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    Canonfire :: View topic - Population and Class Levels.
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    Population and Class Levels.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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    Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:19 pm  
    Population and Class Levels.

    I remember reading somewhere discussing the amount of class levels in a givin population somewhere, but cannot find the source for the life of me.

    The maths went something like 10% of a population would have *some* a class level of at least one, and of those class levels, something like 50% would be a level above. Does anyone know the numbers I'm talkin' about?

    I'd appreciate being pointed to the source, thanks.
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    The Golem<br />
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    Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:17 am  

    In 3.5 and Pathfinder everyone has class levels. You would think they would run out of goblins to level up on after awhile. There is no other way to gain levels by the rules.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:23 am  

    I'm not talking about "other ways of gaining levels." I'm not talking about combat. I'm talking about population in a city. It's unfathomable that EVERYONE has class levels, as adventuring and gaining levels is a very special thing. The PCs are elites, "Everyman" is not.


    Givin a specific population, say a city of 20,000, something like 1% or 10% of the population (I forget which) would have some sort of class level. The remaining percentage of that population would be nobodies. They live their life day to day, doing boring day to day things. This is talking about a relatively static thing. This doesn't include transients, such as visiting adventurers -- only the people living there.
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    The Golem<br />
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    Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:18 am  

    3.5 DMG has details on max levels in settlements for various classes and uses the pyramid model i.e. there are twice as many people of the level below and so on. It's only a rough guide though. Personally I don't think every hamlet should have a wizard of any level. I was never a fan of a wizard running the local shoe shop.

    I will probably use the rules as a guide for 4e. In 4e npc level is largely irrelevant but it might restrict the level of rituals or magical potions that are available in the town. Everything else can be determined by what you need for the plot.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:17 am  

    The answer to this question depends greatly upon your rule set. In the 1E DMG, humans are given an average incidence of 1:100 to possess class levels; thus, in your city of 20,000, only 200 people would be classed. I believe the 2E book DUNGEON MASTER™ Option: High-Level Campaigns first introduced the "pyramid scheme" for level distribution, such that there are half as many characters of level x+1 as there are of level x. Using that method, the 200 classed characters in the city of 20,000 would break down roughly as follows:
      100 1st level
      50 2nd level
      25 3rd level
      13 4th level
      6 5th level
      3 6th level
      2 7th level
      1 8th level
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:50 am  

    I'm pretty sure that the 0-level nobodies of earlier editions translate to professional classes in 3.5 ed. The vast majority of your cityfolk would be 1st level commoners, which translates pretty well to earlier editions IMHO. A 1st level commoner will average 2 hp, have no modifier to saving throws, one or two useful skills at most and would know how to use 1 simple weapon, such as a knife or club.

    Other professionals would be your warriors (less talented or poorly trained equivalents to fighters), experts (for those highly skilled professions as opposed to gong farming), aristocrats (for socially adept and educated nobles) and adepts (kind of a shaman or witch doctor concept, not really suitable for urban settings).

    For large cities I tend to use the following hard and fast rules- I've no idea if it comes from a DMG or if I cooked it up over the years by myself. I use a ratio of 5% of the population being of sufficient mettle to have a heroic class, 5% aristocrats, 15% warriors, 20% experts and the remaining 55% as commoners. If you are in a frontier setting, I'd tweak the warrior percentage up and the commoner and expert percentages down and throw in 5% of adepts as well.

    In my game very few people with professional classes will gain more than 2nd or 3rd level tops throughout their entire lives. As a home rule I give them a bonus feat to do with their trade or profession when they reach middle-age. This makes them really good at that one thing that they do every day, but still pretty ordinary at everything else. I've found that this works quite well.

    Hope this helps.

    Damien.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:06 am  

    3E introduced NPC classes for this. If you run 1E or 2E you have those 0 level people which to me do not make much sense. 4E has reintroduced them via the mooks rules. Of all these I like the 3E/PF system the best.

    Here's the obligatory link to my thoughts about NPC classes and levels which has further interesting links to ENWorld NPC class/demography threads and SKR's Theory about Peasants.

    Demographies are a completely other problem/topic. The DMG one does not always make sense but it's fun. (20th level commoner anyone?)
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    Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:33 am  

    I liked the 3E rules for generating class levels down to the last level 1 Commoner as it always threw up something interesting about a town or village to use as a story hook. One of my big disappointments in 4E was that something similar was not included although 4E is mostly focused more toward structured and balanced adventure path type campaigns rather than sandboxes.

    Anyhoo, I knocked up the following for 4E based on the 3E DMG and ELH tables and covering classes up to PHB2. All others in the community can be assumed to be minions of various types. Steal, ignore or critique as you see fit:

    Community Size Modifier
    Thorp -3
    Hamlet -2
    Village -1
    Small Town +0
    Large Town +4
    Small City +8 (roll twice)
    Large City +12 (roll three times)
    Metropolis +16 (roll four times)
    Planar Metropolis +20 (roll six times)

    On a d% roll of 96-00 a thorp ot hamlet adds +10 to ranger, druid or shaman.

    Class Character Level
    Avenger 1d3 + modifier
    Barbarian 1d4 + modifier
    Bard 1d6 + modifier
    Druid 1d6 + modifier
    Cleric 1d6 + modifier
    Fighter 1d8 + modifier
    Invoker 1d6 + modifier
    Paladin 1d3 + modifier
    Ranger 1d3 + modifier
    Rogue 1d8 + modifier
    Shaman 1d4 + modifier
    Sorcerer 1d4 + modifier
    Warden 1d6 + modifier
    Warlock 1d4 + modifier
    Warlord 1d8 + modifier
    Wizard 1d4 + modifier


    Last edited by Flint on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:06 am  

    Flint -- Wow! Shocked

    Thanks for that outstanding effort! Wink Cool Happy

    Of course, its easy to see that everyone on this thread put forth considerable effort. Thanks one and all! Evil Grin
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:15 am  

    Being a fan of 1st and especially 2nd edition, I pretty much agree with the reasoning behind the 2E High Level Campaigns book that DMPrata mentioned. I like to think of PCs as special, or at least special in the fact that they have seen and done more than the ordinary villager. While any 17 year old farmer can probably fight off a wolf or similar predator, I doubt he could hold his own for long against a Troll or even most nasty monster. PCs start off with little training and experience, but after fighting fantastical monsters of varying powers and abilities I think they evolve into heroic characters. For instance, there is quite a bit of difference between someone who can pick up a long sword and swing it and someone who can deftly use it to destroy a troll or dragon. I think PCs are special and very rare, particularly at levels above say 8th or 9th. PCs of very high level (12th and above) should be so rare that most people have never met or seen one. They should be the stuff of legends and the (secret) rulers and powerbrokers of the world. That's my two cents anyway.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:21 pm  

    Many people see a problem with 3.x "o-level professionals".

    A 10th level Master Blacksmith has nearly the fighting ability and hit points of a 7th level fighter. That is pretty awesome for a dude that spends most of his time in a shed swinging a hammer in mostly the same motion over and over, let alone the 10th level Sage that sits among musty tomes all day, most every day, that can do the same. Better not be disrespectful, or that walking stick the Sage carries just might be the death of you! Laughing

    Granted, Experts of 10th level will be somewhat rare, but overall, Experts(who are definitely a little bit more than "capable in their own field") are too powerful to represent specialized tradesfolk around the average city or village. They really just need to have their hit points and attack ability cut down to that of Commoners. If they are going to have any combat ability, that is what Warrior(for those Commoners/Experts with a soldiering or local thug background) and Aristocrat levels(for those Commoners/Experts with the wealth to own/train with/legally carry weapons) are for.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:11 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Many people see a problem with 3.x "o-level professionals".

