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    Canonfire :: View topic - Paladins
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- Heresy!
    Paladins
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2003
    Posts: 349
    From: the Free City of Dyvers (Kansas City, MO)

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    Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:23 am  
    Paladins

    I felt the need to write this based on the "Open-minded paladins?" thread.

    Long ago, there was a Dragon article detailing paladins of other alignments, beyond L/G. Ever since, I have run with paladins of different alignments. L/G still follow Heironeous and Mayaheine, and some others, but many of the Pholtian or Cuthberian paladins became L/N. Pelor has N/G paladins, Nerull N/E paladins, Trithereon C/G, and so on. Below is a list of the alignments and the gods typically associated with such paladins (or champions, as I have now come to call them):
    L/G: Arvoreen, Garl Glittergold, Heironeous, Mayaheine, Moradin, Rao, St. Cuthbert
    L/N: Istus, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert
    L/E: Hextor, Nerull
    N/E: Nerull
    C/E: Erythnul, Gruumsh
    C?N: Kord, Ralishaz
    C/G: Corellon Lareithian, Kord, Trithereon
    N/G: Pelor

    Obviously this list is not comprehensive (I don't have my LGG handy...), but I think it paints a clear picture. Any thoughts, additions or changes? All comments are welcome.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 23, 2010
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    Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:18 pm  

    I've run two myrikhans (NG paladins) of Heironeous, even though he's about as LG as you can get. If I were to run an alternate paladin of Hextor, I might make him or her LN since some of his followers are that alignment. LN Hextorians have a lot of angst, usually.:-)
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 833
    From: Houston Texas

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    Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:31 pm  
    Paladins

    Personally, I have always felt Paladins were the apex of knighthood... and should thus be only LG. In my campaign, I did however,introduce Knights and Orders that could be of many differing alignments and ethos.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:27 am  

    I think that what 3rd edition should have done was start with the basic classes (Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Thief) and allowed customization through skills, feats, and prestige classes.

    With respect to Paladins, they already made Blackguards a prestige class that can be taken by many different types of warrior classes that desire to be Chaotic Evil holy warriors. Why not make a Paladin prestige class for Lawful Good holy warriors, a Lion prestige class for Lawful Neutral holy warriors, etc.?

    It seems that such a system would have been much more streamlined while offering at least as much customization and choice as the current system.

    SirXaris
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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:00 am  

    You can sort of do that with the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana, and to some degree with Pathfinder with the alternate class features.

    There are also...in the Complete Champion I think there was something called the Grey Knight...or something like that. It let you basically be Lawful Neutral and still be a paladin.

    I liked the change for 4th edition in that Paladins became holy warriors for any religion. Though I have never done it I have thought getting rid of the Paladin class, and having something like a 'Champion' class that can be devoted to any alignment, or god.

    Anyways that's just my two coppers.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 am  

    Iressi wrote:
    I liked the change for 4th edition in that Paladins became holy warriors for any religion.


    I prefer the terms "Paladin" for good religions and "anti-Paladin" for evil religions.

    But that's just me. Wink
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:53 pm  

    Ugh I always hated it when they would call something anti-paladins. They did that for Pathfinder for evil paladins. I like Blackguard much more. That's just me though, never really liked to use it as its name. I'm okay with it as a description though. :P
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    From: New Jersey

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:31 am  

    I'm with Iresssi on this one.

    Never cared for Anti-Paladin, I can see Paladin for other alignments though Templar makes more sense for holy warrior. A Paladin is a specific type of holy warrior found in certain faiths.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:46 am  

    Iressi wrote:
    I like Blackguard much more.


    I understand what you're saying, but you suggest too much "change" for me. In what way?

    As I'm always saying, "you" did not invent the word "Blackguard." Neither did WotC, or Paizo, or myself. Or anyone else here.

    Blackguard has never meant "holy warrior" in any sense and has been used to describe people who weren't necessarily "unholy warriors" either, people who weren't even warriors of any kind.

    Argon wrote:

    Quote:
    Templar makes more sense for holy warrior


    Again, no of us invented that term either. And the Kinghts Templar (who did invent the term) were a specific order of knight and specifically associated with the Catholic Church -- not the Muslim "church," or the Pelorian church, or the Boccobian church.

