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    Canonfire :: View topic - Compact of the gods
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    Compact of the gods
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    Novice

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    Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:24 am  
    Compact of the gods

    Could someone help me finding information on the compact of the gods?

    I remember reading about the agreement the Oerthean gods made not to interfere directly on Oerth, thus maintaining something of a balance or at least avoiding armagedon with direct divine conflicts, but I can't seem to find the article now, or what book it was in.

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
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    Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:08 pm  
    Some Links

    Not sure if these will help, but...

    http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19794510/Creation_Myth_of_Oerth?pg=3

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/ghchrondex.php

    Both pertain to timelines... perhaps someone posting in the WotC forum might know something.

    If you do have any luck, please let me know. I had drawn up some notes about the planes, gods, and a secret covenant, so I'd love to find out more about the object of your quest.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:23 am  

    It's mentioned in From the Ashes.
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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:37 am  
    Edoira Compact?

    Mentioned at Wikipedia...?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rao_(Greyhawk)

    Quote:
    The Edoiran Compact is a set of rules by which good-aligned faiths can exist in harmony. Edoira never became a deity, but his memory is still honored by many.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:34 am  

    Not the same thing. The Edoiran Compact regulates how several good-aligned priesthoods can cooperate.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:49 am  

    Yeah, the Edoiran compact is an agreement among mortals, and only applies to a few good-aligned churches like Pelor, Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Rao. It's not an agreement among deities.

    The notion of a divine non-interference compact comes from From the Ashes, on page 80 of the Atlas of the Flanaess:

    Quote:
    The Powers of Oerth rarely intercede directly in the affairs of Oerth. They expect their servants to be their right (and left) hands in the world. Clerics, priests, paladins, and less exalted but still valued souls are the agents of Powers, however minor their deeds may be. The Powers have an implicit understanding that if one of them should act too directly, others will act in concert to oppose the meddler, for if all acted in such a manner, Oerth would be destroyed by the Powers. This helps us understand why the demigod Iuz has been able to effect so much evil in the Flanaess. The Prime Material is his home plane, and therefore, he has a direct involvement in its affairs that other Powers do not. The servants must oppose Iuz, not the Powers themselves. One partial exception to this is St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel. Other Powers allow St. Cuthbert to act in limited ways to oppose Iuz. Why they do this, and how far St. Cuthbert is allowed to act, is a matter known only to the Powers.


    And there's more on this subject in Iuz the Evil, page 6:

    Quote:
    Iuz has been able to rise in power so swiftly in part because no great Power of Oerth has struck out against him. There is an important reason for this. Iuz has the Prime Material as his home plane, and Oerth as his home world within that plane. Other Powers dwell elsewhere and look over many worlds on the Prime Material. Thus, they do not give Oerth the undivided attention Iuz does and it is almost a Law of the Powers that they do not intervene directly in the Prime Material to strike at a deity which has its being there. The key word, of course, is directly. Rather, the good Powers of Greyhawk empower their servants to oppose Iuz. To this end, they grant spells and special powers, such as those of priests and the protection from evil and healing skills of paladins. If they did more, then evil deities would regard it as fair game to do more likewise. Oerth would become a battleground of the Powers and might ultimately be destroyed. On Oerth, even the appearance of a Power's avatar is extremely rare. Oerth is a world where mortals suffer, triumph and perish without the Powers favoring or opposing them by direct action. There is one exception to this non-intervention law. St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel has been allowed to strike against Iuz, when his avatar assisted those imprisoning Iuz in 505 CY. That St. Cuthbert would wish to fight Iuz is not unexpected. Of the "martial" lawful good Powers, Heironeous has his great struggle with his hated brother Hextor, while other lawful good Powers are more peaceable and kindly; guiders and protectors rather than warriors. But St. Cuthbert is a doughty, tough fighter, and he hates Iuz's chaotic evil nature. That he was allowed to strike against the Old One is surprising. He could only have done so if powerful evil Powers agreed to this, for all Powers must agree to such an action. Istus could tell us that Incabulos cared not, but that Nerull's croaking voice was decisive in giving permission. One final point bears stressing here. On Oerth, if a Power acts directly with the permission of the other Powers (and the Greater Powers are the ones who really count), that Power and its allies are then indebted to the others. When evil Powers allow a good Power to act directly, good Powers may at some later time have to stand back and allow an evil Power the same opportunity. Small wonder that such direct actions are rare! Whether St. Cuthbert can, or would wish to, appear to combat Iuz again, only Istus can say.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:32 pm  