    A 10th level Master Blacksmith has nearly the fighting ability and hit points of a 7th level fighter. That is pretty awesome for a dude that spends most of his time in a shed swinging a hammer in mostly the same motion over and over, let alone the 10th level Sage that sits among musty tomes all day, most every day, that can do the same. Better not be disrespectful, or that walking stick the Sage carries just might be the death of you! Laughing


    This is simply not true. They have the same BAB (basic attack bonus or to-hit for you old schoolers), yes, but certainly not the same fighting ability. A 10th level rogue or bard has the same BAB as a Ftr7 too and no one is arguing that a 10th level rogue or bard has too much combat abilities or can beat a 7th level fighter in straight combat.

    With the fighter's higher HD, different ability point allocation (probably more STR, CON than the sage but not neccesarily than the blacksmith), more and different feats, weapon and armour proficiencies and higher fortitude save, I'm sure a Ftr7 will whip most Exp10's behind in combat. And for the blacksmith I find it makes some sense to give him some combat ability. Remember it is the same basic combat ability that a bard or rogue gets.

    Quote:
    Granted, Experts of 10th level will be somewhat rare, but overall, Experts(who are definitely a little bit more than "capable in their own field") are too powerful to represent specialized tradesfolk around the average city or village. They really just need to have their hit points and attack ability cut down to that of Commoners. If they are going to have any combat ability, that is what Warrior(for those Commoners/Experts with a soldiering or local thug background) and Aristocrat levels(for those Commoners/Experts with the wealth to own/train with/legally carry weapons) are for.


    Why should they be more rare than a Ftr10 or say a Wizard10 ?

    Also I'm not saying the expert class is perfect as is, but imo it is definitely better to have NPC classes than not. If you want to you can give the expert a low BAB same as the commoner, but you could apply the same argument to rogues or bards, if they are going to have any combat ability that is what fighter levels are for. Do you think rogues or bards should have a wizard bab?

    Try and build some example NPCs. And that is imo the best point for 3E's system: you can build them by the same rules as the PCs are built. 1E and 4E basically say if you need a mook to have some ability just cheat and give it to him.

    See also the thread i linked too above for some example builds or this post for some more extreme examples.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:08 pm  

    I disagree with you there, Thanael. I think the difference between a blacksmith expert of 10th level and a rogue or bard of 10th level is quite simply the fact that even a bard or rogue who has reached that level has fought on a fairly regular basis, whereas a blacksmith may have practiced with others on the village green every sunday or whatnot but probably never picked up his weapon with the intent of killing someone or thing. There is a huge difference between the two IMHO, as having the experience and will to land that blow that you have practised a thousand times is (or at least should be) part of the base attack bonus.

    As far as a 10th level expert goes, you can only get so much experience in life by doing the same repetitive thing day after day. I'm not just talking about the "manly art of biff" here. I mean that most of the professional classes do not challenge themselves and expand their horizons the way a hero class does and that is why a 10th level expert should be rare in the extreme. 2nd level expert blacksmiths with a skill focus in blacksmithing on the other hand, should be rather more common.

    I think making the experts base attack bonus and hit points more in line with a commoner is quite acceptable. I also think that the Unearthed Arcana flaws can help here as well. However, why not just make the vast majority of your proffessionals low-level? It takes very little time to put one together that way.

    Anyway, apologies for the rambling. I'm a bit pressed for time today...

    Damien.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:05 am  

    I am completely on target. With regard to Experts and adventurers, there is one major difference between them- adventurers actually go into places where they will likely be attacked, and do so purposely. They will fight stuff; even wizards and bards. They don't just read books and play instruments(these are not your average bookish nerds and band geeks here Wink). Your average Expert will not likely do this at all, ever, and yet they have the combat ability(in the form of a middle range BAB advancement and Hit Points one rank above the most basic level) to function on par, or better than, more than half of the adventurer classes when it comes to basic combat abilities. Anything wrong with that picture?

    As to basic combat ability, what I said is perfectly true. Sure, a fighter will be likely be stronger than a sage, usually, but it is not even a requirement. Stats and feats are fairly irrelevant, considering the lowly Sage can have those things too. An Expert just needs more experience to get to those upper levels with equivalent combat abilities of the adventuring classes, but they can, even though it is not to their profession's purpose whatsoever.

    Nobody is arguing about a 10th level Rogue or Cleric having having the BAB of 7ths level fighter because they are adventurers, not common folk skilled at a particular mundane task that requires long years of training/study, and that has nothing to do with combat ability. Clerics are militant priests, and Rogues are clever, sneaky killers, the latter of which make it a habit of doing harm to people often enough that they have a special skill which allows them to do it even better. Consequently, some fighting ability is built into their basic class structure. Experts will have as much reason to use weapons as a Wizard will, if that, and will likely have less necessity to do so, and yet they have the same level of built-in fighting ability that trained killers like Clerics and Rogues do.

    But I guess I am just crazy when I say that that the basic combat training of the average blacksmith, sage, or lawyer should not be on par with trained killers like Clerics and Rogues. Razz Wink

    More to the point of the thread, I could swear that an old Dragon magazine issue had an article on populated areas that gave a breakdown of the relative number and levels of NPCs with class levels for each locale. Must be 1e or 2e era Dragon though(probably 1e). No idea which issue number it is though.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:06 am  

    So you're saying they should have a wizard's BAB, right? OK I can see that. But you can't turn this into an argument that NPC classes are generally a bad idea.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:03 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    The answer to this question depends greatly upon your rule set. In the 1E DMG, humans are given an average incidence of 1:100 to possess class levels


    1E DMG p.88 "Typical Inhabitants"
    The bulk of the people met on an adventure or in an inhabited area...will be average folk, with no [adventuring] profession...and no special abilities...

    1E DMG p. 35 "Number of Prospective Henchmen"
    Human and half-orc characters suitable for level advancement are found at a ratio of 1 in 100. Other races have an incidence of 1 in 50.

    I have made tables for my personal use much like those of Flint, but set up for 1E/2E.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:43 pm  

    The debate about the BAB of Experts made me wonder if it almost might be better to come up with a basic range that is randomly determined, unrelated to Expert level. Sounds crazy, but bear with me. I agree that a 10th level Expert blacksmith won't have the same BAB as a PC/NPC of an adventuring class, but if he gets in a punch-up down the pub every Freeday he's probably going to be a pretty awesome brawler, and may very well be able to clean the clock of lesser adventuring class characters. Of course, how to determine that, why not randomly? The other idea is that there almost needs to be a divide between non-adventuring experts and adventuring experts. By adventuring, I don't mean going in dungeons under deserted wizard towers and killing ghouls, but say some guy is a merchant who regularly travels through bandit-ridden territory, he's probably going to be pretty adept at taking care of himself in combat. I hold the view that adventuring class characters are special, a cut above the average populace or even very skilled craftsmen, and this is reflected among other ways by their combat ability.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:01 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    So you're saying they should have a wizard's BAB, right? OK I can see that. But you can't turn this into an argument that NPC classes are generally a bad idea.


    I never did. The basic NPC classes are decent enough. I only said that Experts are a bit overqualified in combat with regards to both hit points and BAB. There is no need(or reason) for them to have better Hit Dice or a better BAB than a Commoner does. That is all.

