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    Canonfire :: View topic - Slavs of Greyhawk?
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    Slavs of Greyhawk?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:16 pm  
    Slavs of Greyhawk?

    Hi! My new playeress, sister-in-law, wants to play heavily Slavic inspisred wizard(-ress?) and so we come up to put her in nation that looks like the Slavs in setting. Problem is I don't know what would it be. So here is the question - what people and kingdoms are most "slavic" in Greyhawk setting?

    Last edited by wyrdhamster on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:28 pm  

    Well that depends on your definition of Slavic Backgrounds... we will assume Ukrainian/ Czech/ Transylvania Region?
    The Rhenee are often depicted as Gypsy-esk race of the Flanaess. and may be the "flavor" your looking for. Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:54 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Well that depends on your definition of Slavic Backgrounds... we will assume Ukrainian/ Czech/ Transylvania Region?


    You know they are 3 different Slavic regions-"families", yeah? Myself I'm Pole and with Czech and Slovakia we are Western Slaves. Ukraine, European Russia and in between are the Center Slavs. Bulgaria and Romania ( which part of is Transylvania) is Eastern Slaves. Just to let you know there are three "flavors" of being Slavic. Smile But for this location only something generally "slavish" would be enough - with Center Slaves as preferable, as this character is very based on Russian folklore.

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    The Rhenee are often depicted as Gypsy-esk race of the Flanaess. and may be the "flavor" your looking for. Wink


    Gypsys are exactly opposite to what I thing about this "Slavic-like" humans. Was thinking more on Bulkanes or Flaness people. Maybe Iuz Empire? I read on Grayhawk Wiki there is there the Baba Jaga's Hut and Iuz himself is decedent to her. Evil Grin
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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:18 am  

    wyrdhamster wrote:
    I read on Grayhawk Wiki there is there the Baba Jaga's Hut and Iuz himself is decedent to her.


    It's was generally accepted by fans that "Natasha the Dark" an adopted human daughter of Baba Yaga who appeared in "The Dancing Hut" (Dragon #83, 1984) was Iggwilv, since Natasha was one of her famous aliases. Fourth Edition has made it official in "Demonomicon".

    As far as Iuz goes, I'd be more worried about his father's side of the family, if the speculation in Dragon #360 was correct (abandoned in 4E).

    Graz'zt, son of the Obyrith queen Pale Night and an unknown father.

    "A few ancient and ageless scholars believe that Pale Night was not, in fact, the aggressor in this matter, but that one of the Old Gods themselves, a cosmic entity of a thousand names and crawling chaos, visited Pale Night from his own court at the center of the universe, leaving her impregnated in an attempt to spawn a race of demons who would fulfill unknowable roles in his own dire plans for reality."

    Iuz, grandson of Nyarlathotep. Evil Grin
    GreySage

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:19 am  

    The Tiger Nomads, the Wolf Nomads and the Rovers of the Barrens are often considered to be as much Cossack as they are Mongolian Horde.

    With these groups, however, you get more of a Witch/Shaman "feel" for their magic, as opposed to a more educated/classically trained Wizard.

    The Baklunish nations are thought of as more of an Arabian setting and feel, even using Arabian titles for their rulers.

    The Frost, Snow and Ice Barbarians are more Norse, then anything else. But the Barony of Ratik, and perhaps Bissel, could have a Slavic flavor. Question

    If your PC hails from Iuzian lands, however, she will be of evil alignment. Or very old, as "good" people were driven from those lands "long ago."

    Blackmoor might be a possibility though. Shocked

    Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but if you hang around long enough, someone will come up with the perfect fit for you though, so don't go anywhere! Laughing

    Oh, and by the way . . . Welcome to Canonfire! Perhaps you might want to "stop by" the "Welcome to Canonfire!" forum and introduce yourself to everyone. We're always looking for new people and ideas, thoughts and comments and are glad that you've chosen to join us in our Greyhawk discussions. Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:43 am  

    Not everyone agrees on what real-world ethnicities the various races and nations of the Flanaess represent, nor should they as the races and nations of the Flanaess were designed to be a conglomeration of real-world and fantasy societies. Thus, each DM is largley free to assign whatever culture s/he likes to any nation or race.

