concept or the "all reptilian creatures speak Draconic" concept. In my games, while virtually everyone in the Flanaess uses Common as a sort of pidgin trade-speak, I also require my players' characters to choose a native language from their place of birth. This language is their primary language, with Common coming in second. And I have absolutely no problem injecting all sorts of people and creatures who don't speak Common. While this has occasionally created a few problems, my players soon learn that acquiring new languages is a good idea and that tongues spells are their friend.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:52 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I've never been comfortable with the "everybody speaks Common" concept . . . virtually everyone in the Flanaess uses Common as a sort of pidgin trade-speak, I also require my players' characters to choose a native language from their place of birth.


    This is the way I see it too. Happy

    During the height of the Roman Empire, Koni Greek was the lingua franca of the realm -- when it came to trade and politics. Just about everyone involved in trade spoke it, but most others didn't. And yet, even amongst traders themselves they still spoke their own common language -- their native tongue. The exception was when trading/dealing with foreigners.

    In Greyhawk, adventurers would need this ability as well, but I just don't see most commoners needing to "learn the language," as it were. But that's just the way I play it. Wink
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:36 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    bubbagump wrote:
    I've never been comfortable with the "everybody speaks Common" concept . . . virtually everyone in the Flanaess uses Common as a sort of pidgin trade-speak, I also require my players' characters to choose a native language from their place of birth.


    This is the way I see it too. Happy


    There's a reason we get along so well, Scholar.

    Then again, it's probably just the regular protection money you pay me. Cool
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:44 pm  

    Well we ought to . . . considering the exorbitant payments you charge! Evil Grin Laughing
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:03 am  

    I like to make common a bit rarer in the provincial towns and villages, and literacy too. I've had some great games with players trying to communicate with a farmer or two in western Furyondy who only spoke Velondi. And I rarely allow humanoids any common unless they are particularly bright. Has anyone else had trouble keeping a straight face while the party tries to interrogate an orc when no one speaks orcish? Very funny indeed!

    Damien.
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