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    Canonfire :: View topic - Economics - Long post
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    Economics - Long post
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:01 am  
    Economics - Long post

    This doesn't have to be GH-specific, but does anyone else use any form of the guidelines on placement of monetary treasure, economics, and taxes, etc... discussed in the 1e DMG, or make any other efforts to apply some realistic economics to their campaign? What kinds of experiences have you had with this?

    In my last campaign I started out having the players, as adventurers in the Keep on the Borderland, paying an adventurers tax. 10% tax on all monetary or other valuables (magic items, other than those with some obvious monetary value; for example - a broach of shielding made of precious metals and decorated with gems). After they first came to the Keep, the gate guards and the bailiff who was in charge of them knew what the deal was -- that they were crossing into the monster-infested border area and looting ruins. So every time they came back to the Keep they would have to declare what they had gained and 10% would be taken out. Assessments of non-coinage treasure was made by the scribe who was stationed at the gate with the guards. Just to warn them off trying to sneak treasure back in undeclared they were searched. One of the player felt this was unfair but I explained that while they were clearing the area of monsters the reward was they got to keep 90% of their loot. The rest of the players were okay with this, although the player who felt it was unfair from the get go really didn't, but he was treasure-grubbing jerk whose increasing demands for more and specific treasure eventually crashed the campaign. But that's a story for another time.

    When they became retainers of the Lord of the Keep they were exempted from the tax, my reasoning being this was an incentive by the Lord to gain such obviously valuable retainers, on top of the pay they would receive as his retainers. And for me, since they were working for the Lord I knew this would take them more away from straight-up dungeon-looting style adventuring.

    At another point I allowed for a player to secure a loan from the Temple of Zilchus (They being the biggest bankers IMC) for a magical research project he was working on and didn't have the ready cash for. 20% interest, payment due at the end of the season, which was several months away, so, plenty of time to gain treasure that could be used to pay the loan back. I pattern these banker-priests of Zilchus somewhat after medieval Italian bankers, although they're not tied down by canon laws against usury.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:29 am  

    Smillan,

    This is a topic that has had my interest for a while; I have been thinking of an article along these lines. As for assessing the loot of the adventurers at the keep's gate, letting them keep 90% is more than fair. In medieval Europe (or at least England and Normandy) discovered treasure usually belonged soley to the king, unless a land grant stated otherwise. In fact, Richard the Lionheart was killed trying to enforce this privelege.

    As far as the bankers are concerned, 20% is a pretty generous interest rate to extend towards an adventuer (shady ne'er do wells who are always on the go). What did they take as collateral? Historically, the Knight's Templar operated a system of "banks" providing letters of credit that could be redeemed between commanderies. Perhaps various merchant's guilds offer such a reciprocal service to each other.

    As far as my own thoughts; I liked to reduce the amount of cash in my campaigns, keeping to a more medieval theme (economically). This isnot hard, since many modules are written in a Monty-Haul style (The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh series, basically gives 1-3rd level adventurers 2500 gp each before loot is counted....). I usually reduce the cash awards by a factor of 10 or more, and focus more on in-kind rewards and debts of obligation. You cannot carry a herd of pigs with you, but you can keep a collection of valuable favors.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:27 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    This is a topic that has had my interest for a while; I have been thinking of an article along these lines. As for assessing the loot of the adventurers at the keep's gate, letting them keep 90% is more than fair. In medieval Europe (or at least England and Normandy) discovered treasure usually belonged soley to the king, unless a land grant stated otherwise. In fact, Richard the Lionheart was killed trying to enforce this privelege.


    Good point, and definitely something I'll consider in the future. It would make a nice lesson for greedy players even at the risk of making the campaign go all wahoonie-shaped.

    tarelton wrote:
    As far as the bankers are concerned, 20% is a pretty generous interest rate to extend towards an adventuer (shady ne'er do wells who are always on the go). What did they take as collateral? Historically, the Knight's Templar operated a system of "banks" providing letters of credit that could be redeemed between commanderies. Perhaps various merchant's guilds offer such a reciprocal service to each other.


