I realize that many of you do not play 3rd ed., and for the most part this would not apply to other editions, though if you have some recommendations, please let me know.
However, for those of you who do, what do you use from other publishers under the open license. Of particular interest are combined story/mechanics items. Adventures and such are really not what I am seeking, so much as classes, prestige classes, other mechanics.
IMC we currently allow a great deal out of the Legends and Lairs "Path of Sword, Magic, Faith & Shadow," volumes, with approval of the DM. Most enjoyable has been the Eldritch Staff mechanics and the Schools of Combat/Magic, etc., if you have not looked at it, I recommend it strongly.
Unearthed Arcana (though a WOTC volume) is generally not approved. Tome & Blood, Sword & Fist, etc., is approved on a case by case basis, with quite a bit begin rejected.
So, what if anything have you used, and how have you integrated it into Greyhawk's story lines?
For the most part, I'm a "core books only" kind of guy, but I have grabbed the PDF versions of the first couple of Books of Eldritch Magic from Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press. However, seeing as I don't have an arcane spellcaster in the group these days, I haven't put those books to any use. _________________ Chris Talbot
D&D 3.0E Greyhawk DM
my players stick mostly to the core rule books, although I have offered to let them use most books by WoTC (as long as I own it) and dragon magazine (as long as I approve it)... however the only thing not from the players handbook so far from my Salinmoor game is that the human rogue opted to take some levels of the varient "Urban Ranger" from the Unearthed Arcana.
As a DM I feel no such contraint, and happily use 3rd party material where and when I feel it is appropriate and if I think that the material in question is balanced. more monsters are always helpful, so monster books are high on my list of nonWotC d20 material that I use... I will also sometimes use ideas, spells, or PrC's from Mongooses Encyclopedia Arcane series when creating unique spell casting villians. etc.
- quintessential Paladin
- Encyclopaedia Arcane : Chaos Magic (Mostly tied to Tharizdun I use this book as a good reason as how Rary changed so much)
- Encyclopaedia Arcane: star Magic
- Encyclopaedia Arcane: Necromancy (some parts)
- Quintessential Monk (some parts)
- Quintessential Elf (some parts)
- Quintessential Rogue (some parts)
From Green Ronin (my preferred D20 publisher, with Fantasy Flight close behind):
- Witch Handbook (for Rhenee)
- Book of fiends (except Hordes of Gehenna chapter, because I already use the standard cosmology, unfortunately)
- Races of Renown: pllot & Poison (if you tweak the outlook of Lolth/Spider-queen and her divine cohorts)
From Chain Mail Bikini Games:
- Beyond Monks - The Art of Fighting
From Necromancer Games;
- Tome of Horrors I & II
IIRC, GVDammerung suggested in a thursday chat the Blight Magic book from Mystic Eye Games for Incabulos's priests and wizards. _________________ Kneel before Rahu!
In our campaign, we our actually allowed to use quite a bit of material aside from the core (PHB, DMG, I don't count the monster manual, as i don't like to study the monsters). We are allowed the whole series of "Complete" books (IE. divine, warrior). Arcana unearthed, epic level, pretty much anything 3.5 by wizards, along with Dragon mags. For the dragon mags or any other supplement of that sort, it has to be voted on and approved by the group, which IMO is a good way to do things. You have to have the reference with you. Of course for the most part, getting things thru the group is easy stuff, but you can't get too crazy. It's a pretty good system, as it allows us to get broad with our characters but for the stuff that walks the line, you still have to get it approved. _________________ *Insert appropriate witty retort here*
We use to use the City State of the Invincible Overlord by I believe by City and Guilds at the time. It now appears to be done by Necromancer Games. We used it because back twenty years ago there was not a lot of cities in module format. It is great because it is generic enough use in also most any campaign with some modification. As well if you can modify it to fit various city sizes. It would work well in your Gran March/Keoland campaign.
There is a review here.
I tend to use mostly core stuff as well as ideas from Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I use campaign material from other companies, but I tend to avoid prestige classes and monsters as I believe there are already quite a few to work with.
Of the core books I enjoy are the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds. They add to the classic good verses evil conflict. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I have been trying to decide what standard I will use to allow new things in, and the simple answer boils down to this..."If you will write a good enough story, I will let just about anything in if it is not unbalanced." No one joins a prestige class without finding someone to train them... assasins and shadow dancers prepare for a long quest.