    Nice, Rasgon. Thanks for that information! Cool
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    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:36 pm  

    I think the evil deity who was permitted to act directly on Oerth in exchange for St. Cuthbert being permitted to help imprison Iuz may have been Vecna, by the way. That would explain why only Iuz could oppose Vecna in Vecna Lives!
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:13 pm  

    Now that's an interesting hypothesis and fits very well. It would explain many things. I like it. Cool
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think the evil deity who was permitted to act directly on Oerth in exchange for St. Cuthbert being permitted to help imprison Iuz may have been Vecna, by the way. That would explain why only Iuz could oppose Vecna in Vecna Lives!


    WGA4 SPOILERS

    The reason only Iuz could oppose Vecna was because the other deities were cut off by Vecna's "mystical web of energy over all of Oerth" (7) that gains strength throughout the adventure (30). By page 43, it takes St Cuthbert "great effort" to send even a vision. By the module's end, all the other gods have to combine their powers to get a message through. My guess is that Mr. Cook simply didn't know the setting well enough to factor in other natives like Wastri, Beory, and Fharlanghn. He either assumed Iuz was the only god inside the fence and able to act or he choose Iuz as the most dramatic option for a finale.

    Also, Vecna didn't need permission from Nerull or anyone else to carry out his schemes; he was able to act with impunity for the same reason that Iuz and Wastri can - he was a demigod native of Oerth. Maybe he traveled around a bit more and didn't rule from a capital city like Iuz (although he did in the past), but Oerth was still technically his home plane.

    I think we can find a better opportunity for Nerull to cash in his IOU.

    EDIT: Yes, the fortress/prison Citadel Cavitius (on the border of Ash and Negative Energy) is referred to as Vecna's "domain" (62), but I think this is on par with Iuz's sequestered soul gem in the Abyss and the PM still counts as home base.
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:48 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Maybe he traveled around a bit more and didn't rule from a capital city like Iuz (although he did in the past), but Oerth was still technically his home plane.


    Kas blasted Vecna "into the lowest reaches of the outer planes" (page 65), and it was there, as a bodiless spirit like so many of the damned, that he began his long climb back into power. Presumably, then, the Lower Planes would still be considered his home realm, unless he chose another (for example, the Plane of Ash).

    Domains of Dread also contains the following passage:

    "Fortunately, Vecna's bid to assume absolute power over the World of Greyhawk failed. In addition, Vecna's plan included a fatal flaw, which resulted in his current imprisonment. While he resided on the Outer Planes, Vecna was safe from the ever hungry Mists of Ravenloft. Because of the spells that his avatar wove in his name, however, Vecna created a tenuous link between himself and the Prime Material Plane. He thought nothing of this at the time; after all, what force would dare to challenge the great and immortal Vecna? Of course, Vecna did not realize the strength of the dark powers and the tenacity of the Mists. When they claimed his fortress, Citadel Cavitius, he found himself pulled along with it."

    This makes it clear that Vecna had a domain somewhere in the Outer Planes that was his primary abode.

    Being from Oerth originally doesn't necessarily make Oerth a god's native plane. Zagyg's plane is listed as both the Prime Material and Concordant Opposition, for example. Rudd dwells in Gladsheim. Ye'Cind's home plane is now Olympus, and Al'Akbar's home plane is the Seven Heavens. Zuoken dwelled somewhere in the Outer Planes (likely Concordant Opposition) before his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk, according to Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. Mayaheine is from a world on the Prime Material Plane (not Oerth, but still the Material Plane), but her home plane is now considered to be the Seven Heavens, according to Warriors of Heaven.

