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    Canonfire :: View topic - Who are the most powerful characters of every class?
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    Who are the most powerful characters of every class?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:23 am  
    Who are the most powerful characters of every class?

    Of every character class, who are the most powerful individuals in Flanaess?

    Rules: Mortals only. Living characters only (CY 591). Flanaess natives only. Canon or semi-canon allowed.

    Fighter = Lord Robilar
    Wizard = Iggwilv
    Cleric = Canon Hazen/Eclavdra
    Paladin = King Belvor
    Rogue/Thief = Rakehell Chert
    Druid = Reynard Yargrove
    Ranger = Rowena of the Silverbrow
    Monk = Korenth Zan
    Assassin = Elder Aunt Firuz Tesh

    Psionicist? Please continue the list.


    Last edited by Sutemi on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:46 am; edited 2 times in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:57 am  
    Re: Who are the most powerful characters of every class?

    Sutemi wrote:
    Of every character class, who are the most powerful individuals in Flanaess?

    Rules: Mortals only. Living characters only (CY 591). Flanaess natives only. Canon or semi-canon allowed.

    Fighter = Lord Robilar...
    Cleric = Canon Hazen...

    -IIRC, both Hazen and Sevvord are listed in the LGG simply as "20+"; Sevvord might be higher level than Robilar.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:21 am  

    Are we talking about strict levels? Or access to resources (including magic) as well as level attainment? Their ability scores, too?

    Such information could sway the outcome one way or the other,

    Lanthorn
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:44 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Are we talking about strict levels? Or access to resources (including magic) as well as level attainment? Their ability scores, too?

    Such information could sway the outcome one way or the other,

    Lanthorn


    Let's say strict levels but gear and magical items can be considered tie-breakers if two characters seem equal.
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:39 pm  

    I vote for King Belvor for the most powerful fighter, if you allow paladins in the mix. He's got impressive starts, is of a very high level, and possesses most, if not all, of the benefits of a fighter INCLUDING paladin abilities (healing, spell-casting, immunity to disease, etc.) AND some kick butt magical items. Sir Robillar may be hard pressed to best him. Of course, Sevvord Redbeard is in the running, and only Iuz knows what that murderous savage has at his beck and call. I will continue perusing my tomes for other candidates.

    For mages, Mordenkainen seems the overt and obvious choice...HOWEVER, what about Iggwilv? She's, technically, mortal, and is still alive (25th lvl?). If you disallow this witch, what about Philidor? Isn't he more potent than even Mordy? If you don't allow Philidor (sigh), what about Rary?! I think Rary's got it over Mordy. He's higher in level, has awesome statistics, and "offed" two of his former fellow archmages...

    Monks...easy. Whoever the leader of the Scarlet Brotherhood is at this time.

    Clerics? I'd agree with Hazen. Offhand, I cannot think of any cleric whose Divinely given power rivals his own. Besides, he serves a GREATER Power to boot, so has access to spells not available to high-level clerics serving Lesser or Demi-Powers (sorry, Althea and Halga!).

    Not sure right now about thieves. Will have to do a search. Offhand, Nerof Gasgal or Org Nenshen comes to mind, but Gasgal is likely out of practice and surely there's someone else more adept than Org (but not by much, I'll wager!).

    until next time,

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:39 pm  

    In addition to those mentioned already:

    Fighter: Warduke - 18th, Dungeon Magazine #105 lists him with some very nice magical toys.
    Also: Lord Franz Torkeep - 19th (10/9 Fighter/Knight of Holy Shielding), Isle of the Ape, http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Franz,_Lord_Torkeep

    Druid: Reynard Yargrove - 14th, Isle of the Ape, http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Reynard_Yargrove

    Thief/Rogue: Rakehell Chert - 18th level, Isle of the Ape, http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rakehell_Chert
    Also: Telek Senh - 17th, The Scarlet Brotherhood, Hesuel Ilshar, p. 26.

