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    Canonfire :: View topic - Paladins and Thieves
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    Paladins and Thieves
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 20, 2002
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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:51 am  
    Paladins and Thieves

    In my new campaign which has just started in Saltmarsh the party are currently adventuring around the "old haunted house". In the party is a paladin of St. Cuthbert, and two elven thieves. Now, one of these thieves is particularly aggressive in his siphoning off of monies from anything that is found. And as a result the 2nd thief is beginning to follow suit.

    The player who is running the paladin is a little inexperienced in playing a paladin, and he has failed to step in and adminster some cudgel justice, even after the first thief was blatently seen trying to steal some gems that were found.

    Now my question is, how do I help the paladin player come to terms with these larcenous thieves, before the whole party suffers. I don't want to come down on him hard for not stepping in so far, or stop his paladin powers, I just need a few pointers as to how he might regain control, as the thieving is beginning to spiral out of control.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated... Happy
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:33 am  

    Hey Yabu. I would agree with not coming down too harsly on the paladin at first since the player is a bit inexperienced at roleplaying a paladin. Since he has already let several incidents pass without comment, it may actually come down to a bit of fancy footwork in roleplaying with the offending thieves. I'd let the player know away from the table that his paladin is going to have to be a bit more aggressive with such behavior among party members. Let him know that a paladin will not be partial to such shows of thievery either by comment, or possibly by the cudgel if they continue.

    My player's paladin in Saltmarsh got the gnome thief/illusionist straight on the very first night of play. He bluntly told the lil thief that the first time he caught him thieving or thieving from any party members he would administer Pelor punishment with his fist to the gnome's face. That seemed to stop any thieving among party members. It also kept any blatant stealing or thieving activites around the party down to picking locked doors or searching for/and removing traps, etc. Things worked out rather well.

    Since the thieves have already become emboldened by the paladin's lack of fistly reprimand, it may be plausable to simply wait until the next incident and let the paladin explode on the both of them. Give the player the heads up about the fact that his role should be more active in curtailing his companions activities when it comes to stealing. If he's a strong roleplayer he may be able to threaten a severe beating to the head and shoulder area if they do not cease their stealing habits.

    It really has to come down to plain old roleplay. Let him know what he has to do and since he's inexperienced, maybe guide him in the right direction on how he should respond the next time the thieves decide to steal in front of him.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:15 am  
    Suggestions

    Question: Is he not acting because he thinks it will result in a deadly confrontation? Are the thieves specifically acting in a ma

    Here is what I would do...

    With a few out of character suggestions before the session, mention that his conscience is bothering him due to his failure to act, and that he should take it up with a priest. He could loose access to his holy powers.

    The paladin is obviously affiliated with the church of st. cuthbert. On one of his trips to town, have him encounter a Priest of St. Cuthbert (If there is one). The Priest is the conscience of the church, the paladin is the arm. Let them talk it out In Character; the DM can give guidance as you think a Priest of Cuthbert would.

    You may also need to speak to the thieves. While they are "playing their character," it could be dangerous.

    Caveat: What not to do.... from ugly experiance.

    Don't let it go... It just gets worse.

    In a recent session where I am playing a Noble, we had someone playing a "Drunken Master," variant. This character was a drunk, and the player played it to the hilt. On several occasions several players were forced to play contrary to what they know their character would do, as the minimum their character would do included violence.

    The Drunk was stumbling around while we were on a mission to rescue lost children from Kobolds. In his stupor he shot my character's niece with a crossbow bolt. As a drunk, he whipped out his flask. As an uncle and a noble character, I felt obligated to act, and took away his flask.

    He attempted to respond with deadly force. A flaming burst sword swipe, one critical hit, and the Drunk lay dead. That pretty well wrapped up the session.

    The whole group was upset, yet they all agreed (except the drunk) that it was appropriate. The DM agreed, and lamented that he had not confronted the drunk sooner. The Player, now angry, protested that the actions were inappropriate, and that the DM should not allow it to stand.

    After several weeks, he stepped back from this position, apologized to the group, and roled up a great new barbarian that all players and character value highly. Too bad it had to go that way.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:19 am  

    I sounded kind of preachy in my post. I did not mean to be so. Sorry.

    I have to tell you though that this was one of the most unfortunate and easily avoidable experiances I have had in 25+ years of gaming.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:22 am  

    I don't think you sounded preachy at all Anced. You are very right. Once some things have already been allowed to go on for too long it becomes very difficult to get things back under control. Especially, in this case, without the players of the theives becoming upset OOC by a sudden reprimand in character. Luckily our group is very closely knit and roleplay well together. Sometimes there can be a very fine line between roleplaying and actually upsetting the player out of character.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:46 am  

    Yabusama, I just ran into this problem with a game that started up two weeks ago. I was playing one of the the thieves.

