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    Canonfire :: View topic - (Un)Holy Word- input requested
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    (Un)Holy Word- input requested
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:47 pm  
    (Un)Holy Word- input requested

    Fellow Hawkers,

    You 1e people, chime in as well, even though it's a 2e posting.

    The description mentions that it affects targets of a different alignment than the caster. I interpret this to mean that if you are LG, NG, or CG, you affect only Evil targets. If you are LE, NE, or CE, your affected targets must be Good.

    Question: what about Neutrally aligned targets? Are they affected by the power of a (Un)Holy Word? This includes non-aligned undead, too (skeletons and zombies). By the letter of the description, it would seem so.

    Input?

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:56 pm  

    Lanthorn,

    We have a rule question never! Laughing

    You just about got this one except neutral alignments are not mentioned on this spells description. I for one would add that a NG character could not affect neutral or good alignments, but can affect all evil alignments. However Lawful evil characters can affect any good character and neutral and chaotic neutral character but not lawful neutral characters.

    I hope this helps.

    Later

    Argon


    Last edited by Argon on Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:48 am  

    Nope, I think my questions will be endless! Sorry, guy. Wink

    I don't see where Neutrals are mentioned, only that the spell affects creatures of a 'different alignment.' Maybe your description reads differently than mine does (page 243). Would a Neutral creature be considered of a 'different' alignment? Not sure if they are. Also wondering about non-aligned Undead, too, on this one.

    -Lanthorn of the Endless Questions
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:58 am  

    Going back to the 1E spell description (and further back to Supplement I: Greyhawk), I think the intention of the spell is that holy word affects evil creatures and unholy word affects good creatures. Neutrals would be unaffected by either form.

    The phrase "other creatures of differing alignment" originated in the 1E Players Handbook, where it was preceded by the phrase "evil (good) creatures from other planes"; in other words, "Here's what holy (unholy) word does to evil (good) creatures from other planes. Here's what holy (unholy) word does to evil (good) creatures that aren't from other planes." 2E kept the same language, but split off unholy word into its own paragraph, so the original meaning is less clear. (In OD&D, the spell wasn't reversible, and simply affected everything in the AoE regardless of alignment.)
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:48 am  

    DMPrata, that was my understanding, too. Neutrals are unaffected by either variation, so that if an animal or Neutral character, such as a druid, were in the area of affect, they would be totally unharmed. Sounds odd, in a way, though, especially if they (animal or Neutral character) were attacking the priest who summons forth such a powerful Combat spell.

    What do you think about the mindless undead? Do you think that a Holy Word would blast them to nothingness, even though, technically, they are Neutral? I would think that the commanding priest's inherent evil nature that brought them forth (animating and binding them to his/her will) would rule that the Holy Word does work. Just my thought.

    What are yours?

    -Lanthorn
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:38 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    What do you think about the mindless undead? Do you think that a Holy Word would blast them to nothingness, even though, technically, they are Neutral? I would think that the commanding priest's inherent evil nature that brought them forth (animating and binding them to his/her will) would rule that the Holy Word does work. Just my thought.
    I'd say no effect on mindless undead. Of course, any cleric who can cast holy word can destroy skeletons and zombies anyway.
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:09 am  

    True, but only if they have turning ability already (Trithereon doesn't grant it but his high priests can use Holy Word since they have Major access to Combat sphere). Furthermore, the area of effect is such that it could destroy mindless undead of a greater number than turning alone. Any within the area of effect would be utterly annihilated, but turning is limited to 2d6 in number.

    Anyone else care to add their opinion?

    -Lanthorn
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:45 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    True, but only if they have turning ability already (Trithereon doesn't grant it but his high priests can use Holy Word since they have Major access to Combat sphere). Furthermore, the area of effect is such that it could destroy mindless undead of a greater number than turning alone. Any within the area of effect would be utterly annihilated, but turning is limited to 2d6 in number.

    Anyone else care to add their opinion?

    -Lanthorn
    Now, unfortunately, we're getting edition-specific. In 1E, Trithereon is a lesser god and can't grant 7th-level spells.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:43 pm  

    Lanthorn,

    I was harping on the differing alignment. As there are neutral deities which would have priests that could cast this spell. Since it is seventh level those of differing alignment should be affected. So here is my scenario. A Lawful Neutral cleric casts this spell all neutral alignment are not affected as well as all lawful alignments, however those of good or evil are affected.

    So LN casts LE,LG,N,LN,and CN are not affected by the spell. Another scenario would be N casts CN,LN,N,NG, and NE would not be affected by the spell.

    Now if we assume that Neutral priests and gods are neither holy or unholy then we need to define exactly what they are.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:09 pm  

    Argon, I see what you mean now.

    I guess I interpret different alignment differently (no pun meant). If a Good priests casts the spell, those of Evil alignment are affected, and vice versa.

    As for minor, Neutral undead such as skeletons and zombies, I am inclined to consider them "evil" if under the command of an Evil priest, as it is that malevolence that has created and bound them. Even the spell description notes that it is not a 'good act' and only 'evil priests use it frequently.'

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:04 pm  

    7th Level Priests spells were equivalent to 9th Level Wizard spells in 2E. So I take it this spell draws from the various protection spells good, evil, law, and chaos.

