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    Canonfire :: View topic - Erythnul and the Pomarj
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    Erythnul and the Pomarj
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:39 pm  
    Erythnul and the Pomarj

    I've never started a thread before, but to avoid side-tracking the Earth Dragon thread...


    Anything on Ravagers for Greyhawk, other than the mention in the D&D 3.0 Sword & Fist supplement? They'd make a good fit for the Pomarj or Bone March, although a group of a dozen guys where everyone is 6th level or higher seems a bit much. maybe they take apprentices?
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:16 pm  

    Congrats on your first thread creation!

    I have not heard of the group you mentioned, but I don't much delve outside my treasured 1e and 2e references. Wink However, in an article that I read and printed from an Oerth Journal, it is stated that Lerrek the Lich is a very high lvl priest of Erythnul! I found that to be different and interesting given that liches tend to be wizards. And I didn't begin to fathom that Erythnul would imbue his clergy with lichdoom abilities and powers (seemed more appropriate for Incabulos, Nerull, Beltar, and Wee Jas, in my mind).

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:25 pm  

    James,

    Congrats on the new thread. Seems this group would fit in the Pomarj and I can see them having low level or zero level apprentices to take care of the more mundane tasks for them.

    I like expanding the humanoid deities here but Erythnul is a nice bonus here. As the Pomarj does have humans in its ranks and Erythnul takes worshipers from other races as well.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:33 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...I have not heard of the group you mentioned, but I don't much delve outside my treasured 1e and 2e references...


    -They're basically an order of psychopathic serial killers for Erythnul.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...However, in an article that I read and printed from an Oerth Journal, it is stated that Lerrek the Lich is a very high lvl priest of Erythnul! I found that to be different and interesting given that liches tend to be wizards. And I didn't begin to fathom that Erythnul would imbue his clergy with lichdoom abilities and powers (seemed more appropriate for Incabulos, Nerull, Beltar, and Wee Jas, in my mind).


    I think even the AD&D1 MM listed MUs and Clerics as Liches...

    Erythnul would proabably have no problem if it keeps Lerrek doing what he does...
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:46 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    However, in an article that I read and printed from an Oerth Journal, it is stated that Lerrek the Lich is a very high lvl priest of Erythnul! I found that to be different and interesting given that liches tend to be wizards. And I didn't begin to fathom that Erythnul would imbue his clergy with lichdoom abilities and powers (seemed more appropriate for Incabulos, Nerull, Beltar, and Wee Jas, in my mind).


    From the Duicarthex:

    Quote:
    Lerrek; CE; Human male (Lich) Clr22 (Erythnul) (Vesve)


    From WGR5, Iuz the Evil:

    Quote:
    Lerrek: If the DM wishes to bring Lerrek into game play, he is a lich with the powers of a 19th-level priest of Erythnul. His lair has magical items appropriate to such a monster, and Lerrek has also cast a wish so that, if slain as a lich, he will reform as a demilicb within six hours. His Lair is also noteworthy for the presence of several good-aligned magical items, relics and weapons taken from mighty, good priests and warriors the lich has slain in the distant past.


    Sergio :-)
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:26 pm  

    Well-cited, Sergio! Es bien, senior! Muchas gracias para la informaccion de libro Iuz. (Is that correct? My Spanish is rusty even though I try to use it in class with some of my students...)

    The OJ I mentioned earlier also places Lerrek as a former paramour of the dreaded necromancer archmagess, Iggwilv, whose daughter with that malevolent sorceress was none other than Drelnza...those of you who own a copy of The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth know who she is!!!

    -El Lanthorn, Maestro de Clase Sciencia

    Happy


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:46 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Well-cited, Sergio! Es bien, senior! Muchas gracias para la informaccion de libro Iuz. (Is that correct? My Spanish is rusty even though I try to use in class...)