    Secondly, properly described, the clerics, priest and warriors of Nerull's church are not holy, they are unholy.

    This, or course, is just a very simple way of explaining it -- from my point of view. Their are others here who will disagree; such as Rasgon (Not singling him out!).

    But I'm not going to bother getting into those arguments. I was just expressing my view in response to what Argon and Iressi originally said regarding my previous statement.

    Feel free to argue semantics -- and all the rest -- for as long as you like. Evil Grin
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    From: New Jersey

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:34 pm  

    As you have stated MS,

    We all have are preferences to explain Paladins. I say to each, his own.
    Anti-paladins just does not sound like a good description. I know it was created way back in 1E. Still never did anything for me. I also don't play alignment for gods, perception is my guide on the gods. So depending where you are on Oerth Nerull's clergy might not receive the negative reactions many would assume he should receive. Though I would agree most would fear the winter lord, others would show his priests a begrudging respect.

    Later

    Argon
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    From: Houston Texas

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    Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:57 pm  

    Gargoyle
    Big C sent me a posting on another thread that may be of aid to you
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4603&highlight=
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 09, 2001
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    Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:07 pm  

    I certainly use them. IMC the paladins of Trithereon are very important. Anyone who has read my old Verbobonc stuff can see that. There is now a paladin of Trithereon in my campaign, and he's having a lot of fun with it.

    I must admit, my initial reason for doing this, a way long time ago, was the Thrommel/Fragarach issue in T1-4. Granted, the easy fix was to just change the sword's alignment. However, never being one to do things the easy way, I used the dragon article to create new paladins of non-LG alignments.

    I have used LN Paladins of Pholtus, based in the Theocracy of the Pale, and actually had a player play one once. I've also used a LE Illriger, paladin of Hextor, as a major badguy.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    From: New Jersey

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    Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:17 pm  

    Paladins are holy warriors.

    So depending on the one who serves determines what is holy or not. However, those that worship demons or devils not actual gods would be unholy to me.

    Just my 2 cents and some change.

    Later

    Argon
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 24, 2006
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    Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:15 am  

    I prefer paladins to be LG only.

    Why?

    Because clerics are the fighting monks and militant priests of the various cults.

    Paladins are something else IMGHC.

    I go with this:

    Quote:

    Paladin class Based largely on the character of Holger Carlson from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, as well as Anderson's original sources, Charlemagne's paladins in the medieval French chansons de geste ("songs of deeds"), particularly The Song of Roland and Ariosto's Orlando Furioso. The paladin's tie to a special war-horse is also from Three Hearts and Three Lions.



    ("I do not mean a saint, but a warrior whom God gave more than common gifts and then put under a more than common burden." -- Martinus, in Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson.)


    http://www.hahnlibrary.net/rpgs/sources.html
    [/code]


    I think the paladin works best in service of a unified, high moral ideal with monotheistic (or henotheist) elements.

    I see three ways to fit that into GH. one is to use Pholtus. But that seems odd, as he has neutral tendencies, and Hieroneuos is the "arch-paladin."

    Another way is to make Heironeous the patron of all paladins.

    But I think I prefer a third way. Paladins do not get powers from any of the named and listed gods. They draw their gifts from Lawful Good as a cosmic force, or from an unnamed higher power that embodies it. It's not a "god" in the sense that the beings clerics and specialty priests serve are gods. It doesn't have stats and one won't encounter it in avatar form. But the paladins feels its call and they battle evil with its blessings.
    Paladins , being spiritually gifted, do tend to be pious men. But their relationship with gods like Hieroneous is different from that of the clergy. They may emulate gods who uphold their ideals and ethos of Lawful Good.


    YMMV, for sure!


    And all this aside, I like the other approaches presented in this thread,
    It's fun to see different DMs doing different things.

    I do like that the Dragon article with seven ''paladins" gives each of the new classes a new name and new abilities.
    That means that the paladin is still the champion of LG.
    It's just that the other alignments also have champions.


    That may create two separate class families:

    alignment champions


    priests of the gods
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