    Iuz wasn't exactly the only possible ally that the player characters could have tapped. There was Wastri, but, I mean, seriously - Wastri? Even if the frog-god could've overpowered Vecna, he's way over in the Vast Swamp and unlikely to care much about the events of the module. It's true that Fharlanghn and of course Beory have potent links to the Prime Material Plane and the world of Oerth in particular that Vecna's web of energy wouldn't have protected him from, but there's where I think the notion of a divine compact serves us fairly well as a (retconny) explanation. Even gods of Oerth like Fharlanghn and Beory must deal with other deities, and I can easily imagine them agreeing not to interfere with the activities of demigods that Nerull has permitted access to Oerth in exchange for allowing St. Cuthbert's intervention earlier. Of course, neither Nerull nor Beory knew exactly what Vecna's plans were until it was too late.

    Sure, it's easy to say, "Beory's a greater deity, and she'd just crush Vecna when he got out of hand," but then Beory becomes a deus ex machina who would just as thoroughly put a stop to any world-threatening event before the PCs get the chance. Kyuss? Demogorgon? Tharizdun? Galactus? Beory smooshes them all. That's not the stuff of epic heroism. Better to assume that Beory, Fharlanghn, and possibly Ehlonna and Obad-hai - or even Wastri - are constrained in some way that rebel gods like Iuz are not.
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:13 pm  

    Another way this might be played is that the compact is only binding upon the signers of it -- and their subservient powers.

    It's not unreasonable to assume that the Compact was "signed" long before Iuz or Vecna were considered gods -- of any type/level. And, therefore, the compact is not binding upon them.

    Are they consider to have "superiors" among the Greater Gods, or are they "independent" of them? If they have no superiors, then presumably, no one could constrain them to obey the terms of the Compact.

    Just thinking. Happy
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:18 am  

    Thanks for the great post, Rasgon.

    Not to cop out, but, even with his home on the Outer Planes, the idea of Vecna being bound by the Compact (back when he was a demigod) doesn't sit well with me. Gods below lesser status seem to have a significant amount of leeway based on the fact that Gygax's quasi-deities traipse around adventuring, deity-level demon lords like Lolth and Zuggtmoy are free to carry out their schemes, and Oerth is already crawling with epic-level characters.

    This doesn't mean that all godlings can do whatever they want - most of them have sponsors and probably had to make promises and forego some of their freedom upon ascension. I see the Compact as a responsibility deities grow into as they gain power, fall into the established hierarchy, want to keep their enemies in check, and shift their attention to the wider multiverse.

    With most of the godlings roped into the Compact by their allies and sponsors, I don't think game balance is lost by allowing (demigod) Vecna to act freely. What's one more villain when we already have the likes of Acererak, Earth Dragon, Tuerny, Iuz running around?

    The inaction of Beory and Fharlanghn can be explained by the fact that they're willing to take a long-term approach. According to Gygax in OJ12, Beory was there to drive back Tharizdun and smite the EGG - she's seen worse (although this conflicts with the more popular Pelor/Tharizdun creation myth). While WGA4's description of Vecna's victory sounds like a serious dark age, it's nothing like the Tharizdun scenario.

    Finally, Nerull's IOU could just as easily be spent when he sent his avatar to search for the Theopart (AoE) or perhaps he secretly aided Kyuss (a one-time follower) in the Age of Worms.
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:44 am  

    Just found this...

    It looks like the LGG codifies the Compact into a specific rule:
    Quote:

    "Finally, no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material Plane of Oerth without a consensus of the majority of the gods of Oerth" (164).

    The exceptions of the PMP-dwelling deities are then listed and the Cuthbert allowances are mentioned.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:52 pm  

    Quote:

    "Finally, no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material Plane of Oerth without a consensus of the majority of the gods of Oerth" (164).


    Ah, and Vecna, being a demigod (at the time), would therefore not have to worry about the compact. St. Cuthbert's entry into the fray should be countered by another lesser/intermediate deity, not a demigod like Vecna.

    There goes that theory!