    I talked to the DM and reworked my character, since I knew that having a LE thief and a LG paladin in the same party would never work long term.

    So now I've got a thief, but he's more interested in getting rich with his friends. After all, if you're rich and your friends aren't, you end up paying for everything. Happy
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:58 am  

    Thanxs for all the replies, keep em coming.

    As far as the suggestion of a pep talk from a fellow St Cutherite, that is possible but as Saltmarsh is a small place, it is the paladin's wife (IMC paladins are allowed to marry Cool ) who is the only cleric of the faith in the village, so a shoulder to cry and a massive nagging session may be the answer.

    I agree that this behaviour on behalf of the thieves vrs paladin needs stomping on, I too have been playing since the DMG was printed using slate and chalk Confused , but what I seek from the community at large here are a few golden tips I suppose.

    For example, the next time the thief pockets something, or acts shifty how should I inform the paladin player as to how to react? My gut feeling (as already mentioned above) is a swift clubbing, and as they are all first level, this will result in a thief lying on the floor with a sore head very quickly. I am loath to withhold paladin abilities, as it is not really his fault, he is just inexperienced and up against someone with a larger character (in real life and in the campaign!), so having a stand up argument between the PCs is not an option. The paladin player has already stated he will without his lay on hands from the thief. so maybe he is heading in the right direction, he just needs to be more forcefull.

    P.S. Nice to see you back Tedra Happy , the place has seemed odd without you.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:02 pm  

    The real solution is not to allow incompatible character concepts to begin with. After several exceptionally irritating occurrences in campaigns, both D&D and Champions, I started imposing extremely strict requirements on characters. Usually it isn't an issue, but I make it clear to people that character competition is one thing, but character conflict is simply not permitted. I will not have a campaign ended because one player's character concept requires him to antagonize another player's character until that character must resort to violence to maintain his character's concept.

    What I would do is take all the player's involved and make the situation clear to them. Either the thieves have to stop thieving, they have to accept a thorough beating from the paladin so they reform, or the paladin needs to retire and that player develop a new character.
    If I were to get preachy about it, I'd inform the players of the thieves that their characters need to be retired immediately, as such blatant theft from the party will destroy it in the middle of a combat. Every campaign I've run is way too lethal for any such covert chicanery. Any rogue caught shorting a chest would quickly be stripped naked, thoroughly searched, and booted out in the middle of the dungeon. (Note that I did not mention he would be allowed to dress between the searching and the booting. That is deliberate.) I know some don't mind playing otherwise, but I do, and won't.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:50 pm  

    Yabu wrote:
    P.S. Nice to see you back Tedra Happy , the place has seemed odd without you.


    Thank you so much, Yabu. I felt odd without it. Wink
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:49 pm  
    Disagree

    Samwise,

    I respectfully disagree about the restrictions on characters. It is not REQUIRED that you impose such restrictions. Unruly characters have driven many a DM to that point however, and it is certainly understandable that you may wish to impose such restirctions. Some people who only play (I am thinking of one of my regulars) do not understand how much effort it takes to be a good DM, and will not take that into consideration when destroying a good campaign.

    IMC, to start, I lay out the general setting in which we are to start, and tell the players which characters will have an easy time, and which will be harder to fold into the game. As to character creation, I have two general rules: 1)If you can tell a good enough story, i will probably allow it. If you can tell me how a chaotic evil blackguard can exist with a paladin, a priest of Hieronus and a Knight of the Watch, go for it. 2) If you want to run something out of the ordinary, the other players must agree to put up with it.

    However, as in the case of the above Druken Master, sometimes, perfectly good players create characters who would irritate Jobe. That is the time for the DM to exert his/her authority. Any thief that steals from the party must not intend to stay with the party. If the players are doing it, allow the story to play out at first. If that does not work, then, well be a Dungeon Master. However, removing the Paladin will be unlikely to solve the problem. Soon, the druid will be putting lice in their bed. If they are not going to play as a team, then you cannot run a team game.

    This does not mean that I have never had a thief steal from the party. However, they did so in the most sureptitious of manner, and the party, players and characters, were none the wiser.

    If at any point it is no longer fun, it is the DM's job to bring it back, with the assistance of the players.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:33 pm  

    Anced_Math:

    But your two restrictions are effectively the same as mine. I do prefer to be a bit more stringent, limiting race and class sometimes because of the campaign concept, but alignment and character concept are open ended - to the point of inter-party conflict destroying the game.
    And rather than worry about it getting out hand and having to control it, I make things clear from the start. I am running a heroic or task based campaign. I expect the players to have characters that are either or both heroes or task focused. If you want to run outside that concept, do me the favor of finding another DM up front or I will hurt your feelings when I boot you out of the game.

