One of the PCs was a part of Gradsul merchant guild. This guild is closely allied with clerics of Zilchus and also sponsored by them. Vast majority of the members are Zilchusites.
The PC had promised to take a caravan of supplies to north, to mercenary regiment fighting for the liberation of Geoff. Without prior notice, the PC arrived four days late. The guild master and his adjutants attempted to hold a serious discussion with the PC to chastise him (no actual penalty was involved and the meeting was private). The PC refused to accept this and left. He refuses to return the guild ring too. He also has publicly announced that he wants an apology from the guild and has tried to join their rivals, the sea-traders of Xerbo. The faithful of Xerbo have no interest in rebels.
The problem here now is that I'm trying to come up with the reaction of the guild and the clerics of Zilchus. They are Lawful Neutral, but they are also professional businessmen.
The possibilities would be:
1. The ex-member is not worth their attention. What's gone is gone.
2. The ex-member is blacklisted and every will cost him double. Blacklisting is extended to other kingdoms where merchants are loyal to Zilchus.
3. They put a bounty on his head.
4. They apologise, accept him back and conspire to get him killed for profit.
The problem is that I don't want to get carried way but I don't want the NPCs treated as a joke. Any advice? I think the neutral option would be to handle this 100% canon. Then I wouldn't be too lenient or trying to over-defend "my" NPCs.
First, they can't ignore the refusal to return the ring. That means someone is out there representing their business who cannot be trusted to do so responsibly. Second, IMHO they would not conspire for an assassination. Zilchus is about fair dealing for the most part; your fourth option sounds more like the work of his brother Kurell.
I think the fair option would be the blacklisting. If the PC is prone to travel far, the simplest enforcement IMHO would be a Mark of Justice. That would alert the faithful that he was not to be trusted wherever he went. If he complains, make it clear that the mark was placed on him for his refusal to submit to a hearing, and will be removed if he returns and submits. He goes back, lets them dress him down, pays a fine if necessary, and the mark disappears.
Applying the mark of justice will be tricky; it's a touch spell. IMC, I'd have a church official whose job it was to do this, who was prepared to follow the PC if necessary. This agent will specialize in using subdual damage, spells or paralytic poison to take people alive so he can give them the mark. Any expenses incurred in pursuing the PC would be pair for by the Zilchites and added to the PC's fine he has to pay.
So that amounts to two possible punishments: either he gets the mark of justice, or he has to constantly run away from this church official who is being paid to hunt him down and mark him.
* Reveal that the PC's contract had a magical enforcement clause that allows the Mark to be placed at a distance. While this may seem slightly underhanded, I can see the Zilchites justifying not telling him because "an honest man had nothing to fear from it."
* To save expense on the special agent pursuing him, they just spread the word ahead of him and ask that whoever he deals with next be the one to Mark him.
1. Enforce guild discipline.
2. Ensure that their reputation is upheld.
This is intolerable. One the one hand, it makes the guild look weak, and unable to police its own, which would almost certainly be a breach of its (royal?) charter. Secondly, the PC can now pass himself off as a guild member, which increases the danger of fraud by a purported guild member, which likewise would damage the guild's extremely valuable reputation. In addition, there is the matter of the personal bridges he burned among the guild leadership and memberships.
Option 1 would be the end of the guild. A non-starter.
Option 2 would be a start, but why stop at 100% markup? Simply embargo him. No one in Gradsul and wherever else the guild's charter or influence runs is allowed to sell him anything. This would include food and drink, transportation, weapons and gear, and any other transaction. Sleeping in the streets and starving will certainly not be fun for him. Even non-guild members would not want to anger the merchant's guild, nor would churches. The reach of the guild need not be limited by its charter either! It would probably have reciprocal arrangements with other guilds as well, at least throughout the Sheldomar Valley if not further afield (major centers of trade like Dyvers and Greyhawk leap to mind). The guild will likely contact all of his business associates as well, letting them know that he has been dismissed for cause; this might lead to a massive loss in business. Further, the guild can always initiate a lawsuit against the character (quite common in medieval England). Much like today, this will be costly, reputation-damaging, and time consuming, everything the guild can afford and a character cannot. Ignoring a writ to appear would be really bad, as now the character is thumbing his nose not only at the guild, but at the civil authorities, with all that implies. The guild may not have an army of enforcers on call, but the state does!
