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    Canonfire :: View topic - Magical Spell Scrolls: In What Language are they Written?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Magical Spell Scrolls: In What Language are they Written?
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:54 pm  
    Magical Spell Scrolls: In What Language are they Written?

    I have wondered...do priests who fashion spell scrolls pen them in their racial language, or the written language of magic (runes)?

    I would venture to guess that b/c mages need to cast Read Magic on scrolls with spells, this implies that these scrolls are penned in the 'language of magic' (runes), and NOT in a racial language (Elvish, etc).

    But what about priests and clerics????

    Thus, does an elven priest scribe a magical (spell) scroll in Elvish just as a dwarven priest would do so in Dwarvish...or is it all written in the language of runes and magic, and NOT their native tongue?

    I would imagine that protective scrolls, however, MUST be written in some non-magical language given that ANY class can use them, given that the person is actually literate.

    If you can cite a specific book or page that answers this, please let me know. I am perusing my DMG and it doesn't seem to say specifically one way or the other...unless I am blind (a possibility)...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:13 pm  

    I don't remember the 2nd edition rules well, but there is a spell called Read Magic, isn't there? That indicates that not just anyone can read a magic scroll. Apparently, scrolls of protection are somehow written in a manner that allows anyone to read them, but that is not the case with arcane and divine scrolls.

    I suggest that the languages of arcane magic and divine magic are as different as the magic itself. Separate magical languages exist for each type of magic.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:14 pm  

    I don't remember the 2nd edition rules well, but there is a spell called Read Magic, isn't there? That indicates that not just anyone can read a magic scroll. Apparently, scrolls of protection are somehow written in a manner that allows anyone to read them, but that is not the case with arcane and divine scrolls.

    I suggest that the languages of arcane magic and divine magic are as different as the magic itself. Separate magical languages exist for each type of magic.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:18 pm  

    Yes, I would assume that mage spells need a Read Magic spell (see my earlier statement), but wondering about priest spell scrolls...

    -L
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    Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:17 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:19 pm  

    BW, great to see you back patrolling the boards again.

    So...what do you interpret for clerical spell scrolls?

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:31 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:54 pm  

    Magic-user spells are written in the language of magic, and that language isn't exactly a fixed language(i.e. it varies), otherwise a mage would learn the language of magic and then not ever need a read magic spell to read and understand a magic scroll at all.

    Cleric spells are less defined as to what language they are written in, but it must be a divinely common language, as any cleric or divine spellcaster, literate or not, can pick up a cleric scroll and read it, while nobody else can. Even a mage using read magic and/or tongues cannot understand a cleric scroll. Basically, a character must be one of the "chosen" in order to read a cleric scroll. It may look like it is written in familiar language, but if one who is not "chosen" tries to read it, it all suddenly becomes gibberish to them.

    Which brings up a nice point. A DM could have an ancient hermit, young girl, etc. especially blessed by a deity (because they are just talkin' the talk, but walkin' the walk and then some Wink), and who is not a cleric/priest/whatever at all, be able to read such holy writings (and maybe even be able to use them at a level far beyond that of a humble aspirant). Fun stuff. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:16 am  

    Not sure if I agree with you on this account, Ceb, that an illiterate character can use a scroll, including one of the 'protection' varieties. That doesn't make sense to me. It stands to reason for me that a character must be able to read to use any type of written document, and if those words are written in a magical language, the appropriate proficiency (Spellcraft, for instance) OR a spell (Read Magic) may be needed.

    Yeah, the whole idea about priestly spell scrolls is indeed a 'conundrum' to me, too, BW. I keep waffling back and forth between 'the scroll is written in the priest's racial language' and 'it is written in the language of runes and magic.'

    As for your other questions (hurrah, Lanthorn gets to answer for once!), I guess it depends on your perspective. Here is what I would offer:

    Any priest can use a spell scribed from his/her Power's granted Spheres without any hindrance. For instance, a priest of Rao can use a Plane Shift spell penned by a priest of Trithereon since both have Major access to that Sphere.

    However, it gets tricky when the spell is penned by a priest of an opposing alignment. In the above case, if the Plane Shift was scribed by a priest of Nerull or Incabulos, you will have to determine for yourself if you think it is the direct power of the God in question that is used, OR if it is the power contained within the scroll itself during its creation that is used (this is my personal opinion). In the case of the former, perhaps the spell fails, or the reading priest is catapulted into one of the Hells or another plane of Evil...in the case of the latter, maybe it works. This may be one of those DM calls since the guides don't say. In any case, it is likely a wise choice that priests of opposing alignments/faiths would instead destroy such magical scrolls rather than use them...unless they are truly desperate.