    Wizard: Iggwilv - 30th level (26/4 Wizard/Archmage), Enemies of my Enemy, Dungeon Magazine #149 http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iggwilv

    Cleric: Eclavdra - 24th, Drow of the Underdark, p. 193.
    Also: Agath of Thrunch - 19th, Isle of the Ape, http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Agath_of_Thrunch

    Ranger: Rowena of the Silverbrow - 16th, Isle of the Ape, http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rowena_of_the_Silverbrow

    Monk: Korenth Zan - 17th, The Scarlet Brotherhood, Hesuel Ilshar, p. 26.
    Also: Elder Sister Hissek Sharn - 16th, The Scarlet Brotherhood, Hesuel Ilshar, p. 26.
    Also: Iiscul - 14th, The Vault of the Drow, LG Journal, August 2002.

    Assassin: Elder Aunt Firuz Tesh - 17th, The Scarlet Brotherhood, Hesuel Ilshar, p. 26.

    Those are the ones I'm aware of.

    SirXaris
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:43 pm  

    It seems that I haven't managed to spell out the goal of this thought exercise clearly. Apologies.

    Let me try again:
    As an collective effort, I'd like us to find out who are the most powerful NPCs of every character class.
    King Belvor is a great example, thank you Lanthorn. Belvor is a fine example of a powerful paladin. He is not an example of a powerful fighter, if by "fighter" you refer exclusively to a game-mechanical character class, not a dictionary example of a person who fights.

    I've edited the OP to include your ideas Lanthorn. Thank you again for your contribution!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:44 pm  

    Thank you SirXaris, I'm editing the OP as we speak!
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:44 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    It seems that I haven't managed to spell out the goal of this thought exercise clearly. Apologies.


    None needed, good Sutemi. Sorry we were off the mark.

    Quote:
    I've edited the OP to include your ideas Lanthorn. Thank you again for your contribution!


    Very welcome. I will continue looking for other persons of note who may fit the bill.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:51 am  

    SirXaris wrote:


    Fighter: Warduke - 18th, Dungeon Magazine #105 lists him with some very nice magical toys.


    After a long consideration, I can't choose Warduke or Torkeep over Robilar. Even though Warduke has impressive arsenal and probably could defeat Robilar, Robilar still has about 6 level advantage over him. The Unnameable Hierarch is clearly an overpowering sponsor, but the gear has less weight here than levels and personal might.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:16 pm  

    Sutemi - if you're updating the OP, could include each NPC's level and cite the sources?

    I like the topic premise, but lists should be separated for 1-2e and 3e. 3E has so much level inflation compared to earlier editions that a combined list isn't very useful as a 2e gamer.

    3E characters gain 2 levels in one 32-page module, opposed to one level every four adventures in 1e-2e. This led to 20th-level knights and archmages whose entire career consisted of one Dungeon Magazine adventure path, which, in turn, led to ever-more-powerful villains to challenge said characters. And so we got Warduke and a 30th-level Iggwilv.

    Comparatively, most high-level NPCs were shunted away from the first twenty years of Greyhawk. They tended to be quasi-deities and hero gods or they moved on to other planes. Acererak was barely conscious of his presence on Oerth, Murlynd wasn't home, Mordenkainen vanished into the West, Iggwilv acted through agents, and Keraptis didn't care what the players did in his dungeon. Like the gods, epic-level NPCs rarely intervened. High-level modules were few and NPCs were used as background, not statblocks.

    If we're going to make a list, it should either include everything up to hero gods or 3E should be separate.

    Anyway, here's a couple additions:
    *The highest level bard is Gwydiesin of the Cranes - B30, Ivid (is he a hero deity? Or a NPC? You decide!)
    *Expidos in Bastion of Faith is a 20th-level Paladin.

    EDIT: If you count Paladin in Hell, Klysandral is a 26th level Paladin.
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:39 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    I like the topic premise, but lists should be separated for 1-2e and 3e. 3E has so much level inflation compared to earlier editions that a combined list isn't very useful as a 2e gamer.

    3E characters gain 2 levels in one 32-page module, opposed to one level every four adventures in 1e-2e. This led to 20th-level knights and archmages whose entire career consisted of one Dungeon Magazine adventure path, which, in turn, led to ever-more-powerful villains to challenge said characters. And so we got Warduke and a 30th-level Iggwilv.