    As for what the average Joe Schmoe brawler can do, his few levels of Commoner might simply be bolstered by a good Strength and Constitution, or perhaps even a level of Warrior or Rogue(back stab = dirty fighter Wink). This is not your average commoner though, but more of a standout NPC tough guy Commoner. "Bad Bart" will thrash the local Commoners, but a trained Fighter of equivalent level will work him over pretty bad. These types of NPCs are fun to think about though. Cool
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:53 am  

    I would point out also, that Btb 1st edition, there's nothing to stop you from creating a 0-level Blacksmith which fights as a 3rd level Fighter and has 20 hit points and 5 weapon proficiencies. Look at Sages, they are after all 0-level types. 0-level most emphatically does not mean 2-5 or 2-7 hits, although the vast majority of them will have that range of hits. It simply means the NPC has zero level in any of the adventuring classes, and since those are the only classes in the DMG, he doesn't have ANY classes. It doesn't mean he cannot have special abilities, extra hits, skills or whatever. The DM is supposed to come up with those, and modules are full of 0-level NPCs that do not conform to any specific rule.
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    Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:41 pm  

    I tend to take a more pragmatic approach to NPCs. For example, if my PCs are higher-level, then I have no problem adjusting the NPCs upward a bit, especially if the players want them to enter a dungeon, antagonize them, or otherwise expose them to danger. And if during a later campaign I decide to use the same NPC with lower-level characters, then I have no problem adjusting them back down. After all, the NPCs are only there to enhance the game for my players, and it's all relative (like monsters - you wouldn't waste time by forcing your 15th-level players to wander around killing kobolds just because "the rules" say they're the only monsters that should be in the area, would you?).
    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:06 pm  

    I commend everyone for this well-dicussed topic but unfortunately I have a need to point out this thread must surely belong in one of the edition forums and not in Greyhawk-General. For example, is the source that golem is looking for a Greyhawk source or just a general D&D rules one? I'm just sayin'. Now if somebody can mention something Greyhawk related to the topic then I can go back to whatever it is I do. Carry on. ;)
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:49 pm  

    Nah. This can stay in General Discussion, as it is a general topic(though I've been a bit off topic) that crosses editions/systems. That topic of course is "How many NPCs are in your average village/hamlet/town/city/capitol, and what class levels/abilities(or whatever edition) do they have?

    Based on the-golem's comment regarding EVERYONE having class levels as being unfathomable, I don't think I am making too big of an assumption that he is talking about 1e/2e, and not 3.X where there are the Commoner, Expert, and Noble classes for NPCs.

    This is a good topic of discussion for any game edition though, and if more information can be found on this topic it will be useful to most anyone, regardless of what game system they use.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:22 am  

    For those particularly interested in the topic, the first piece I ever read on this was for 1E AD&D (or possibly OD&D) and was published in White Dwarf 29 and 30 and the Best of White Dwarf Articles III (which was where I saw it).

    Not sure if second hand copies of these are out there anywhere as both publications are 25 and more years old but the essential premise was to assess realistic income for craftsmen and merchants in communities and equate this to XPs to give class levels.

    The two part article is entitled Designing a Quasi Medieval Society for D&D and well worth a read if you can track the issues down.
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    Sat Mar 27, 2010 6:14 am  

    While some don't like the 3.x Expert having a decent BAB, I disagree. By the time that blacksmith has gotten to 10th level, he's probably fought off his fair share of local small-time monsters, been in a few bar fights, swung the swords he makes, etc. If the Expert is a merchant, he's probably fought off a few bandits over the years. If a sage, he's probably read about combat techniques unknown to most, defended his library from those wishing to burn the evil books, etc. I.E., I don't really worry about it because with the non-elite array, most NPCs are going to suck at anything they are not specialized to do. If your 5th level fighter picks a fight with the city's 10th level blacksmith and gets trounced, that's just bad dice. However, I wouldn't be against a DM who modified the Expert to have the Wizard BAB progression.

    I like the 3.X DMG Population creation breakdown, I used it extensively for LG. However, sometimes it doesn't make sense. I'm fine with adepts in human towns, I consider them to be midwives and witches. But paladins in every BK town? Negative, not on my watch. As a DM, just mix and match until you feel the town's flavor is right.
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    Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:17 pm  

    Question about NPC's with NPC-classes...
    How do they gain experience?
    3rd-level blacksmith has minimum of 3000 XP which means that he has killed single-handedly about 20 orcs!
    So how do they gain this XP and can PC's gain XP in the same way?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:51 pm  

    Overcoming challenges by successfully using your abilities.

    I personally do not like giving out xp only for killing things much. It's almost as bad as gaining xp by gold pieces was.

    Even in 2E there were story bonus xp, and class secific xp. I.e. every class can gain xp by successfully using certain class features or doing certain things. Killing or defeating a monster in combat for example might earn a fighter extra xp, but researching a new spell, or stealing stuff might earn xp for a wizard or rogue respectively.


    Last edited by Thanael on Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:53 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    Overcoming challenges.

    I personally do not like giving out xp only for killing things much. It's almost as bad as gaining xp by gold pieces was.


    Can you give me some example of average challenge a blacksmith overcomes to eventually reach 3rd-level?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:36 am  

    Average? No. But here are some ideas for which actions an expert blacksmith might gain xp: forging a masterwork item, training an apprentice, killing some rats, repairing a complex item.

    Read the very interesting Commoner Campaign thread on wizards boards for an example of challenges that a peasant might encounter.

    From your earlier comment about the 20 orcs I see that you are a 2E or earlier player, where an orc is worth 150 xp flat. Do you think a 20th level figher with an AC that is unhittable by said orc should still gain those xp by slaying him even though the orc can't even hit him and he will hit him on a 2? Do you think traversing a dungeon with lots of traps but no monsters should gain a Rogue PC xp ?

    3E introduced Challenge Ratings (CR) for each creature but also rules for calculating the CR of several creatures (it doesn't simply add up, a giant and an orc are not much more of a challenge than a giant alone) and for encounters and traps. It's not much of a leap to assign CR to such activities as I listed above. 3E also has rules for how much xp you gain for an encounter with a certain CR in relation to your level. A 20th level fighter would gain no xp at all for defeating a lone orc.

    Though most people wouldn't want to be that specific for NPCs. Instead some proposed 1xp per day average or 300 xp per year for earning a living and surviving the year. Check out the Commoner Advancement thread on ENWorld or Sean K. Reynolds' "Theory about peasants" for two such systems. And check out the NPC over a lifetime threads that I linked to in this post to see what kinds of NPCs this gets you. I also link to some higher than average NPC builds and i think those are fun too. Of course all this climaxes in the epic commoner that imho is also fun.

    And finally: Yes i think PCs should also be able to gain XP this way. In a way they already do (even in 2E) as there are class-specific things that can earn you xp. But I would also award xp to a fighter for crafting a masterwork item. Also if a PC would want to semi retire and age his PC for a few years I would give him 300 xp per year for keeping a low profile and doing everyday things. But if they are actually adventuring those few xp will be vastly overshadowed by the other xp that they earn.
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    Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    Question about NPC's with NPC-classes...
    How do they gain experience?
    3rd-level blacksmith has minimum of 3000 XP which means that he has killed single-handedly about 20 orcs!
    So how do they gain this XP and can PC's gain XP in the same way?


    Does a Rogue gain XP when he uses Disable Device, Opens a Lock, or when he Gathers Information from the city low life or Bluffs his way past a guard in a clever way(i.e through roleplaying)?

    Does a Bard gain XP when he uses Bardic Lore to find out about something, particularly if he comes up with a clever way of finding that information(i.e. through roleplaying)?

    Does a Blacksmith gain XP for successfully using his Craft skills to create a particular challenging item, or a whole slew of less challenging items year after year after year after year?