    20% is indeed generous. I researched medieval interest rates and decided to go with the lower end since they were dealing with the most reputable of money-lenders. As far as collateral, by this point the players were the primary retainers of the exiled Marchioness of Sterich. While she wasn't exactly "the horse to bet on" she and they were living in exile in the court of the Countess of Flen (A cousin-by-marriage of the Marchioness IMC) so he was borrowing against his reputation as the member of a famous adventuring company and his standing in society. At lower levels none of the players would have gotten a deal like that.

    tarelton wrote:
    As far as my own thoughts; I liked to reduce the amount of cash in my campaigns, keeping to a more medieval theme (economically). This isnot hard, since many modules are written in a Monty-Haul style (The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh series, basically gives 1-3rd level adventurers 2500 gp each before loot is counted....). I usually reduce the cash awards by a factor of 10 or more, and focus more on in-kind rewards and debts of obligation. You cannot carry a herd of pigs with you, but you can keep a collection of valuable favors.


    I like the focus on in-kind rewards and debts of obligation. Most of the players got that and attributed the necessary value to it.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:24 pm  

    Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions gives a "cargo tax" of at most 1%, and a precious metal tax of 1% for trading with foreign currency. However, later, when describing the Inspector of Taxes from the Greyhawk Revenue Service, it mentions that he "makes sure the coffers of Greyhawk stay full" by using the constables to levy somewhat arbitrary fines against those deemed to have a lot of money but to lack political clout.

    Personally, I just kept very loose track of the types of things that adventurers were bringing into a particular city (e.g. coins, jewelry, art, magic weapons, etc.), and started ratcheting down the exchange rate in 10% increments the more items of a particular type were sold. Once teleportation becomes an options, this results in players distributing their spoils in different locations to keep supply low.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:23 pm  

    I was waiting for one player in particular to start hiding treasure outside the keep. Fortunately, he didn't try it.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:44 pm  

    Grandmaster Smillan,

    I am happy to see that I am not the only DM who tries to add an element of financial and economic realism to gaming mechanics of his campaign setting. There are many rules I don't much care for b/c of monetary inflation in some aspects, while I think it is difficult to find information on others (see my previous posting on "Salaries," especially regarding hiring mages and priests).

    I grapple with economics frequently in my own game, if not with what I deem to be an appropriate wage for certain characters (those not listed in the DMG, either 1e or 2e, my preferred editions), then those regarding taxes as well. I do indeed apply taxes, and have found "The City of Greyhawk" boxed set to be useful, but that only applies to that setting. I have begun to delve into more far-ranging ideas of setting up a general idea for the economics of temples and guilds, yet that is only in its infancy at the moment, and only those that directly apply to my player. There is a whole complexity and nuance to consider with the flow of coin and goods, favors and debts. Any discussion by our fellows on this matter could only illuminate your posting, and help the common good in general.

    Just as an example and to share some 'for instances' in my own campaigns, a recent crusader of Heironeous has found himself destitute and turning not only to his church for aid, but also to a moneychanger's guildhall. In the end, the church could give him a better 'deal' (no shock), but he had to put up his only magical item, a shield, as collateral until he can pay off his debt. Another character down on his luck, a low-level mage, has agreed to work for the Church of Pelor for a modest fee, using what few spells he has at his disposal to assist that faith. He will have to augment his wage somehow, for the Church cannot pay him enough to really save up for more spells (adventure hook for the future). Finally, there is a Heironean paladin with ties to a guild of armorers (his family trade), and I am still trying to flesh that out. These are merely the best, most recent examples that may pertain to your own posting.

    Does anyone have references to certain source guides to assist (or figures they can share)?

