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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Keep on the Borderlands and the Temple of Evil Chaos
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    The Keep on the Borderlands and the Temple of Evil Chaos
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 08, 2003
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    From: Pretoria

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    Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:35 pm  
    The Keep on the Borderlands and the Temple of Evil Chaos

    Hi Everyone!

    I have decided to use Tharizdun as the god being worshipped in the Temple in the caves, for various reasons. I don't want a generic concept such as Evil Chaos but rather a specific Greyhawk deity that could spawn (forgive the term) follow on adventures, I think he fits quite well with the cults description provided in the module, and so on.

    Who did you use in this module and what we're your reasons? If you used Evil Chaos, was there a reason for doing that?

    My PCs haven't reached this area yet but I want to be sure I have considered as many angles as possible.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:04 pm  

    He seems like the perfect choice to me.
    GreySage

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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:32 pm  

    Tharizdun fits well as a generic deity of evil and chaos.

    However, I used Iuz since I placed the Keep/Caves of Chaos in the northern Vesve. Other chaotic and evil gods would work well, depending upon the location you choose for the Keep, but Tharizdun works pretty much anywhere.

    SirXaris
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:31 am  

    The Elder Elemental God would also work, tying it nicely to the GDQ series, depending on whether you treat it and Tharizdun as the same entity.
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:24 pm  

    Although not Chaotic Evil themselves, Nerull and Incabulos both allow Chaotic Evil clerics, and I think either of them would work.

    When I finally run the revamp of that module, I intend to use Nerull, personally.

    If you want a true Chaotic Evil Power, Iuz does work, as well as Erythnul, Beltar, Syrul, or Kurell.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:46 am  

    Or a demon lord, which would be be better still in my opinion. Orcus would be decent choice, seeing as he represents iconic Chaos, Evil, and Undead. Besides, Tharizdun is not a god of Chaos and Evil, but a god of Pure Evil (meaning Neutral Evil). The EEG is not a bad choice either, if you are into that "crazy" sort of unpredictable evil (and, really, who isn't?). Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:21 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Besides, Tharizdun is not a god of Chaos and Evil, but a god of Pure Evil (meaning Neutral Evil).


    Technically true, but the fact that entropy and insanity are part of his spheres of influence means he's more of a god of forces commonly associated with chaos than most chaotic gods are. Madness is the disorder of the mind, while entropy is the increasing disorder of matter. The chaotic alignment in OD&D meant something different from what it means in AD&D, anyway, and easily includes "pure evil."

    Basically the premise behind the OD&D alignment system is that the order of human civilization and the demihuman civilizations allied with humans is, if not always purely good, something good-minded people ought to think is worth preserving, because order includes social institutions that protect the rights of the weak. Opposed to it are monstrous, often inhuman forces intent on tearing it down and replacing it with savagery and rule by the strong. The notion of the "borderlands," then, is especially resonant, as the Keep represents the last bastion of order before the howling, hostile wilderness. The concept probably owes more to Poul Anderson than Michael Moorcock; in Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, Chaos is associated with the Axis powers in World War II; these were certainly not disorganized, but fascism threatened the social contract that dated back to the Enlightenment.

    In that sense, Tharizdun is firmly part of the forces of Chaos that the Keep exists to defend civilization against. "The cult of evil madness, entropy, darkness, and decay" seems an adequate summary of at least some of the things implied by chaos in OD&D. I'd play a neutral evil madness/entropy cult differently from how I'd play a chaotic evil madness/entropy cult (it'd be better organized and more hierarchical, more interested in chaos as a tool of evil than chaos for its own sake), but not necessarily differently from how I'd play a Chaotic madness/entropy cult in OD&D.

    That said, I'd probably go with the Elder Elemental God, if only because the GDQ series seems a more promising tie-in than WG4. Of course, that depends in part on where you're setting B2, and who else is worshiping Tharizdun in your campaign other than the cultists in the Temple. If B2 is leading into a major role for, for example, Tharizdun cultists among the Scarlet Brotherhood, then Tharizdun is probably a better choice.