    Lol! He's from Brazil. They speak Portuguese, don't they? Razz

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:50 pm  

    I did my research on this one JUST to be sure. Cool I double-checked his initial entry on DarkHerald's fantastic "Introduce Yourself" thread (6 pages and growing!), and he wrote down Argentina! I am fairly certain they speak Spanish, but, if not, I am sure that Sergio will correct this very Caucasian Pacific Northwesterner. Wink

    Adios, mis amigos,

    -Lanthorn, Geographer

    p.s. but you are correct, SirXaris, that Brazilians speak Portuguese...I won't make that mistake twice! :)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:57 pm  

    I just pictured Lanthorn going damn you Xaris, damn you to hell. Kind of like, Captain Kirk yelling Khan...

    Still I was impressed with his spanish. Rol-oeste good find keep em coming.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:01 pm  

    Happy Woulda if I didn't double check his homeland first... Wink

    Besides, it's not nice to damn a knight. You get Death Knights that way (is that how we got DLG?).

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:56 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Besides, it's not nice to damn a knight. You get Death Knights that way (is that how we got DLG?).


    Lol! You'll bring out my alter ego, the evil palindrome, Sir Axaris, if you're not careful! Evil Grin

    And, you're correct. I remembered his location mistakenly. Embarassed

    SirXaris
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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:51 am  

    James, congratulation on starting you first thread. Smile

    Rereading about Ravagers now, and thinking about them in relation to placing them in the Pomarj or Bonemarch, they put me in mind of the Norse berserker bands, especially where they're represented in more of a negative light. I could see some powerful orc chieftain, or in the case of the Pomarj, even Turrosh Mak, making use of Ravager war-bands. Although making use of them very carefully. The rest of the tribe would probably be pretty iffy about them, and avoid being around them, even in battle. Maybe especially in battle. "See those guys with the face tattoos? Stay away from them. The chief puts up with them because they're deadly in battle, but sometimes they don't know friend from foe... Scratch that. They don't really have any friends. Just stay away from them."

    For their part I see the Ravagers as being okay with working for someone else as long as they get to spread the slaughter and destruction that Erythnul thrives on, as well as being generously rewarded with loot.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:45 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Well-cited, Sergio! Es bien, senior! Muchas gracias para la informaccion de libro Iuz. (Is that correct? My Spanish is rusty even though I try to use in class...)


    Lol! He's from Brazil. They speak Portuguese, don't they? Razz

    SirXaris


    No, im from Argentina, a spanish speaking country. :-)

    The correct phrase is:

    "¡Bien citado Sergio! ¡Muy bien señor! Muchas gracias por la información del libro de Iuz."

    But, anyway, a very good try!

    Sergio :-)
    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:55 am  

    Muchas gracias, professor Sergio. Soy gringo, mas o menos, de Los Estados Unidos en una cuidad de estado, Washington. Es muy verde aqui'! Wink

    Tu' eres de "The Land of Silver!" Happy

    Glad you clarified my atrophied Spanish. I gotta pump up that proficiency skill, methinks. Smile

    -Multi-lingual Lanthorn, more or less (I also am fluent in GeekSpeak; just ask my students!)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:20 pm  
    Re: Erythnul and the Pomarj

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Anything on Ravagers for Greyhawk, other than the mention in the D&D 3.0 Sword & Fist supplement?



    Here's a few for you:


