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    Canonfire :: View topic - Article Series Request: Greyhawk Almanac
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    Article Series Request: Greyhawk Almanac
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 15, 2011
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    From: Staug, FL, USA

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:59 am  
    Article Series Request: Greyhawk Almanac

    First off, I'd like to apologize for asking other people to work on a project instead of doing it myself. I can only give my apology, and the reason for so doing: I'm not nearly as well-versed in the in-depth knowledge of the setting and it's history to make any meaningful contribution.

    That said, I was looking over a list of older TSR products and the Poor Wizard's Almanacs caught my eye. For those of you unfamiliar, they were a series of supplements for the Known World/Mystara setting that chronicled events and happenings within the various nations of the setting, detailed important NPCs, etc. giving players and DM an annual update of the goings on.

    I thought that Greyhawk could really use such a thing given the many eras of play and the accompanying changes in history. In fact, some early articles by Gary Gygax in Dragon essentially did the same.

    I think it would be a very handy bit of reference for new and old players and DMs alike to have a series of articles that chronicled the annual events in Greyhawk from CY 576 onward considering how the setting has developed in both small and large ways.

    I know it'd be a massive project, but I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor and would allow some fleshing out of events.
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:08 am  

    Except for three, or four, people, I don't think anyone can cite -- off the top of their heads -- the chronological order of events in Greyhawk.

    Anyone who undertook this project would have to do research -- the same research you'd have to do. And they would have the same resources available to them that you have. Wink

    So, when are you going to start this project of yours? Cool
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    Paladin

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:11 am  
    Re: Article Series Request: Greyhawk Almanac

    Azzy1974 wrote:
    I think it would be a very handy bit of reference for new and old players and DMs alike to have a series of articles that chronicled the annual events in Greyhawk from CY 576 onward considering how the setting has developed in both small and large ways.

    I know it'd be a massive project, but I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor and would allow some fleshing out of events.

    Azzy,
    As MS points out there are few that can probably recite these events from memory. Yet I too feel its a worthy endevour (and to turn it about so to speak ) think that having someone not so close to the fire may produce more "light". Meaning a cold run often unvails forgotten aspects.
    I am happy to assist you on this quest, as I to am "newly arisen" to the world and have already had conversation (via Graytalk) with MS, Argon (and others) on topics around populations and languages with focus on their historical development thru the ages. These researches have brought me thru tombs and threads that would certainly be interrelated to you and your quest I think.
    I propose an "alliance with the dark" hehe and allow those with the events commited to memory be our muse, guide and critique.
    G
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:05 pm  

    A partnership between the Dark Lord and Azzy? Shocked

    Why, that's so crazy . . . it just might work! Surprised Evil Grin

    So, get to it! I can't post it until you guys write it, so . . .

    Crack!

    Mwahahahahahahaha
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    Paladin

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:01 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    A partnership between the Dark Lord and Azzy? Shocked

    Why, that's so crazy . . . it just might work! Surprised Evil Grin
    Crack!


    Yea Im not surprised you would be the first to reply Mystic-Scholar, surely based on track record, Argon and SirXaris cant be far to follow... so never fear Azzy, we already have attracted the attentions of the CF Deities! Let the blessing be plentiful....... hehehehe
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:21 pm  

    Somewhere around here you can find a link to the Greychorondex that would be a great outline.
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    Paladin

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:49 pm  
    Places to start

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Somewhere around here you can find a link to the Greychorondex that would be a great outline.

    Wolfshire,
    Thanks all donations are welcome... any idea if it was an old forum thread or in the wiki? did a search and nada
    UPDATE
    thanks to Argon, GLH_PSmedger, and Michael they pointed me to the right thread.
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/ghchrondex.php
    Though it does prose a new challenge.
    Steven B. Wilson --Tamerlain@AOL.Com is the originator and rightly should be in the loop if we buld apon his efforts
    As Wolfshire directed, it does seem a good starting point.


    Last edited by Dark_Lord_Galen on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:56 pm  

    Azzy,
    I would also add we need to avoid duplication of effort and publicated works. When re-reviewing poor wizards** my first thoughts were how much it reminded me of the 80s publicated gazetter and the out of the ashes works . I dont think we should mirror the gazetter and past works ( there is many varied tombs) I would think the effort is better served from a broad chronical of that hstory ( with it as the reference points) and drive the detail from that time line forward.
    Further an almanac by definition can vary from a history to a weather and geographical index... I think we need to define as a group where / what the end product goal is and back up step by step from there.
    We can not get "there" if we don't know where we are going.
    I forsee a timeline of events, a chronical or narrative of sorts of prime events, prominent characters, perhaps political changes, etc.
    Of course, this could be collective or may be better suited as a focal point via links etc to jump from to provide credit where those that have come before certainly deserve.
    Just open thoughts....
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:16 pm  

    Considering that there is not much information in the official products that chronicle Greyhawk, this sort of project would contain more fan fiction than anything else. This is of course the reason why more than few people can recall the history of many areas in Greyhawk(because there isn't much of it). If you have access to most Greyhawk products and early 1E AD&D modules, plus a few early issues of Dragon Magazine which further build upon information on the happenings in the lands covered in the 83' World of Greyhawk boxed set, you have everything you need to piece together some history of any area.