    -Lanthorn


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:03 pm  

    I have often considered the writing of scripts such as the Templar did as a means to transport wealth, but the framework eludes me. I think ties to the major churches seems the obvious path, but can't see other non pious groups utilizing those..... perhaps a network with in the thieves guild to make for a "reputable front"?
    I did play around with counterfeit coins in a gaming session as well.
    The bigger challenge around enforcing taxes on bounty would be having "collectors" skilled enough to take the % from those that found it.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:11 pm  

    If you want a really good education on the possibilities of combining adventure with late medieval economics I can recommend the House of Niccolo series by Dorothy Dunnett. You'll start to see all kinds of possibilities for adventure in simple commodities.
    Another good book just to educate yourself on the history of banking, moneylending, etc... is Niall Ferguson's The Ascent of Money. Much of it is post-medieval, but there's still lots of interesting stuff.
    Paladin

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:16 am  

    @Smillan
    I'll give them alook thanks for the heads up... confused though.. looking at Amazon, are there 8 or 13 books to the series.?. I hate not getting all of one and not knowing how it ends.... Mad
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:11 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    @Smillan
    I'll give them alook thanks for the heads up... confused though.. looking at Amazon, are there 8 or 13 books to the series.?. I hate not getting all of one and not knowing how it ends.... Mad


    There are 8 books in the House of Niccolo series. I've only read the first 3 so far. The Chronicles of Lymond are about a descendant and some people count them as part of the same series. I tried reading the Lymond books first and couldn't get into them, but she wrote those in the 60's. I think her writing probably matured since then, or maybe I just wasn't in the mood at that time. She started the Niccolo books in the 80's. The Lymond books take place in the mid 1500's and the Niccolo books in the mid 1400's.
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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:25 pm  

    Economics in D&D is a funny thing, I believe.

    I think the first thing to realize is that, contrary to the loot from popular modules from 1e, farmers should be much poorer when you analyze it all. A farmer should really have, at the most, about a gold piece in saving. This makes the average human on the Flanaess have a net worth of usually only a few gold pieces.

    The economy is also never addressed because it would be very shoddy. People mostly barter, and when they buy things, they save for them. (They usually have on cow to milk, and slaughtering a cow or pig is a rare occasion.) Most people have no profession, and those who do usually partake in bartering.

    If you consider economics in a real world sense, the economy of the entire Flanaess is highly unstable. The biggest money changers out there get that money from adventurers, if they aren't themselves, who are only about 20% of the population at the most generous estimate. Most of the Flanaess' wealth seems to be in caches of dragons and evil creatures. Cash can also be replicated by more powerful people. Remember the literal infinite piles of money in Q1? Depending on how you handle that, that's a huge influx of money entering the system.


    So how do you handle economics? It is safe to assume that much of Greyhawk works on a feudal system, with the peasantry handing over part of their crop (since they don't have much money to be taxed) to their respective lord. Without a stable banking system as well, the economy is unstable.

    So, to get to your tax example: I remember that module. I believe the guards asked for a magic item at the portcullis, or something as equally as valuable? If they intend to do this to everybody at the entrance, they won't get much. At most, I predict it would be about 6 coppers or a maybe a silver piece if they are lucky.

    I, myself, make my bankers and merchants cut-throats. Adventurers are big business in little Orlane or Hococh, and they are big spenders. If you have a reasonable excuse, and they look rich enough, who is to say you can't increase rent to 2gp or 3gp for them? I also make selling rates considerably low, and only a good charisma check is able to raise it.
    Paladin

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    Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:31 am  

    Kestral wrote:
    I also make selling rates considerably low, and only a good charisma check is able to raise it.

    I agree with many of your points , especially when it relates to Serfs... they would generally barter their wares or skills..
    I also agree with employing CHR and Diplomacy Checks when PCs interact with others,,, adds depth and makes the PC think twice about plugging low numbers into that Stat.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:57 am  

    Typically, when characters find art objects or trade goods, merchants have them over a barrel. The characters (unless they have a stronghold) have no use for art objects, and the merchant knows it. They are lucky to get 10% of its value if they really put effort into selling it. They could try to cut out the middle man, but that could result in them having larger problems in the community. Plus, the final buyer probably knows the character's situation as well.

    One thing that can be tricky with applying economics is that many of the concepts we are familiar with in the modern world did not exist until the modern era. This does not mean they did not occur, but they were not understood. An example is inflation. When the Spanish were reaping the benefits of their Mexican and Peruvian mines, no one understood that they were devaluing precious metals in general. Everyone just thought the more gold, the better.