    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=523


    From Complete Warrior, p.73 ~

    Quote:
    RAVAGER
    Feared by many and understood by few, the infamous ravager
    is an individual who has dedicated himself to the service of
    Erythnul, deity of slaughter. Living a life of violence and
    savagery, the ravager seeks to spread this deity’s malignant
    infl uence wherever he goes, never resting long in one place,
    lest the forces of good and law pursue him.
    Ravagers who come from the ranks of fi ghters and
    barbarians fi nd that the ravager’s offensive capabilities
    en hance their combat skills, while wizard, sorcerer, cleric,
    and druid ravagers fi nd that their ability to cause terror
    in their foes is a very useful defensive measure. Ravag-
    ers spend much of their time with others of their kind,
    roaming the land in small, close-knit warbands, striking
    unsuspecting communities without warning, and retiring
    back into the wilderness to plan their next terrible raid.
    Sometimes the clergy of Erythnul commands a lone rav-
    ager to undertake some mission or project that obliges the
    ravager to join up with other individuals, but such alliances
    are usually temporary and must be managed carefully, lest
    they lead to quarrels or worse.
    NPC ravagers are usually encountered in small warbands
    of from two to six individuals, but sometimes a lone ravager
    may be encountered when undertaking a special mission.
    All ravagers are readily identifi ed by the bizarre and fear-
    some facial tattoos they wear to mark themselves as Eryth-
    nul’s instruments.
    Hit Die: d10.
    Table 2–29: The Ravager
    Base
    Attack Fort Ref Will
    Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
    1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Pain touch 1/day
    2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Aura of fear 10 ft. 1/day
    3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Cruelest cut 1/day
    4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Pain touch 2/day
    5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Aura of fear 20 ft. 2/day
    6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Cruelest cut 2/day
    7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Pain touch 3/day
    8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Aura of fear 30 ft. 3/day
    9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Cruelest cut 3/day
    10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Visage of terrorCHAPTER 2
    PRESTIGE
    CLASSES
    74
    Requirements
    To qualify to become a ravager, a character must
    fulfill all the following criteria.
    Alignment: Chaotic evil or neutral evil.
    Base Attack Bonus: +5.
    Skills: Intimidate 3 ranks, Knowledge
    (religion) 3 ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
    Feats: Improved Sunder, Power Attack.
    Special: Must survive the ravager initiation rites
    (see the sidebar).
    Class Skills
    The ravager’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill)
    are Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Move
    Silently (Dex), Profession (Int), and Ride (Dex).
    Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the ravager prestige
    class.
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ravagers gain no
    proficiency with any weapon or armor.
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ravagers gain no
    proficiency with any weapon or armor.
    Pain Touch (Su): Erythnul teaches that life is pain, and so
    is the touch of a ravager. A ravager can make an unarmed touch
    attack that deals 1d8 points of damage + 1 point per ravager
    level Weapon attacks also transmit the pain of Erythnul, but
    only at the rate of 1d4 extra points of damage + 1 point per
    ravager level. The ravager can make one additional pain touch
    attack for every three levels beyond 1st.
    Aura of Fear (Su): Enemies within 10
    feet of a ravager of 2nd level or higher take
    a –2 morale penalty on all saving throws
    for as long as they remain within range. This ability
    is usable a number of times per day as given on the
    table. Each use lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the
    ravagers Charisma modifier. The range of this aura increases
    at 5th level to 20 feet, and then again at 8th level to 30 feet.
    Cruelest Cut (Ex): When a ravager reaches 3rd level, his
    familiarity with pain and fear grant him a cruel precision
    with his melee attacks. The character must declare he is
    making a cruelest cut attempt before he makes a melee attack
    (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). If he strikes successfully, he deals ld4 points of Constitution damage to
    the target, in addition to any other damage the attack may
    cause. A ravager can use cruelest cut once per day for every
    three levels he has attained, but may only make one cruelest
    cut attempt per round.
    Visage of Terror (Sp): A 10th-level ravager has plumbed
    the true depths of horror and hopelessness. Once per day,
    he can trigger a spell-like ability similar to the arcane spell
    phantasmal killer (save DC 10 + the ravager’s class level + the
    ravager’s Cha bonus) as a standard action. To the foe the
    ravager selects, he seems to take on the visage of what the
    target fears most. In all other respects, this ability functions
    as the spell described in the Player’s Handbook.
    Sample Ravager
    Narrik Weepingscar: Half-orc barbarian 5/ravager 6;
    CR 11; Medium humanoid; HD 5d12+10 plus 6d10+12; hp
    88) Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 18; Base
    Atk +11; Grp +15; Atk +17 melee (1d8+5/×3, +1 battleaxe)
    or +12 ranged (1d8+4/×3, masterwork composite longbow
    [+4 Str bonus]); Full Atk +17/+12/+7 melee (1d8+5/×3, +1
    battleaxe), or +13/+8/+3 melee (1d8+5/×3, +1 battleaxe) and
    +13 melee (1d8+3/×3, +1 battleaxe), or +12/+7/+2 ranged
    (1d8+4/×3, masterwork composite longbow [+4 Str bonus]);
    SA cruelest cut 2/day, pain touch 2/day; SQ aura of fear 2/
    day, darkvision 60 ft., improved uncanny dodge, rage 2/day,
    trap sense +1, uncanny dodge; AL CE; SV Fort +11, Ref +5,
    Will +3; Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10.
    Skills and Feats: Intimidate +14, Jump +13, Knowledge
    (religion) +4, Ride +8, Survival +8; Improved Sunder, Power
    Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (battleaxe).
    Cruelest Cut (Ex): If Narrik declares he is using cruelest
    cut before making an attack, and the attack strikes success-
    fully, he deals an extra 1d4 points of temporary Constitution
    damage.
    Pain Touch (Su): Narrik’s melee touch attack deals
    1d8+6 points of damage. He can also use pain touch through
    a melee weapon, dealing 1d4+6 points of damage.
    Aura of Fear (Su): Enemies within 20 feet of Narrik take
    a –2 morale penalty on saving throws as long as they remain
    within range. The effect lasts for 3 rounds each time Narrik
    uses this ability.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Narrik cannot be
    flanked except by a rogue of at least 9th level.
    Rage (Ex): +4 to Str, +4 to Con, +2 on Will saves, –2 to AC
    for up to 7 rounds.
    Trap Sense (Ex): Against attacks by traps, Narrik gets a
    +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to Armor
    Class.
    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Narrik can react to danger before
    his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his
    Dexterity bonus to AC even when caught flat-footed.
    Possessions: Two +1 battleaxes, +1 breastplate, gem of brightness,
    cloak of resistance +1, masterwork composite longbow (+4 Str
    bonus), 20 arrows, heavy warhorse.



