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    Canonfire :: View topic - Relative Timelines
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    Relative Timelines
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 11:28 am  
    Relative Timelines

    If the Greyhawk box set came out in AD 1983 and lists a date of CY 998 for the re-publishing of the Greyhawk information, then why is CY 576 equated with AD 1986 instead?

    And do most people consider Greyhawk's CY 576 as the same as Forgotten Realm's 1357 DR or DragonLance's 348 AC?

    Maybe most people don't care since they're not mixing settings...
    Site Theocrat

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:14 pm  
    Dates, Dates, Wonderful Dates

    Hi all -
    From what I recall, the Boxset for the World of Greyhawk is published as a game by Pluffet Smedger in CY 998. This game is based upon the historical world of Oerth and the Flanaess. It is much like in today's society in replaying the Civil War or Napoleon's battles.
    It is also for this reason that the people of the Flanaess are not concerned with lies outside of their area of influence. Again, just like the Civil War games - most do not take into consideration that Nevada was born from the Civil War (and that we are the first and only state to declare that we want to be part of the Union, internally vote to be accepted, and internally believe that we're part of the Union, only to be told "NO!" by Congress - until of course Congress says that they would like us - because they wanted our GOLD and SILVER). Or that Texas and Arizona were involved with the South and even fought battles. But while many died - the battles aren't as politically important as those in Virgina and South Carolina.

    So, while Pluffet Smedger wrote the Glossography in 1983 of Earth years, the WoG Folder came out in 1980 with a foreword by Allen Hammack in Feb. 6, 1979. So Pluffet Smedger - and just going here for fun and no real aspect - I'm guess that Pluffet Smedger pretty much took the ideas and concept as presented and the WoG Folder and re-presented them as his own in the '83 Glossography.
    As to CY 576 = 1986 - I think you are wrong. There never was any correlation to that which I've ever seen or noted. In fact the idea of equating Oerth's Current Year to Anno Domini didn't come until the Living Greyhawk Campaign, which wanted 1 year to equate to 1 year from the end of 2000 to the end of 2001 equating to CY 596 (I think that was the year).
    I also don't think that Oerth's calendar in any way relates to any other settings calendar - with the exception of maybe Paizo's Golarion (with so many of Paizo people being Greyhawk people [Lisa "Greyhawk Mega-Babe" Stevens, Erik "Iquander" Mona, Jason "Iuz the Evil" Bulhman, Sean "I Fracked Up Greyhawk with My Lack of Research" Reynolds, and so many more] as well as the setting being called World of Golarion [thus my calling it WoG 2.0]).

    Of course, either Rasgon or Grodog will come in here and tell you a different story. Don't trust them...Rasgon doesn't have my special ability of being able to take stickers off of just about anything without ruining the sticker or the package. Or my other ability to put things in the subject line. See, did he put one in the subject line?

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    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:57 pm  

    Wait...

    You can take stickers off without ruining them? Dude, how do you do that?
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:18 pm  
    Year Equivalents from LG

    This is one of those topics that has caused a bit of confusion over the years, and is occasionally difficult to sort out. I have to agree with Theocrat here about the years being equivalent for the LG campaign. That system of dating didn't come about until they had to keep track of the in-game years. The only trouble arises when trying to back-date, because they just don't match up back then. Thus:

    1976 = ??? (Supplement I: Greyhawk)
    1980 = ??? (World of Greyhawk folio)
    1983 = 576 (World of Greyhawk boxed set)
    1988 = ??? (Greyhawk Adventures hardback
    1989 = 582 (The City of Greyhawk boxed set)
    1991 = 582 to 584 (Greyhawk Wars boxed set/game)
    1992 = 584 (Patriots of Ulek)
    1992 = 585 (From the Ashes boxed set, and Rary the Traitor)
    1998 = 591 (The Adventure Begins)
    1999 = 591 (Scarlet Brotherhood)

    2001 = 591 (year of the LGG printing)
    2002 = 592 (game year 2)
    2003 = 593 (game year 3 ... etc.)
    2007 = 597 (Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk)
    2008 = 598 (last year of LG, Greyhawk Grumbler)

    And so, 1986, just happens to line up with an era that would be about 576 CY, but I don't exactly thinkthat was by design, as you can see above.
    The "current" game year would have been CY600, had the campaign continued, and some players still follow that in their continuity despite the campaign's end.

    Note that some other adventures and whatnot did come out between 1992 and 1998, but they were still attributed to 585CY. These include: The Marklands, Iuz the Evil, and The Return of the Eight. Also note that more than one product came out in 1992 with varying years, and that products dated 591 were published over several years.

    There's a couple of which I am uncertain about the dates, but, there you have it, as thoroughly as I know it. If anyone can fill those pesky ???'s for me, I will be glad to edit them ... Just PM me, or email me ... or heck, just post it up, and we'll have all kinds of fun talking about it!