    Comparatively, most high-level NPCs were shunted away from the first twenty years of Greyhawk. They tended to be quasi-deities and hero gods or they moved on to other planes. Acererak was barely conscious of his presence on Oerth, Murlynd wasn't home, Mordenkainen vanished into the West, Iggwilv acted through agents, and Keraptis didn't care what the players did in his dungeon. Like the gods, epic-level NPCs rarely intervened. High-level modules were few and NPCs were used as background, not statblocks.


    All true, Vestcoat. However, we must also take into account that each edition of the game also tended to advance the Greyhawk timeline a few years. If Iggwilv and Mordenkainen were about 20th level when the original World of Greyhawk boxed set was released (1980?) in about 576 CY, it does seem to reason that they would have increased in level by the end of the Greyhawk Wars and after Living Greyhawk ended in 598 CY(?).

    SirXaris
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:41 pm  

    One more: "Archdruid"Immonara D16 (Ivid).

    SirXaris wrote:

    All true, Vestcoat. However, we must also take into account that each edition of the game also tended to advance the Greyhawk timeline a few years. If Iggwilv and Mordenkainen were about 20th level when the original World of Greyhawk boxed set was released (1980?) in about 576 CY, it does seem to reason that they would have increased in level by the end of the Greyhawk Wars and after Living Greyhawk ended in 598 CY(?).

    First, GH NPC advancement after about 14th level tends to happen at a glacial pace. For example, Bigby, Drawmij, Jallarzi, Nystul, and Otto each only gained one or two levels in the eleven years between 580 and 591, and they're all under 20th. Advancement after 20th should be even slower. Going 20 to 30 should take a very long time.

    Second, GH, as laid out in the original works, doesn't have interventionist, epic-level characters. They become quasi deities long before they reach 30th level. Or they wander off, act through agents, and their stats are never published. It's a defining part of the campaign flavor. It's one reason I play GH instead of FR. I'm no Gygax purist, but Iggwilv and Mordenkainen should go the route of Lum and Keoghtom, not Elminster.
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:51 pm  

    Vestcoat,

    I'll not argue with all you said above. In fact, I agree. But, when an adventure path takes PCs to 20th-22nd level, they tend to not be awed much by the threat of a 20th level Iggwilv. The stats provided for her at 30th level are given in case the PCs are stupid enough to actually attack her in the adventure. They're supposed to seek her out for information only. She does not take the glory from the PCs, but instead offers them assistance that could easily spelll their doom. I don't object to an ocassional use of a high level NPC in that manner.

    SirXaris
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:05 pm  

    Since it seems the levels of the "big names" has come up, I dug out my 1st edition Rogue's Gallery (1980). Towards the back several of them are statted out.

    Bigby: MU 13
    Mordenkainen: MU 16
    Robilar: Ft 15
    Serten: Cl 10 (no idea how a cleric created MU spells)
    Tenser: MU 14

    I believe at the time, they were meant to be the "Oh wow! That's a powerful guy!" types as well. Compare this to 2nd edition stats of the FR big names, like Elminster. I believe one reference I have for him places him at 29th level.

    I can understand some of the power creep. When I play a MU character, I look forward to being able to cast those 9th level spells. However, I also know that at least in 1st or 2nd edition, once you get past 20th level, there's just not that much to challenge the character.

    Fighter of the party: "OK, we killed the tarrasque here. We need to go to an alternate prime plane and take care of the tarrasque over there."
    Other fighter: "I can't do it over the weekend, I got the kid this week. Next Monday good for you?"
    The elf in the party: "OK, but if we do that, then you better come with me to deal with Lolth. I've really been getting sick of her lip lately."
    Wizard of the party: "This should work for me. Only plans I got is golf with Boccob on Saturday."
    (I'm sure you get the idea)
    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:08 pm  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Wizard of the party: "This should work for me. Only plans I got is golf with Boccob on Saturday."
    (I'm sure you get the idea)

    Ah, but he "won't care" if your late for the tee time. Laughing Laughing

    Seriously, the only problem with level creep is it isn't linear. seems somewhere I recall reading that so many sessions of encounters would equate to the average level up.. but I could never get that to balance out the ole sheet so to speak when comparing primary NPCs level progressions from generation to generation game wise. So even if one tried to use said formula it didn't compute timeline wise.
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