In the BK, we detailed that a sewer system exists under Rookroost. Stoink, being on the river, probably doesn't need one (or would that mean it needs one more?). Riftcrag, which is fairly small, has one too.
In my opinion, most towns that have grown from village to city will have one as sanitation is a major issue whenever humans crowd together. I believe that Greyhawk and Dyvers have canonical sewer systems detailed.
I always envisioned magic replacing technology in some places. Purify Food/Drink eliminates the need to buy food or throw out water in a temple. You get what I'm suggesting? Yes, they eat their own poop. Praise be to Pelor.
A sewer will usually be present in any location where more than a few thousand people live in close proximity. That may not always be true though, as in the real world past sewage flowed down the center or sides of streets. People would just dump their refuse into the the streets where it would mostly flow away. Anything that didn't flow away, well, there were people who took care of that (usually)disgusting task. Some very large cities uses to do this- even those that did have sewers. In these case the city sewers were not extensive enough, so there was some refuse flow along the gutters of the streets which eventually flowed into the sewer. Still, lots of gross stuff just sitting there and rotting away in the heat and humidity. Imagine the stench. Yes, be very thankful for our modern sanitation, where the worst thing you might see/smell floating down the street in the gutter is some smelly rotting grass, leaves, or a food wrapper, rather than what your neighbor recently pooped out.
So, if you want to portray a place as a real crap-hole, quite literally even, then portray it either without sewers, or without extensive sewers(which is what should be the norm in most of the developed cities of Greyhawk). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
There is a lot of latitude to use when determining whether a city has a sewer system, or not. Factors that stand out to me is the level of magic in your campaign, and -if you're using canon- how prevalent magic is in the kingdom. Greyhawk City would definitely have an ancient, and magically empowered, sewer system. Now, to the degree the populace utilizes it is the question.
Greyhawk City, and i'm riffing here, would have an extensive sewer system. In all probability it was Zagyg who designed and built it. So, some parts of it would be pretty eccentric. Also, given its age, there are parts that are forgotten and/or built over. Something that has some parallel's to Undermountain doesn't seem too far out to me.
Anyway. I think there are many cities in the Flanaess that would have historically accurate waste disposal systems. Cities like Molag come to mind. Of course, if it is post-War, there are areas where the whole infrastructure is in decline and need serious attention to bring back into service, like Tenh or the Great Kingdom.
I'm certain there are some towns and cities where they decided to have adventurers go out and capture some otyughs and just funnel all trash their way. Of course, i'm sure there are some greedy types who decided to go down into the sewers and killed them to get their treasure. What a problem that would create! Disease would spread, parasites would become more prevalent, not to mention all the upset townspeople. Evil priests, if not greedy adventurers could be behind it all!
Not too relevant to the question, but thought I'd mention that there's a fun looking campaign setting called Sewer Rats over at the D&D Wiki - http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sewer_Rats_%28DnD_Campaign_Setting%29. Mentions GH City as a possible place to set it. Looks like it could be a whole lot of fun!
Greyhawk City would definitely have an ancient, and magically empowered, sewer system...
Greyhawk City, and i'm riffing here, would have an extensive sewer system. In all probability it was Zagyg who designed and built it.
Yes, but there's no magic involved. Zagig was first credited with building Greyhawk's sewers in FFF p54.
Cebrion wrote:
A sewer will usually be present in any location where more than a few thousand people live in close proximity.
Yep. If the chaotic-evil Iuz and the humanoids of the Pomarj can organize sewers in Dorakaa and Highport respectively (WGR6, A1-4), anyone can. Granted, the initial construction was probably done for them by the GK and Keoland. Rauxes also has documented sewers (WG8). Sewers are also common in generic products, Dungeons of Mystery and Eye of Doom being two examples off the top of my head. Bottom line, considering the name of the game we're all playing, we might as well take the opportunity to put slimy "dungeons" under most cities and large towns (Dorakaa is only 10,000 and the setting for Eye of Doom is described as "small town"). There will always be plenty of room for uncivilized states and crumbling infrastructure in the Flanaess too.
rossik wrote:
if so, does that make them more cultural evolved? (not only because of that, of course).
The final chapter of Ivid the Undying contains excellent notes on the level of technological advancement in Greyhawk. I doubt sewers make any difference in terms of cultural enlightenment - supporting enterprises like thieves guilds, zombie trade, and disgusting dwarf "Sewer Rats" as they do in Greyhawk city.
On the other hand, the sewers in Gygax's Yggsburg are more advanced, being connected to indoor plumbing, and the citizens could be considered more refined culturally with their wigs and billiard tables.