    In my opinion, if characters are following the laws of supply and demand, teleporting around to keep from saturating markets, and acting like commodities traders, then the game has become more a case Stock Exchanges and Tax Collectors than Dungeons and Dragons. Economics exists as a tool for the DM to model behavior, keep characters in check (or penury), and add realism. It is not meant to obviously dominate characters actions.

    I strongly recommend everyone interested in this topic read

    ...Wealth of Nations. While Adam Smith was writing in the 18th century, he does address the Middle Ages as well.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:33 pm  

    Friends of Oerth,

    Those of you with access to Bastion of Faith (featuring Heironeous and his clergy in much greater depth) may find their usage of Favor points as a commodity and currency to be applicable to your games. I have begun to use them in my own campaigns with all churches and temples instead of always relying upon coin transactions. This includes tithing and how the common rank-and-file or peasant class are able to garner not only aid from their local priests, but also how to pay off debts and pay homage to the Powers. Skilled laborers and craftsmen are now able to offer their wares and services instead of parting with what few coins they may be able to spare, while still able to contribute to their local religious institutions.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:32 pm  

    Ohhh, I love to dabble with economics!
    (Please remember that the following words are my opinions, not pure facts)

    Taxes:
    Taxation system should be fragmented and clumsy. Feudal system allows basically any small-time noble to have whatever taxes they wish, as long as they pay what is necessary to their liege. All in all nobles find it best to tax those you can't avoid paying them, such as peasant and other people with real estate in their lands. Taxing wandering people such as adventurers is difficult and many nobles find adventurers useful due to their ability slay monsters and general tendency to fix problems. If adventurers were taxed, they could easily move on to uncivilized lands or deal with some other kingdom who doesn't tax noble. Consider this: One king is smart enough to exempt adventurers from taxes. Within one month, how strong will his kingdom become when he has 99% of the epic-level characters who don't want to pay 1% customs for the artifacts they hold?
    Nobles mostly concentrate on peasants and other weaker people who are unable to relocate (that quickly) and taxing guilds and taking customs from caravans.
    However, if some adventuring group makes the mistake of buying property from some kingdom, they are automatically subject to taxes.

    Prices:
    Gold rush syndrome - Medieval society is not keen on fixed prices. Therefore rich wanderers have to pay higher prices than locals. Just think of any third world country. If you went there with your nice clothes and pretty little accent, you think you'd get the same price as everyone else? Of course not. People will charge you extra in my games for everything, because everyone knows you can afford it. Think of it this way: You sell iron rations. Normal people don't buy iron rations, but every week you would get visits from outrageously rich adventurers who buy your rations. You know perfectly well they don't care if the price is 5 sp or 8 sp. What would you do, really?

    Strong guild-system and the struggle of faiths:
    How do the merchants know that you're trying to sell 100% adamantine longsword? Perhaps it's only 95% pure? You need to get things certified. Same goes with magical items. Everybody knows 5% of magical items are cursed, so you need an Analyze Dweomer spell from a certain overpaid mage for EVERY single magical item you sell. Seriously, who wants to drink a Potion of Poison or wield a -2 sword? I guess no one... People should get very serious about any deals worth more 100 gp. No person in their right mind would spend that amount of money on something which is not 100% certain.

    Also priest won't sell you spells unless you're a devoted follower. In my games religion is simply not about collecting some cash with your holy powers. Almost every organized religion will use their holy powers to convert first and earn some quick cash is only secondary.


    Last edited by Sutemi on Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:26 am  

    Those are some very good points. I must admit, I pretty much just screw my players out of their money. Of course, I don't make them pay for material components, training, or a lot of other things, and I totally don't let them go to the "magic store" and buy stuff. They can play Diablo if they want to do that! So, taking their money in what they all claim as unfair taxes and such, though it always causes a row, well, it's just what happens.

    They found the mining claim from outside of Hardby on a dead Slavelord, and the two dwarves in the party were very interested. They did an entire Side Trek to Hardby, basically for this mining claim. When they found out that there was no mine, it was just a claim, they were pretty disappointed. Still, they used their mining skills to check it out, and I went with the old Guide to Dwarves to roll up the potential in the area. They found two areas of copper and one of iron; you never heard such complaining.