    Basically, anybody could put together an existent history of any area based on what has been published, but for most areas, there simply won't be much material at all. Convenient tools, such as the Encyclopedia Greyhawkia by Jason Zavoda, make it all the more easier to locate such information. Nobody should feel intimidated about taking on such a project. Trust me. The gathering of information may take a bit of time, but you will find a lot of redundancy among the material, and that, ultimately, there is a lot less there than you would think, for most areas of the Flanaess(even for popularly covered areas like the Great Kingdom, Iuz, Furyondy, the Shield Lands, etc.).
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:44 am  

    Big C,
    Thanks for the words of encouragement. You do bring up a good point that I concidered yet didn't voice. At some point, since there is no more "published / canon" sources to pool from, more and more materials will be "homegrown" variety. This would lead to two possibilities.
    1> Set it so each DM can cannibalize it to fit his / her world after the last remaining canon elements play out.
    OR
    2> Is there thought or discussions around a "collective Canonfire circle of Eight" (so to speak) that would flesh out new "canonesk" ideas forward? I recall that at one time there was something that did this in the RPGA at one time. I realize this may not be as "sanctioned" as those events of the past, but would beat nothing....
    Just my two coppers
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:59 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    I'm not surprised you would be the first to reply Mystic-Scholar, surely based on track record . . .


    Razz

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Argon and SirXaris cant be far to follow . . .


    I wouldn't be surprised. Those two follow me around like . . . Shocked

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    We already have attracted the attentions of the CF Deities! Let the blessing be plentiful . . .


    A hex and a pocks upon thee and thy efforts! Evil

    Not buying it, eh? Oh well! After all, we are only the Avatars of the Gods anyway. Wink Happy

    Can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Cool
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    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:14 pm  

    Yeah, basically the early Dragon Magazines the original poster mentioned+The Adventure Begins+Living Greyhawk Gazetteer tells you everything there is to know from 576 CY to 591 CY. It's not a lot of material.

    After that, there's Living Greyhawk, Paizo's adventure paths, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. Living Greyhawk would the the trickiest thing to compile, since there's so much of it, it's not all commonly available, and in some cases even the triads ever recorded everything that happened. But that's just one campaign, albeit a massive one, and it's perfectly reasonable to ignore it.

    The Mystara almanacs were much more than lists of current events, though. They were also gazetteers of the setting, with weather forecasts, holidays, atlases, lists of religions and mountain heights, and much more.
    Paladin

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The Mystara almanacs were much more than lists of current events, though. They were also gazetteers of the setting, with weather forecasts, holidays, atlases, lists of religions and mountain heights, and much more.


    Rasgon,
    First THANKS for also tossing two coppers our way! I have read Alot of your threads and count you among those that know.
    I also agree with your assessment of The Mystara almanacs. Don't get me wrong, not shying away from the other elements that were addressed, however, its a fine line between helpful tool and too much dogma. I would hope to contribute a tool that (in this fast paced world we all endure) helps bring flavor to the table, not simply stuffs the shelf so to speak.
    Hence I why I called forth feed back as to what the learned and respected 'hawkers would find useful.
    Azzy,
    Hope you don't feel I have usurped your thread, just a dominant personality peeking out and wanting to be helpful.
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:26 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...however, its a fine line between helpful tool and too much dogma. I would hope to contribute a tool that (in this fast paced world we all endure) helps bring flavor to the table, not simply stuffs the shelf so to speak.

    Hence I why I called forth feed back as to what the learned and respected 'hawkers would find useful.


    To that end, I suggest you avoid specifics like weather charts for each area, highest mountain ranges, and other such geo-atmospheric features. Firstly, those kinds of information are some of the least used (because they're boring rolleyes Razz ). Secondly, they are actually limiting each DM's creativity. If I want the highest mountain peak in the Flanaess to be in the Griff mountains, but the information you publish claims that the highest mountain is within the Barrier Peaks, I'm now forced to either contradict canon (something I or my players may balk at) or give up my own creative plans and concede to what you've published.

    So, focus on brief summaries of interesting events and NPCs and allow each DM and their player group to fill in the specifics of how those events came to happen. Describe the weather and geographical features in broad terms that allow each DM to tailor the specifics of any area to their own tastes without having to worry about a player pointing out that s/he has violated canon by blatantly disregarding the published material.

    In summary, offer tantalizing bits of information in the form of inspirational teasers that any DM can develop in any direction s/he wishes.

    SirXaris
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:03 pm  

    Sir Xaris makes a good point DLG.