    And almost everyone I have run for has not only supported me, they've suggested I don't go far enough! Although forced goody-goody isn't really wanted, most players get very sick of trying to fight other people who don't have any respect for either the DM or the other players, and only care about indulging whatever their current whim is. Nor are they thrilled with people who's idea of playing with a group is to lurk in the back and collect treasure after everyone else has done the hard part, then step to the front in town and insult all the NPCs, and engage in other gratuitously selfish acts. And lastly they do not have much use for someone who thinks the game is about fighting the DM rather than working with the DM to have fun in a campaign.
    Additionally, the few that don't have overwhelmingly proved to be the kind that trash out campaigns from selfishness in very short order. As such I find their objections to be an even greater endorsement.

    Now mind, I'm aware that is pretty extreme. I admit that freely. I have still found it to be better to control things from the start rather than try and take control after trouble has started.
    And perhaps that has a lot to do with what I've experienced, both really destructive behavior in some Champions games, and some really extreme attitudes in RPGA play. So I've seen really bad things and don't have a desire to deal with them in my games.
    If others can play others ways, more power to them. It is just not for me, or the majority of the people I play with.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:46 am  

    No offence Samwise but dictator comes to mind ;o)

    I totally see your reasons for wanting to impose such restrictions - I think a lot of thought should go into the group as a whole and not just the individual characters...but it is a game meant to be enjoyed by all...it isn't the DMs baby that the players are granted permission to participate in.

    I generally am reluctant to allow evil characters in a group unless a player can convonce me that they will not disrupt the flow of play and cause in-party hassles beyond the normal occasional rivalry and squabbling. But if they can come up with a good reason why they are all together, like Anced_Math, i'm more than happy to allow it.

    From experience players resent being controlled so much - they have to come to these realisations themselves. I's a case of team work - work towards a compromise don't enforce your opinion on them. It is important to have group that will work within the adventure but part of the role of a good DM is to encourage compromise and adapt to the players needs because I feel it's more of a case of the DM entertaining the players and not the other way around.

    I encouraged my current group to play mainly good characters in the Temple of Elemental Evil game we are playing. They all ignored me and are now discovering that a party of all CN people is problematic at times...but rather than retire characters some of them are roleplaying a natural shift towards CG in response to the evil they are horrified to see about them.

    In the case that started the thread...I would advise a combination. The advise of a Cutherbertine priest giving ethical guidance is a great idea. But at the same time speak to the thieves - out of character - explain the problem and ask that they, in character maybe tone things down just a little for the sake of gameplay. But there is no reason why such a group can't work...the two thieves could prove a perfect chance for the paladin to reform them...if every paladin through a strop and left every group that didnt act LG then they wouldn't get out much.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:12 am  

    I'd agree that dictator would be appropriate, except for one thing.
    As I stated, not only have my most recent players supported my decisions and rulings, but they've said I don't go far enough. They think I should have even harsher limitations on each segment of the campaign, excluding massive amounts of additional material in various products from the campaign, and keeping everything under control so that I can know what is possible and so can they.
    My last group was some of the most atrocious power gamers I've ever met. They know it, and they are tired of it. They don't want a game where they sit around trying to one-up me and I sit around trying to one-up them. They've been there, done that, and are bored out of their wits with it to prove it. They want to play a game. Some hacking. Some role-playing. Some character achievements. They don't want to play character design and buckets 'o dice adventure resolution.
    So when it comes down to it, I am letting them dictate to me how much control they want to see in the game. I am just stepping up as DM and accepting the responsibility to provide it.

    Now what I don't do is tell people how to play their characters. If they want to do something bizarre or peculiar or despicable, I let them know how I consider it, and let them decide to proceed. And I don't casually break rules or force situations. If I can't legitimately capture a character then I don't start a session with someone as a prisoner. Fortunately, that doesn't really limit me, as players will always find a way to do themselves in if you give them enough leeway. I accept that and never try to force them to do anything once they have accepted the basic concept of the campaign. The last ones have required them to work for the Kingdom of Keoland. As long as they did that, nothing else really mattered. Spit on the NPC ruler? Go right ahead. As long as his lands wind up annexed, do what you want. But mess it up and it will be held against you.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:17 am  

    *Bump*

    Some paladin issues came up around the household today and I remembered this post, Yabu. I was wondering if your situation was resolved, and if so how did things go?
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    Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:00 am  

    First some background, there are 2 thieves in the party, one who was caught trying to steal diamonds and the second who seeing the first one try and get away with it was also beginning to steal as well.

    This second thief had purloined Sanbalets spell book form below the haunted house. As the last session progressed and the big fight against Sanbalet and the other smugglers was eventually won, this second thief was spotted cutting off Sanbalet’s purse from his body when other members of the party lay bleeding during the combat.