    RAVAGER RITES

    Individual ravagers are often perceived as dangerous loners
    but, in actuality, each belongs to a tight-knit warband. The
    initiation of a potential ravager into a warband (and into the
    prestige class) is brutally violent.
    When a prospective member approaches a warband and
    makes his intention to join known, the ravagers’ standard tactic
    involves attacking him en masse. The warband’s lowest-ranked
    members (usually anywhere between six to sixteen warriors,
    rogues, or fighters with individual levels between 2nd and 6th)
    come out first and try their best to kill the newcomer. Should
    the newcomer survive an arbitrary period of time (usually
    between 3 and 10 rounds, depending on how well the new-
    comer appears to be fighting and the cruelty or interest of the
    warband’s leader), he is allowed to join the warband.
    Should the newcomer actually want to progress in the
    ravager prestige class, he must undergo a second rite: the fire
    sacrifice. The candidate waits on his knees, praying to Erythnul
    (or a similar deity) to fill his heart with hate and malice. Other
    members of the warband acquire a suitable sacrificial victim
    (preferably human, but in a pinch any humanoid will do). The
    would-be ravager must sacrifice the victim in accordance with
    the unholy rites of the deity, which always involve bloodletting
    followed by burning the sacrifice alive. Following this cruel and
    horrific act, the warband applies a distinctively repulsive set of
    tattoos to the applicant’s face that forever marks him as a true
    ravager. Once the ceremony is complete, the only way to leave
    the warband is to die.



    And one more:

    From Complete Champion p. 27 ~

    Quote:
    ERYTHNUL: THE TEMPLE OF CARNAGE

    Because its patron revels in absolute slaughter, the Church
    of Erythnul has the fewest non-evil members of all the
    dark faiths. No civilized land wants a sect of mass mur-
    derers nearby. Most followers of Erythnul kill without
    thinking, believing that each soul they release from its
    mortal coil fuels the power of their deity. Many are also
    utterly insane.
    The Temple of Carnage’s few non-evil members are cha-
    otic neutral. These individuals see the practicality of leaving
    no foe standing. They might take prisoners if doing so serves
    some purpose, but they never leave survivors for long. They
    take great joy in battle, but they believe that slaughter should
    come only to those who invite it. In fact, they are convinced
    that releasing the souls of noncombatants actually angers
    the deity. From their point of view, those who do not live
    by the sword are beneath notice and therefore unworthy
    of destruction.