    For example, the Flan in 576 are centered mostly in Geoff, Perrenland, the Rovers of the Barrens, the Yeomanry, and Tenh. Many DMs see these natives as being very similar to the American Indians of old while others see them more akin to the ancient Celts of Scottland. I like to combine the two cultural traits so that the Rovers are American Indians that ride not only horses, but chariots into combat. Then, looking to Perrenland, this portion of the Flan share many similarities to the Swiss, with their exports of cheese and mercenaries. Tenh, the Yeomanry, and Geoff have their own individual uniqueness as well.

    I think that any of the Flan-majority nations would be easy for you to assign a Slavic cultural background to. Other good choices would be The Pale, The Hold of Stonefist, The Wild Coast, Blackmoor or Ratik (as mentioned by Mystic-Scholar), Idee, or even Dullstrand.

    Iuz is the son of Iggwilv who is Natasha the Dark, adopted daughter of Baba Yaga (of the Dancing Hut), who is a very powerful witch of Russian folklore. That doesn't mean the people of the land of Iuz are of the same descent, but Iuz could have forced his mother's culture onto the populace.

    SirXaris
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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:51 am  

    In using real world analogues for GH cultural groups, some view the Flan as being more culturally Celtic and/or American Indian, others see them as more divergent. I'm one of the latter, and in my campaign, generally, slavic cultures (in all their variety) apply to the Flan of the north, ranging from Blackmoor across to Stonefist. The Rovers are their own thing, though still Slavic influenced (see Mystic-Scholar's "cossack" comment). For canon clues to this line of thinking all I can point to is the appearance of a rusalka named Maryoshka in Wolfgang Baur's "Raiders of the BLack Ice." Also, note that above I said "generally," because when it came time to place Barovia somewhere in my GH campaign, I put it in Keoland, in the area west of the Javan River, near Cryllor. The background story being that the Tergs, the Flan tribe original to the region, before the coming of the Suel and Oeridians, were an isolated group, culturally different from the Flan tribes surrounding them.
    GreySage

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:08 am  

    Firstly, Wyrdhamster, let me welcome you to Canonfire! Please introduce yourself, unless you've done so already, in the "Introduce Yourself" thread under the Welcome to Greyhawk forum.

    wyrdhamster wrote:
    You know they are 3 different Slavic regions-"families", yeah? Myself I'm Pole...


    ME TOO! Happy Half, actually. The other half is German-Swiss.

    To answer your query, we had a thread about a year ago that asked a similar question. I'll have to look it up, although I think it became a 'charged' thread that, alas, called attention to Administration and was either locked, or nearly so... Confused I hate it when a good thread gets derailed... Mad

    Anyhow, I had the honor of traveling to Bulgaria a number of years ago, and so I know that 'gypsies' are NOT looked upon favorably in Europe. Tis true that perhaps Rhennee could be considered Slavic, depending on your interpretation. I'd lean towards Oeridian personally.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:18 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...To answer your query, we had a thread about a year ago that asked a similar question. I'll have to look it up, although I think it became a 'charged' thread that, alas, called attention to Administration and was either locked, or nearly so... Confused I hate it when that happens!


    -I was looking for the same thing:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4291&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

    Stonefist has a bad-guy cossack feel to it, and the Wolf Nomads seem to be a cross of cossack and Turkic-Mongol (chalk it up to Rose Estes).

    I see the Rovers as more like the northern Plains Indians while they were still converting to the horse.

    I don't see Bissel as being "culturally" Slavic, but they are on the Bakluni border, making them a Balkan analogue (or Iberian).

    Yeah, and Iuz would work if you tilt to CE.