Option 3 would be possible, though what Keoish law says about this is anyone's call. I think the guild would want to exhaust all legal means first before pursuing shadier options... after all, their reputation is valuable to them.
Option 4 would require the whole guild to conspire, as otherwise it would look a lot like option 1, with the proviso that the guild needed the player more than he needed them... unlikely!
Overall, I think your PC should learn that ticking off powerful established interests has consequences... big, painful, ugly, reputation-mangling, lawyer-involving consequences. There need be no combat, just the constant gnawing of his stomach, slammed doors, and lawyers billing him by the hour will likely be enough to force the player to come to terms, and perhaps even do penance. In my mind, this would not be a case of a vindictive DM trying to thwart a player, but a player bringing a whole lot of obvious pain on himself through foolish decision making.
This seems like one of those, "The DM wouldn't dare screw with my character! Whateva! I do what I want!"
And so #2 (and a bit more).
One, because not only was the character an unrealistic idiot ("Whaddya mean it is bad to show up four days late to a contracted delivery?!"), two, wouldn't give back the guild ring and so could intend to discredit the guild further by claiming to represent its interests (so the blacklisting would be a matter of course), and three, publicly asking for an unwarranted apology and then seeking to join the guild's rival, would pretty much be unforgivable. That bridge wasn't just burned, it was pissed on too (and not to put out the fire either).
Not dealing with this sort of idiot would impugn the reputation of both the Guild and the Church, so I would also add that the Guild and Church would gather a group of...facilitators...to reacquire the ring from the character, leaving the character in such a condition that they would require the services of a priest, which they would certainly not find forthcoming at any church of Zilchus, anywhere. It would be particularly poignant if, at the time of this event, the only church in the area that could offer such services to the character was a church of Zilchus, which should leave the foolish character in a state such as this:
(Seriously. When players ask for "it", by all means give "it" to them.) _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I'd go with Tarleton's modification of option 2. In the LGG Zilchus is one of the "named" gods for almost every civilized nation in the Flanaess. It's really hard to operate as a merchant prince while under embargo by the Church and Zilchus and anyone who wants to do business with them. And even though they're competitors, I doubt any secular guild or priesthood of any other god of trade is going to deal with this guy once word gets around.
I like Deepshadow's Mark of Justuce idea, but it make me chuckle at the thought of Zilchans constantly dogging this guy's footsteps.
*Knock, knock*
"Who is it?"
"Church of Zilchus. I'm here to serve a Mark of Justice on you."
EDIT: I bet they only show up when you're trying to sit down to dinner.
I think that whatever the Zilchans do it must be within the letter of the law.
If the player is fraudulently representing the guild it could be possible that this is a criminal offence in the eyes of the actual Government who possibly issue the Guild Charters (I'm not 100% on the workings of the Guild system I have to admit). Your PC isn't just in bother with the Church of Zilchus but maybe he is commiting a crime of fraud in the eyes of the government.
At the least a fine should be imposed and continued resistance could result in a prison sentence / hard labour or ultimately exile. Is the player prepared to become a criminal over his behaviour? Does he have any assets that can be siezed?
The Zilchans may be legally entitled to place a bounty on the PCs head for his safe return into custody.
Basically make the PC's life a stream of inconvenience - merchant embargos, bounty hunters, enterring settlements becomes a problem with informers lurking at every corner. Ultimately he has two choices - to give in to the law or become a criminal. Whether you allow the character to continue as a PC in that case is your call.
The Merchants' Guild of Gradsul and the priests of Zilchus should have considerable legal connections. There's no need for a powerful guild with a royal charter and an incredibly wealthy LN priesthood to resort to assassination or passive blacklistings and bounty hunters.
At the very least, charge the PC with impersonating a guild member and theft of guild property. Also, this is wartime, the PC just broke a military subcontract, lives may have been lost, and the priests are going accuse the PC of everything possible, so I would court-martial the PC for treason and "conspiring to sabotage the war effort."
Either way, send out the constable, some city guard, and one or two mid-level priests with instructions to incapacitate the PC. Of course, they won't hesitate to use lethal force if the PC attacks. Depending on how well the guild knows the PC, this strike team may have rough knowledge of the character's abilities, magic items, and tactics. If the PC escapes, you can enact a lawful-neutral version of the notoriety system from WGR6 with the addition of merchant blacklistings.