Ivor, Which City would you use CSIOverlord for, Hookhill? I am starting a new campaign as some of my ongoing players were deployed.
I think that CSIO would be too large for Hookhill but you could use parts of it. The following link would be good for constructing Hookhill along with parts of the CSIO.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1678&
In my GREYHAWK campaigns, I only allow the Core 3 3.5 books, and the Paragon Levels from Unearthed Arcana (3.5). I am concerned with most of the other 3.5 books as to the level of "power creep." in them. The core 3 books are fairly balanced as is, so I stick to them. It is alos a hassle to go through so many books and pick and choose on what to use and what not to. Players get confused, so I just limit them - balance has remained tight that way.
However, I do definately use Necromancer Games TOME OF HORRORS I, and II. Both a great monster books.
............................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
Last edited by Omote on Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
IMO, Green Ronin produces the best 3rd party d20 material. A goodly amount of it can be used "off the rack."
Mongoose Publishing also has some very good stuff but it can be alternatingly "overpowered" or "underpowered." It usually needs a close look.
Malhavoc PrC's follow Monte Cook's PrC dictums for building PrCs in large measure, probably because Monte Cook runs Malhavoc. I find almost all Malhavoc PrCs grossly "underpowered," however. You wonder why a thinking player would take one, unless they just think the concept is "neat" as divorced from the mechanics.
Personally, I usually "adjust" any PrC or anything else I let in my game, whether from Wotc or from a 3rd party publisher. D&D 3rd and 3.5 is so diverse in its creative impulses and no two products, even from the same publisher, will necessarily follow a discernable standard. This is both one of the strengths and weaknesses of the 3rd Edition.
If I may warm to this topic. I initially resisted 3rd Edition as I had so much 2nd and 1st and OD&D material that I was happy with. I eventually adopted 3rd Edition because of all of the ideas that were circulating from 3rd party publishers. I was not swayed by the mechanics; they are okay but nothing to write home about, IMO. I probably would not have adopted 3rd Edition if only Wotc were producing products for it. It is the wealth of alternate views that 3rd party publishers put out that I really like from 3rd Edition.
By way of example - Treants from Goodman Games. Treants play no significant role in OD&D, 1st or 2nd Edition D&D. They are just Tolkien by way of Gygax changing the name to avoid copyright issues and another monster. In the Goodman Games product, treants are brought to amazing life. This product bristles with ideas for making Treants as vital and memorable a part of any campaign as they were in LotR. I think this product is the finest 3rd Edition product produced, although there are a couple close competitors.
To carry the example a step father, Green Ronin produces a product called Bastards and Bloodlines, wherein odd PC races are discussed. It is an excellent product with a lot of unique ideas. One of these is the half-Treant. Another is the half-Dryad. Combined with Goodman Games Treants, you now have even more options for highlighting Treants in your game.
For me Fanghorn and Treebeard etc. were highlights of LotR and certainly the movies. These products let me bring something of that to my game without the need to work from scratch. This is only possible in 3rd Edition because 3rd party publishers were willing to take a risk on obscure topics. Wotc has produced a wealth of material in all editions but no treants. It is the ability of 3rd party publishers to approach unique ideas that I think makes 3rd edition worth considering.
By now, no doubt, someone is thinking "flack" or "edition wars." Bunk. I play what I have heard called 123E. I combine elements from all three games. It is not hard to do but does take some additional work. The editions are not mutually exclusive unless you are a "purist" for the sake of being a "purist."
Warming again and by way of example.
The thief is to me defined by the 1st Edition thiefly skills table. I will not give it up.
To me elves are the elves of OD&D. They are fighter/magic users. I will not give them up.
Clerics turn on the turning table. I will not give it up.
The magic system for all editions of the game reached perfection, IMO, with the 2nd Edition "encyclopedias" and "compendiums" of items and spells. I will not give them up.
I like the 3rd edition change to AC and simplified saving throws. These I will use.
I mix elements from each edition, the above being examples. Converting between editions is easy once you get the hang of it. AC is just flip-flopped. Feats are just special abilities that a DM might choose to allow in earlier editions. Attacks of Opportunity are just additional attacks a DM might allow in earlier editions. Anything that can't be quickly converted can be easily ignored.
If there are camps of people who will swear by one edition or another, I think I fall in none of those camps but a new camp - 123E! "We use it all!"