    FWIW.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:52 pm  

    I prefer to think of lands with a strong Suel influence as being Slavic. There are quite a few choices in that regard- the Sheldomar, the Urnst states, Ratik, and the Thilronians lands in particular.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:20 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I prefer to think of lands with a strong Suel influence as being Slavic. There are quite a few choices in that regard- the Sheldomar, the Urnst states, Ratik, and the Thilronians lands in particular.


    Really? Just a feeling or based on something else?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:46 pm  

    My own view. Okay, maybe I am a bit biased, being 1/4 Czech. Happy


    That really isn't the reason though.

    A people should have an identity. As we note, the Suel don't really have one identity, but three. One is the Scarlet Brotherhood cult, and it is fine that they are very different because they grew out of a cult into what they are. They were sort of outcasts from their own society to begin with. This group doesn't have a parallel with any real world Slavs, but the other groups do.

    Then we have the midlands Suel, who I would roughly equate to the Poles/Czechs/Slovaks. They live in similar geographical areas, and these areas (both in GH and the real world) have a lot of diversity mixed up in their cultures due to the history of these lands.

    Then we have the northern Suel who I would roughly equate to the Russians/Ukrainians/Belarusians. I play such Suel as being somewhat similar to the others, but having slightly differing cultural views, and
    obviously being shaped by the harsh environment in which many of them live. I loathe the blatant Viking cut-n-paste. How I portray them is more like the Varangians (Eastern Slav version), but with a big dash of Byzantine Empire grandeur thrown in too.

    I actually prefer to think of the Ancient Suel Empire as being similar to Byzantine Empire, but one in which the Varangians are not the Emperor's elite guard, but the main people of the nation. I also like the Varangian crafts of that time period, by which I specifically mean the slightly eastern look to their arms and armor. It gives a different impression than Viking arms and armor, yet is still similar (though that is mainly due to the technology of the time). I have an article underway on the Thillronian Suel that goes into this a bit more (who knows when I'll finish it). Describing to players what their characters see goes a long way to forming an impression, so the visuals have always been important to me.

    So, I like the "look". That is the real reason. Once you have a "look", for me at least, the rest sort of just writes itself. I very much prefer not to copy/paste a culture though. You might take something on the surface and then run with it, but rather than give a dissertation on the history of the Slavic nations, just with the names changed to locations in Greyhawk, I would take an initial impression, and then define everything as I would want it to be for GH. You don't need to do research, or at least very, very little of it. Greyhawk is an alternate prime to be sure, but it isn't a Harry Turtledove novel. Wink
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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:21 am  

    Ok, so I will introduce myself a bit in Welcome topic, but here I answer what I think. Wink

    I'm also thought of Suloise, but from our historical point of view. I always connected them to our Germanic peoples, because of they appearance and lust for dominance. Also the Great Migrations of Goths and other tribes in this family have shaped ethnicity in Western and Center Europe - just like with Suels in Flanaess.

    From Europe history we know that Slavic people were based on they own Pre-Indo-European ethnicity, but adopted many traits of Germanic - like blond hair and many common traces in their religion. Hell, the Russian Kingdom was founded by Viking chief that stayed there!

    We also know that Oeridians were great warriors and made Great Kingdom of Aerdi - just like Eastern Slavic people made Byzantium Empire, that also was very militaristic.

    And then we have the official statement:

    Wikipedia on Suloise wrote:
    In Dragon #52 (August 1981) Leonard Lakofka gave information on the fictional languages of the Flaness to which Gary Gygax appended a brief description of the racial types of the setting, describing the Suloise as having "many" representatives who are so fair they are "nearly albino". Gygax stated that "The inner mixture of Oeridians with Suloise tends toward a typical European-mix looking population".


    If we look that way, we see that our "Slavic nations" are those of ex-Aerdi, with Suloise mix. Oh, look, Iuz Empire is mostly Oerid with some Suloise blood. If Iuz Empire is Siberian Russia, whole Great Kingdom of Aerdi territory could have Slavic influences. But more we look on South, names are more Germanic, so I would stick with the Iuz Empire nearby. What would be Good or Neutral alignment nation in this vicinity?