If you're feeling lenient and this would totally sidetrack your storyline, maybe have some friends warn the PC to "get out of town...FAST!".
Finally, what class is the PC? If he's a priest who just tried to abandon his god, he shouldn't be casting any spells in the near future.
I agree with vestcoat, the guild and the temple would be very well connected in legal circles and would want to see the miscreant brought to justice. Even if there are no offences of impersonating a guild member or breaching a contract in secular law in your campaign, have you considered a clerical or guild court?
If the PC is a cleric then a church court could be convened to try him (in absentia if necessary) and to hand down various sanctions including, but not limited to excommunication (which should result in loss of clerical spells at least). The churches of the middle ages were extremely powerful and Zilchus' faith with the backing of powerful merchants should be just as powerful if not more powerful.
As an Over-the-Road Truck Driver, who simply must deliver the load by 2:15 pm, on Tuesday, March 19th, I can tell you how this really works.
Though a person isn't usually fired when this happens a first time, or because of flat tires and other breakdowns, your attitude still plays are great part in it. Of course, if you're late because you chose to dally with your girlfriend in Dallas, Tx, well, that's an entirely different matter.
So no merchant organization, anywhere, is going to do business with this guy when the Church of Zilchus "black-ball's" him.
But that's missing the point entirely -- O'Mighty Dungeon Master!
This is the World of Greyhawk! And -- just like in the Real World -- he took the "Oath." For instance, "your" Wedding Vows can be found in Scripture. They were not invented by Man. When you marry that Woman/Man you're taking an Oath to God, which is why Divorce is such a serious matter.
Your guy took an Oath to the God Zilchus! There IS Divine Retribution! Oh yes, the local High Priest of Zilchus would be involved in this matter and can ask his God for such a thing. Translation?
Perhaps this is just "bad luck." Or, perhaps he should NEVER have "screwed" with Zilchus!
Remember the premise of our game: Never, ever, disrespect a God in Greyhawk, because Greyhawk's Gods are active, they do take a hand in such matters. (Deities and Demigods page 17)
And you needn't tell him. Make it part of the game for him to find out. Simply add +3, or more, to his opponents' Stats -- AC 15? Nope, now it's AC 18. "Sorry! You missed!"
"How in the hell do I keep missing? Why can't I hit this guy? HOW IN THE HELL DID I FAIL ON A NATURAL 20!?"
Could it be because his "natural 20" was really just a 17?
...The PC had promised to take a caravan of supplies to north, to mercenary regiment fighting for the liberation of Geoff. Without prior notice, the PC arrived four days late. The guild master and his adjutants attempted to hold a serious discussion with the PC to chastise him (no actual penalty was involved and the meeting was private). The PC refused to accept this and left. He refuses to return the guild ring too...
-My initial thought was to question whether or not there were extenuating circumstances (M-S mentions the RL example of a flat tire), but the issue here seems to be the players WORD. He shouldn't have promised to deliver on a certain date if he wasn't 99% sure he could deliver ON THAT DATE. It's up to him to allow for delays when he makes the deal. Therefore, he needed to take his medicine from the PTB. Since he didn't, I'm with those who make him personna non grata (or the Keolandish equivalent), and maybe some magical repurcussions.
As for the guild ring, the player has clearly indicated that he's no longer part of the guild. So unless I'm missing something, that's conversion. The last time I checked, most societies in the Flaneass have laws against that. In the USA, it's a civil issue (like bankruptcy), but in Gradsul/Keoland, it might be a misdemeanor or felony.
Thank you everyone so far, great stuff. Keep 'em coming.
I was thinking that the guild might report this to the city guard which would simply search the PCs when they enter the city next time. City guard would not explain their reasons, but they would confiscate the ring. City guard is not under the guild's command of course, but they might perform a check up because it's basically about stolen goods. If the stolen ring is found, the PC is fined for theft and officially considered as a petty thief.
If the PC wishes to make a complaint, he is free to do so. That would mean facing the magistrate with no hope to win. He has no case.
I have decided that they will no longer be able to buy anything. The PC has a hat of disguise, but it doesn't conceal his voice. Some traders might still recognise him. The whole group must be blacklisted because otherwise his companions would simply buy him what he needs.
The innkeeper's have a separate guild in Keoland but they will be smart enough to kick him out.