    Quote:
    The inaction of Beory and Fharlanghn can be explained by the fact that they're willing to take a long-term approach. According to Gygax in OJ12, Beory was there to drive back Tharizdun and smite the EGG - she's seen worse (although this conflicts with the more popular Pelor/Tharizdun creation myth)


    Well, Tharizdun is supposed to have been imprisoned by a coalition of all gods working together (with the exception, maybe, of gods like Nerull whom the Gord series has working for his liberation), so probably Pelor, Rao, Beory, and Boccob (mentioned in Rob Kuntz's Dark Druids version of the myth) would all have been involved.
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:40 pm  

    The LGG also exempts Ehlonna, Olidammara, & Obad-Hai, claiming that they "chose the Prime Material Plane as their native realm rather than one of the outer planes." However, other sources have their realms being in the Beastlands, Ysgard, & the Outlands respectively.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:48 pm  

    Also, it seems like the notion of the compact not applying to PMP deities is a bit shaky, considering that the entire Touv pantheon dwells on the Prime.

    I would wager that the exceptions may be for other reasons, such as:

    1. Not being a "signatory" to the compact (Vecna, and perhaps Lolth, Obad-hai, the Touv pantheon, Olidammara, Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, etc.)

    2. Ascended mortal (again, Vecna, & this may also be why Cuthbert was granted access over say, Pholtus).

    3. "Grandfathered in"--if you were of demigod rank or less at the time of the compact, it doesn't apply (again, Vecna, & perhaps Lolth, Cuthbert, Olidammara, & Ehlonna as well).

    4. Portfolio-based. If your portfolio is heavily Oerth-oriented, then you get an exception (Beory, Obad-Hai, Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, Breeka).
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:58 pm  

    Also, this gets me thinking about when the compact took place.

    Perhaps after the destruction wrought by the Battle of Pesh (a big gash in Beory's side, if one literally believes she is the Oerth), the young gods of Oerth decided uber-powerful divine beings thundering across their favorite vacation spot was bad for business, & drew up a contract, not only to prevent their direct involvement, but also to prevent future mass incursions from the likes of the Wind Dukes or the Abyss. This early act of cooperation would lay the groundwork for the future imprisonment of Tharizdun.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:42 pm  

    I would say that Tharizdun was already imprisoned at the time of the Battle of Pesh, since the 3rd edition Monster Manual IV claims the Elemental Princes of Evil were "too young to remember that ancient war" between Tharizdun and the good and evil deities allied against him. Since some of the Elemental Princes of Evil actually fought at the Battle of Pesh, it must have happened later.

    4th edition's Demonomicon has a somewhat different take, having Tharizdun and the Elemental Princes of Evil fighting alongside each other to invade the Abyss and retrieve a primal shard of pure evil just before Tharizdun's imprisonment. In that version, too, the Battle of Pesh was later: the Queen of Chaos unites many of Tharizdun's former followers under her banner after impressing them by killing Obox-Ob. The Law-Chaos wars immediately follow.

    It seems safe to say that the much, much, much later binding of Tharizdun coinciding with the defeat of his Forgotten Temple in the Yatils was actually the binding of a lesser avatar of the Dark God, as Gary Gygax stated.

    The pact could still have been made after the Battle of Pesh, or before the original Tharizdun incident, or at any other time. It seems a rather informal agreement, subject to continual renegotiation among the greater powers, so it might be difficult to pin-point a precise time when the gods collectively said, "Let's stop interfering directly on the Prime Material Plane." It probably happened in stages, with long periods where the agreement broke down and had to be made anew.

    And Tharizdun himself may actually have kept to the agreement. I don't think we know that the reason he was imprisoned was that he threatened the Material Plane directly. Or, at least, not exclusively, or first. He wanted to tear apart every plane, and they may have imprisoned him before he got around to invading the mortal world.

    I do think, though, that allowing gods like Olidammara, Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, Obad-hai, and Beory to be exceptions to the general rule kind of defeats the whole point in having a pact in the first place. Primarily, that should be to reduce the potential number of deus ex machinas in a Greyhawk campaign so that the heroes can stand on their own. If nature gods can interfere on the Material Plane, it should be only to do things related to their portfolio: create winds, make crops grow, make it snow, and that sort of thing. I know if I were Nerull, I wouldn't put up with Ehlonna roaming about the Flanaess slaying evil, unless Nerull could in turn roam around causing evil. No matter where her home plane is.

    While the Touv pantheon may not have signed on to the pact of the Flanaess gods, they must have their own version of a non-interference agreement, since Hepmonaland (and the Oerth in general) remains undestroyed.