    You could determine the scroll utterly fails, or is perverted somehow, or that the priest suffers an XP loss by using such an item. If the spell is truly powerful and invoked by a priest of an opposing alignment/faith, maybe this constitutes a sin, and thus, the loss of spells until proper Atonement is made.

    Just some suggestions, but I like your questions, as they are very relevant.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:31 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Not sure if I agree with you on this account, Ceb, that an illiterate character can use a scroll, including one of the 'protection' varieties. That doesn't make sense to me. It stands to reason for me that a character must be able to read to use any type of written document, and if those words are written in a magical language, the appropriate proficiency (Spellcraft, for instance) OR a spell (Read Magic) may be needed.

    Of course a read magic spell is needed, if the scroll is a magic-user scroll. Clerics however do not need anything to read their scrolls, as that info is divinely imparted to them. Also, read magic allows for magical writing to be read, but it takes a Spellcraft check to understand the writing (but only if it is a magic- user spell) such that the caster can then scribe it into a spellbook. Otherwise a scroll imparts the knowledge of its use for that time only to the user once it has been read (requiring a read magic for magic-user scrolls, but not any others). Protection scrolls can be read by anybody, even the illiterate. They are magical in that very specific way. But they can't read. Well, a person can't fly either, but wings of flying allow them to do just that. Protection spells impart understanding to the reader. Cursed scrolls also affect the illiterate.

    I think you are very much getting hung up on literal reading of the rules in this case, particularly the word "read". Much of this language comes straight from 1E, where there were no language proficiencies or anything relating to that. Everyone could read (i.e. use) these scrolls specifically because they were magical. An illiterate savage mage can use a magic-user scroll, even if he can't write in any language other than the magical language (so long as they use a read magic spell). Why? Because it is magic. An illiterate cleric can read a cleric scroll, even though they cannot read or write the language they speak, because their deity empowers them to be able to do so. Why? Because it is faith magic. A protection scroll can be use by anyone, even the illiterate, who somehow can understand it (and the same with the literate who realize that they can understand said scroll, even though it is not written in any language that they even know); even the mage doesn't need a read magic spell to read it. Why? Because it is magic. An illiterate character looks at a scroll covered in strange symbols, which suddenly begin to swim on the page, moving about until, quite suddenly, their meaning is perfectly clear, and the character knows what the scroll can be used for. How does that happen? Magic. Wink

    But now I just went and looked at the 2E rules, because this all sounds way too jumbled up to be due to a complete lack of understanding. And so I see what the problem is- incomplete rules. The 2E rules could be a heck of a lot more clear, let alone complete. For instance, the read magic spell doesn't say that it can be cast on other people, so exactly how could any class ever use use a protection spell if they can't cast a read magic spell to begin with? Kinda stupid, huh? Wink

    But, my initial responses to this line of questioning go more to how we handled things in 1E and carried them over into 2E. For 2E, I think you have a few options, and here are three to consider:

    1. Go with the 1E way of doing things, that being most scrolls can simply be "read" (i.e. understood) by those they are intended for (excepting magi-user spells)- even the illiterate. Why? Because it is magic.

    2. Allow the read magic spell to be cast on a target, that being either the caster or somebody else, which then allows them to read a magical scroll and know it. Then you follow the usual rules which state that, once a scroll has been read using read magic, that character can then use the scroll whenever they want to without needing to use read magic again (the only exception being clerics/druids, who shouldn't need read magic to understand their own holy writings, as requiring that would be idiotic). And, even the illiterate can benefit form the read magic spell to read a scroll. Why? Because it is magic. Wink

    3. Allow the read magic spell to be cast on a target, that being either the caster or somebody else, which then allows them to read a magical scroll and know it. Then you follow the usual rules which state that, once a scroll has been read using read magic, that character can then use the scroll whenever they want to without needing to use read magic again (the only exception being clerics/druids, who shouldn't need read magic to understand their own holy writings, as requiring that would be idiotic). And, illiterate characters cannot use scrolls at all, though, as you state, this sort of poops all over primitive spellcasters and so I wouldn't recommend it.