If the PC visits the merchants' guild, they will get a cleric with detect thoughts and discern lies (both are available to Zilchan clerics). He will ask if the PC has betrayed them. If his surface thoughts reveal the truth, he must pay a heavy fine or possible face prison (dungeon).
In my campaign, the temple of Zilchus is enormously powerful, especially in secular, financial matters, internationally. Crossing the temple intentionally results in grave financial penalties.
No merchant or craftsman would want to defy the temple of Zilchus, or worse, the god himself, so adhering to an anethema would be almost absolute.
The PC will quickly find that paying double for everything, or worse, NOT being allowed to purchase anything; is a major bummer.
I also like the idea of curse-like penalties, but only if the PC was:
a)a full devotee of Zilchus, and
b)intentionally, and with foreknowledge, commited the violation
I like to give the PC he benefit of the doubt, but when a PC flouts the rules, I bring the hammer down. Hard. To do otherwise would bring ruination and havoc.
I'd like to think any merchant who even wants to pretend he's honest would have expected to face some kind of sanction (at the VERY least, loss of reputation), for failing to make a delivery on time.
It might be understandable if the merchant had a good excuse for the tardiness: "Lizard men attacked us while we were passing the marsh.one of the wagons got bogged and it took us a whole day to get it out after we drove the scaly bastards off." might do the job, at least if the mercenaries the supplies were going to didn't suffer from the delay significantly. The merchant may still have to pay some fine by the guild, or whatever sanction the guild may require.
But it looks like the player of the merchant character didn't take it seriously. I'd say let the chips fall where they may then. Walking out on the meeting should be enough to qualify as voluntarily leaving the guild. Refusing to return the ring, would be seen as a middle finger gesture to the guild leadership. As it is now, just handing the ring over won't be enough anymore. even after that, an abject apology from the former member, and maybe something else, and maybe they'll consider lifting the embargo on the character after a few years.
I'm not so sure they'd put a price on his head, but a reward may be offered for the return of the ring. (HOW someone gets the ring is irrelevant to the guild if a non-member brings it to them.)
Considering the manner in which this individual relinquished membership in the guild, I'd also say his career in the southwestern Flanaess is over forever.
Allow me to clarify. "You" CANNOT change the flat tire on a Truck. And though you may carry a "spare" -- though not always -- it IS NOT on a wheel.
You will sit on the side of the road and await a mechanic, in a special truck, with special tools. That might be two hours, or more. Other "breakdowns" entail the same problem.
Plan for such? You have NO CONTROL over "when" the mechanic will arrive. Some may well be busy and you will have to call around. Big O tires, and such, work on your automobile, not "big rigs." So you also have a limited availability of who you can call.
Had a flat in Kansas once, was 70 miles to the nearest Truck Stop and "he" was the only one in the area capable of fixing my flat. Lost 4 hours. Federal Law says that I am "On Duty" that entire time -- there is no making that up. I am still required to STOP when I am out of hours.
It is a completely different thing than your puny little automobile.
And you'd best appreciate that Ecclesiastes 9:11 does apply to you:
". . . because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all."
No one can plan for everything, not even the DM. Where does that leave your PC?
"Honor" dictates that you try your best. Thus there is no excuse for "dallying." Genuine "accidents" are another matter entirely.
"Well, let's see. We might get waylaid, so I'll schedule 10 minutes for the fighting and 5 minutes for the healing, then we can get underway again."
Allow me to clarify. "You" CANNOT change the flat tire on a Truck. And though you may carry a "spare" -- though not always -- it IS NOT on a wheel....
-I've never changed a tire on an 18-wheeler, but I've changed a tire on a 5-ton truck and a track on an M577, which is probably more analogous to changing a wheel on a cart or wagon.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...Plan for such? You have NO CONTROL over "when" the mechanic will arrive. Some may well be busy and you will have to call around. Big O tires, and such, work on your automobile, not "big rigs." So you also have a limited availability of who you can call.."
-First, I did write 99% sure.
Given the tech', yes, you have to make allowances for things to go wrong (predicting things that can go wrong used to be a nice chunk of my life. Getting people to prepare for it was the more irritating part ).
Using a nautical equivalent, sailing ships are dependent on the wind. Just because your vessel can make 8 knots doesn't mean that you're going to make an 800 nautical mile voyage in 100 hours, and anyone who promises to make it in 2 weeks is promising soemthing they might not deliver. If they were smart, they'd be rewards and penalties in the contract, but only Sutemi knows those details.