Anyway, long winded way of saying that discussing 3rd Ed or any Ed is not disparaging of any other Ed unless you want it to be, are spoiling for an argument or just haven't thought through the possibility of taking the best of what you like from each edition.
Editionless? I _AM_ editionless. I am every edition.
I agree, GVD, I am less than fond of edition wars, and am too bored by edition ranters to read their raves.
I play 3rd, because I only have 3rd edition books. All my old stuff (going back to '78) was destroyed in the flood of 1994. For a time I played Masqerade (because those books survived on the top shelf) and then stopped playing for a couple of years. Now I play 3rd, and am about to buy 3.5. I do like many of the mechanics, and it certainly simplifies the system for new players.
Tome of Horrors... I may try this. My players are just getting their first dose of Fiend Folio. To this point they have been dazzled by Goblins (with wide and varied Class enhancments).
I used Necromancer's Cruciable of Frey as the 1st adventure for my characters. I placed it in Farvale, Gran March. By happenstance I changed Freya to Merrika. Who knew that Cult of the Reptile God (which is the 2nd adventure for my crew) introduced Orlane, Farvale and Merrika. I am very happy with the results.
Green Ronin has been excellent for their monster works, and I am going to look for the Treants. I like the outdoor adventures rather than the dungeon. I am a big fan of the Demon and Devil supplements. I have used them extensively.
I have a couple of products from Mongoose, Crusades of Valor being my favorite. However I found their Power Classes to be terrible. I must say that as a player, I have suffered extensively due to their Goblin and Kobold Guide.
For those who have responded, specific product titles would be useful.
We also have greatly enjoyed the alternate Paladins, and the Paragons. I really like the Path of Faith, which should integrate well with alternate Paladins. It is by Legends and Lairs.
Fantasy flight the maker of all the ledgens and Lair books is having a big sale on thier web site. $5 for any L&L book soft or hard cover. it's going to the 17th. I just did a lot of holiday shopping figured that I would pass along the tip, since several posters on this thread are also fans of thier books.
Personally, I found Arcana Unearthed (Monte Cook) to be way out of balance on spells, but many ideas were great. Examples are Ritual Feats and Truenames (though I like the treatment on Truenames better un Dragon), and the division of spells into common/exotique/unique.
But I digress. I agree on Tome of Horrors 1 being an excellent resource (still don't have II yet). We really use most 3E/3.5 books by Wizards, but little by other publishers. I expect that to change very soon, though. :-)
Great topic! _________________ ~basiliv
I didn't design the world,
I merely facilitated its creation
Not having the cash to afford more than the WotC releases, the only book with rules I've gotten from outside has been the Player's Guide to Arcanis. If more of my online players had it, I'd likely use it for them. If I can ever get my tabletop game going again, I'll almost certainly use it, particularly since one of the players has material in it.
Not having the cash to afford more than the WotC releases, the only book with rules I've gotten from outside has been the Player's Guide to Arcanis. If more of my online players had it, I'd likely use it for them. If I can ever get my tabletop game going again, I'll almost certainly use it, particularly since one of the players has material in it.
This is an amazingly good, and dense, product, chock full of very inventive ideas that are brought off well. Samwise, please express my compliments to your player who contributed to the Player's Guide to Arcanis.
Having waited a sufficient time for the company to reply, I thought I would follow up on the Legends and Lairs Sale noted by Thanel.
As you will note above, Fantasy Flight Games was having a sale. I have been a big fan of their products, to the point of sounding like a sales rep.
However, for this recent sale, I went to the website and attempted to make a purchase. No luck, the website was not responding properly. No problem, I had several days in which to make this happen.
I went back again the last day of the sale, placed a large order (a dozen items or so). Or at least I attempted to. Again the site would not respond.
After several hours of waiting for the purchase to clear through, I attempted to purchase again. Wonder of wonders, the sale was over.
I attempted to contact the company through their "contact us," window. That too was not working. Subsequently I notified the company by phone, fax, and email of the problems, requesting that they put the order through.
No response.
I have followed up with repeated emails.
No response.
Did anyone else try and purchase during this sale? I can say that Fantasy Flights customer service is poor at best.
I am sorry to know you had a similar problem with Fantasy Flight's customer service when I bought Grimm RPG, I asked about a future product in their forums. After 1 month of witing, I gave up :-( _________________ Kneel before Rahu!
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