    It also depends on who exactly is behind the Temple of Elemental Evil in your campaign. That might be the most obvious tie-in of all. If Zuggtmoy and Iuz are the sole founders of the Temple of Elemental Evil in your campaign, they're probably responsible for the Evil Chaos cult as well.

    So basically the nature of the Evil Chaos worshipers in B2 should depend on what kinds of adventures you expect the PCs to have next. I mean, if Orcus-worshipers are going to be a reoccurring thing, by all means use Orcus-worshipers.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:22 pm  

    Man, so many cool ideas!

    I had planned on using TOEE, but was also toying with the idea of tying in the Tsojcanth and Tharizdun modules in to the campaign too.

    My players aren't Greyhawk buffs so I can relocate the modules to fit my campaign, if required. I also like the idea of complex behind the scenes manouverings by various "powers".
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:30 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Technically true, but the fact that entropy and insanity are part of his spheres of influence means he's more of a god of forces commonly associated with chaos than most chaotic gods are. Madness is the disorder of the mind, while entropy is the increasing disorder of matter.


    "Disorder" in this case does not mean chaos though, but ailment. Madness takes many forms, some of which are orderly (and such sorts of compulsive behavior get lots of attention in movies to be sure), but madness in Tharizdun's case would be linked to hopelessness, futility, and despair instead of any sort of erratic behavior. The EEGs are more representative of truly chaotic madness, as they operate in that way. Also, entropy in regard to Tharizdun doesn't refer to increasing disorder, but increasing dissolution, ending in a state of nothingness, oblivion; the contemplation of which might lead one to madness (catatonia being rather appropriate). Besides, aren't the frothing madmen type lunatics always much more fun to play out than the Robert Smith "I'm sooo depressed." ones? Laughing Wink

    With so many choices available, why use a deity whose followers are supposed to have have no power at all, or *extremely* limited access to even minor powers? A low-level false cult with false "cleric" leaders could work for Tharizdun, but for a low-level cult with actual cleric leaders with actual divine power, Tharizdun is not a good choice of deity.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:59 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:47 am  

    I agree that Tharizdun is over used, much like Vecna IMHO, but my players don't know much about the game's lore so I felt I could get away with it.

    I have incorporated Yeenoghu in my long term campaign plans too. If I were to use a Demon Prince instead, who would you recommend? Maybe Demogorgon?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:04 am  

    [waves arms mysteriously]

    Tharizdun is the wrong choice. Pay no attention to my current avatar or title.

    [creepy noise]
    ooo-OOOO-ooo!

    This is definitely not reverse psychology.

    ooo-OOOO-ooo!

    Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:53 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    "Disorder" in this case does not mean chaos though, but ailment.


    "Chaos" from the perspective of the OD&D alignment system doesn't mean disordliness in the sense you're thinking. It means opposition to a harmonious, benign state. A healthy mind is a balance of humors; an unwell mind is unbalanced, antagonistic to itself. Such is Tharizdun. Orcs are creatures of Chaos not because they're incapable of forming phalynxes but because they're hostile to civilization. The Pharisee elves in Poul Anderson's novel are the lords of Chaos because they're hostile to Christian civilization.

    Quote:
    Madness takes many forms, some of which are orderly (and such sorts of compulsive behavior get lots of attention in movies to be sure), but madness in Tharizdun's case would be linked to hopelessness, futility, and despair instead of any sort of erratic behavior.


    No one said he represented erratic behavior. He represents the decay of the well-ordered mind. The symptoms of this go far beyond mere hoplessness and despair. Think amnesia, paranoia, delusion, hallucination, seizures, narcolepsy, comas. a decline in spatial awareness and general cognition and perception. In short, things that happen when the mind breaks down.

    Quote:
    Also, entropy in regard to Tharizdun doesn't refer to increasing disorder, but increasing dissolution, ending in a state of nothingness, oblivion; the contemplation of which might lead one to madness (catatonia being rather appropriate).


    It's the same thing. Matter in its ordered state assumes forms (Forms in Plato's thought; molecules, cells, crystals, and so on in modern parlance). As matter decay or dissolves, these structures become less complex and less ordered. This isn't chaos in the sense of complex weather systems or fractals, but it is a valid use of the word chaos.