    Getting the idea? Wink

    If a DM only awards XP for killing monsters, they need to expand their horizons a bit in my opinion. Happy
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    Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:30 am  

    Hmm, ok... So I can just get some Craft or Professional-skill to my PC, then announce that he will have two years of vacation from adventuring and use his skills to slowly get enough XP to raise a level or two... That's nice! Wink
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    Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:44 am  

    Sure. As a DM, I'd allow you to do that to gain a level of the Expert class. If your PC has the Profession (soldier) skill, I may even allow you to gain 1 level of Fighter.
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    Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:41 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    Hmm, ok... So I can just get some Craft or Professional-skill to my PC, then announce that he will have two years of vacation from adventuring and use his skills to slowly get enough XP to raise a level or two... That's nice! Wink

    Yes. But I'd role-play the getting the job, and I'd come up with some table to generate possibilities, as in how challenging the job was, important events and so on. It would be difficult - in my opinion - to earn more than 500-1000xp per year just by working at the job.To earn more than this would require some risk, the chance to create some masterwork job, with the symmetrical chance of blowing it completely and going for a few weeks at no xp... etc...

    Midkemia had an amazing supplement which I've always used, Cities , which included a downtime generator: each week of downtime spent in a city was played with a series of possibilities for the PC: getting jobs (earning money and xp), going on simple missions, meeting people and making contacts, enemies, friends, romantic possibilities and so on through a random generation method. It's super-cool and addresses in part the idea for PCs to spend time doing something else. We used to play a sessions of downtime every once in awhile, for example when the MU in the party had to cool his feet for a couple of weeks or more to learn spells and train or whatever, the other PCs would go over the random event tables and generate stuff.

    It is possibly a little too random for modern day players, and it requires a lot of improvisation ability on the part of the DM, but then I'm an old guy who has been doing this stuff since 1981 and I don't mind! I highly recommend the supplement, but it's hard to find these days, I think.
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    Wed May 12, 2010 12:52 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Many people see a problem with 3.x "o-level professionals"...


    -It's one of the things which convinced me to accept D&D 3.5. It was simpler than all the different 0 level types who could eventually become 1st level.

    Cebrion wrote:
    A 10th level Master Blacksmith has nearly the fighting ability and hit points of a 7th level fighter. That is pretty awesome for a dude that spends most of his time in a shed swinging a hammer in mostly the same motion over and over, let alone the 10th level Sage that sits among musty tomes all day, most every day, that can do the same...


    -First, why not? He's 10th level!

    Second, Thanael has a point:

    Thanael wrote:
    This is simply not true. They have the same BAB (basic attack bonus or to-hit for you old schoolers), yes, but certainly not the same fighting ability. A 10th level rogue or bard has the same BAB as a Ftr7 too and no one is arguing that a 10th level rogue or bard has too much combat abilities or can beat a 7th level fighter in straight combat...


    ...as for:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...With regard to Experts and adventurers, there is one major difference between them- adventurers actually go into places where they will likely be attacked, and do so purposely. They will fight stuff; even wizards and bards. They don't just read books and play instruments...


    -It might be a difference in how we award experience points. That Expert must have gone around the block a few times to be 10th level. The sage would have to be the Greyhawk equivalent of Indiana Jones (Keoland Jones?!).

    I'm in line with Aurdaco:

    aurdraco wrote:
    ...By the time that blacksmith has gotten to 10th level, he's probably fought off his fair share of local small-time monsters, been in a few bar fights, swung the swords he makes, etc. If the Expert is a merchant, he's probably fought off a few bandits over the years. If a sage, he's probably read about combat techniques unknown to most, defended his library from those wishing to burn the evil books, etc...


    ...although I'd say those Exp10's probably did a lot more than that.

    ...same thing with Damien's objection:

    Damien wrote:
    ...I think the difference between a blacksmith expert of 10th level and a rogue or bard of 10th level is quite simply the fact that even a bard or rogue who has reached that level has fought on a fairly regular basis, whereas a blacksmith may have practiced with others on the village green every sunday or whatnot...


    -Again, in my campaign, that blacksmith probably won't get past Exp1 practicing on the village green a few times a year, and certainly not past Exp2. His reward for that practice is that he is an Exp1 in the first place, rather than a Com1. Very few people ever make it to Lvl4, even in the PC classes. In the old D&D, a Ftr4 was literally called a Hero, and I still take that as a cue.

    Cebrion wrote:
    Granted, Experts of 10th level will be somewhat rare, but overall, Experts(who are definitely a little bit more than "capable in their own field") are too powerful to represent specialized tradesfolk around the average city or village. They really just need to have their hit points and attack ability cut down to that of Commoners. If they are going to have any combat ability, that is what Warrior(for those Commoners/Experts with a soldiering or local thug background) and Aristocrat levels(for those Commoners/Experts with the wealth to own/train with/legally carry weapons) are for.


    -An Expert is usually supposed to be a "quick study", and sharper than the average Commoner, combat skills included. However, it might be a tad excessive. If I was to rewrite the rules, I would take away the Expert's "Light Armor" and "Simple Weapon" proficiencies, change their saving throws to coincide with Commoners, then substitute a weapon proficiency in a single simple weapon, and give them two bonus "Skill Focus" feats of their choice, plus another bonus feat of their choice. While I was at it, I'd take away the simple weapon proficiency from the 1st level Commoner. Then, I'd take away the "Heavy" and "Medium Armor" and the "Martial Weapon" proficiencies from the 1st level Warrior (who is supposed to have limited training, after all- when did he learn to wear platemail?), and substitute a single martial weapon proficiency, and let them have two "Fighter" feats of their choic, plus another bonus feat. But it's not that big a deal to me, so I stick with those rules as they are.

    I use the official levels in the population system from the 3.5 D&D DMG which Flint refers:

    Flint wrote:

    Community Size Modifier
    Thorp -3
    Hamlet -2
    Village -1
    Small Town +0
    Large Town +4
    Small City +8 (roll twice)
    Large City +12 (roll three times)
    Metropolis +16 (roll four times)
    Planar Metropolis +20 (roll six times)

    On a d% roll of 96-00 a thorp ot hamlet adds +10 to ranger, druid or shaman.

    Class Character Level
    Avenger 1d3 + modifier
    Barbarian 1d4 + modifier
    Bard 1d6 + modifier
    Druid 1d6 + modifier
    Cleric 1d6 + modifier
    Fighter 1d8 + modifier
    Invoker 1d6 + modifier
    Paladin 1d3 + modifier
    Ranger 1d3 + modifier
    Rogue 1d8 + modifier
    Shaman 1d4 + modifier
    Sorcerer 1d4 + modifier
    Warden 1d6 + modifier
    Warlock 1d4 + modifier
    Warlord 1d8 + modifier
    Wizard 1d4 + modifier


    Except I have a chart to tone down the NPC type classes, and I often give anyone with more than one NPC level a class level.

    e.g. I take a roll of Adp5, knock her down to Adp3, then make her an Adp2/Cl1, or War6 becomes a War1/Ftr3, and Exp10 becomes Exp4/Wiz1 if a sage or Exp4/Ftr1 if a blacksmith.

    Sutemi wrote:
    Question about NPC's with NPC-classes...
    How do they gain experience?
    3rd-level blacksmith has minimum of 3000 XP which means that he has killed single-handedly about 20 orcs!
    So how do they gain this XP and can PC's gain XP in the same way?


    -The crux!

    Thanael wrote:
    ...I personally do not like giving out xp only for killing things much. It's almost as bad as gaining xp by gold pieces was.

    Even in 2E there were story bonus xp, and class secific xp...


    Exactly!

    I DM 3.5, but I use the story points in AD&D2 by cutting the kill/cripple/capture XP by half, and then having story points availiable for completing the mission. I don't give out the specific class XPs per se, but those who use them e.g. someone who casts a spell or a rogue who uses a skill will have probably contributed to mission completion, and will get a share of the story points.