    There has to be as few exceptions as possible, or the powers of the Lower Planes don't have any reason to sign on to the pact at all. Being an ascended mortal is certainly no excuse. Carl Sargent knew what he was doing in this case, and the authors of the LGG probably didn't.


    Last edited by rasgon on Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:16 pm  

    I can only see Beory as a legitimate "exception," given that she IS the Oerth. Or is supposed to be.

    What would basically be, "You can't interfere with yourself," seems a rather stupid and unenforceable restriction.
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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:33 pm  

    "You can't interfere with the gods and mortals who live on your skin" sounds reasonable, though.

    It doesn't have to be "enforceable" in the sense of "We will beat you senseless if you disobey us, Beory." Obviously, the gods're not going to destroy Beory in order to save the world from being destroyed by the gods.

    It's enforceable, though, in the sense of Nerull, Incabulos, Erythnul, Gruumsh, Ilsensine, and other evil deities basically saying, "If you interfere with the course of events, Beory, so will we. If you smoosh Iuz because he's scarring your woods and defiling nature (and he is), then we'll send Pyremius down there and he'll burn and poison everything. And we'll give Telchur free reign to freeze everything - and then Sotillon will counter with waves of heat, and Pelor will have to get involved to try to heal the damage, and then Nerull will just start killing every living thing he sees."

    And Beory says, "Fine. I won't get involved."

    She isn't an exception to the rule.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:38 pm  

    All true. And I didn't say she was an exception, I just said that she is the only exception I would accept. Happy

    I can play my game as I wish. Wink

    Even some of the canonical exceptions that you guys have mentioned "above" are not acceptable to me, even if they're canon. Evil Grin

    Everyone's quick to say: "The rules say this," or "the rules say that."

    To me, they are simply guidelines. I make my own rules.

    But that's just my opinion. And we all have one of those. Wink
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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:03 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I can play my game as I wish.


    Well, that goes without saying (or rather, everyone's already said it a million times, from Gary Gygax on, including me in my recent exchange with Aurdraco). Do what you want, of course. Doesn't mean I won't argue about it.

    I'm not even talking about "canon," since there's certainly canonical support that Beory can interfere directly on the Material Plane if she wants to. I'm just saying that if you allow that, the whole pact would logically unravel.

    So it must not be true. I think the logic even holds in your own game, unless your own game doesn't have any sort of divine pact and it's all a free-for-all.

    Quote:
    Even some of the canonical exceptions that you guys have mentioned "above" are not acceptable to me, even if they're canon.


    Some of them aren't acceptable to me either, actually. Like the idea that nature gods can act with impunity. Or the whole 4th edition myth that I mentioned above, which I would heavily revise.

    I kind of think there shouldn't be any gods around at all during the Battle of Pesh era, even Tharizdun. None of them are born until later. Though that opinion's pretty heretical, and even I'm not completely sold on it.
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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:24 pm  

    See? We don't disagree on the basics! Laughing

    rasgon wrote:
    Doesn't mean I won't argue about it.


    It's nice to discuss matters whith someone who knows what the word "argument" really means.

    rasgon wrote:
    I'm just saying that if you allow that, the whole pact would logically unravel . . . your own game doesn't have any sort of divine pact and it's all a free-for-all.


    There is wisdom in a Divine Pact, I think. But within reason. It's logical to think that the Greater Gods "ganged up" on Tharizdun for the simple reason that he wouldn't abide by the Pact and no single God could oppose him.

    Given "who" and "what" she is, I think it would take more than one single Greater God to oppose Beory as well. I think that, because of their "natures" and the forces they control, some few of the Greater Gods are simply not "balanced" by an opposite God.

    rasgon wrote:
    Some of them aren't acceptable to me either, actually. Like the idea that nature gods can act with impunity.


    "He who brings the rains" -- as it were -- is not violating the Pact by doing so. I agree that Nature Gods would not be an exception to the Pact. They can perform their "duties" without taking direct action against their fellow Gods.

    rasgon wrote:
    I kind of think there shouldn't be any gods around at all during the Battle of Pesh era, even Tharizdun. None of them are born until later. Though that opinion's pretty heretical, and even I'm not completely sold on it.


    I think that, even in Greyhawk "God" exited first. Perhaps something along the lines of "Chaos," or "Night." In Greyhawk's case, it makes sense for it to be Beory -- since she is the Oerth, the place where the Battle of Pesh took place.