    I would also add that speculation can easily be ignored or followed so speculating on something that is plausible is fine. This does not make it so but can lead to more creativity on interested parties.

    I look forward to all your efforts and Azzy you have a partner to aid you bounce ideas off each other. In the end you may be surprised at what you can develop. Who said Dark Lords can't be helpful and noble? Laughing

    Later

    Argon
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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:12 am  

    I'm wading through the modules, picking out names of people and places, paragraphs of descriptions, and notes on the ongoing timeline. It's very time consuming. I do miss the online weather forecaster though.

    Here's an example of the notes I've made as best I can from the Keoland teasers and modules. The project has taken so long that we're now on a different edition. I think what I'd be inclined to do is re-edit to remove edition specific things like classes, and bits that will depend on your own campaign, such as class levels, and leave things like that up to the needs of the individual DM (LG heroes and villains had variable levels anyway):

    Ravonnar (fortified keep and village): Leadership conventional; Alignment LG; Population 1,040 (human 89%, halflings 6%, half-elves 2%, gnomes 1%, half-orcs 1%, other 1%); GP Limit 800gp; Assets 41,600gp;
    Authority Figures: Lord Watcher Althon, Most Stoic Owlbear (Fg13, LG), Margrave of Mandismoor of the Royal Faction; Trizban Kerdylan (Clc10, LG), eccentric priest of Heironeous; Trad Kerdylan (Ari8, LN) Castellan of Ravonnar, elder grandson of Trizban; Sir Sterling Kerdylan (Pal17, LG), paladin of Lydia, younger grandson of Trizban.
    Important Individuals: Archmage Meckser (Illst13, ArM1, CG), gnome wizard; Shifty Pete (Rog13, N), local rogue; Bargest Battleaxe (Clc14, NG), dwarven cleric of Heironeous; Iyan-Lokidre (Rng12, CG) wood elf archer; Dimnailden ‘Nailz’ (Rog9, CN), Sir Sterling’s gnomish herald; Arlana Kerdylan (Pal4, LG), granddaughter of Trizban; Councillor Indrazor (Clc11, LE), Priest of Wee Jas

    The infamous fortress of Ravonnar, on the edge of the Rushmoors, marks the northernmost extent of the March. Ravonnar is situated on a low hill some two miles from the High Bridge over the Javan River by which the Royal Road makes its way out of the kingdom proper and winds into the Stark Mounds bound for Gorna (see the Grand Duchy of Geoff). A small town outside its walls to the west serves the citadel, and the area is also host to an overcrowded shantytown of so-called "Geoffugees," known as New Hope.
    The region is populated by Keoish townspeople living on the verge of the Rushmoors and the debatable lands on the border with Sterich, and a few adventurers looking for opportunity. Refugees from Geoff have also crowded back into the area of Ravonnar in eager anticipation of the liberation of their homeland.
    Ravonnar is a sprawling, stony edifice that a visiting Elder Engineer from the dwarven stronghold at Silverpass once described as, "very near to properly done." This was high praise from such a dwarf. Some of the older parts of the fortress are uninhabited, including some of the old dungeons.
    The Margrave of Mandsimoor is Lord Watcher Althon, Most Stoic Owlbear (Fg13, LG) of the Knights of the Watch. The Castellan of Ravonnar is Trad Kerdylan (Ari8, LN) who was appointed following the death of his father Sir Jamus Kerdylan in 592 CY.
    Other family members who still inhabit Ravonnar include his grandfather, the eccentric cleric of Heironeous, Trizban Kerdylan, Dauntless Chimera (Clc10, LG), Trad’s younger brother, the famed adventurer, Sir Sterling Kerdylan (Pal17, LG), and his sister, Arlana Kerdylan (Pal4, LG).
    Sterling’s adventuring companions are also often present at Ravonnar, including Archmage Meckser (Illst13, ArM1, CG), Shifty Pete (Rog13, N), Barghest Battleaxe (Clc14, NG), Iyan-Lokidre (Rng12, CG), and Dimnailden (Rog9, CN), also known as ‘Nailz,’ Sir Sterling’s irascible gnomish herald. The eccentric gnome wizard, Meckser, has converted a grain silo into his ‘wizard’s tower’ where he pores over texts, tomes, and ancient legends.
    Notable mercenaries are the Justice Blades, a loose organization of religiously motivated adventurers which has recently become more accessable following the events in the west. Contact can usually be made through Harek Balfor (Fg6, LG), at the Blade’s Rest Inn. Although usually affiliated with a religion, this group doesn't mandate any defined deity and are well respected and accepted in Mandismoor and Cryllor. Prominent members include Thomas Sorenson (Pal9, LG), paladin of Wee Jas from Mandismoor, who rides a dire horse companion, named Gloaming.
    A temple of Pelor lies two days’ ride south of Ravonnar, on the border of Geoff, in the Barony of Solas (see the County of Flen).