    You're bringing a lot of baggage into this discussion drawn (it seems) from the way chaos is used in mathematics, the way the AD&D cosmology is structured, and the way alignment is used in AD&D, as well as, I think, a desire to see game objects kept in neat, well-defined conceptual boxes. I don't think this is appropriate for the way the term "Evil chaos" is used in B2, a module that predates much of this baggage. In B2, the cult could be dedicated to devils as easily as demons, if devils had been a part of the game then. I'm not saying Tharizdun is chaotic evil or that his approach to entropy is identical to Ygorl's (or, say, the Doomguard's in Planescape), only that his form of Chaos meshes nicely with B2's use of the term.

    Quote:

    With so many choices available, why use a deity whose followers are supposed to have have no power at all, or *extremely* limited access to even minor powers? A low-level false cult with false "cleric" leaders could work for Tharizdun, but for a low-level cult with actual cleric leaders with actual...


    It depends on the OP's future plans. A Tharizdun cult led by Scarlet Brotherhood monks and sorcerers and a high priest empowered by an artifact could be effective long-term opponents.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:35 am  

    warlock wrote:
    If I were to use a Demon Prince instead, who would you recommend? Maybe Demogorgon?


    Demogorgon is a great one to use and would make it extremely easy for you if you want to move your campaign over to The Savage Tide AP at higher levels. Otherwise, some may argue that Demogorgon is overused, but not so badly as Orcus.

    SirXaris
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:36 pm  

    warlock wrote:
    I agree that Tharizdun is over used, much like Vecna IMHO, but my players don't know much about the game's lore so I felt I could get away with it.

    I have incorporated Yeenoghu in my long term campaign plans too. If I were to use a Demon Prince instead, who would you recommend? Maybe Demogorgon?



    Completely agree with your opinion that Vecna is overused.

    While there are some great thoughts in this thread, I wouldn't go with the entropic (R.W. Chamber's 'King in Yellow'/Carcosa, H.P. Lovecraft's 'Hastur') vibe because, while a personal favorite, it doesn't suit this scenario.

    As far as what I would do?

    Let's break it down.

    From p. 22 of the original module:

    Quote:
    Shapeless forms of purple, yellow and green will dance and sway on the western wall, and if anyone looks at them for more than a moment, they must save versus Spells or be mesmerized into chanting a hymn to chaotic evil.



    Ok, so we know we want someone/thing Chaotic Evil - preferably associated with those colors. "Thematic" is what makes a great campaign.

    Next we have this from p. 23:

    Quote:
    A demon idol leers from the wall to the north, directly over the bed.


    Now demons are clearly mentioned as iconography. While this certainly doesn't exclude evil deities it does make it easier to support a Demon Prince as opposed to an evil, faceless, entropic entity or wicked, elemental power.


    We also have this from p. 22:

    Quote:
    their waists are circled with copper chains (worth 40g.p. each) with skull-shaped clasps fashioned of bone.


    Now skulls are most often associated with Iuz (in religious context such as this) but he's not the best choice, given the information we have and the needs/goals of the DM.

    Plus, be sure to read the rather sensual descriptions of the temple clergymen's chambers (too much for me to quote, atm).

    Definitely not Iuz's style - nor the style of many others.


    So who/what is the best choice?

    Graz'zt

    From his entry in the Greywiki:

    Quote:
    Standing nine feet tall, Graz'zt appears as a lithe, muscular humanoid. His skin shines like polished obsidian, and his eyes glitter with malevolent green light. He has yellowed fangs, pointed ears, and six slender fingers decorating each hand. He is sometimes described as having six small black horns half-hidden amid his thick black hair. These fiendish traits are apparent, regardless of whatever form Graz'zt chooses to take. He is considered among the comeliest demon lords of the Abyss, and dresses in the most expensive and elegant finery on the entire plane.


    Being father to Iuz and consort to Iggwilv makes him a Greyhawk icon and provides plenty of ways to segue into Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, should you so desire.

    He's chaotic evil so that meets the alignment req's.

    Many of the colors mentioned fit him thematically.

    He has no organized worshipers to speak of (yet), which gives you a chance to break new ground.

    He's not overused, from an actual-play standpoint.

    So, IMHO, he's your best bet, hands-down.

