Here is topic - what are connections between Scarlet Brotherhood and Black Spiral cult? I've readied in Living Greyhawk Gazeeter about something called the Black Brotherhood and would love to read more about it. I ask as now my players are fighting with Tharizdun cultists in Caves of Chaos and one of most engaged in the setting made backstory of his PC fighting the Brotherhood before. So logical for party and campaign is connecting two forces in Sheoldamar Valley. Where can I find more info on this factions? Are there some official modules/adventures connected to both groups or at least one of them? Bonus question: I think about in-ploting the Forge of Fury to this whole two faction story and nothing other than "cultist tricks PCs in to trap" I can't think of.
If you are using the Scarlet Brotherhood as your main foes for your PCs, I highly recommend getting your hands on The Scarlet Brotherhood supplement. It contains extensive information about them, their workings, etc., etc., etc. This includes their connection to Tharizdun via the Black Brotherhood! However, the Scarlet Brotherhood does not largely worship this Power (though other non-Brotherhood folk don't necessarily know this fact), but rather the following ones: Syrul, Pyremius, Wee Jas, Bralm, and Lerg. Minor worship to other dieties occurs, but not in any large numbers.
Rumors abound, though little is known for a certainty. So you should bare in mind that everything you hear in regards to this matter is not necessarily true. When contemplating the role of these various factions, one must take into consideration the role and actions of the Speakers of the Black Smoke. (The Scarlet Brotherhood, page 17)
"Not a true faction in itself, these people are all expert liars who infiltrate other factions and keep any from becoming too influential; they spread rumors about factions and individual faction members to destroy alliances and turn friendly groups against each other. The Speakers know that if any one group were to gain too much power, the Brotherhood might lose its perspective and topple; the current structure with many factions allows many voices to be heard, giving the leaders of the Brotherhood more options. Not surprisingly, this group is largely populated by followers of Syrul."
As for the Brotherhood's official connection to "Dread Tharizdun:"
"Tharizdun . . . many across the Flanaess believe him to be of Suel origin, especially those who have heard agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood affirm that their nation worships him. Not even the Brotherhood knows where he comes from . . . The government does not consider Tharizdun a member of the Suel pantheon, and thus his worship is not endorsed; only citizens on the extreme fringe of Brotherhood society actually revere him. However, the Brotherhood does use Tharizdun's name as a threat . . . his name incites fear in those that hear it, and the idea of an entire nation of people worshiping Tharizdun is enough to give pause even to confident enemies . . . offhand comments escalate into rumors that undermine the morale of the Brotherhood's enemies." (The Scarlet Brotherhood, page 13)
So Tharizdun is not officially worshiped by the Scarlet Brotherhood, but by a small "fringe" group known as the Black Brotherhood. But the Speakers, the "rulers" of the Brotherhood are happy to spread rumors that say otherwise, so as to inspire "terror" in the hearts of their enemies.
Not that it's canon or anything, but I've been reading the Onnwal Project's most excellent sourcebook, and.....
According to the authors, the reason Mordenkaiden, Bigby, et al. didn't step in - or really help Onnwal at all in the Scarlet Brotherhood Invasion was....(wait for it)...
The Circle of Eight would rather fight low intensity war than have the higher probability that the SB would awaken That Which Must Not Be Wakened.
I dunno if I buy that, but it's an entertaining thought.
Where is the reference to the "Black Spiral" to be found?
I'm getting tired of looking for it!
My polish version of LGHG says that Tharizdun's cultist's use black spiral and inverted pyramid as it's symbols.
They also use the inverted peace symbol - looks like a capital 'Y' within a circle. I assume that is supposed to represent a top-down view of a pyramid, though.
The Spiral of Decay and the inverted Ziggurat are Tharizdun's holy symbols.
Anybody who worships Tharizdun uses them.
I was asking where the term . . .
wyrdhamster wrote:
Black Spiral cult . . .