    The Blade’s Rest Inn: The owner and bartender here is Harek Balfor (Fg6, LG), an affiliate of the Justice Blades.

    DM’s Notes: When troop numbers at the fortress were reduced to assist the Army of Liberation in Geoff in 592 CY, Ravonnar began to suffer increasing attacks from undead. Eventually, the Royal Standards were recalled from Geoff to reinforce the garrison of Ravonnar against Night Terrors. The fortress was temporarily home to a huge contingent of 5,000 Keoish Royal Standards in 593 CY, although they have since moved on.
    A Suel noblewoman with a proclivity for carrying realistic child dolls and antique white ball gowns has been making the rounds near Fort Ravonar. She seems to "haunt" old book and curio shops along the Upper Flen, always seeking out dated trinkets and relics of a past age. She claims to be recently on sabbatical from Dilwych. She seems to want to raise her children outside the corrupting influences of non Suel but besides her realistic dolls she does not appear to have a husband or children of her own. She is known as the White Lady (Wz10, EfM5, NE)
    Two attempts to return Geoff refugees to their homeland was blocked by an entity known as the Dread Empress of the Rushmoors. The exact reasons are unknown but some speculate that this entity simply wished to see continued suffering in Keoland.
    Local adventurers recently made contact with a skulk community in the Rushmoors, struggling to survive, stealing from human settlements in both Gran March and Keoland to supply most of their needs. Many have adopted the faith of Wastri in recent years, in some small way acknowledging their inferiority and hoping to be set aside as one race fit to serve the masters. Many of their more violent number have gone missing lately; they blame nameless things that dwell deeper in the swamp. Some suspect that they are being used as a breeding-ground for an unspeakable evil.
    Cultists of Vecna masquerade as Wastriggi in Ravonnar and playing both the nobility and the refugees off against one another in an apparent attempt to destabilise the area. Many skulks have plagued Ravonnar, aiming to either kill or kidnap the children of the nobility. These creatures have a supernatural ability to blend into the background and are skilled assassins as well. Several people have been slain during their attacks. The skulks carry letters and documents on them purportedly from either the Wastriggi or the Scarlet Brotherhood, but closer inspection may reveal that these documents are shams. Secret messages hidden within revealed this to be the work of cultists of the Whispered One, commanded by a covey of vampiric hags from the Rushmoors.
    The fortress becomes the primary Watcher stronghold in the Kingdom with the fall of the Knights of Goarada in 595 CY. When things began to stablise in eastern Geoff, many refugees at Ravonnar began to return home. The town surrounding the fortress is still mildly swollen with Geoffugees who have yet to return to their beleagured homeland.
    A councillor at Fort Ravonnar, one Indrazor (Clc11, LE) who many think of as a cleric of Wee Jas is an ardent follower of Wastri.
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:32 am  

    That's all quite interesting, PaulN6.

    At the risk of coming off as a rules lawyer, I'll note that I found the following combination to be a bit strange...

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Sir Sterling Kerdylan (Pal17, LG), paladin of Lydia, younger grandson of Trizban.

    ...Dimnailden ‘Nailz’ (Rog9, CN), Sir Sterling’s gnomish herald;...


    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:11 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Sir Sterling Kerdylan (Pal17, LG), paladin of Lydia, younger grandson of Trizban.

    ...Dimnailden ‘Nailz’ (Rog9, CN), Sir Sterling’s gnomish herald;...


    I'll have to agree with Sir Xaris on this one.

    According to the rules, "Law" opposes "Chaos."

    While "Good" does oppose "Evil," your character is not "Good Lawful," he is "Lawful Good." In short, he is not primarily "Good," he is primarily "Lawful."

    I don't think your Paladin would have a Chaotic companion. Yes, I know, your Paladin is somehow "different."

    But I don't accept that. But, as the "Rule book" says, whether or not your character is "untrue" to his alignment -- that's up to the DM. (Not the character).

    That's the way I play it, but to each his own.
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    Paladin

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:57 am  

    Wow PaulN6 good detail... my concern with that level would be 2 fold
    1>If others' campaigns have made action against NPC details in their own campaign. (but guess they can modify from what we post)
    2> Ive been out of touch with the "newer" Greyhawk supliments (been on 10 year sabatical) so my access to out of print elements will need support of others.
    But do like the level of detail around NPC and town heiarchy.

    Thanks for the feedback Sir Xaris, and agree on the geographical "detailing", and when it comes to weather (IMO) is best left to the DM to define if its raining... though may find a regional norm usful. Seems I remember reading there was some canon tables that defined that once apon atime..... my have to skulk the dark reaches and crypts of my memory to remember where I saw that.