    That was nothing compared to when they found platinum. While they were all celebrating, the Despotrix hit them with a 50% tax. Regardless of their "claim" it's still her land! They were not happy, to say the least.

    I am not in any way a student of economics, but I have done some research into economics in the ancient world, back in college. Unfortunately, I didn't study the medieval world much. Still, I do remember reading some Chinese history, I think in the Tang Dynasty, though I can be sure. After a great seizure of Buddhist monasteries and properties (maybe 9th or 10th cent?) the land was given out to the peasants, kind of an attempt to create a more stable class. Anyway, they were given what amounted to low-interest mortgages, at a rate of about 85%. And we think we are getting hosed by banks!!!

    Yeah, I think true medieval economics would, and should, drive players nuts. I like a lot the stuff I just read, and will certainly use some of it.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:52 am  

    Sutemi wrote:

    Taxes:
    Taxation system should fragmented and clumsy. Feudal system allows basically any small-time noble to have whatever taxes they wish, as long as they pay what is necessary to their liege. All in all nobles find it best to tax those you can't avoid paying them, such as peasant and other people with real estate in their lands. Taxing wandering people such as adventurers is difficult and many nobles find adventurers useful due to their ability slay monsters and general tendency to fix problems. If adventurers were taxed, they could easily move on to uncivilized lands or deal with some other kingdom who doesn't tax noble. Consider this: One king is smart enough to exempt adventurers from taxes. Within one month, how strong will his kingdom become when he has 99% of the epic-level characters who don't want to pay 1% customs for the artifacts they hold?
    Nobles mostly concentrate on peasants and other weaker people who are unable to relocate (that quickly) and taxing guilds and taking customs from caravans.
    However, if some adventuring group makes the mistake of buying property from some kingdom, they are automatically subject to taxes


    I work from the assumption that even in areas bordering on monster-haunted regions where you get adventurers, most of these adventurers are relatively weak and not up to the potential of the players. The rulers don't know about the potential of the players so they're going to get taxed just like anyone else who was looting property that the ruler thinks of as belonging to him. Now the ruler could claim it all, but then he won't have adventurers coming in and clearing out monsters. At the same time you don't want to let these adventurers get away with all the loot. Yes, they might be clearing out territory you'd like to claim, but expansion like that costs money. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement.
    So, by the time the players have shown themselves to be relatively powerful, a ruler worth his salt has managed to make them his retainers. What if they players refuse? Well, that depends on the ruler, but I imagine most would feel a bit put off and would be nervous about having a group of powerful individuals around, so the party would most likely be shown the door. The party may be death on a stick, but they're 4 or 5 guys at the most against whatever small army the local baron has, so if they're not welcome in the area they better move on.

    Good points about the Gold Rush Syndrome and thoughts on the guild system.
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:37 pm  

    Wow! I like what I've read so far, fellas, and would love to write you all a disertation on what I've recently learned in The Middle Ages, a university class I'm taking for fun at the moment. But, there is no time, so I will sum up. Smile

    The feudal economy is what is refered to as a Gift Economy. In such a system, those of lower social class gift goods, money, and services to those above their station. This comes from the traditions of the Germanic tribes who would offer gifts to the powerful warlords that ruled them. As feudalism developed, this meant that nobles would pay tribute to kings and serfs would pay tribute to the nobles. Of course, since there was no social class lower than a serf, there was no one 'gifting' anything to the serfs, making it impossible for them to rise above their station economically.

    Cities were outside this system to a certain extent. Nobles lived in rural estates for the most part, ruling over, and collecting tribute from, their serfs. Cities, however, were governed by a mayor and saw the rise of the middle class - merchants. These cities were many times powerful enough to ignore a noble's demands for tribute and usually conceded to them only after forcing the noble into some agreement beneficial to the city in order to receive such payment. Such concessions were typically a promise not to tax merchants traveling through the countryside to or from that particular city. Accosting traveling merchants was generally the only way in which a noble could collect taxes from them during the High Middle Ages (circa 1000-1300 AD).