    As to other ethics groups of Flanaess:

    *Flans, for me, are Celts. They tattoo, are primitive, fight and "live with nature". They even look like exaggerated Celtic warrior.

    *Rhennee are gypsies. They aren't Slavic cause they weren't in Europe. Romania is great mix of gypsies and Slavic influenced - that doesn't mean all Slaves were gypsies.

    *Bulkans are the arabic people and influences so they can also represent Latino and Hispanic people.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:48 am  

    Wyrdhamster,

    Sounds like you're well-equipped to make Greyhawk into what you need it to be.

    One thing I'd be interested in: what do you feel makes a setting "Slavic"? Thoughts on getting that flavor could benefit us all.

    > so we come up to put her in nation that looks like the Slaves in setting.

    On a side note, the word you want is "Slavs". Slaves (with an 'e') are subjugated workers.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:56 am  

    ek wrote:
    One thing I'd be interested in: what do you feel makes a setting "Slavic"? Thoughts on getting that flavor could benefit us all.


    Mostly center Slavs folklore. Think of Russian Middle Ages and folk tales. Things like this:











    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:53 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    My own view. Okay, maybe I am a bit biased, being 1/4 Czech. Happy

    That really isn't the reason though.


    Thanks for the explanation, Ceb! I'm totally with you on the cut and paste thing, and what you said about "the look." The funny thing IMC was I like to provide pics of NPC's, usually things I've found on the internet. So with the inhabitants of Barovia being mainly Flan in descent, I'm describing guys who look like this and using a "slavic" (Really just my Rade Serbedzija imitation) accent when doing their speaking bits.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:05 am  

    Bissel to me definetly had a Balkan, particuarly Serbian flavor to it. The peasantry of Grand March could easily be related, perhaps somewhat of the nature of the Balts or Poles, though their rulers appear to be a combinationof the Knights Templar and the Tuetonic Knights. As for Stonefist, it definetly has a very Cossack-like feel to it. Most of the other states did not really seem to seem particularly slavic to me.
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:52 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Also, note that above I said "generally," because when it came time to place Barovia somewhere in my GH campaign, I put it in Keoland, in the area west of the Javan River, near Cryllor. The background story being that the Tergs, the Flan tribe original to the region, before the coming of the Suel and Oeridians, were an isolated group, culturally different from the Flan tribes surrounding them.


    I place Ravenloft/Barovia in the Sepia Uplands near to the Clatspurs. Convenient mountainous territory and it's near to the Flan/Slavic-themed Perrenland.

    SirXaris
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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:44 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    If your PC hails from Iuzian lands, however, she will be of evil alignment. Or very old, as "good" people were driven from those lands "long ago."


    I think that her family can be even from grate-grate-grandfather emigrants if needed. They would run from Iuz Empire to most Slavic-like kingdom on south.

    tarelton wrote:
    Bissel to me definetly had a Balkan, particuarly Serbian flavor to it. The peasantry of Grand March could easily be related, perhaps somewhat of the nature of the Balts or Poles, though their rulers appear to be a combinationof the Knights Templar and the Tuetonic Knights. As for Stonefist, it definetly has a very Cossack-like feel to it. Most of the other states did not really seem to seem particularly slavic to me.


    And were would you put from hard, Russian-like "witch"? Remembering that her family will be emigrants from Iuz Empire?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:25 pm  



    Add some cold weather clothing to that pic, plus some warrior fetishes and such (in addition to stylistic differences in everything), and you would be pretty close to what my Thillronian barbarians look like. My Thillronians are not completely barbaric look-wise or culturally, but they are definitely different enough that outsiders view them that way. My view stems from the fact that the Thillronians come from one the greatest empires ever known, rather then from a culture which is simply developmentally behind others. These are a very different kind of "barbarians". The Stonefisters are more what I equate to the archetypal fantasy barbarian.

    But I digress. This is just concerning the pure Thillroians Suel. It is the lands where there is a mainly Suel/Oeridian/Flan mixture that I would equate more with Slavs in general, due the the cultural mixing within the Slavic lands.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:25 pm  

    wyrdhamster wrote:
    And were would you put from hard, Russian-like "witch"? Remembering that her family will be emigrants from Iuz Empire?