. . . came from, or could be found -- in Canon. Apparently -- no where. I'm assuming, Wyrdhamster, that by "LGHG" you are referring to the LGG (Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) -- and I have not find the term in there.
As to the Spiral of Decay and the inverted Ziggurat, a quick read of my Caerdiralor stories -- archived here on Canonfire! on the "Articles" page under Stories & Fiction -- you would know I have no need of an explanation of those symbols, nor their proper usage. I was only asking about the term used by Wyrdhamster -- "Black Spiral cult" -- which I now see to be of his own invention.
As to the Spiral of Decay and the inverted Ziggurat, a quick read of my Caerdiralor stories -- archived here on Canonfire! on the "Articles" page under Stories & Fiction -- you would know I have no need of an explanation of those symbols, nor their proper usage. I was only asking about the term used by Wyrdhamster -- "Black Spiral cult" -- which I now see to be of his own invention.
Probably yes, but I was affected by Black Spiral cult from the Caves of Chaos that looks alike as Tharizun's worshipers.
Had to check but, thanks, Rasgon, I've got that one!
And thanks to you as well, Wyrdhamster, but I believe you are referring to the modules Keep on the Borderlands and possibly Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, both of which involve "visiting" the Caves of Chaos.
I'll look through those for a reference to the term "Black Spiral Cult."
Sub-topic: How distinct are cult of Tharizdun and Scarlet Brotherhood? What are differences, what similarities? And any idea hot to connect at least one of this groups with events in Forge of Fury?
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
And thanks to you as well, Wyrdhamster, but I believe you are referring to the modules Keep on the Borderlands and possibly Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, both of which involve "visiting" the Caves of Chaos.
I'll look through those for a reference to the term "Black Spiral Cult."
Thanks again.
In D&D Next there is only Caves of Chaos part of module as part of playtest. It is cut Keep on the Borderlands, but I was refering to the material I run, so it is CoC. Black Spiral is mentioned as Evil Chaos cultists dress. My players named it this way, because I was using the symbol as monster reference to cultsits - they saw only symbol, not talking about Tharizdun, as monsters don't know it's cult. But I think myself it's nice alternative to "Tharizdun cult", don't you think?
None the less - I made reason of Black Spiral for all the mess in Caves of Chaos to be using Gruumsh Eye and mass sacrifice of villigers to summon the Father of Elder Evils.
In D&D Next there is only Caves of Chaos part of module as part of playtest. It is cut Keep on the Borderlands . . .
Ah! Thanks for the clarification. I wouldn't know that because I don't care for D&D 4e and have never bothered with D&D 5e, or "Next." And I don't have any intention of doing so.
But to each his own, enjoy yourself. At least now I don't have to bother looking for the term "Black Spiral cult" in any Canon references.
Thanks again.
wyrdhamster wrote:
How distinct are cult of Tharizdun and Scarlet Brotherhood?
They are completely "distinct" and separate from one another. Refer again to my previous post. Only a small fraction of the Scarlet Brotherhood's population worship Tharizdun and these are called the Black Brotherhood.
The Scarlet Brotherhood -- as a whole -- does not even recognize Tharizdun as one of their Gods and does not support his worship. Any rumors that they do worship him are just that . . . rumors. The Scarlet Brotherhood encourages these rumors to frighten people. It's all propaganda, nothing more.
Their similarities are that they are both "evil." Their differences are many, but basically boil down to this: Tharizdun wishes to destroy the Universe. The Scarlet Brotherhood merely wants to enslave everyone.
The Scarlet Brotherhood -- as a whole -- does not even recognize Tharizdun as one of their Gods and does not support his worship. Any rumors that they do worship him are just that . . . rumors. The Scarlet Brotherhood encourages these rumors to frighten people. It's all propaganda, nothing more.
Still -were can I find more info about Black Brotherhood then? And is it possible that Black Brotherhood only use Scarlet one to further they goals, make enough power base and then, once and for all, summon Tharizdun?