    All thanks again for the threads.... all input is welcome.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:59 am  

    Lydia is NG so a worshipper of hers can be one step away from Neutral and one step away from Good. There is nothing absolutely wrong with the thief being CN and still worhipping Lydia but the alignments are just supposed to give a snapshot of how that NPC might be played. I think the dynamic between the two was that the gnome was always getting into mischief, despite the paladin's best efforts to rehabilitate him and much hijinks resulted. That said, there is no reason why anybody cannot change the alignments, levels, races, classes or affiliations of any of the NPCs. This is just meant to inspire ideas.

    I've already incorporated adventures into my campaign that have occurred years before they 'officially' did in the LG timeline.
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:19 pm  

    I was speaking of their relationship to each other, NOT their relationship with their goddess.

    The Paladin and Thief would not "hang out" with each other, because of their opposed alignments. That has nothing to do with them worshiping the same goddess.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:55 pm  

    Lol - well a paladin and a thief would not hang out with each other unless perhaps they liked each others' company? Perhaps the paladin wanted to show the thief a better way to live? Perhaps he hoped to inspire him? Perhaps he just wanted him where he could keep an eye on him? If you want to apply rules lawyering instead of storytelling, paladins have never been banned from hanging out with thieves (and most thieves were not even allowed to be of good alignment in 1e). There did exist a ban on paladins associating with evil characters in 1e but in my long adventuring career I've seen a few paladins bend that rule when they had to and repent later.

    All that aside, I think that these might have been actual PCs of some of the players in the LG campaign and these rough drafts only represent what could be gleaned from the narrative on the forums. They are not definitive. If people want to play in 4e, the paladin of Lydia does not even have to be Lawful Good. Don't get too hung up on the detail. There was a lot of stuff in LG that I thought was derivative and downright cheesy. People can take inspiration from what they like and ignore what they don't.
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    Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:39 pm  

    1st edition PHB, page 24:
    "Paladins will have henchmen of lawful good alignment and none other; they will associate only with characters and creatures of good alignment; paladins can join a company of adventurers which contains non evil neutrals only on a single expedition basis, and only if some end which will further the cause of lawful good is purposed."


    I'm sure 2nd edition says the same, likely verbatim.


    That said, I must agree that a paladin (LG by requirement) would not have a CN individual on his payroll. Of course, in 1st edition, they did not allow for a CG thief. Even so, a paladin would prefer to be around lawfully aligned individuals if possible as well as good.
    For hirelings or henchmen, the paladin would insist on lawful good.
    At least, that's my opinion.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:41 am  

    Crumbs I'd forgotten just how restrictive the earlier editions were! Rangers had to give away any money they couldn't carry too. Still, the restrictions of paladins were rarely adhered to in their entirety and they were something that a lot of players used to moan about - dictating role-playing within the rules. I played a session in somebody else's campaign and I was disturbed that the paladin was adventuring with an evil gnome assassin! In fact, she released some goblin prisoners that night because the group had hinted strongly that they were going to summarily execute them the next day (it was that old if we let them live they will have more goblin children who will rob and steal etc xenophobic argument). I did all right out of it as the goblins agreed that I would always be entitled to safe passage through their territory. Still, they were probably killed by some other level one group the following week but at least my conscience was clear.

    LG was 3e too I suppose; were they as restrictive there? I think they were far more flexible or there would be problems with players turning up at tables with incompatible alignments and stuff. Certainly in 4e even the paladin and their henchmen can be all over the place.

    Honestly, I don't recall if the gnome's alignment was listed in a 'canon' LG document or if it was an approximation based on the Rushmoors narrative. I would probably have made him CG so it might have been listed officially as CN. All I recall is that the dynamic was one of the paladin being exasperated by the gnome's unpredictable behaviour. I suppose one has to wonder that, from a role-playing perspective, how is a paladin supposed to know what alignment his henchmen is until he employs him (beyond sensing that he isn't evil at the job interview)? Maybe the gnome was fired the following week?
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:47 am  

    More generally, I have something of a dilemma about the degree to which I should take it upon myself to edit the information to something that I find more acceptable or if I should just list the information as I found it. For example, the wood elf's name was Ian, which I took upon myself to edit to Iyan, which I may re-edit to an even longer, more elven name later on. When I go back to edit everything after the first draft, I will probably make more changes along the lines suggested here (although I can't see the gnome being anything other than CG to remain faithful to his strained relationship with his boss). I will probably 'downgrade' a lot of the wizard educational establishments as pretty much every nation began to channel Hogwarts and that never spelled Greyhawk to me.
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:53 am  

    Sorry for the late response... I've been away for the weekend (Acererak's Tomb beckoned). ;)

    Dark Lord, no need to apologize for "usurping" the tread... I'm quite fine with it, actually. I look forward to seeing what we can accomplish.Should the project consider the events of the published modules to have happened? If so, we'll have to figure the rough dates the events take place (I known that there's some debate when ToEE actually takes place).