    Why not one of the Bandit Kingdoms, especially one of the northern ones? Maybe the Fellands, Grosskopf, or Rookroost? Maybe growing up in the western Fellands or Rookroost, near the Fellreev Forest she was tutored by a witch or even a green hag who lived in the forest?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:04 pm  

    That is a pretty good idea. The Bandit Kingdoms could have any sort of people living there, it being a mostly lawless and wild place. Plenty of wild places where a witch could be from the vicinity of.
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    Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:13 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    That is a pretty good idea. The Bandit Kingdoms could have any sort of people living there, it being a mostly lawless and wild place. Plenty of wild places where a witch could be from the vicinity of.


    And close enough to Iuz Empire to be realistic with whole "Baba Yaga is near and will still our children". Evil Grin Will look more about it in my Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. But anticipating the question - where can I learn more about these lands?
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:31 am  

    May I recommend the Greyhawk wiki? Confused

    You'll find it in the left hand column. There, all canon information has been collected regarding a vast array of Greyhawk topics, thanks to two of our illustrious members; Robbastard and Rasgon. Cool

    At the bottom of each entry, you will find a lexicon of where all of the information found therein can be located.

    And, by all means, check out the LGG. Wink
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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:05 am  

    Hi wyrdhamster,

    In my games I give a strong Slavic theme to the Coltens, the original Flan inhabitants of the Hold of Stonefist / Stonehold and much of the surrounding area.

    I view the Suel Barbarians to be much like the Rus who invaded & settled early Russia and who subsequently absorbed much of the native Slav culture and peoples. In the same way I view the Suel Barbarians absorbing much of the Colten culture to help them understand and survive in the icy north. However the Suel are supposed to be quite pure-blooded so along the Thillonian Peninsula I decided that the integration of the peoples was mostly cultural. The Hold of Stonefist however I see as having more interbreeding.

    In my game I have also decided that Vatun was actually a Colten's deity whom the Suel Barbarians embraced as I couldn't see why the Suel would have had a god of Cold and Arctic Beasts in the area of the Sea of Dust. This embracing of Vatun is also much of the reason for them absorbing some of the Coltens / Slavic style culture.

    A lot of people view the Rovers of the Barrens with a more Native American vibe but there is no reason why you couldn't make them Slavic in theme as well if you wanted to and the Coltens and the Rovers as part of the same Flan ethnicity.

    Additionally the original inhabitants of Iuz's Domain could have had a Slavic vibe.

    These are just my thoughts, I hope you manage to settle on your own way to introduce a Slavic feel that works with your view of the world of Greyhawk!
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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:43 am  

    From reading more and more of LGH I came to conclusion that the Great Kingdom of Aerdy was more or less the equivalent of Holy Roman Empire from early Middle Ages. The Overking was as Real World Emperor and slow collapse of the state lead to separating of Furynod as Western Empire. Northern side of Great Kingdom was Byzantium-like "Eastern Empire" - even last of it's rulers was Ivid V, strangely Slavic-sound name, don't you think? Wink

    As stated before - I would rather set true Suel as more Germanic-like conquerors. They invaded previous Slavic-like (and not only) inhabitance - Oeridians - that were horse nomads of center Oerik:
    Greyhawk Wiki wrote:
    Oeridian. These people, the descendants of proud horse nomads from central Oerik, have olive or tan skin and any color of hair from honey-blonde to black. The Oeridians founded the mighty Great Kingdom and co-founded the kingdom of Keoland, so their influence on everything from language to culture in the Flanaess is considerable.


    And those natives Oeridians were populace of Iuz's Domain. Both cultures mixed and from Slavic-like roots of Oeridians and Suel empire tradition from times pre-Twin Cataclysms come to being Byzantine-like Great Kingdom.