And, once again, has someone idea how to connect Forge of Fury to the Brotherhood or Tharizdun cult - best both?
Not that it's canon or anything, but I've been reading the Onnwal Project's most excellent sourcebook, and.......
-Onwall Project sourcebook? Anything like the one for the Bandit Kingdoms?
bugsy wrote:
According to the authors, the reason Mordenkaiden, Bigby, et al. didn't step in - or really help Onnwal at all in the Scarlet Brotherhood Invasion was....(wait for it)...
The Circle of Eight would rather fight low intensity war than have the higher probability that the SB would awaken That Which Must Not Be Wakened.
I dunno if I buy that, but it's an entertaining thought...
1) The C of 8 may have had an exaggerated sense of the SB's attachement to Tharizdun (who says their intell' is perfect?;
2) The C of 8 may have known the real attachment between most of the SB and Tharizun (i.e., not much), but been worried what that one small faction might be inspired to do;
3) That could be a cover story for the C of 8's real reason for not intervening.
Not that it's canon or anything, but I've been reading the Onnwal Project's most excellent source book, and.......
jamesdglick wrote:
1) The C of 8 may have had an exaggerated sense of the SB's attachment to Tharizdun (who says their intell' is perfect?
Guys? Let's stay on track and not hijack Wyrdhamster's thread. We'll try to answer his questions, not try to find new points of discussion . . . that's what "new" threads are for.
Wyrdhamster, I'm still trying to find some Canon information concerning the Black Brotherhood. I'll let you know if and when I find anything.
wyrdhamster wrote:
And is it possible that Black Brotherhood only use Scarlet one to further they goals . . .
As to the Black Brotherhood'smotives, who can say? Canon source information on the organization is obviously scanty, at best, or someone would have already posted something -- almost certainly Rasgon would have. I doubt any such material we manage to find is going to supply us with any real information concerning their motives. You'll probably just have to make that up for your own game.
wyrdhamster wrote:
. . . has someone idea how to connect Forge of Fury to the Brotherhood or Tharizdun cult - best both?
Again . . . I'm working on it. I'm sure a couple of others are too.
The goals and theology of a Black Brotherhood that follows Tharizdun would reflect that of the god, don't you think? And what is Tharizdun's goal?
The complete and utter destruction of everything; time, space and matter!
So the people who'd follow or make up a Black Brotherhood would be some pretty deluded or very twisted. The kind of people who'd be ultimately self-defeating. Plus, the (other) gods might have something to say about their own destruction...
Personally, I find the Scarlet Brotherhood to be great villains - they can be overt or behind the scenes in just about any mischief to be found in the Flanaess. I just finished re-reading the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook. It's a great source of info on the Brotherhood, as well as Hepmonaland and the Amedio JUngle.
So the people who'd follow or make up a Black Brotherhood would be some pretty deluded or very twisted.
There was a novel -- I forget the name -- in which the Adventures -- acting on behalf of Nyrond -- traveled to Acererak's tomb. The hero was a Paladin of Heironeous called "the White Hart" and the antagonist was a Cleric of Tharizdun. That book would give you a good idea of what worshipers of Tharizdun might be up to.
Alas, I am unfamiliar with the module Forge of Fury, having never played it. But a quick reading of the first couple of pages tells me that a viewing of the new movie "The Hobbit" would do you good . . . to garner ideas, that is. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
The goals and theology of a Black Brotherhood that follows Tharizdun would reflect that of the god, don't you think?
No. While worshiping Tharizdun is ultimately a bad idea, that doesn't make the Black Brotherhood insane apocalypse cultists. Villains always get into trouble because, in their hubris, they assume that they can harness, contain, and exploit power they can't begin to comprehend.