    I'll try to get my GH resources together and see what I've got. Thank you guys for the links that you've provided.
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:31 am  

    I can provide some rough timeline information for the countries I have reviewed to date. It's also possible that some of the triads kept their own timeline documents for the individual regions. I can certainly do a quick search if I know where to sent any resulting documentation.
    Paladin

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:59 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I can provide some rough timeline information for the countries I have reviewed to date. It's also possible that some of the triads kept their own timeline documents for the individual regions. I can certainly do a quick search if I know where to sent any resulting documentation.

    Paul
    Happy to recieve any offerings to the alter you wish to sommon forth!
    feel free to link here or to my email (DMsCreateworlds@aol) Our two becomes three! Feel the Power! Mawaaahahaa
    Azzy, I agree and am good with it either way. (just need a consensus from the Hawkers at large) as for timeline discrepancies, I think MS, Argon, SirXaris and Others can guide us. Rasgon & Cebrion's knowlege well knows no depths as well, I think we could summon there wisdom if the "sacrifices were appealing" hehe (ie we do the leg work, they have full plates but are always helpful with accurate feedback)
    Lastly, I am nearing completion to the first draft of the languages piece of this (which is where the journey began for me) once prused & polished by the "powers" it can be a crossreference for covering that element here. This past weekend I dug out some archived boxes from the "grave" (as my wife puts it, normal people say storage hehe) and am going to dig out the old mods and mags and see what I can find.
    Path forward is (IMO) define framing. and what elements fill it (detail at this point is fluff) I forsee items such as :
    Need to have
    Country, major cities, population sectional, languages, major events & occurances by locale, Major NPCs & alliances, Popular & unique locations, Supporting references.
    Alturnate Items could include:
    Predominant Alignment or religious faiths, regional weather norms, political structure (ie monarchy, dictatorship, etc), Army & milita
    Unlikely but Possible:
    Major Temples & Shrines, Holidays & festivals, Commerce & Trade, Monster types (common / uncommon / rare) for the region, DMs Springboard
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:58 am  

    Sorry, Azzy, one last "side trip."

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Crumbs I'd forgotten just how restrictive the earlier editions were!


    That's on me, PaulN6. Embarassed

    I sometimes forget that later editions changed some of that. I'm 1e and 2e in my actual game play. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:13 pm  

    @ PaulN6

    I understand your concern and agree that you should leave it as you find it documented. I mentioned it in case it was a mistake/oversight. If the official document lists it that way, then maintain the records true to their origin. Every DM is perfectly able to alter minor things like that to fit the rules of his or her campaign if such alterations are necessary. If you change it yourself, you're still leaving it up to every other DM to accept your change or alter it themselves anyway.

    PaulN6 wrote:
    More generally, I have something of a dilemma about the degree to which I should take it upon myself to edit the information to something that I find more acceptable or if I should just list the information as I found it. For example, the wood elf's name was Ian, which I took upon myself to edit to Iyan, which I may re-edit to an even longer, more elven name later on.


    Same comment as above, though in such a circumstance, you might add your own small alterations. For example, you could list the name as it officially appears, then put your change in parentheses after it: "Ian (Iyandrendirillilianannonphiluvius)" Laughing

    SirXaris
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:53 pm  

    I also may be a bit slow-going on this, too, as I'm also working on other projects as well (one of which is compiling a list of Greyhawk monsters from 1e (including MM, FF, MM2, MotP, OA as well as GH-specific modules and other sources) & 2e (primarily just the GH-specific material), and listing their whereabouts in 3.x sources. This is being done so I can compile all those monsters in an easier access and more immediate for when I DM.

    On the almanac front, I might try to adapt the old weather rules from Dragon magazine and the WoGH boxed set to something a bit more generally accessible.
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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:36 pm  

    I've always wanted some proper wandering monster tables for various locations, building on the original ones in the Greyhawk supplements, which only had early 1e monsters listed There are so many small regions of forest, swamp, hills etc in each nation, particulalarly following the LG gazeteers and Anna's maps. It might be nice to have tables acknowledging specific creatures that might dwell therein.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:57 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I've always wanted some proper wandering monster tables for various locations, building on the original ones in the Greyhawk supplements, which only had early 1e monsters listed There are so many small regions of forest, swamp, hills etc in each nation, particulalarly following the LG gazeteers and Anna's maps. It might be nice to have tables acknowledging specific creatures that might dwell therein.


    That'd be a great way to link two projects and something I'd be interested in doing.
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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:11 pm  

    Just found this thread. I have a suggestion that might be useful. If it hasn't already been mentioned (I've only skimmed the thread so far due to a time crunch) you might want to peruse two Oerth Journal articles for cultural references based on the some of the major races:

    - The History of Oerth (OJ #1) by Steven B. Wilson (Tamerlain) and Grimulf
    - A History and Timeline of the Suloise (OJ #11) by Len Lakofka and Steven B. Wilson

    These articles form the base of Tamerlain's Chronodex, but are much less complex and have fewer conflicts to juggle.

    (And with that, I'm heading back into the streets of Crockport as I work on QMG2.)