    I think 1XP per day just for being alive is a little excessive, but I allow XPs for essentially non-lethal training (think fencing, wrestling, boxing, spellcasting), although it's nowhere as high as the real thing, and there is a limit per day. You can also get XP for surviving weather conditions (from the 3.5D&D DMG guide), and even surving a 3 day heat wave or blizzard might get you 4 or 5 XP.
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    Thu May 20, 2010 10:24 am  

    Some excellent thoughts on 3.x demographics from Sepulchrave @ ENWorld: http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/203642-vanilla-essence-1e-demographics-implied-setting.html
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    Thu May 20, 2010 8:56 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -First, why not? He's 10th level!


    Because he is not a trained combatant, and so shouldn't represent one. Now, what could be done is build in a difference between physically demanding trades and those that are not, but that is a can of worms in and of itself. Blacksmiths are at least swinging a hammer and making tools that double as weapons(they are not skilled weapon smiths after all). However, blacksmiths are not the massive brawny monstrosities that every single fantasy novel/adventure/whatever seems to want to make them.

    Beyond that we have other 10th level experts. Sages are a good example of an Expert who shouldn't be able to fight as well as a very skilled fighter, but we could have a merchant, a vintner, or a cabinet maker too. None of these are likely a "quick study", such that at the point that they have attained mastery of their field(10th level or so), they are skilled fighters because, apparently, they have been hooked into the Matrix and simply say "Woah. I'm a 7th level Fighter." in that oh so not awesome Keannu Reeves voice. Laughing

    I prefer what you described; that being that an Expert is just an Expert, but that Blacksmith who actually does know how to knock heads will have some Fighter levels in addition to his Expert levels.

    [quote="jamesdglick"]Second, Thanael has a point:

    Thanael wrote:
    This is simply not true. They have the same BAB (basic attack bonus or to-hit for you old schoolers), yes, but certainly not the same fighting ability. A 10th level rogue or bard has the same BAB as a Ftr7 too and no one is arguing that a 10th level rogue or bard has too much combat abilities or can beat a 7th level fighter in straight combat...
    jamesdglick wrote:


    Thanael would have a point if NPC classes were equivalent to PC classes. They are not, hence Thanael's comparison is not relevant. He'd also have a point if Experts actually trained to kill people using weapon like a Rogue does. Even a Torturer/Executioner will not have much fight9ingabiulity of any kind, as they are not exactly learning how to fight; just how to injure/kill something that is helpless. Kind of different when you have to swing a weapon against something that is swinging back. So, reasoning that Experts are comparable to Rogues, and both are equitable when compared to Fighters is beyond flawed.

    as for:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...With regard to Experts and adventurers, there is one major difference between them- adventurers actually go into places where they will likely be attacked, and do so purposely. They will fight stuff; even wizards and bards. They don't just read books and play instruments...


    -It might be a difference in how we award experience points. That Expert must have gone around the block a few times to be 10th level. The sage would have to be the Greyhawk equivalent of Indiana Jones (Keoland Jones?!).


    Nah, we all know that Indiana Jones is no NPC- he is a hero and so a PC. He's legendary;something like a Fighter6/Rogue4/Sage 8(we'll have to use the NPC Sage class as there is no Sage equivalent PC class).

    jamesdglick wrote:
    I'm in line with Aurdaco:

    aurdraco wrote:
    ...By the time that blacksmith has gotten to 10th level, he's probably fought off his fair share of local small-time monsters, been in a few bar fights, swung the swords he makes, etc. If the Expert is a merchant, he's probably fought off a few bandits over the years. If a sage, he's probably read about combat techniques unknown to most, defended his library from those wishing to burn the evil books, etc...


    ...although I'd say those Exp10's probably did a lot more than that.


    First off, Blacksmiths don't make swords. They make simple iron tools and weapons. This effectively limits them to making many, but not all, simple weapons- axes, spears, polearms, morning stars, maces, mauls- things usually with a wooden haft and a pointy, blunt, or sharp tip/head on it that are mostly similar to tools they make in the normal course of practicing their trade. Plus knives, daggers, and other eating implements. Blacksmiths don't spend their time making weapons though. They spend their time making carp-tons of nails, pots, pans, horseshoes, grates, farm tools, etc., and repairing such. They don't literally/purposely provide arms to their community, nor do they have the time to practice fighting. Especially the big brawny fantasy novel Blacksmith types. Who the heck is going to fight one of those? An entire town of stupid people, every week, whenever the giant Blacksmith goes into a bar?

    "There he is lads- the giant Blacksmith! He's broken nearly every bone in my body at one time or another, and beaten my face in well over a hundred times now, but this time, this time i am going to take him down!"
    Laughing

    And then there is the fact that nobody in their right mind is going to want to pick a fight with guy who provides them with their tools and fixes the implements that are necessary for most people's daily survival. Yes, Blacksmiths tend not to be screwed with for a variety or reasons, as a community is indeed very lucky to have them. So, audraco's example is beyond flawed too. :D

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -An Expert is usually supposed to be a "quick study", and sharper than the average Commoner, combat skills included. However, it might be a tad excessive. If I was to rewrite the rules, I would take away the Expert's "Light Armor" and "Simple Weapon" proficiencies, change their saving throws to coincide with Commoners, then substitute a weapon proficiency in a single simple weapon, and give them two bonus "Skill Focus" feats of their choice, plus another bonus feat of their choice. While I was at it, I'd take away the simple weapon proficiency from the 1st level Commoner. Then, I'd take away the "Heavy" and "Medium Armor" and the "Martial Weapon" proficiencies from the 1st level Warrior (who is supposed to have limited training, after all- when did he learn to wear platemail?), and substitute a single martial weapon proficiency, and let them have two "Fighter" feats of their choice, plus another bonus feat. But it's not that big a deal to me, so I stick with those rules as they are.


    Emphasis mine.

    Queue Samuel L. Jackson voice:

    "A man knowledgeable in the process of fermentation and well practiced in the stomping of grapes, however skilled or a "quick study" he may be, will not be the equivalent of a !#$%@!?! 7th level Drunken Master because he's a !#$%@!?! 10th level Vintner!"


    The only way that will happen is if he is also a 10th level Monk. I like this example the best! Laughing
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    Sat May 22, 2010 11:00 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    -First, why not? He's 10th level!

    Because he is not a trained combatant, and so shouldn't represent one.


    -An Exp10 Blacksmith doesn't have the combat skills of a Ftr10, so he doesn't.

    It might just be a matter of degree of "skill" we are disagreeing about, or it might be about how easy it is to get to Exp10. Even if you allow for non-violent danger XPs (dangerous weather, natural phenomona, or disease), throw in some hard training that gets some XP, and then throw in participation in some sort of Manhattan Project-like magical construction, he still wouldn't make it to Exp6 before he's 70, at which point he's not exactly at the top of his game physically. That's why I think a guy who's Exp10 would have a phenomonal amount of combat experience anyway, explaining his skill.

    Cebrion wrote:

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -It might be a difference in how we award experience points. That Expert must have gone around the block a few times to be 10th level. The sage would have to be the Greyhawk equivalent of Indiana Jones (Keoland Jones?!).

    Nah, we all know that Indiana Jones is no NPC- he is a hero and so a PC. He's legendary;something like a Fighter6/Rogue4/Sage 8(we'll have to use the NPC Sage class as there is no Sage equivalent PC class)...


    -He has to be an NPC- it would be hard to get a D&D player to ever really limit themselves by a fear of snakes! Razz

    Sometimes I like converting charachters from books, movies, or history, and converting them into D&D (changing technology, and adding magical or phantasic elements). Geek Check!