    I know if I ever run it, I'll practice what I preach.

    No pun intended, heh.




    - D
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    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:25 am  

    Does anyone even have Grazz't's clergy information (weapons/armor permitted, spell Spheres, etc)? I have Monster Mythology and it has numerous entries for various Demon Lords/Powers (including Demogorgon and Yeenoghu) but NOTHING about Grazz't.

    If this information were provided, I'd be tempted to put it to "good" use.

    -Lanthorn
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:27 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Does anyone even have Grazz't's clergy information (weapons/armor permitted, spell Spheres, etc)? I have Monster Mythology and it has numerous entries for various Demon Lords/Powers (including Demogorgon and Yeenoghu) but NOTHING about Grazz't.

    If this information were provided, I'd be tempted to put it to "good" use.

    -Lanthorn
    You can find my take on Graz'zt in "The Demonic Pantheon" of the Deitybase™.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:40 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Does anyone even have Grazz't's clergy information (weapons/armor permitted, spell Spheres, etc)? I have Monster Mythology and it has numerous entries for various Demon Lords/Powers (including Demogorgon and Yeenoghu) but NOTHING about Grazz't.

    If this information were provided, I'd be tempted to put it to "good" use.


    Lanthorn,

    That dearth of information is part of my point. It's open territory to do as one will (within the realms of personal/group taste and comfort). I'll post here what I've been able to collect below.

    From the web:

    Quote:
    The cult of Graz'zt is small, except certain monstrous races where his cultists are widespread and powerful. Most priests of Graz'zt, also known as the Chosen, are female, and the highest-ranking cleric in a temple is always female.

    Graz'zt enjoys blood sacrifices made in his name, and sexual rites are important in services dedicated to him as well. His temples are dark, secluded places where orgies are common. Some section of the temple is often shrouded in magical darkness. From there, clerics use magic on sacrificial victims to bring forth shadows that guard the temple.

    The clerics of Graz'zt tend to wear black clothing and favor silver jelwery. Most carry a wavy blade of some sort.

    Thrall of Graz'zt

    The thrall of Graz'zt are sinister, conniving, and thoroughly evil masters of arcane lore and dark secrets. They use their charm and guile to learn things that they should never know - a sort of seductive loremaster who depends on subterfuge, not study. A loremaster spends her days in a library learning secrets, but a thrall of Graz'zt steals, seduces, or tricks them from others.

    Thralls of Graz'zt often work in cabals. These sinister, secretive organizations sometimes work alongside rogues or assassins to manage the criminal underworld of an entire community or even an entire kingdom. The lust for power of a thrall of Graz'zt knows no bounds.



    From The Book of Vile Darkness, p. 68 is the Thrall of Graz'zt.


    Hopefully that's enough to entice you into giving it a shot.

    In the event I get a chance to run it myself, I'll let you know how I implemented it all.



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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:12 pm  

    Also, as a relevant and important side note:

    I found ► this image ◄ and felt it might be useful to anyone running The Keep on The Borderlands.


    Sir Xaris, especially!



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    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:06 am  

    I especially love the note 'describing' the owlbear. Laughing

    -Lanthorn, positively amused
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:12 am  

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:
    Also, as a relevant and important side note:

    I found ► this image ◄ and felt it might be useful to anyone running The Keep on The Borderlands.


    Sir Xaris, especially!


    That's a helpful map, DrassustheGuant. I especially love the reference to the "F...ing Owlbear". My players certainly felt that way about it. Evil Grin

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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:18 am  

    SirXaris wrote:

    That's a helpful map, DrassustheGuant. I especially love the reference to the "F...ing Owlbear". My players certainly felt that way about it. Evil Grin

    SirXaris


    Cool; glad to hear it may be of use to you.

    And talk about fumbling a Spot roll—

    I completely missed that "F___ing Owlbear" line!



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    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:17 am  
    MM2

    We've touched on this topic before and Moloch from MM2 (1st Ed.) came up as a possibility.

    And there's Lakshesherek too.

    ...and Baal, and Pagnyr'Parkus.

    See the

    http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2059&view=previous

    thread for more info. I can't find a valid link to the canonfire thread right now.
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