    As the playeress wants to play half-elf wizard, so probably her family will be from Iuz’s Domain, moving on east with each generation from oppression of the Old One, ending in Fellreev Forest, on boarders of elven community.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:52 am  

    Wyrdhamster, along with the other resources on the Bandit Kingdoms that people have mentioned there is The Unofficial Living Bandit Kingdoms Summary, by Casey Brown, Britt Frey and Theo Judd. It's available through Amazon in both print and Kindle editions. As the title said it's mainly a summary of the events in the Living Greyhawk Bandit Kingdoms, Not sure when your campaign is taking place, so it might be less useful to you, although there was plenty of info in there that I thought was pretty good regardless of when you were running your campaign.

    Wolfling wrote:
    In my game I have also decided that Vatun was actually a Colten's deity whom the Suel Barbarians embraced as I couldn't see why the Suel would have had a god of Cold and Arctic Beasts in the area of the Sea of Dust.


    I assumed something similar, although I think of him as more of a nature spirit, kind of like the Earth Dragon, just over a wider area. Although it does amuse me to think there was an almost forgotten Suel god of the north wind or something like that who, when ancestors of the Barbarians migrated into Rhizia, went "YES! Finally, this is my chance!"
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:15 am  

    I think of Vatun as a Suel god of war who only took on the portfolio of winter and beasts when his worshipers came to the frozen north. His brother Dalt makes much more sense as a native Suel god than as an adopted Flan god, though Rob Kuntz had a much more elaborate and strange history for Dalt planned in his Castle Maure series.

    As far as Slavic lands in Greyhawk go, Greyhawk is a vague enough setting that you can interpret nearly every nation as Slavic if you really want to. The Flanaess is often seen as a backwards Europe, which suggests that the eastern portions should be analogous to Western Europe and the western portions should be analogous to Eastern Europe, but I agree with those who say that the entire northern Flanaess from Perrenland (although the inspiration there is more directly Swizerland) to Stonefist are Russia to varying degrees. Iggwilv is Baba Yaga's daughter and stand-in, and she is most associated with the nation she once ruled, Perrenland. A long time ago I did some work associating the eastern coast of the Dramidj Ocean with the lands to the north of the Black Sea - I was fascinated by the many different waves of settlers there (Kurgans, Greeks, Scythians, Goths, Khazars, etc.) and tried to give all those peoples analogies in Baklunish history.

    I've also read some arguments that the Great Kingdom was originally intended as an analogue of Czarist Russia. One piece of evidence: the throne of Aerdy is called the Malachite Throne, and the Malachite Room was a famous part of the Winter Palace in Saint Petersburg.

    I see the Kettites as basically an analog for European Muslims (Turkey and Kosovo, and also the best analog for the Tergs who menaced Ravenloft's Barovia), so Bissel and the Gran March parallel the Christian Balkan states. I know Gary Holian is on record saying that Keoland should have an "Eastern European flavor."

    The Baklunish in general stand in for Arabs, Persians, Mongols, and even to some extent Chinese and Japanese culture. All of Greyhawk's root cultures are broad and deliberately don't fit any Earth culture exactly. Gary Gygax said he based the Flan physically on Ethiopians, but obviously some aspects of their culture resembles Celts, Mesopotamians, American Indians, or whatever you like. The Suel are pale like Scandinavians but their original culture was more of a high-fantasy culture like Atlantis (and in that sense they may be influenced by legends of Thule, especially as Nazi occultists reinterpreted it), but their curly or kinky hair is a trait introduced to make them definitely a fantasy race rather than an exact real-world analog.

    But yeah, essentially anything in Greyhawk can be Slavic. If someone wants to play a witch based on Russian legend, though, I'd put her in Perrenland and have her taught by a former apprentice of Iggwilv.
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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:02 am  

    rasgon, thanks for the post.

    rasgon wrote:
    I know Gary Holian is on record saying that Keoland should have an "Eastern European flavor."


    To me Keoland screams with Holy Roman Empire, but it's probably my personal taste.

    rasgon wrote:
    But yeah, essentially anything in Greyhawk can be Slavic. If someone wants to play a witch based on Russian legend, though, I'd put her in Perrenland and have her taught by a former apprentice of Iggwilv.