    I bet there is a "Sage Advice" on this, somewhere. That would be a good project for somebody- compiling a "Sage Advice Index". Actually, such a thing already exists! I think I just found Lanthorn's Holy Grail! Laughing Deja vu. Maybe I already posted this link somewhere. Anyways, check it out:

    http://www.purpleworm.org/content/index.php/research/dragons-sage-advice.html

    That webpage covers Sage Advice from Dragon #31-#250. Not bad! Cool

    So, here we go:

    "Q: In the AD&D PLAYERS HANDBOOK, under the Read Magic spell, it says that scrolls must have the spell cast upon them before they can be read by the Magic-User. What does a magic-user do if he doesn't have a Read Magic? What about the poor illusionist who has no Read Magic spell at all, except perhaps as a seventh-level spell? Furthermore, what do clerics do about scrolls? Do they have any? "

    "A: In the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, it says that all magic-users know the spell Read Magic. They would be worthless to their master (from whom they learned the profession) without it. Illusionists don't need a Read Magic. as all of their spells are written in the same secret language. This also applies to clerics. even though their spells are god-given, so yes, clerics can have scrolls"

    "Q: Can specialist wizards use scroll spells from opposition schools? Can clerics use scroll spells from outside their spheres?"

    "A: A character who can use spells can use a scroll if it matches his class, so priests can use scroll spells from outside their spheres and wizards can use scroll spells from outside their schools."

    "Q: The rules on scrolls in the DMG (page 145) say that a read magic spell must be used to discover a scroll's contents. According to this rule, even a map is unintelligible until a comprehend languages spell is used to decipher it. Since priests have neither read magic nor comprehend languages in their spell lists, how do priests discover what's on a scroll?"

    "A: You seem to have found a genuine "hole" in the rules. The DM can handle it in several ways: 1. Assume that the read magic and comprehend languages spells can be bestowed upon the item itself. The caster touches the writing, and any single creature who can read (in the case of maps) or cast the type of spell written on the scroll can decipher the writing. Alternately, the caster can copy the map or simply explain the spell to another caster, who can then read the writing himself. 2. Assume that a tongues spell can be used by priests to decipher scrolls, one scroll per spell. 3. Introduce clerical versions of read magic and comprehend languages spells into your campaign. I recommend that you make them both first-level spells in the All sphere. 4. Assume that all priests have a limited ability to decipher priestly scrolls on their own. A priest who does nothing else during a day might have a chance to petition his deity for help in deciphering one or more scrolls, provided he can read and write."

    "Q: Do player characters need to have the read/write proficiency to use magical books, tomes, manuals, and librams? Do player characters need the read/write proficiency to use scrolls and spell books?"

    "A: A character must be able to read to use any written magical item, including books and scrolls. Technically, wizards and bards are not required to have the read/write proficiency, though many campaigns do require it as a house rule. Spell books are written in a sort of personal magical cipher, and illiterate characters can make up their own if they know how to cast spells. Note that the read magic always gives the caster the ability to read a scroll, though the character might be categorically denied the use of the spell (no wizard can cast a priest spell from a scroll and vice versa). Likewise, thieves are not technically required to have the read/write proficiency to use their read languages skill (the skill itself is sufficient to unravel the mysteries of a written page if the character's die roll succeeds) or to use scrolls at high level."

    "Q: Can specialists use scroll spells from their opposing schools? The text on page 145 of the DMG seems to say that they can. Also, just how far does the prohibition against specialist wizards using magical items from their opposing schools go? Can an illusionist use a potion of healing, which is pretty clearly a necromantic item?"

    "A: Any wizard character can read any wizard spell from a scroll (although there might be a chance for failure if the character reading the scroll isn't of sufficient level to cast the spell). I recommend that you allow specialist wizards to use freely any items that can be used by all character classes, even when they duplicate effects from their opposition schools. This includes the majority of potions, and most rings and miscellaneous magical items. Any item, however, that can be used only by wizards, or only by wizards and priests, is off limits to a specialist if it duplicates an effect from the character's opposition schools. Any character, for example, can use a potion of healing, even an illusionist. An illusionist also can use a wand of magic missiles, but the character must make attack rolls when firing the missiles, just as a non wizard does."

    "Q: Do spell level limits for intelligence and Wisdom apply to spells cast from scrolls? For example, can a priest with a Wisdom score of 15 cast a 7th-level priest spell from a scroll? Could a wizard with a 15 Intelligence cast a 9th-level wizard spell from a scroll?"

    "A: A scroll is essentially a precast spell waiting for someone to come along and trigger it. A character who can read a spell scroll can use the spells on it without regard to any other restrictions. Both player characters (PCs) in the example could use the spells on the scrolls. Of course, the priest cannot read the wizard scroll and vice versa."