    Next up - the calendar!! Shocked Well, maybe that's too much for me! Laughing

    And, as far as the dates of other realms and Primes, I once used way too many worlds in my cosmology, and when I was a young man, I tried to solve it by putting about a half dozen campaign worlds on one planet. Thus, I tried equating all of their calendars. Needless to say, it didn't work out very well for me. Imagine All of Oerik, Taladas, Ansalon, Faerun, Maztica, Al'Qadim, Mystarra, Hollow World, two different homebrews, etc all on one planet! Hah!
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    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:57 pm; edited 4 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:45 pm  

    i've learned my lesson about stickers...the hard way!
    now i just do the vapor thing , and they come off :P

    about mixing sets, im not one of those who does it, but if you think about the dragon magazine thingy mixing dalamar, mordenkainen and and elmisnter, maybe the "start" era is the same to all, but on the other hand, who can understand the time/dimensional travel wizards do? :D
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:27 pm  

    The Spelljammer timeline has perhaps the most comprehensive and thoughtful look at cross-world dating, except note that Toril, Krynn, and Earth all have 365.25 days, while Oerth's year is only 364 days, so time between those worlds eventually falls out of sync. Mystara's year is about a month shorter, only 336 days, but I'd match up 1013 AC with 587 CY based on publishing dates.

    There seems to be little point on commenting on Oerth-Earth dating after Icarus's post, except to note that Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure takes place in the 560s, Ghost Tower of Inverness takes place a few years before 576 (during the reign of Duke Justinian), Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in 579 and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in 594. So there's no consistent real world/Oerth dating pattern except between 2001 and 2008, and even then it's imperfect.

    I assume all the question marks on Icarus's list should be filled in with 576 CY, though as Issak noted the 1983 boxed set was supposedly written hundreds of years later.

    And yeah, my sticker prowess is limited.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:50 pm  
    Quirky dates in CY

    rasgon wrote:
    ... Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure takes place in the 560s, Ghost Tower of Inverness takes place a few years before 576 (during the reign of Duke Justinian), Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in 579 and Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil takes place in 594.
    ... I assume all the question marks on Icarus's list should be filled in with 576 CY


    I entirely agree with Rasgon's assumption about the ???'s, in fact, I was waiting to see if he would be the one to put dates to them. I figure that 576 seems right.
    It is interesting to note though, that Temple of Elemental Evil had it's original installment (The Village of Hommlet) taking place in 579 and was copyright 1979. An interesting little quirk, considering the discussion here. Although, that would sort of put it out of order if all of the ???'s were filled in with 576CY. Also, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is another one that seems incongruously out of order with a date given of 594CY. But, meh ... quirks is quirks. I don't think of them so much as contradctions, as errata. I like to believe that it was an honest mistake - the only problem is that they never published errata!!
    [Edit: considering the point Rasgon makes below about the date of ToEE, perhaps it's not the date that should be changed, but rather Cook's "15 years" to make it "12 years", and therefore 591 CY, instead.]

    Perhaps ... and this is merely a thought, perhaps it is just the main setting books that are reasonably in order ... the one that "advance the timeline". Maybe the Adventures and such (excluding '01 - '08) were placed just - whenever. That would at least explain the anomalies with MFA, GToI, ToEE and RtToEE.
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    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:16 pm  
    Re: Quirky dates in CY

    Icarus wrote:
    Also, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is another one that seems incongruously out of order with a date given of 594CY. But, meh ... quirks is quirks.


    Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil states that it takes place 15 years after Temple of Elemental Evil. Probably Monte Cook assumed Temple of Elemental Evil took place in 576 CY, which would have put the Return module in 591, where every other Greyhawk product released that year was set. But if T1 took place in 579, Return ends up being set three years after other adventures published in 2001. Oh, well.

    The GDQ series has been explicitly set in 576 CY, but the Queen of the Spiders supermodule explicitly places it after the events of T1-4, so there's a contradiction there.
    Site Theocrat

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    Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:47 pm  
    Ragson Still Doesn't Put Subject Lines

    Hi all -
    Didn't Zavoda do a list of all products and their corresponding time lines? Or what about the Bastard - I know I have some .doc file somewhere regarding his library thesis and products. Or even further back with Roger "Not 007" Moore (GailNRoger) in either an OJ or just one of his many AOL Boards posts. Of course, for that someone would need to go back and read all those text documents (God, I know the work I put into those was tons and I was no where near a fourth of the way through them).
    I'm pretty sure that someone somewhere has done this already.

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    Theocrat Issak
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    Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:57 am  
    Eras by Edition

    What I was trying to do was get a feel for which eras were covered by each edition. So my notes (which are obviously still in progress) say:

    OD&D: 505 Iuz is imprisoned by Zagyg Yragerne, St. Cuthbert, Heward, Murlynd, Keoghtem, and Kelanen;

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Aquaria

    The "present day" in which the R-series and Egg of the Phoenix (AD&D) supermodule (1982) are set is 565 JR (551 CY). Which characters went there?