    But I like the though of her being the only God at that time. Viewing the Gods as a higher "species," it would make since that they hadn't "come along" yet.

    The "Elemental Princes" could have been the "first experiment," as it were.

    But that's just my thinking. Happy
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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:53 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    There is wisdom in a Divine Pact, I think. But within reason. It's logical to think that the Greater Gods "ganged up" on Tharizdun for the simple reason that he wouldn't abide by the Pact and no single God could oppose him.


    I think, with Tharizdun, meddling with the Material Plane was the least of everyone's concerns. Tharizdun wants to destroy the entire multiverse. What he did or didn't do to one plane means very little compared to that.

    Quote:
    Given "who" and "what" she is, I think it would take more than one single Greater God to oppose Beory as well. I think that, because of their "natures" and the forces they control, some few of the Greater Gods are simply not "balanced" by an opposite God.


    It's not about balance. It's about Beory not wanting her world to become a battleground. Nobody needs to fight Beory in single combat to make a mess of the world she wants to protect. Sure, she could probably send Nerull howling back to Tartarus if she wanted, but then the gloves are off. She wants to avoid conflict, and therefore avoid collateral damage. So she'd sign on to the pact, regardless of her power level compared to the other divinities.

    Quote:
    I think that, even in Greyhawk "God" exited first. Perhaps something along the lines of "Chaos," or "Night."


    Sure, primal forces, unaffected by mortal worship. Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, the elements. I'd consider those to be a very different thing than deities. More inchoate, less self-aware. Not necessarily mindless, but much more primitive.

    Quote:
    In Greyhawk's case, it makes sense for it to be Beory -- since she is the Oerth, the place where the Battle of Pesh took place.


    I think, perhaps, she existed, but needed mortal worship to "wake" her into sentience.

    Like I said, I'm not completely sold on the idea. Even Planescape has deities around in this rough period of time. James Jacobs' "Demonomicon" articles make it clear there weren't any deities in the sense we know them today when the obyriths were first appearing in the Abyss, but by the time of the Battle of Pesh they might well have been around.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:07 pm  

    I can see the lesser gods being squabling Greek-style dieties that make compacts and things.

    However, I cannot see the greater gods being concerned with such. I see the greater gods as the primal forces of nature. Personified by mortals, but primal forces none the less.

    Beory is the Oerth. Pelor is the sun. Procan is the oceans. Incabulos is disease.

    They are removed and beyond concerning about mortals. They have no reason to favor or oppose Iuz, Belvor, or Mordenkainen.
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:54 am  

    rasgon wrote:

    It's enforceable, though, in the sense of Nerull, Incabulos, Erythnul, Gruumsh, Ilsensine, and other evil deities basically saying, "If you interfere with the course of events, Beory, so will we. If you smoosh Iuz because he's scarring your woods and defiling nature (and he is), then we'll send Pyremius down there and he'll burn and poison everything. ...
    ...And Beory says, "Fine. I won't get involved."

    She isn't an exception to the rule.


    Oh, but maybe she is!
    Quote:

    Because of the plots of Iuz and various demons and evil elementals, St. Cuthbert has become actively aware of events (and has indirect assistance from Beory, who resists elemental destruction.)

    -WoG Guide p62

    OleOneEye wrote:

    However, I cannot see the greater gods being concerned with {the compact}.
    ...
    They are removed and beyond concerning about mortals. They have no reason to favor or oppose Iuz, Belvor, or Mordenkainen.


    Right. On the same page, Gygax says -
    Quote:
    In general, the greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity.


    As for when the Compact came into being, why go all the way back to GH apocrypha like Pesh? A huge act of divine intervention happened relatively recently - why not use the "awful, forgotten past" mentioned on the back of the box that started it all? After Dorgha Torgu brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire (Gygax OJ12) the other gods said "enough is enough", banished him, and agreed to the Compact.

    Thus, the cataclysms were catalyst for the Compact.