    As an aside, kings of the time had very little power as they relied on the willingness of the nobles to support them and provide armies when needed. Kings eventually learned to woo the middle class, the cities, who had money, with favorable laws in order to counter the rising power of the nobles. Eventually, this led to the nobles positions being weakened politically and the rise of the middle class to supreme economic status in the Industrial Age. (Note: Middle Class originally referred to social status rather than economic status.)

    SirXaris
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    Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:30 am  

    -"Technology" (magic and fantastic creatures), plus the fact that GH's culture is not medieval but quasi-medieval would modify things from a straight medieval economy.

    Magic ice boxes for Hobbit ice cream, for example. Razz Wink
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    Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:23 pm  

    Also bear in mind that medieval economic practices promoted cartels (guilds) very strongly. This means that if characters look to get a better deal on an item from another merchant in town, they are likely out of luck. Price and wage fixing are part and parcel of this economic model.
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    Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:39 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    Also bear in mind that medieval economic practices promoted cartels (guilds) very strongly. This means that if characters look to get a better deal on an item from another merchant in town, they are likely out of luck. Price and wage fixing are part and parcel of this economic model.


    Well I'd like to disagree with you depending on what you mean by "price fixing". Price fixing generally means that you can't rip off tourists, rich wanderers and unwanted elements such undesirable ethnic groups.

    In my game the guilds merely set the minimum price (which is a semi-secret) and guarantee the quality of the products. People who buy things from guilds always know what they are getting but they have to pay extra if they have foreign accents. Guild-members are not permitted to lie about their goods or cheat, but they are perfectly fine with charging double if they can get away with it. Guilds don't kill the art of haggling.

    Summa summarum: Price tags are a modern western thing but quality is forever.
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 am  

    Sutemi,

    Actually, what I mean by price fixing is this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing

    This is the commonly understood definition of price-fixing. As you can see, price-fixing has little to do with ripping off tourists or ethnic groups, but summarizes the nature of cartel (guild) activity much the way you did in regards to minimum prices.
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:09 am  

    Oh, ok. Sorry, I wasn't aware of the term (ESL) and I drew conclusions. Now I know more, thank you.
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:11 am  

    One of the aspects that I used regarding the power of the local ruler, and as an issue of taxation and security, was the use of licenses. As I see it anyone who would want to out into dangerous and unexplored places to clear out monsters has got to be nuts, and anyone who can actually do it without getting killed by the first kobold they see is someone who is rather remarkable. So, it seems that as a ruler trying to secure an area like that, without wasting lots of my own troops, would want to keep taxes to a modest 20% of whatever is found to promote people like that to come into my lands. Then again, you can't have people with such power and audacity roaming about unchecked, so requiring licenses to carrying weapons into cities would be rather profitable. Then again, as a ruler, I would want these groups to be known to my people (and guards), so they would have to have an Adventurer's License and Charter detailing their rights and identifying themselves (can't have just anyone wandering about with a sword claiming they only owe 20% in taxes because they are doing the local lord a favor).

    As for interest rates on loans from the Church of Zilchus: I charge them 5% interest per day. And if they want the Church to look after items, and money, there is another fee to do that, usually 1% per day. And, of course, the Church reserves the right to loan out those magic items, and money, to others (this usually does not extend to wands, rods, potions, or any other magic item with a limited number of uses).

    And don't forget about toll roads. Lords in my campaign usually charge 1 cp per mile, per head, per axel (and at the gate of a city, unless it is Verbobonc or some other rich city). Then there are fines for violating laws. Local lords don't tolerate Bands (armed, or not), or groups of more than a dozen, so anyone with a band (who isn't a recognized lord of Verbobonc, Veluna, or Furyondy) must pay to have a permit (for a short time) or a license (for a longer period), and this varies upon whether the local lord trusts the adventurers to let this band be armed (which is a different, more expensive license). If someone tries to enter the City of Verbobonc with a weapon but without a license incurs a special 'holding penalty' for the privilege of the City Guard seizing the weapon and its return upon the owner's leaving the city.

    Verbobonc is a LG city (with some strong CG elements), and allows some personal freedoms other places don't, or wouldn't. Of course the local ruler is interested in securing the welfare of his people. Stiff reminders from the time of the Temple's rise and downfall keep these laws in force.