    Will see on this... Cool
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    Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:19 am  

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/flanaess/human-races-of-flanaess-t431.html

    "
    I received this information in a letter from Gary Gygax. I am passing
    along the pertinent part of it here for those interested:

    Suel: Gallic and Mediterranean
    Baklunish: Arabian, with Persians, Indians, and Semitic folks included
    Flan: Hamitic folk such as the Nubians, Numidians, and Ethiopians
    Oeridian: Celt-Teutons
    Wolf & Tiger Nomads: Mongols, Tartars, Huns, etc.
    Rovers of the Barrens: Amerind-Cossack mix
    "
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    Last edited by Longetalos on Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:44 am  

    Longetalos - thanks for sharing that, I'm really interested to hear both you and Rasgon mention a Hamitic / Ethiopian themed appearance for the Flan, I'd never seen that mentioned before.

    On a side note Rasgon - this talk of Dalt has sent me on a whole new line of investigation and enquiry... I think a new topic is in order!
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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 am  

    The Lost Kingdoms of the Burneal Forest.
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    Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:42 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Longetalos - thanks for sharing that, I'm really interested to hear both you and Rasgon mention a Hamitic / Ethiopian themed appearance for the Flan, I'd never seen that mentioned before...


    -Yeah, Rasgon mentioned this a while ago:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=posting&mode=quote&p=26886

    rasgon wrote:
    None of the races, except the Olmans (which were a non-Gygaxian addition and kind of stick out like a sore thumb) have direct real-world analogs.

    The Flan are inspired by the Celts in part (because of their druidic and bardic tradition), but definitely inspired by the native Americans as well (though this is mostly limited to the Rovers of the Barrens). Gary Gygax has said their appearance was based on "Hamitic" Africans...
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    Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:26 am  

    Much like Smillan, I give a Slavic flair to the North Flan peoples - stronger where they survive largely intact, as in Stonefist and Tenh (Rus), and weaker where they've been overrun by other cultures (Nyrond, BK, Horned Lands, Iuz). Rovers much more Cossacky.

    I even used the Cyrillic alphabet to explain in-game the confusion between divergent spellings of Tenh (spelled "Ten" in the Blackmoor books; yes, I know it's a different world). The Cyrillic "n" actually looks like Roman H. So in Cyrillic, "Ten" looks like "TEH". I imagine Oeridians coming in, seeing this and misreading it ("You call yourselves Teh?" "No, Ten." "So what's the H for?" "What H?") and settling on a hybrid Tenh ("I guess the H is silent").

    A lot of the Slavic flair will come out in my nearly-finished article looking at Flan history. One of the cooler things I discovered is that "Vecna" is IIRC a Serbian word for Eternal (or close- it's not quite a c, but close enough for me), which fits in my scheme of giving Vecna a north Flanaess origin.
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    Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:08 am  

    Quote:
    One of the cooler things I discovered is that "Vecna" is IIRC a Serbian word for Eternal (or close- it's not quite a c, but close enough for me), which fits in my scheme of giving Vecna a north Flanaess origin.


    Interesting bit of research there Chevalier, thanks for sharing.

    Reading all the posts in this thread I've now got myself in a quandary about whether a Slavic style people are more appropriate as Oeridian, Flan or Suel! I suppose that's why I love these forums!
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    Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:13 pm  

    Slavs are a mix of peoples/cultures. They are not what would be referred to as racially or culturally "pure", as those areas have been sacked and sacked again, over an over, throughout history. First one group rules and dominates, then another, then another, etc. As such, the Slavic regions are melting pots of races/cultures. At this point, the Slavs are "related peoples" simply due to similar racial/cultural admixtures. There are plenty of areas with a similar background of racial/cultural admixture in the Flanaess, because, the Flanaess is a melting pot. If you want Slavs, you should probably go with an area where there is a mix something like SOFb, SOfb, or something similar.
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