On the other hand, the sewers in Gygax's Yggsburg are more advanced, being connected to indoor plumbing, and the citizens could be considered more refined culturally with their wigs and billiard tables.
I don't think that technology makes any difference in this respect. Many ancient civilizations developed both sewers and indoor plumbing at fairly early stages: Mayans, Romans, etc... So you can have sewers of any kind wherever you want in the Flanaess. It is more a matter of engineering capacity, willingness and money to pay for it. The GK is known for its engineering prowess so I would say that pretty much all of the older cities in the GK, and perhaps Nyrond, would have well-developed sewers. As for the rest, the DMs decision should be final.
The Gord novels by EGG describe well-developed sewers in both Greyhawk and Dyvers (and VERY extensive sewers connecting to various dunegon areas in the case of the City). _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
Many ancient civilizations developed both sewers and indoor plumbing at fairly early stages: Mayans, Romans, etc . . .
While quite true, much of that knowledge was "lost" during the "Dark Ages," thus the name for that period.
JoseFreitas wrote:
The GK is known for its engineering prowess . . . and perhaps Nyrond, would have well-developed sewers.
I like limiting such "technology" to certain areas, such as those mentioned here. Other areas would have limitations on such knowledge. After all, even in London of the Victorian age, some people still threw their sewage into the streets. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
While quite true, much of that knowledge was "lost" during the "Dark Ages," thus the name for that period.
I don't think "lost" is the proper word. Rather, the structure of society - its capacity to finance and sustain this sort of project - was destroyed, and when it was regained, many places did not see this as a priority, preferring to go for big cathedrals, for example. But it is also something of a myth to say that it was "lost". Although true for western Europe in general (in the period 500-1000) it remained in use in most of the Byzantine world, in Muslim Spain and even in some areas of western Europe (Aachen, Charlemagne's capital, comes to mind). In the period 1000-1500, and especially 1400-1500, well developed sewer systems were the norm in Italy, for example.
A lot depends on the sort of period you want to have. I play in a 1350-1400 period, with plate mail, complex merchant companies and banks, a sort of just-pre-Renaissance era. So I have well-developed sewers in many areas: GK, major cities of Nyrond and Almor, the central areas of Keoland and the Ulek states, Ket.
But you also right that sewer systems does not equate with good sanitation! London in the 17th century had a sewer system, but the truth is that it was not connected to inidividual houses, rather, streets channeled sewage to certain places where it went underground, etc... _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
I don't think "lost" is the proper word . . . Although true for western Europe in general (in the period 500-1000) it remained in use in most of the Byzantine world, in Muslim Spain and even in some areas of western Europe (Aachen, Charlemagne's capital, comes to mind).
That's why I said that I would limit it to certain areas.
But, as regards "lost," let us remember that the knowledge of the making of concrete was "lost" after the collapse of Rome and remained so for over a thousand years.
It was over a thousand years before Rome's road building techniques came back into use. That's one reason we find their remaining structures and roads so fascinating. That and the fact that much of their engineering processes were unique to Rome.
"Lost" simply means that many people forgot how to "do it," for a long period of time.
Based on the different formative civilizations, the Flan probably didn't have massive sewer systems, nor did the Oerdids. The ancient Suel and Baklunish with their long established empires probably did, and so any massive sewer systems built later probably get much of their technology from these two sources. Where those cultures have influence in the development of later cities/nations, complex sewer systems would be more prevalent. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I would add the Great Kingdom in its heyday (ie.100 to 300 or so). I would also say that most large cities should have at least a basic sewer system, a set of tunnels which connect the major drainage points of the city and carries sewage away from it. This basic system would be much larger in the case of Greyhawk (perhaps Zagyg did carry out major expansion and rebuilding), approaching true sewer system. _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
London in the 17th century had a sewer system, but the truth is that it was not connected to inidividual houses, rather, streets channeled sewage to certain places where it went underground, etc...
This is the type of sewer system I "see" in many of my WoG's cities, Jose. Excellent point.
London in the 17th century had a sewer system, but the truth is that it was not connected to inidividual houses, rather, streets channeled sewage to certain places where it went underground, etc...
This is the type of sewer system I "see" in many of my WoG's cities, Jose. Excellent point.
I see the Great Kingdom (Oeridians) imitating the sewer systems of the Suel and Baklunish, for the reason that Cebrion has suggested.
Yes, those are the typical "fantasy medieval" sewers, which just look like they HAVE to connect to mysterious, horrible dungeons! Come to think of it... the modern New York sewer system also looks like that, with crocodiles and everything, at least in urban legend! _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
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