    IIRC, using the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, he was:

    An apprentice archeaologist in the American Southwest (Expert of the Sage variety);

    A hanger-on during the Mexican Revolution (Rogue?);

    An archeologist in southern Africa (Expert- Sage);

    An officer in the Force Publique in Tanganika (Figther, or perhaps Ranger?);

    A pilot in the Lafayette Escadrille (probably Expert of the transport-using variety, or maybe Fighter);

    A psychological operations operative in Italy (Rogue, or perhaps Expert of the Spy sort), all by 1919, when he would have been in mid mid-20s. I won't even try to calculate the experience points. Laughing
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    Sat May 22, 2010 2:51 pm  

    I think perhaps some of us are missing the point. If we look at Oerth as being in any way "realistic", then class levels of any kind just don't make sense. It is entirely preposterous to think that one human being can be so massively, personally, more powerful than any other. Depending on the game system you're using, it's entirely possible to have a character so powerful that he can be drugged unconscious, tied up, and set upon by a gang of ninjas using enchanted, envenomed katanas, and still walk away from it relatively unscathed. Even 3.5e allows for the possibility that a character can be stabbed in his sleep and still survive (though it's a lot less likely).

    With this in mind, it simply doesn't make sense to try and explain how or why Xth level non-adventuring NPCs exist by applying the rules of "reality". Simply put, the existance of such characters only makes sense if explained in terms of the game itself. That is, Xth level NPCs exist only because their presence at such a relative power level is called for in a given in-game situation. For example, if the PCs need an expert widget maker to accompany them into the Demonweb, then it behooves the DM to provide one that has some chance of surviving the dangers he will inevitably encounter, or else risk putting his players in a bind they may very well not be able to roleplay (or "roll" play) themselves out of. Putting a 0-level NPC in such a situation is simply unreasonable and could very well be unfair to the players, depending on the circumstances.

    It is this reasoning that has caused me to abandon all tables, rules, etc., that try to suggest there are only so many NPCs of a particular type at a given level. Such NPCs appear and disappear as I need them to, and answer to no other rules except for a vague, undefined statement that "there just aren't that many high-level characters out there." In fact, I have been known to arbitrarily increase or decrease an NPC's level, even on the fly, if the needs of my campaign call for it. The requirements of the campaign and of the players determines an NPC's level, not some arbitrary rules system that was designed for random play anyway.

    Just my 2cp.
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    Sun May 23, 2010 2:16 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -An Exp10 Blacksmith doesn't have the combat skills of a Ftr10, so he doesn't.


    I know a 10th level Expert doesn't have the same basic skill as a 10th level fighet- he has the same basic skills a a 7th level fighter(which I previously stated), which is still way, way over-the-top for a mere Blacksmith. A long-time campaigning *Mercenary Captain* is a 6th level fighter, and still the Blacksmith would put him to shame.

    "Hey Captain! Don't mess with that Blacksmith over there. He's been wailing on metal with that hammer of his for over 20 years. By no means assume the "Anvil" defense posture if you fight him, for he will assuredly thrash you soundly!"

    Laughing

    While likely inadvertent(to some degree I hope), the Expert class results in way too heroic everyday NPC's if given too many class levels, when the main effect you want for them as a DM is just for them to be *experts* in their areas of...um...expertise.

    James has the best solution for that, which is to give the NPC actual PC class levels. You want a Blacksmith who can beat heads because he's ex-army or an ex-mercenary, or learned a few tricks from another Blacksmith who was an ex-adventurer?- give him a few Fighter levels.
    For those NPCs who you want to be experts in their field without being combat monsters, modify the hit points and BAB for the Expert(and Commoner). I'd make their BAB that of a Wizard at best, and give them d4 hp per level. A stout laborer(i.e. a Commoner) or a Blacksmith(i.e an Expert) will have more Hit Points due to likely having a good Constitution, and though neither will necessarily be skilled in fighting their likely better than average Strength scores will make them more dangerous than the average man. And that is what such NPCs would be- "more dangerous than the average man". In my opinion, that is as it should be. It keeps the adventurers heroic, but still allows for interesting(but not over-the-top) NPCs.

    Cool
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    Sun May 23, 2010 2:23 am  

    Who says the long time campaigning mercenary captain is only a Ftr6 ? Also what kind of life has a 10th level blacksmith lead to get to such a high (name) level?
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    Sun May 23, 2010 2:56 am  

    6th level is a standard mercenary captain level(5th-8th actually), and a Blacksmith that has reached 10th level is probably living in a city where a large variety of high quality work has been done over a number of years.
    The levels are mainly there to represent skill level so far as to what is required to make certain higher end items Skill Check-wise(i.e. master-crafted items). Perhaps assign a Challenge Rating to each project, or group of projects, and see if the Blacksmith "defeats" them. Just like a 10th level Fighter won't be getting XP for defeating kobold children, a Blacksmith is not going to get XP for completing a mundane task that is not challenging whatsoever. He will gain XP for completing challenging tasks though, just as 10th level Figher will get XP for defeating challenging foes. You get the idea. This isn't covered in detail in the game system as it is not really important to the game- NPC levels are completely arbitrary.

    The point is that combat-wise an everyday Blacksmith, even one with superior skills, should not have the same basic combat ability of a Mercenary Captain, and the Expert and Commoner classes do not reflect this.
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    Tue May 25, 2010 2:46 am  

    It seems that a 10th-level blacksmith, or any other expert, with above average fighting ability could only have gained the martial expertise by actually doing some fighting. I do think that it is possible to gain experience by overcoming challanges but such experience gain should only increase the abilities pertinent to the type of challange involved. I don't care how much challanging and beutiful prose the local poet is writing that won't help him in combat against orcs and goblins.
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    Tue May 25, 2010 8:22 am  

    A 10th level blacksmith is not an everyday blacksmith, just as a 10th level fighter is not an everyday fighter. Both are name level.

    And you don't need the levels to represent the mastercraft skill level as you can reach DC 20 with an expert of a level a lot lower than 10 quite easily. Level 1 or 2 is enough with Skill Focus and a high int to get a +10 skill bonus. You need it to represent life-experience. A 10th level Blacksmith is an outstanding person and he probably has had some or many fights, similar to how a rogue or even a mage probably has had fights even though they all are no fighters. They all have gained some increased combat abilities and durability from their very different experiences.

    Give the expert the weak BAB if you want to but I don't see this as a valid point against the use of NPC classes in general. Or use the commoner class to represent non-combatant tradesmen.
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    Tue May 25, 2010 9:39 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    If we look at Oerth as being in any way "realistic", then class levels of any kind just don't make sense. It is entirely preposterous to think that one human being can be so massively, personally, more powerful than any other. Depending on the game system you're using, it's entirely possible to have a character so powerful that he can be drugged unconscious, tied up, and set upon by a gang of ninjas using enchanted, envenomed katanas, and still walk away from it relatively unscathed. Even 3.5e allows for the possibility that a character can be stabbed in his sleep and still survive (though it's a lot less likely)...


    1) Ignoring "realism" is one way to handle it;

    2) IIRC (I'd have to look it up), you have to make a Fortitude save just to survive, then you still take damage if you survive, which is tough enough for me;

    3) Real people survive execution-style gunshot wounds to the head. And then there's Rasputin...

    Thanael wrote:
    Who says the long time campaigning mercenary captain is only a Ftr6 ? Also what kind of life has a 10th level blacksmith lead to get to such a high (name) level?


    -I think Cebrion is getting that stat' from the recommendations in the AD&D 1ed DMG and the WOG Glossography, which I use.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I know a 10th level Expert doesn't have the same basic skill as a 10th level fighet- he has the same basic skills a a 7th level fighter(which I previously stated), which is still way, way over-the-top for a mere Blacksmith...


    ...but I think Thanael has a point:

    Thanael wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...A 10th level Master Blacksmith has nearly the fighting ability and hit points of a 7th level fighter...


    This is simply not true. They have the same BAB (basic attack bonus or to-hit for you old schoolers), yes, but certainly not the same fighting ability. A 10th level rogue or bard has the same BAB as a Ftr7 too and no one is arguing that a 10th level rogue or bard has too much combat abilities or can beat a 7th level fighter in straight combat...