    Wink
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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:49 pm  

    Braggi,
    thanks for the two coppers!
    Paul / Azzy .... Like u I think that a regional type of monster sort would be most useful... and if we are dreaming... (hehe) sort/ separate by day vs night and Hit Dice would be grand too.
    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:19 pm  

    Braggi wrote:

    - The History of Oerth (OJ #1) by Steven B. Wilson (Tamerlain) and Grimulf
    - A History and Timeline of the Suloise (OJ #11) by Len Lakofka and Steven B. Wilson


    Quite a lot of those timelines is incompatible with more recent canon, though. I wouldn't recommend them at this point for material that's meant to be useful to others.
    Paladin

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    Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:12 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Braggi wrote:

    - The History of Oerth (OJ #1) by Steven B. Wilson (Tamerlain) and Grimulf
    - A History and Timeline of the Suloise (OJ #11) by Len Lakofka and Steven B. Wilson


    Quite a lot of those timelines is incompatible with more recent canon, though. I wouldn't recommend them at this point for material that's meant to be useful to others.

    Rasgon / Braggi,
    Not personally have read the topic matter & timeline aside, would some of the details be helpful or redundant?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:21 am  

    I recommend Rasgon answer that one. He likely has a good deal more knowledge on the subject then myself. My response was really more of a drive-by post and not meant to authoritative in any manner.

    Smile
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    Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:36 am  

    For the monster piece of this, I suggest we incorporate the thread rasgon started on GH monsters (http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4491) lots of good stuff there. Though dont intend on all the detail being resubmitted here, but great ideas on places of region to include them.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:30 am  

    I've been working for awhile on fleshing out the Greychrondex to include material from the LGJ's, some Dragon articles, Places of Mystery articles, Greyhawk-based Dungeon adventures, and basically any other source that is GH related. Some of the dates are supposition on my part, so you'd probably want a second opinion (Rasgon) on some of them. I'm doing it as an html file so I can color code dates like that and other things like when dates from two sources conflict. Anyway, I've been going at it in a haphazard manner in fits and starts, and it is incomplete, but y'all are welcome to what I have so far if you want to see it.
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    Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:27 pm  

    (OK, I'm a touch less rushed now. Smile )

    After taking some time to dig in a bit, I did come up with some stuff I think could be useful for the calendar portion of an almanac. This little list of links and ideas is a result of my spending last night designing a new game calendar for my personal campaign. (It gets its first trial run this upcoming Sunday, in fact).

    A few suggestions drawn from my late-night research, including both canon and fan sources:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Canon References

    * Basic calendar, months and moon phases explained: WoG Boxed set, Catalogue of the Flanaess - Page 5

    * Similar to the above, but also including holidays in and around the Free City: The Adventure Begins, Calendar section, Pages 39-47

    * the GH Wiki's calendar entry.

    Link: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Greyhawk_calendar

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Non-Canon, Fan References

    * If you are interested in the astrological aspects of an almanac, have a look for useful tidbits in Andy Miller's Constellations of Greyhawk article, Oerth Journal #22, page 34.

    Link (Standard Edition): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5851594/Downloads_Section/Oerth_Journal/OJ_22pf.pdf

    Link (Tarrasque Edition): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5851594/Downloads_Section/Oerth_Journal/OJ_22te.pdf

    * Here's a gem: A downloadable pdf version version of the calendar from a fan site with some useful items as a basis to format from. It tracks the phases of Luna and Celene. It also has a number of holidays plotted from a religious calendar created by two old-school 'Hawk fans, Joe Katzman and Jason Saunders back in 1994.

    Link: http://weirdscifi.ratiosemper.com/greyhawk/The_greyhawk_calender.html

    * In connection with the above, here are explanations for most, but not all, of the religious holidays, drawn from Mr. Katzman's and Mr. Saunders original work, from yet another fan site. (*Note*: A few of the holiday definitions are missing. I haven't been able to track down the original text file detailing all these holidays in a long time, so this is the best I can offer until I do so.)

    Link: http://rilltime.org/logs/cal/oerth_holidays.htm

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Utility

    * The freeware moon phase font, for giving a graphical representation of where Luna and Celene are in their cycles each month.

    Link: http://www.dafont.com/moon-phases.font

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hope some of this is useful. If I can find the full original article detailing those fan-made holidays online, I'll post a link.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ***Edit***

    After some digging and a few pleasant discoveries, here's a download link for the full Greyhawk Holidays text file by Katzman and Saunders. Open it in wordpad, MS word, OpenOffice or something similar to get a legible version.

    Link: http://www.reocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/calendar.txt
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    Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:35 am  

    Sweet Jeebus! Those are some nice links, Braggi. I appreciate any links and listings of resources that anyone can provide.