The Black Brotherhood was reintroduced in the LGG for DM's who wanted to remain consistent with the Gygax novels. Thus, their goals should match the Scarlet Brotherhood's in Artifact of Evil: they think they can harness the Theopart and/or be rewarded for awakening Tharizdun. Of course, they'll fare no better than the Nazis at the end Raiders of the Lost Arc, but they imagine otherwise.
I find it difficult to believe that there are many sentient beings insane enough to purposefully and knowingly worship a being intent on destroying everything, including them. More likely, most worshippers of Tharizdun either subscribe to the theory that they can harness and control the power, as Vestcoat posited, or they are simply deluded. It is quite likely that Tharizdun isn't completely honest about his end goals with his worshippers. If they believe that he is more like other evil gods - promising earthly, as well as eternal, power and wealth - more sentient creatures would turn to his worship, having been duped by the false promises of an evil god.
The novel is also called "The Tomb of Horrors!" Well, one of those moments!
Kaerion Whitehart is the hero and Paladin of Heironeous. His antagonist is a Durgoth, Priest of Tharizdun and ally of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Tharizdun reveals his will by means of some god-awful dreams.
I finally remembered Joe Bloch talking about it awhile back:
Mystic-Scholar, thanks for links, I will read them in spare time.
vestcoat wrote:
The Black Brotherhood was reintroduced in the LGG for DM's who wanted to remain consistent with the Gygax novels. Thus, their goals should match the Scarlet Brotherhood's in Artifact of Evil: they think they can harness the Theopart and/or be rewarded for awakening Tharizdun. Of course, they'll fare no better than the Nazis at the end Raiders of the Lost Arc, but they imagine otherwise.
I very like this interpretation - I steal this! "Apocalyptic Nazi" were always my thing.
SirXaris wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that there are many sentient beings insane enough to purposefully and knowingly worship a being intent on destroying everything, including them. More likely, most worshippers of Tharizdun either subscribe to the theory that they can harness and control the power, as Vestcoat posited, or they are simply deluded. It is quite likely that Tharizdun isn't completely honest about his end goals with his worshippers. If they believe that he is more like other evil gods - promising earthly, as well as eternal, power and wealth - more sentient creatures would turn to his worship, having been duped by the false promises of an evil god.
To me, that is much more believable.
SirXaris, Wizards article series ( whitch I readed before this topic ) say that most cultists are being lied and promised power in "new world" after coming of Tharizdun. Also, I'm Mage: the Awakening Storyteller and in M:tA there are many fringe and apocalyptic groups ( called Scalsti ), worshiping beings like Greyhawk Tharizdun and Lovecraft's Great Old Ones. In their sourcebook is nice sum up as to why people do what they do:
Mage: the Awakening wrote:
They want to end pain or free themselves from the rules of existence. They follow the logical conclusion of a nihilistic philosophy. They want to punish apathy. They can’t see another way out.
No common motive drives the Scelesti, but consciously or not, they work toward a common goal: drowning the universe in the Abyss. To some Wicked, this conclusion is inevitable. They’re not agents of the end, but early adopters of a cosmos to come. The Abyss is the future—and as a place where time twists and fractures it must, in some sense, have already arrived. The apocalypse has always been; Scelesti just know how to see it beyond the comforting Lie. Others work as prophets of a glorious doom, or agents against
life and law. Accursed routinely uphold multiple, contradictory ideas. Logic is a trap, after all. Reason is a prison.
jamesdglick wrote:
1) The C of 8 may have had an exaggerated sense of the SB's attachement to Tharizdun (who says their intell' is perfect?;
2) The C of 8 may have known the real attachment between most of the SB and Tharizun (i.e., not much), but been worried what that one small faction might be inspired to do;
3) That could be a cover story for the C of 8's real reason for not intervening.
Interesting idea. But why still Circle of Eight wouldn't intervine? Scarlet Brotherhood is openly countering they philosophy of balance...
. . . they'll fare no better than the Nazis at the end Raiders of the Lost Arc, but they imagine otherwise.