    ...it doesn't include all those Feats, either.

    Also, I think you wouldn't have a problem with an Exp10 having a higher BAB than a Ftr2. We're arguing over exactly what level of ability an Exp10 would be equal to.

    Thanael covered something like this a while ago:

    Thanael wrote:
    ...A warrior 1 is not a trained soldier. He's a noob, a recruit or the local school bully. Not much older than 15. So let's put the "somewhat experienced warrior" at War2 and pit him against the expert sage... I'd put my bets on the Warrior. Granted if he was a newb (War1) the Sage would probably defeat him...


    ...my quibble Thanael would be that in my campaign, a War2 is more typically in his 20s.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Perhaps assign a Challenge Rating to each project, or group of projects, and see if the Blacksmith "defeats" them...


    -That's pretty much what I do, and that seems to be where Thanael is too. But 30 years of projects alone would probably only get you to second level unless it was something REALLY major. I agree with both Gilban & Thanael that an Exp10 would have had to do some serious fighting:

    Gilban wrote:
    It seems that a 10th-level blacksmith, or any other expert, with above average fighting ability could only have gained the martial expertise by actually doing some fighting...


    Thanael wrote:
    A 10th level blacksmith is not an everyday blacksmith, just as a 10th level fighter is not an everyday fighter. Both are name level...


    On this:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...James has the best solution for that, which is to give the NPC actual PC class levels. You want a Blacksmith who can beat heads because he's ex-army or an ex-mercenary, or learned a few tricks from another Blacksmith who was an ex-adventurer?- give him a few Fighter levels...


    ...actually, I usually do it the other way around. I figure out what the NPC is like, then I figure out what they did, then that gives me their classes, levels, skills, feats, etc.

    When creating a new place, I do use the 3.5D&D DMG guide, but I still figure out "how they got there", and I usually decide that if the NPC is high enough, that a NPC Class type would noramlly get enough training to convert to a PC Class. I touched on this before in "Those Greedy Power Hungry NPCs":

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -I figure most Clerics (or Druids) would be 1st-3rd level; many would be Adepts (I particualry use Adp1/Clr1s & Adp1/Clr2s), who had a lot of experience, but who didn't have a lot of formal training (at first). I reserve Experts and Aristocrats at chapels & temples for lay persons, or trainees...

    BTW, a Cleric is just a souped up Expert. The same thing is true of Bards & Experts, and of Fighters and Warriors (a Ftr1 is just a War1 with a d10 for hit points, and an extra "fighter" feat, plus the "Craft" feat IIRC). The same almost goes for Aristocrats, except the Aristocrat has all martial weapon proficiencies, and can effectively use a tower shield. Presumably, a teen-aged Ari1 who becomes a Clr1 simply loses those proficiencies (feats) when they get their clerical abilities. Adepts are pretty much the same story, with relation to Clerics & Druids. IMC, I assume that most PCs & NPCs of the "Player Classes" were "NPC Classed" when they were still going thru' training, and in most cases, started at Com1.


    On this issue:

    Thanael wrote:
    ...And you don't need the levels to represent the mastercraft skill level as you can reach DC 20 with an expert of a level a lot lower than 10 quite easily...


    I touched on this before in "Those Greedy Power Hungry NPCs" as well:

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ... Consider a very talented Exp1:

    Skill ranks= +4;

    Stat' of 18= +4;

    Skill Focus= +3;

    "Mercantile/Craft/Professional Background" (from one of the Dragons which had the GH feats)= +2 (assuming daddy was a skilled whatever)...

    ...and you end up with a modifier of +13...


    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Just like a 10th level Fighter won't be getting XP for defeating kobold children...


    -Actually, the little buggers have sharp teeth; 5 XP each by D&D 3.5 terms.

    Of course, there may be alignment issues... Razz
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    Thu May 27, 2010 2:56 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Actually, the little buggers have sharp teeth; 5 XP each by D&D 3.5 terms.


    Actually, they are an ad-hoc award and not a set 5 XP, as the XP table does not support CRs 8 below the Character Level. It is up to the DM and so likely nada, as a kobold child represents no threat to a 10th level Fighter...unless it is holding a thermal detonator!!! Shocked Laughing

    As to the 6th level Mercenary Captain, yes, I arbitrarily chose a 1E reference, and not the highest level one at that(I think the highest recommended level is 8th). 6th is enough, as a 6th level Fighter will butcher quite a crowd of your average commoners.

    As to an Expert and XP, a smith of some kind for instance, XP will likely depend on the monetary value of the item in question. Making a bazillion nails and horse shoes will net you little XP-wise, but creating an intricate statue made of wrought iron will get you a lot. And yes, your 10th level Blacksmith will not be your average nail-maker but an artist who works in iron, bronze, brass, and more rare metals- the kind of guy a powerful wizard hunts down to forge very special items, such as the body of an iron golem that won't look like the Tin Man. An exceedingly rare Blacksmith to be sure, but the trade requires no badarsed fighting ability. Experts get Feats too, and there are only three basic Feats in the PHB that a Fighter can take but that an Expert cannot(i.e. those having to do with Weapon Specialization). The Expert need only spend one or two of those Feats on the Skill Focus Feats, and the rest could be spent on fighting skills. A 10th level human Expert that spent two Feats on Skill Focus would still have three Feats left to spend on Combat skills, like Power Attack, Cleave, and Weapon Focus( a common combination). With even moderate abilities(16 STR, 14 CON) this member of a non-combatant profession is beyond dangerous so far as even Ogres are concerned. Run little Ogre. Run very, very fast. ;)

    The Expert and Commoner can simply be a little bit too heroic when they shouldn't be heroic at all(in my opinion), without a little bit of proper training. As has been said though, one solution is to keep your Experts at very low levels and give them Feats that boost their skills decently. Then you turn them loose to Take 10 or Take 20 and be able to produce something a bit more exceptional, but that are required to take their own sweet time in doing so. Then you leave the high level Experts to represent something like a Captain Nemo-ish sort of individual(Aristocrat 6/Expert 10, or whatever). Truly somebody exceptional, and even heroic.

    Nice "little" discussion to be sure. Cool
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:55 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I am completely on target. With regard to Experts and adventurers, there is one major difference between them- adventurers actually go into places where they will likely be attacked, and do so purposely. They will fight stuff; even wizards and bards. They don't just read books and play instruments(these are not your average bookish nerds and band geeks here Wink). Your average Expert will not likely do this at all, ever, and yet they have the combat ability(in the form of a middle range BAB advancement and Hit Points one rank above the most basic level) to function on par, or better than, more than half of the adventurer classes when it comes to basic combat abilities. Anything wrong with that picture?


    No. PCs gain more XP this way and thus tend to advance in levels faster and higher. The average NPC is of a lower level.

    Exceptional NPCs have entered adventures themselves and had to fight a little thus gaining a measure of fighting ability.

    Check out the very entertaining adventures of Joe Wood the Commoner in the WotC Commoner campaign thread an actual solo campaign log with a commoner PC (including 3E statblocks).


    Last edited by Thanael on Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:02 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Thanael wrote:
    So you're saying they should have a wizard's BAB, right? OK I can see that. But you can't turn this into an argument that NPC classes are generally a bad idea.


    I never did. The basic NPC classes are decent enough. I only said that Experts are a bit overqualified in combat with regards to both hit points and BAB. There is no need(or reason) for them to have better Hit Dice or a better BAB than a Commoner does. That is all.


    Ah, ok. So use the commoner class to model those experts. MavrickWeirdo did run just such a comparison in his ENWorld threads between a commoner class expert (by which i mean the job ) and an expert class expert: Commoner vs. Expert over a lifetime.