    Those are some of the taxes my lords levy on players. There are others, but those are the ones that come to mind. My players usually pay a lot of money for Adventurer Licenses so they don't have to pay all these little amounts and they have shown themselves Friends of the Realm through knocking off the Temple (yes, they finally finished the module after 3 years and over a 1,000 game sessions - maybe I should start a thread about that).

    The Grey Mouser
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:46 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    Taxes:
    Taxation system should be fragmented and clumsy. Feudal system allows basically any small-time noble to have whatever taxes they wish, as long as they pay what is necessary to their liege. All in all nobles find it best to tax those you can't avoid paying them, such as peasant and other people with real estate in their lands. Taxing wandering people such as adventurers is difficult and many nobles find adventurers useful due to their ability slay monsters and general tendency to fix problems. If adventurers were taxed, they could easily move on to uncivilized lands or deal with some other kingdom who doesn't tax noble. Consider this: One king is smart enough to exempt adventurers from taxes. Within one month, how strong will his kingdom become when he has 99% of the epic-level characters who don't want to pay 1% customs for the artifacts they hold?
    Nobles mostly concentrate on peasants and other weaker people who are unable to relocate (that quickly) and taxing guilds and taking customs from caravans.
    However, if some adventuring group makes the mistake of buying property from some kingdom, they are automatically subject to taxes.

    I'd like to address this: this really isn't possible as it assumes that many "epic-leveled" characters can travel. What would happen is that you have an influx of weaker people who call themselves adventurers.

    Let's look at Mordenkainen, he's a member of the Eight, has his own tower, and has no need for money at all (That's what you get out of a several decade long adventuring career). If the King of Nyrond decides that no adventurer is getting taxed, what entices Mordenkainen to go? Let's look at a lower-level guy then. A guy at around 7th or 8th level, who has no stronghold. He's an adventurer: What does he care about taxes either? He might get into a fight with a duplicitous because the merchant is pricing the ruby that he found at 10%, but he's not going to care about a paltry 1% tax.

    The adventurer is also not sedentary, why would he stay in Nyrond if the Nyrondese king levvied a low tax? He has no reason to! He might stay in a city for at most a year to recuperate from a really harsh adventure, maybe he just fought off a Demigod, but as soon as he can he'll take his new treasure and experience and go out again. By the time he is sedentary, he would be too bound to where he is usually. A wizard needs a tower to stay, a priest needs a temple to manage and watch over, a thief might oversee a guild, and a fighter is in a position of power.

    Kings are usually higher leveled themselves, but regardless of that, they know these things. They also know that leveled people, who they regard as people with higher levels of skill, are rare. I read a table once that figured in that there is about 10,000 level one characters per every 500,000 or something to that regard. When you go higher up the ladder in level, that number gets smaller. The bottom line, is that these people that you want the King to not tax are too hard to find and too few and far between.
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    Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:41 am  

    I think an error we are all making is fixing our attention as a tax on income (loot). More likely, characters would have to pay a tax on wealth (accumulated savings). Another tax angle we have all neglected is forced, or corvee, labor. The players, as itenerate travelers, are likely considered peasants or lower, and would be eligible to work on the local lords roads or harvest his crops for a week each month. Since they are likely skilled combatants, they might also be used to perform guard duty at the castle gates. Of course, a week is a lot of adventuring time, so maybe paying off the castellan to get out of the work would not be a bad idea. Likewise, if they are asked to perform (non-adventurous) military duties, they may decide to pay scutage, the fee knights paid to avoid oversees service. These payments would of course be scaled to the characters wealth and power, but would at least help them avoid tedious labors.
    Another action for controlling character wealth is just good old fashioned role-playing. Paladins and some priests are not allowed to accumulate wealth beyond a certain amount. Also, some characters may describe themselves as living for the moment; they would likely be blowing their wealth between adventurers. Finally, the training rules (2nd edition) provided a constant siphon of cash in the name of self-improvement.
    Mongoose Press in their Conan RPG has(had?) a rule where characters blew through half of their wealth each week they were not adventuring while they lived it up. This was meant to maintain the theme of down on their luck-adventurers, but also reflects how many adventurers would likely spend their cash.
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