Insanity = Doing the same thing over and over again . . . expecting different results.
-Hey! You got your old avatar back! I always preferred the "scholar in repose" look better anyway.
SirXaris wrote:
I find it difficult to believe that there are many sentient beings insane enough to purposefully and knowingly worship a being intent on destroying everything, including them...
-OK, here's my stab at it. Since the Scarlet Brotherhood usually gets the Nazi analogy treatment...
When Hitler was in the Bunker in April of 1945, he decided that he had failed to turn the Germans into the master race. At that point, it looks like he said "to He77 with it" and decided that he didn't care anymore, and would allow the German people, who had proved themselves unworthy, should be destroyed in a Gotterdaemerung. Sort of the ultimate sore loser...
Under normal circumstances, SBers wouldn't want to destroy the universe since that would destroy, among other things, the Suel race. But if they had reason to believe they failed to put the Suel on top, perhaps they might- sort of a "if we can't win, no one will." You can argue that that's crazy, but there was enough of the real thing IRL in 1945.
Now, that would premise that an SBer thought they'd failed. I wouldn't see that in CY591, but maybe they figure they gave it their best shot, and everything is destined to go down the tubes from there. The other possibility would be that worshipping Tharizdun is the final fallback, in case they lose.
wyrdhamster wrote:
...Interesting idea. But why still Circle of Eight wouldn't intervine? Scarlet Brotherhood is openly countering they philosophy of balance...
-I havern't read the Onwall Project which Bugsy references, but they might be afraid that the bad guys are holding back, but will let loose everything if they know they are facing the C of 8.
Now, that would premise that an SBer thought they'd failed. I wouldn't see that in CY591, but maybe they figure they gave it their best shot, and everything is destined to go down the tubes from there. The other possibility would be that worshipping Tharizdun is the final fallback, in case they lose.
Or they got idea that Suels got too comfortable. Like when animals lose they natural predators kinda thing...
As we ending Caves of Chaos I think about maybe some city episode in Istvin. There I think about thicking plot with Black Brotherhood - and maybe even showing proper Scarlet Brotherhood in game. So here is new question: what would be reaction of SB members on information that there are in midst them BB? How will they dealt with that?
Also - anyone having any idea as to how add Black Brotherhood to Forge of Fury?
So here is new question: what would be reaction of SB members on information that there are in midst them BB? How will they dealt with that?
The BB has some agents in the upper SB hierarchy or they wouldn't be able to operate and remain undetected. (IMC, the BB are the true leaders of the SB, not a splinter sect.) Perhaps your SB whistleblower reports to his superiors, but doesn't go high enough - his boss is part of the BB too. The whistleblower is either told "thank you, we'll take care of it" and transferred to a backwater or meets an untimely demise.
As we ending Caves of Chaos I think about maybe some city episode in Istvin. There I think about thicking plot with Black Brotherhood - and maybe even showing proper Scarlet Brotherhood in game. So here is new question: what would be reaction of SB members on information that there are in midst them BB? How will they dealt with that?
If you're familiar with Robert Jordan's series, The Wheel of Time, you may find inspiration from his description of the Black Ajah, the way a few of the good sisters go about weeding it out of the White Tower, and the difficulties they encounter in that pursuit.
As we ending Caves of Chaos I think about maybe some city episode in Istvin. There I think about thicking plot with Black Brotherhood - and maybe even showing proper Scarlet Brotherhood in game. So here is new question: what would be reaction of SB members on information that there are in midst them BB? How will they dealt with that?
If you're familiar with Robert Jordan's series, The Wheel of Time, you may find inspiration from his description of the Black Ajah, the way a few of the good sisters go about weeding it out of the White Tower, and the difficulties they encounter in that pursuit.
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Where can I find more info on this factions? Are there some official modules/adventures connected to both groups or at least one of them? Bonus question: I think about in-ploting the 