    OD&D: D&D rules published (1974)
    OD&D: Greyhawk Supplement written (1975)
    OD&D: Blackmoor Supplement written (1975)
    OD&D: The Dragon (first issue) written (June 1976)
    ?: Quag Keep written and excerpt published in "The Dragon" in Feb. 1978.
    AD&D 1st Edition: 576 - Greyhawk folio written (1980 - written in Feb. and shipped in Aug.)
    G1 takes place in 576 CY.
    R4 takes place 579 CY.
    The Temple of Elemental Evil adventure takes place in 579 CY and the Slave Lords saga happens in 580 CY.
    AD&D 1st Edition: Bloodstone Pass (1985) Forgotten Realms module written.
    AD&D 1st Edition: Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (1987) places FR timeline near end of 1357 DR.
    Greyhawk Adventures (written 1988)
    AD&D 2nd Edition (1989): 582
    AD&D 2nd Edition Greyhawk Wars (1991): 582-584
    AD&D 2nd Edition "third wave": 585
    AD&D 2nd Edition From the Ashes (written 1992): 586
    AD&D 2nd Edition "fourth wave": 591 with Greyhawk Players Guide: 591
    AD&D 2nd Edition: 591 - The Adventure Begins (written 1998).
    Return to... modules released and set 20 years later with last of this series (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil written 2001) being 3rd Edition.
    AD&D 2nd Edition: Die, Vecna, Die! links Greyhawk with Ravenloft and Planescape.
    D&D 3rd Edition: 2000
    Living Greyhawk: 591 (2001) to 598 (2008).
    Boot Hill era?: 876 (998 - 122 where 1983 - 1861 = 122)
    Pluffet Smedger the Elder republishes Greyhawk folio (analogous to Earth 1983): 998

    Yet canonfire.com says: Calendar Translation Rule
    The canonic calendar translation rule is the one adopted by the Living Greyhawk Journal, i.e.,

    CY = AC 1410 (Which uses 576 + 1410 = 1986)
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:55 am  
    Refuting te LG timeline as applicable to all Eras

    Raymond wrote:
    Pluffet Smedger the Elder republishes Greyhawk folio (analogous to Earth 1983): 998


    Raymond wrote:
    Yet canonfire.com says: Calendar Translation Rule
    The canonic calendar translation rule is the one adopted by the Living Greyhawk Journal, i.e.,
    CY = AC 1410 (Which uses 576 + 1410 = 1986)


    Well, I hadn't looked at this thread in a few days, and it's just gotten wonky. First ... I don't think that there is anything that says anywhere that 998 = 1983. The Pluffet stuff is just an in-character way to describe it and make it neat. If one looks at the opening of The Adventure Begins, there are all kinds of quotes froma plethora of different people, and no one has ever tried to suggest that those quotes mean that they all happened at the same time, nor that they have anything to do with 1998. It's just in-character fluff.

    Secondly, more to the point, as has been pointed out already, that dating schemata has only been used since the Living Greyhawk campaign. Frankly, I can't figure out where it comes from that Canonfire has anything to do with absolute canon, but in that quote above, it even says that it is from Living Greyhawk. Beyond that, LG never used a 576+anything dating system. It was simply our current IRL year minus 1410... And that was only for the current years. It was never meant to be an extensive calendar/canon/law/rule/declaration. Those of us who played LG had to know when things happened within the timeline, and needed a simple comparison. It was never intended to go back 34 years and say that now 576 equals anything. The years they were published are the years they were *published*. That guideline was for contemporary dates, not as a revisionism.

    If there is anywhere on Canonfire that makes specific statement otherwise, I would offer the suggestion that it have a little note added to it, so that further misunderstanding doesn't become rampant. (i.e. - I'd like to see it if it's there.)

    Icarus
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    Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:35 am  
    Interpertation

    You're right, there is no explicit quote anywhere that says a particular Greyhawk year is supposed to represent a specific real life year. It was my interpertation based on the "in character way to describe" the 998 publishing date. From the responses, it looks like I'm the only one that took it that way.

    I also thought it might be helpful in case someone wants the future to be a time when the magic has run low in Oerth and maybe the Boot Hill rules would be in effect. Then I was thinking how if 998 could represent 1983 and 1861 (my assumpiton of when the Old/Wild West era started) was 122 years back, then 998 minus 122 would be 876. ...And if I could latch on to something, then I'd be trying to figure out a CY date when the science fiction game rules might be in play too...not that I have Boot Hill, Gamma World, or Star Frontiers rules at the moment anyway.
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    Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:59 am  
    Wrong End of Era

    My math is wrong. 1861 would be the end of the Old/Wild West era. The start of the era would start with the Gold Rush of 1849. So 1983-1849=134. 134-998=864. So the math doesn't work out anyway that way either.
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    Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:20 pm  
    Relative

    I was thinking about how someone might use the starting years for each campaign setting as a way to mark a place where all the timelines meet. I found a thread which seems to reference more information than I'm aware of:

    http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3223
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