    That website ought to keep you busy for a while! Laughing

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Any priest can use a spell scribed from his/her Power's granted Spheres without any hindrance. For instance, a priest of Rao can use a Plane Shift spell penned by a priest of Trithereon since both have Major access to that Sphere.

    Not sure where that is from. So far as I recall, a cleric/priest can use any clerical spell, from any sphere, so long as it doesn't violate their alignment/is not a druid spell. EDIT: I am correct. See the above Q & A quotes for confirmation.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    However, it gets tricky when the spell is penned by a priest of an opposing alignment. In the above case, if the Plane Shift was scribed by a priest of Nerull or Incabulos, you will have to determine for yourself if you think it is the direct power of the God in question that is used, OR if it is the power contained within the scroll itself during its creation that is used (this is my personal opinion). In the case of the former, perhaps the spell fails, or the reading priest is catapulted into one of the Hells or another plane of Evil...in the case of the latter, maybe it works. This may be one of those DM calls since the guides don't say. In any case, it is likely a wise choice that priests of opposing alignments/faiths would instead destroy such magical scrolls rather than use them...unless they are truly desperate.


    The guides don't say anything in this regard because items with imbued powers do not work that way. They are, in effect, power storage devices, and can be used however one wants, by whomever, even if it is counter to the purpose of the deity who empowered a servant to create the items in the first place. Say a bunch of clerics of Pelor create a case of healing potions...which subsequently get stolen and later winds up in the hands of evil forces. Too bad, the potions work just fine for them. It is just stored power. Now, if, as a part of their manufacture a cleric of Pelor also puts in a curse/other damaging effect vs. evil, well, then you get an adverse effect, but that has to be put into the potion (which adds to the creation cost, so it usually won't be done). There is no freebie effect. There is no free butt wiping from the deity just because their servants screwed up or allowed themselves to be taken advantage of. If some negative effect isn't also put in there, then there will be none. Of course putting in a negative effect, just in case enemies get hold of something, sounds very much like something evil clerics enchanting things might do. They might even get hold of an allied arcane caster to work in some non-detection effect on only the bad part so that it won't show up under the scrutiny of detect magic/identify spells. Evil Grin

    A potion or scroll is just like a +3 mace empowered by a cleric. Whoever the deity was, it is still a +3 mace, potion, or scroll, and its power can be used by anyone. Not sure how one can figure that a scroll, potion, or any other item that isn't very specifically crafted to screw over enemies in some way should they try to use it, would be any different than a +3 mace. There actually are rules that govern this sort of thing, and they involve building effects in. Easier to do as a DM than as a player to be sure, as the added cost/resources can be prohibitive for a player character to add such negative effects all of time (which is why you don't see it very often among player character created things). The Q & A quotes touch on this just a tiny bit, but there may be other stuff pertinent to this in Sage Advice (I only did a find for "scroll" on the webpage).
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:23 pm  

    Cebrion,

    You just killed Lanthorn's posting ability. Now he will be lost in the sage advice black-hole.

    It seems Lanthorn had some thing's worked out on his own. So illiterate characters cannot use scrolls or items that need to be read unless they have scribed it themselves as they would be familiar with its meaning. However, use of the read magic spell will allow anyone who casts it to understand the writing. Though wizards cannot cast from a divine scroll and priests and druids cannot cast from an arcane scroll. Protection scrolls are an exception to the rule.

    Happy

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:34 am  

    Will...try...not...to...become...lost...in...sage...advice...vortex... Laughing

    Yeah, I've got a system that works for me, but always like to bounce things off the other minds of Canonfire!

    Thanks for everyone's contributions, and for the very informative response from Cebrion.

    until next time,

    Lanthorn
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    Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:42 pm  

    I actually do two things. First, I often have magic scrolls penning in another language. Often it is elven, or suel, or something like that. Sometimes it's something alltogether different. Of course a Read Magic is necessary, but I also make them use other magic as well, unless they know the language. Since I handle scrolls a bit differently IMC, it really isn't an issue as nearly all scroll investigation happens during "down time" anyway.

    Also, I DO make a point of telling them when they find magic scrolls of evil priests that they are basically prayers to Iuz or some such. They usually destroy them.

    In fact, this is how I get around a lot of magic they find. I just have it all be engraved with evil stuff or be "blessed" by evil priests or something. They don't want to use it then. However, I give them the EXP for the items based on the 1st ed gold piece sale value. This gives them a HUGE incentive to destroy all this "evil" stuff. They get more exp, and I keep magic levels down. Since we play online through a bulletin board, it also helps to move them up faster, which is good since the game takes so long anway.
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