    Stands to reason such a powerful spell would not be triumphed by neutrality.

    Later

    Argon
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:25 am  

    Spell descriptions for both editions are a bit wonky, but holy word only affects evil, and unholy word only affects good; neutrals are unaffected.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:27 pm  

    Cebrion, do you think this also pertains to mindless undead minions animated and controlled by an Evil priest? In my mind this may be the exception to the rule that Neutrals are 'safe.' I just don't see a cleric about to be overrun by skeletons and zombies speaking a Holy Word only to have it 'fall on deaf ears' so to speak. Just my interpretation.

    I can understand Argon's rationale that such a spell is vastly powerful and should affect all-comers, but do see why it may not affect neutral animals and such.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:09 pm  

    3.5e makes many things more clear and this spell is an example. When considering AD&D and 2nd ed., you can use the wording in 3.5 as an indication of the intent of the spell in the previous editions, use your own best judgement to decide how to apply the spell, or a combination of the two.

    When it comes to undead, 3.5 makes it clear that the magic that powers them comes from the Negative Material Plane, regardless of the intelligence of the undead creature/creation. Therefore, the monster is an incarnation of evil powers and interacts with the prime material world as an evil creature regardless of its actual intelligence or alignment. (Note that there are a few obscure exceptions such as potentially Good liches and an undead paladin in one of the Vecna modules that was undead via some sort of holy power, if I recall correctly.)

    As far as neutral animals are concerned, I would suggest that you consider any neutral creature of animal intelligence or lower as being unaligned with respect to the application of this spell. Creatures without the intelligence to choose between good and evil can pretty much be assumed to be uncommited. Therefore they shouldn't be subject to the effects of either Holy Word or its evil counterpart.

    Hope this provides some food for thought, at least. Happy

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:21 pm  

    Friend Xaris, I just spoke with a friend of mine who, though a 2e player/DM, has access to 3e materials. He read the description to me, and as you mentioned, it is more descriptive. According to what he read, a Holy Word affects anything, including Neutrals (creatures, beings, whatever), that is non-Good. Druids and wild animals beware! As you stated, this would include skeletons and zombies. Although I am not a 3e guy, I will admit it is nice to have access to materials that 'clarify' things, at least in my mind.

    Thank you very much for your input! It is nice to get a multiplicity of perspectives and views.

    -Lanthorn
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:32 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    3.5e makes many things more clear and this spell is an example. When considering AD&D and 2nd ed., you can use the wording in 3.5 as an indication of the intent of the spell in the previous editions, use your own best judgement to decide how to apply the spell, or a combination of the two.
    (emphasis mine)

    Everyone's welcome to his own interpretation, of course, but this logic is flawed. The 3.5 design team had no more insight into the intent of previous editions than any of the rest of us. To the contrary, in many cases I've seen common misunderstandings from earlier editions canonized in later editions.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:31 am  

    What DMPrata just said. 3.5 is a whole other animal than 1E/2E(and 1E and 2E have a few differences too), and provides no insight into anything. 3.0 and later editions just made a point of completely changing some things, and further defining others. there are many features, particularly those of spells, that very much do not work in the same way from 1E/2E to 3.0/3.5.

    As to Lanthorn's question, any neutral undead, or neutral anything for that matter, would be immune to either holy word or unholy word. Mind you, the term "neutral" applies to lawful neutral, chaotic neutral, and true neutral alignments, not neutral good or neutral evil alignments, as the latter two alignments contain "good" and "evil" components.

    I am reminded of something else though. Here is the best point of all though with regard to the "differing alignments" bit, and why it only affects opposing moral alignments(i.e. good/evil):

    Say your lawful good cleric of unthinkably high level awesomeness and his fellow adventurers of goodliness have just encountered a gang of various demon bullies that have just so happened to decide to beat them up and take their lunch money. The cleric simply can't abide such uncouth behavior, so he decides to start things off with a holy word. "Yeah! Take that naughty-spawn!", the paladin yells fanatically, seeing the affects of the spell. "Now, lets all finish them off everybody!"

    ..excepting that the other PCs, hirelings, and henchmen, all of which just so happen to be neutral good and chaotic good, have also been affected by the spell because they are of a *differing alignment* than the cleric, and so, along with the demons, they have also been subject to being deafened/slowed/paralyzed/killed too. At least they weren't banished though, seeing as they are not evil and extra-planar. Yay! Razz

    And that is why unholy/holy word only affects evil/good and not "differing alignments" in the broad sense. So, consider the full ramifications of your own rulings before you make them. Wink Laughing
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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:41 am  

    I made a "fix" to this and similar problems long ago....make Skeletons and Zombies NE instead of N. Problem solved!

    I understand that they're "mindless"; but to me; I always went with Undead = Evil; there are 'spirit' kind of monsters/creatures who are very much like undead (like Spectral Minions from the Hickmans) who aren't necessarily evil; but to me; Undead should just be evil. Simpler that way. :)
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:16 pm  

    I guess the only continuity I see from our various perspectives is discontinuity. Wink

    Good food for thought, all. Thanks again for the diversity of views, edition-based or not.

    much obliged,

    -Lanthorn

    p.s. Cebrion, special note to you for granting me a good laugh at the dramatic way you wrote your example. Happy
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