    By the way, has anyone ever used the weather generation system from Dragon 68/WoG boxed set? If so, what did you think of it?
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    Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:37 am  

    Actually, I use it regularly as a DM and have for some years. I cheat a bit though - there is a Windows-based, fan-written computer program that does all the calculations for you based on season, terrain and latitude. I managed to score it some years back. (It's still around on one of the reocities sites I mentioned in another post.) Works fine on Win 95, 98, 2000 and Win XP. (Can't speak for Vista or 7 though - haven't tested it on them.)

    You can find something similar online if you look, namely at least one web-based version of the generator. (Google should help there. Just drop in "Greyhawk weather generator" and you should be off to the races.)

    What do I think of it - well, I like it. It's designed for Oerth and having the weather generated for the PC's ahead of time adds a lot of flavor to the game. The tables account for things like weather slowing you down, alterations to your chance of going off course and the the effects of storms and the like. Just traveling, without random/monster encounters, can be an adventure all its own.

    The generator is complex and that can be clunky if you want to use it on the fly, until you know the tables really well. If you use an online version, it speeds things up considerably - enough so that you can get the daily weather encountered by the party at will.
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    Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:46 am  

    Never saw a good use for those weather charts; I am the DM- I control the weather. Laughing Seriously, the weather is not only a mood setter, but can be a story element. Any good story teller knows that, and knows what to do with it(no charts required). Wink
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    Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:16 am  

    I liked them but it was a real pain to try and map out wilderness adventures in advance and they are too complex to use on the fly. I liked the online weather forecaster scroll but that seems to be non-functional now. I'd really enjoy it if a functional program could replicate the table. I've never been able to get any others to work on my clunky old PC.
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    Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:39 pm  

    Personally I'm with Cebrion on the weather as it relates to game play, I think of weather as an "NPC" at times.
    For the function of this thread however, I still lean toward a "table" of sorts defining the "norms" by region versus a "generator" which, if DMs desired could still be provided via the downloadable section of our site.
    Just my two coppers
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:22 pm  

    Me three with Ceb. When western Sterich needs snow, by DM, it will snow.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:07 am  

    Yes that's true. Generally, random weather should just be used to add flavour and affect wilderness travel times.

    In 4e, plopping terrain features into combat encounters is much more important than in previous editions. Inclement weather can make a big difference to how a fight plays out so it should really be planned as part of the encounter.

    Personally, I would use wandering monster tables and weather generation tools ahead of time as inspiration for planned encounters. The more recent editions are too complex to run random stuff on the fly.
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:41 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:

    Not personally have read the topic matter & timeline aside, would some of the details be helpful or redundant?


    Some of them are helpful. It's just that a lot of it is contradicted by subsequent sources. For example, for my own use I made a version of Len Lakofka's Suloise timeline that cut out all the bits that have since been contradicted (or that I didn't like) and added in subsequent canon on the Suloise Imperium. For example, all the stuff on Genie Binders that Lakofka made central to the story of the Suel (to the point of basing their calendar on their date of creation) seems to have been retconned by Grodog in Dragon #294 to be artifacts created during the Baklunish-Suloise Wars millennia later. So my version of the timeline cuts out all the Binder stuff that Len Lakofka had put in. Genies should really be associated more with the Baklunish, anyway.

    I think I made a version of Steve Wilson's Baklunish timeline, too, that included subsequent canon and changed the bits contradicted by Erik Mona's "Baklunish Delights" in Oerth Journal #3, which fits much better with subsequent things Erik Mona wrote, like in "Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk."

    In the Flan timeline in OJ#1, it's largely the Vecna material that's problematic, since Steve Wilson took all of the wild rumors from Vecna Lives! that weren't supposed to be taken literally, and took them literally. For example, rumors that Vecna created the Bright Desert, which was actually the responsibility of Shattados. And Steve Wilson put Vecna in the eastern Flanaess and made him the leader of the Ur-Flan who attacked the City of Summer Stars, which isn't right - he belongs over on the other side of the Flanaess, in the Sheldomar Valley.

    Some of the timeline material in OJ#1 is absolutely inspirational or, at least, interesting, but I'd be careful with it if you're trying to mesh with subsequent canon.
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    Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:28 am  

    @ Rasgon: Thanks for the clarification. I genuinely had no idea how things had evolved with the timelines from the OJ!

    I'm used to running into inconsistencies between canon and fan works, but this opens a whole new can of worms. Is there anything else you can add to the list of historical errata from the OJ? It's very handy to know.

    @ The Floor: I had no desire to lead anyone down the garden path there; please accept my apologies for inadvertently doing so. (Guess I'll have to file this one under "pobody's nerfect".) Razz
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    Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:27 am  

    Braggi wrote:
    @The Floor: I had no desire to lead anyone down the garden path there; please accept my apologies for inadvertently doing so. (Guess I'll have to file this one under "pobody's nerfect".) Razz

    Braggi, Can't speak for any one else but don't feel "led" at all,,, keep those thoughts coming and thanks for your two coppers in this well... all angles are welcome.
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