    Quote:
    As for what the average Joe Schmoe brawler can do, his few levels of Commoner might simply be bolstered by a good Strength and Constitution, or perhaps even a level of Warrior or Rogue(back stab = dirty fighter Wink). This is not your average commoner though, but more of a standout NPC tough guy Commoner. "Bad Bart" will thrash the local Commoners, but a trained Fighter of equivalent level will work him over pretty bad. These types of NPCs are fun to think about though. Cool


    Indeed.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:17 am  

    Thanael wrote:
    Overcoming challenges by successfully using your abilities.

    I personally do not like giving out xp only for killing things much. It's almost as bad as gaining xp by gold pieces was.


    Actually i saw an awesome variant of the bolded rule above. You gain XP for each gold piece that you squander. So PC can either buy better gear with their loot or spend the week drinking and whoring and gaining XP for it. The "Ale and Whores" xp system. If treasure is wasted -- it has to be useless spending! – then 1 gp is worth 1 XP or whatever rate you deem satisfactory.

    See also Wine Women and Song XP
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:01 am  

    This is precisely why I quit playing d20 games and started playing Savage Worlds. When you retrain your logic process to limit itself within the possibilities of the d20 system, you are missing the point of playing DnD.

    When playing 3.5 I kept having arguments over the rules, players who think they are entitled to challenge the DM by right of the rules, and whenever I changed the rules, it just became a pain in the butt to enforce.

    No more Save Vs. Dungeon Master; no more d20.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:45 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I prefer what you described; that being that an Expert is just an Expert, but that Blacksmith who actually does know how to knock heads will have some Fighter levels in addition to his Expert levels.


    And this explains how you get a Pirates of the Carribean William Turner-like Expert Blacksmith (weaponsmith) who is also expertly skilled with the weapons he makes. As opposed to his drunken master (not Drunken Master) type of blacksmith. Wink

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:36 am  

    This is all about the problems with the system and the xp/level thing was always the achilles heel of D&D. It's not an insurmountable problem as long as you use xp awards in the right way.

    For me, though, I eventually gave up and changed to a system which rewards successful skill use with an opportunity to improve that skill and not all of them. This way you get a blacksmith with 90% in craft but, probably, only 30-35% in attack/parry. If that blacksmith wants to be able to match the adventurers' prowess with a weapon he can; but he'll either have to do some time consuming training or start using the weapon for real.

    Some simple house-ruling can work this stuff out in most systems, though.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:36 pm  

    Something that always bugged me was that in AD&D King Skotti was a 15th level Ranger and remained unchanged in the LGG under 3.0 rules. There is a big difference in effectiveness there.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:21 am  

    I can't even get my head around the idea that a 15th level Ranger would have the skills to be a king. That's one tough dude, but, people skills? I could see him being multiclass; maybe a Ranger as a main profession but you'd need Expert or Aristocrat or even Rogue maybe to get some ranks of Diplomacy, Leadership feat etc. Granted, not all kings are charismatic leaders of men but in this case, the figurehead of a grand old nation that still harbours imperialistic ambitions and with a Duke on the coast that has all of the above, Skotti's got to have something more than hps and +20 attack.

    When I was playing AD&D I never used to worry overmuch because there weren't the systems in place to develop characters other than by level but 3/3.5/Pathfinder has those skills/feats available.

    I agree, chaotic, maybe a time to revise the statistics of such figures.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:26 am  

    If memory serves, Skotti fought his way into the position by taking back Westkeep from the dog-eating Sea Princes.

    If he was a 15th level AD&D Ranger, it is likely none of his competitors for the spot were able to significantly deter him from gaining it.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:07 am  

    " an obscure Ranger-Lord from a small province near the Dreadwood with little-known blood ties to the throne". Of course there's always Lashton to consider in all this.

    If I were using 3.5 I 'd probably amend Skotti to Ranger 10 (Lord as in AD&D)/ Something suitable 5. He has been king since 564 and done little Rangering since I'd wager. 20+ years to develop as an Aristocrat 5 maybe?
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:54 am  

    I would put him higher than that. You have to address the requirements to level up. The abstractions may be different, sure, but the sheer number of bastards he had to have killed to hit 15th level by AD&D rules should not change. His literal XP total should not be converted verbatim, but the efforts he had to put forth to gain it should be. The standard for PC retirement was more or less agreed upon to be 20th level by 3.0's standards. I say call him that, with a couple epic levels in useless NPC stupids.

    Why do I care? I hate 3.0+.

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:55 am  

    The LG Triads plot cast Skotti in a different light. Keoland is a sort of hybrid constitutional monarchy where the Court of the Land appoints a male successor that need not be related to the previous monarch and Skotti's appointment as king was largely political.

    As such, he spends much of his time in Axewood, loathes the bureaucracy of kingship and would much rather be frolicking in the woods. As such that version isn't really suited to levels of aristocrat.

    I do agree that the advancement of some of the high level npcs is too limited. It made more sense under 1e when higher level advancement was more limited but there is no reason why Reynard Yargrove should be permanently stuck as a Grand Druid (14) in later editions.

    Blimey in the standard 4e game, characters gain about 5 levels each week.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:10 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:


    Why do I care? I hate 3.0+.

    He's a Go-Bot from the moon!


    Laughing

    And I don't play it anymore.....

    ....we have too much time on our hands today, CP.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:13 am  

    [quote="PaulN6" frolicking in the woods.]

    That would get you on a register of some sort these days.

    [Blimey in the standard 4e game, characters gain about 5 levels each week./quote]

    Surprised That slow?
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:46 am  

    I, too, have made Keoland a constitutional monarchy. King Skotti is King Whoop-****, too. I have it so that a family is elected to an office until it is deemed that they are unfit for duty. Most offices are held for many generations by a single family. Sort of a Mandate-of-Heaven situation.

    Keoland is largely ruled by an oft-rotated official who the king has taken a brief liking to so he can go off and break stuff as his want is to do. He spends a good deal of his time carousing about the whole of Keoland (or the Sheldomar Valley) taking time to listen to the people.

    My group came across him hunting one time and wound up being shanghaied into a Wild Hunt-esque debacle ending up in Skotti goading the party's fighter into capturing a live owlbear, "What are you waiting for? Go get on him! Blood and thunder! Rope that dog-eating varmint before I come and do it for you!"

    Skotti just wanted to see someone actually do it. He let the beast go in the end. He rewarded them by (re) naming his horse after the fighter.

    I cast Brian Blessed (from his role as Porthos in the 1976 BBC-produced The Three Muskateers) as King Skotti.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:53 am  

    This is a topic that has come up on thursday night chats often, in the dim past. In my game we have used the advanced npc classes extensively and for years, without difficulty. At one point I came up with a system by which the mass of humanity advanced in their respective classes by age, augmented with bonuses for 'Extrodinary," persons. The arguments presented here are reasonable in that it makes little sense for a blacksmith to be equivalent of a warrior, etc. However, in medieval times, most warriors were effectively drafted peasants, so there is some historic precedent.

    More importantly, for game play, I found it was beneficial to assume that 'experts," in various fields had significant levels. For lower level PCs, it helped stop silly gaming with abuse of the locals, lording around, etc. For higher level PCs it gave them more useful resources, but also non-combat challenges. A 10th level fighter is less likely to try and swindle an expert.

    As to combat, the 10th level blacksmith should hit hard. But he wont have the plate mail, and +2 Bastard Sword, and the party of other 10th level characters that your 10 level PC will. In game play, I have found it was a good and easy method to allow the PCs quality non-combat challenges with minimal effort on my part. And if your party is like some of mine, it dosent hurt that the Blacksmith just might kick the party's butt. Otherwise they take ALL the money from everyone, and want to know where they can buy stuff.
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