    One could argue the Compact already existed and Torgu was banished simply for breaking it, but that wouldn't explain his regret and ongoing efforts to redeem himself with his former peers.
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:43 am  

    Well, I'd emphasize "indirect." With direct assistance, I'd imagine Iuz would be banished to the Abyss. So despite being a greater deity, Beory obviously cares about Iuz's destruction. But despite being on her home plane, she doesn't simply crush him, but instead works using Cuthbert as an intermediary. Because the saint has been granted agency she has not.
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:06 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Beory obviously . . . works using Cuthbert . . . because the saint has been granted agency she has not.


    Has it ever been "sufficiently" explained as to why Cuthbert receives this special dispensation from the compact?

    And for all his ability to operate against Iuz directly, it doesn't seem that he's accomplished much.
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:03 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Beory obviously . . . works using Cuthbert . . . because the saint has been granted agency she has not.


    Has it ever been "sufficiently" explained as to why Cuthbert receives this special dispensation from the compact?

    And for all his ability to operate against Iuz directly, it doesn't seem that he's accomplished much.

    Not canon, but my take on it:

    In addition to wisdom, St. Cuthbert is the god of dedication and zeal. Also, he is very much into proselytizing. He needs a foreign boogyman for followers to fear in order for them to keep up their dedication and zeal in opposition to said boogyman.

    Were St. Cuthbert to thwack Iuz down, his flock would get complacent and lazy. Without the fear of the Iuz, it will be much harder to proselytize.
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:42 am  

    Both sound and reasonable, Ole One Eye. Wink

    Good to see you "back." Cool

    Real life crept up on you I suppose?
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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:11 pm  

    Just haven't been interested in Greyhawk for a while.....then I recently started a Hommlet campaign. Last session, PCs made a shaky alliance with Lareth to scout out the temple for him.

    Good to see you're still around.
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:56 pm  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    Good to see you're still around.


    Thanks, my friend. Happy

    And I'm very glad your interest has been rekindled. You've been missed. Cool
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    Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:57 am  

    vestcoat wrote:
    As for when the Compact came into being, why go all the way back to GH apocrypha like Pesh? A huge act of divine intervention happened relatively recently - why not use the "awful, forgotten past" mentioned on the back of the box that started it all? After Dorgha Torgu brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire (Gygax OJ12) the other gods said "enough is enough", banished him, and agreed to the Compact.

    Thus, the cataclysms were catalyst for the Compact.

    One could argue the Compact already existed and Torgu was banished simply for breaking it, but that wouldn't explain his regret and ongoing efforts to redeem himself with his former peers.


    The Battle of Pesh is not apocrypha. It was first mentioned in the 1E DMG (p. 160). Though it had tenuous connections to Oerth in those days, the connections grew stronger until the Plain of Pesh was finally identified in Dungeon Magazine's Age of Worms adventure path. The location was repeated in Fiendish Codex I. However, despite the Gygax pedigree, Dorgha Torgu is apocryphal.

    That said, the Twin Cataclysms could be a VERY good impetus for the compact. OJ 12 says Torgu was "swayed by the evil counsel of Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq, that alien thing which is called an Elder Elemental God." The EEG has, since Return to the ToEE, been identified with Tharizdun. Note that the LGG states that Tharizdun "has not been heard from in over one thousand years," which was about the time of the Twin Cataclysms.
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    Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:43 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Has it ever been "sufficiently" explained as to why Cuthbert receives this special dispensation from the compact?

    And for all his ability to operate against Iuz directly, it doesn't seem that he's accomplished much.


    Yes, in an earlier post in this thread, I quoted from Iuz the Evil, which I think explains things pretty thoroughly.

    St. Cuthbert was given dispensation to aid in the imprisonment of Iuz beneath Castle Greyhawk, in exchange for some equivalent action from the evil powers that has yet to be named (and vestcoat has convinced me that this has nothing to do with Vecna's scheme in Vecna Lives!; when an evil god acts, it will be one above demigod level). He of the Cudgel may also be permitted to act sometime in the future, but he has to proceed carefully, because the evil gods will be allowed to do the same.

    And I think the main reason Sargent added in all those qualifications is so that in the end it's the PCs who make the difference, not the gods.

    Edit: I should add that the most obvious equivalent action would be for an evil god to help Zagig imprison a good-aligned deity beneath the Castle. That fits well with the idea that the imprisoned demigods were of opposing alignments.
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