    So to clarify things , we have the diamond thief and the spell-book thief. Both elven by the way.

    After the fight was over the Paladin first of all secured the help of the cleric of Corellon in the party, he didn’t want to wade into the elven thieves and have the cleric step and protect the thief as they were elves. He next secured the agreement of the other cleric in the party, that of Kelanen. So with some of the party now onside, he confronted the diamond thief, by saying his actions were unacceptable and tried to censor him with his club, however he missed with his attack roll. The thief was horrified to then see the cleric of Corellon take over the club and administer a strike. The thief was shocked that he had been “mis-judged” but accepted his punishment. The diamond thief and player seemed suitably contrite and to date the thief has been cooperating with the party.
    Next the Paladin moved on to the spell-book thief. Now this thief was adamant that he hadn’t stolen anything, and was fierce in his refusal to admit to anything untoward. He then agreed to emptying out his backpack under pressure form all of the party, who seemed most aggrieved that he was looting corpses instead of helping bandage up bleeding party members. Out of his backpack fell the spell-book, which he maintained he had for ages and hadn’t stolen at all. When pointed out that the spell book contained all the spells which Sanbalet had cast at them AND it had Sanbalets name inside, the thief still maintained he had done nothing wrong. I know this is almost unbelievable but he refused to admit stealing, and at one point I thought the thief was going to walk out of the group. Such was his fierce denial, that the Paladin didn’t use his club on him, but there was no doubt that everyone would be watching him with a close eye.

    So in conclusion the Paladin addressed both thieves, and so far both have been behaving themselves. As extra ammunition to the Paladin I was prepared for his wife to join in, and as a cleric she would of used Locate Object to retrieve the stolen diamonds if needed. I also gave him a lot of advice before the session, basically saying get the other members on side before acting and also to make up with the thief afterwards by treating them to a home cooked meal.

    I hope this helps.
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    Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:56 am  

    Well done! Now that Elf #2 knows y'all are suspicious, he might straighten up and fly right, instead of being the blue falcon he is (ask a soldier).

    I'm having a similar situation with a powergaming Monk (6 Cha with a 32-point buy) who keeps tracking down obscure splatbooks and asking if he can do this or that.

    On the roleplaying side, he's given me a quarter-page background and description.... Confused

    So the last adventure, he chased off after the Orc chieftain who saw a chance to leave skin intact.... Long story short, Monk3 + Orc Barb6 = Monk bleeding out. We'll see if things start to change next session.

    Telas
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    Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:35 am  

    Powergaming players need a swift lesson in justice in my experience. If this guy is just playing so he can look up the latest new rule or move (ie; The Inverted Nipple Tweak) then he needs to reconsider his character's future.

    Sadly I have run into power gamers before and they soon reform when they have to keep rolling up new characters when their old one chokes to death on their socks during the night Shocked
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    Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:06 am  

    Yeah, I started to worry when he showed up with a 6 cha. Sad

    Then I stopped worrying when he claimed he could jump up a 20' wall at 3rd level, and one of the other players shut him down by actually looking up the DC (it was 48). Happy

    It's like powergamers don't understand that as the DM, I can squash any of them like ants, regardless of how powerful they are.... Cool

    Telas
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    Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:59 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Anced_Math:

    And rather than worry about it getting out hand and having to control it, I make things clear from the start. I am running a heroic or task based campaign. I expect the players to have characters that are either or both heroes or task focused. If you want to run outside that concept, do me the favor of finding another DM up front or I will hurt your feelings when I boot you out of the game.


    This should really be standard operating procedure for any campaign. I don't mean those precise restrictions, but rather that a GM should always let the players know what kind of campaign it is up front and what types of characters are or are not appropriate. Even if it is to be a free-for-all where character conflicts are expected. The players can then decide if it is the type of game they want to be a part of.

    Of course, there are the occasional players who will ignore this information and then try to turn the GM's campaign into the type of game they want it to be instead of the kind he wants to run. Since I _do_ tell them up front what kind of game it is, I have no compunctions against booting them out for trying to ruin it. It is a lot of work to run a game, or a good one, anyway. I'm certainly not going to do all that work and then end up with a game that I don't enjoy. In all the years I've been gaming, I've only had to do this twice. Both times the other players thanked me for it.
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    Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:23 am  

    Telas wrote:
    On the roleplaying side, he's given me a quarter-page background and description.... Confused


    Actually, I prefer short backgrounds, as long as they are well-written. There's only so much information I really need to know about a beginning character's past. I need to know where they're from and how they justify being where the campaign starts. I need to know how they justify any unusual abilities they have, such as a fighter starting with a bit of tracking skill. And I need to know their IC goals, so that I can work their stories into the overall campaign story.

    Some of the really good roleplayers I've GM'd have started with simple backgrounds and then developed them into complex characters through play.
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