Using a nautical equivalent, sailing ships are dependent on the wind. Just because your vessel can make 8 knots doesn't mean that you're going to make an 800 nautical mile voyage in 100 hours, and anyone who promises to make it in 2 weeks is promising soemthing they might not deliver. If they were smart, they'd be rewards and penalties in the contract, but only Sutemi knows those details.
The trip itself to Geoff certainly takes a while. The estimate was 40 days. The guild had planned that the caravan leaves Gradsul on a certain day and it tries to reach Geoff in 30-50 days. It was inconvient that the PC didn't arrive on time because it meant that they just had to hold the goods wondering if he even shows up. Since he arrived late it means that there is less time for delays along the way, since the caravan already leaves four days late. It wasn't anything serious but they weren't too happy about it since lot of gold was involved and no prior warning was given. Thus only a firm talking to was needed and if the explanation was lacking, maybe a solid warning also.
Last edited by Sutemi on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
...The trip itself to Geoff certainly takes a while. The estimate was 40 days. The guild had planned that the caravan leaves Gradsul on a certain day and it tries to reach them Geoff in 30-50 days. It was inconvient that the PC didn't arrive on time because it meant that they just had to hold the goods and wonder if he even show up. Since he arrived late it means that there is less time for delays along the way, since the caravan already leaves four days late. It wasn't anything serious but they weren't too happy about it since lot of gold was involved and no prior warning was given. Thus only a firm talking to was needed and if the explanation was lacking, maybe a solid warning also.
...his delay meant they had less slack in their schedule. Got it.
I think hauling him into the court of common pleas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Common_Pleas_(England) or the keosih equivalent would demonstrate the error of your player's ways. A civil proceeding with the guild is simply one a player cannot win, as the guild will extend and delay, racking up court charges a character can never hope to cover. A smart player will settle, return the ring, pay a fine, maybe publicly apologize, and get on with his career...
This has surely become a pitched discussion, but I think the general consensus is that the Church of Zilchus won't take this matter lightly given the PC's complete lack of respect and even downright contempt, it seems. I agree with the general attitudes expressed that the Church of Zilchus will not tolerate such disrespect...perhaps even blasphemy.
For starters, I agree with the statement that the clerics of Zilchus will behave legally and will not behave in an underhanded manner, that meaning in a criminal fashion. No assassins, no poisoning, no hired thugs to pummel the PC, no torching his property out of revenge, etc.
I fully support the idea that the first thing the Church can do is blacklist the PC (and his companions, if they are equally culpable, or not, given the 'perception' of the Church) so that any Guildmembers (which could be the majority of the businesses in the region) will ban him completely. Nobody affiliated with the Guild is even permitted to offer services to the offender without risking their own standing. Only a desperate person (or someone more loyal to the PC) would even think of doing this. At best, you can leave it to a highly modified reaction roll (there is one in the 2e DMG on page 103, and you can treat it under the "Threatening" or "Hostile" table, depending on your choice). Allow the PC to use his Charisma modifier to offset (or worsen, if a low score) whatever penalty you choose.
Secondly, have the Church formally charge the PC with stealing property, and whatever potential offenses you can legitimately level against him. This will get the local magistrate and guardsmen after the PC. Have them actively begin looking for him. Maybe offer a reward for information leading to his capture if he is particularly adept at hiding. If bounty hunters or mercs are legal in the area, maybe add them to the mix.
Lethal force should only be used if lethal force is used by the PC. A cleric (or several) from the Church can be on hand to help assist with the capture of the PC (they have major access to Charm sphere in 2e). Clerics of Zilchus also have major Divination powers, so this means they can also scry on him if he is particularly slippery. This may help the clerics to discern his location, if they garner enough peripheral information from this attempt. This will definitely keep your PC hounded, glancing over his shoulder, nervously eluding capture...
If/when the PC is caught, he will have more charges added to his list no doubt, starting with evading capture, etc. He will have to face trial before a court. This will be an interesting role-playing event for you and your player(s).
The PC may very much opt to leave the entire country, and that alone may be his saving grace...but he cannot return without risking capture, incarceration, and trial.
Yeah, big blunder on his part. If he's wise, he'll be quick to make reparations before things get out of control.
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