    Last edited by DrassustheGaunt on Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:34 pm  

    Drassus,

    Nice way to point us in the right direction. Some of us don't have those books but these excerpts help those of us looking to expand on James thread.

    Later

    Argon
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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:36 pm  

    And if you need mood music, this should work flawlessly...


    http://youtu.be/qYPRyd9chlo



    Motörhead - Killers

    ... from the album Inferno
    Lyrics
    The order is for murder
    And we've been there before
    The men in black are coming back
    To Serve the killing Floor

    No pity, No surrender
    We take no prisoners
    We spare no brave defender
    No mercy, No quarter here

    The Killers
    Will show you flame and sword
    We are The Killers
    Enough to make your backbone shake
    The Killers
    Enough to make your stupid faces quiver
    And The Killers long to take your life

    The sun beats down like thunder
    We ride to meet the foe
    The clash of steel and leather
    The only song we know

    No pardon, No Quarter
    We own to no compassion
    We glory in the slaughter
    No mercy, We fetch you death

    The Killers
    We are the ones foretold
    We are The Killers
    We do not yearn for gold
    We are The Killers
    We know the wrath of battle
    We are The Killers
    And The Killers will destroy your life

    The devil rides to glory
    We hasten by his side
    A legendary story
    Told by fireside

    No mercy, Let all hope fade
    We glory in the slaughter
    Our badge the Ace of Spades
    No mercy, We bring the sword

    The Killers
    We murder you in battle
    We are Killers
    We ride you down like cattle
    We are Killers
    We fight our way to legend
    We are Killers
    And The Killers love to see you die

    Killers
    We kill you till you die
    We are The Killers
    We hold our banners high
    We are The Killers
    We hang you out to die
    We are The Killers
    And all we bring is death to life
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:40 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    Drassus,

    Nice way to point us in the right direction. Some of us don't have those books but these excerpts help those of us looking to expand on James thread.


    N/P

    Glad to help.

    We're here for one another.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:55 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Well-cited, Sergio! Es bien, senior! Muchas gracias para la informaccion de libro Iuz. (Is that correct? My Spanish is rusty even though I try to use in class...)


    Lol! He's from Brazil. They speak Portuguese, don't they? Razz

    SirXaris


    -There is a poster from Portuguese-speaking Brazil here, but I forget his name (I haven't seen him in a while), but I'd know his name if I saw it. He uses a beholder icon.

    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...Rereading about Ravagers now, and thinking about them in relation to placing them in the Pomarj or Bonemarch, they put me in mind of the Norse berserker bands, especially where they're represented in more of a negative light...


    -Now that you bring it up, there is a I think there is a reference to Barbarian Erythnul-worshippers in one of the Cold states, along with Kord and Llerg. I want to say it was in the LGG. It struck me as odd that they'd be worshipping an Oeridian God, but I decided why not. No need to be close-minded- it's not like they're the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Anything on Ravagers for Greyhawk, other than the mention in the D&D 3.0 Sword & Fist supplement?


    Here's a few for you:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=523

    From Complete Warrior, p.73

    And one more:

    From Complete Champion p. 27


    -I should have posted "or Complete Warrior" (which I have) Embarassed . But I don't have Complete Champion. Thanks.

    Quote:
    ERYTHNUL: THE TEMPLE OF CARNAGE

    Because its patron revels in absolute slaughter, the Church
    of Erythnul has the fewest non-evil members of all the
    dark faiths. No civilized land wants a sect of mass mur-
    derers nearby. Most followers of Erythnul kill without
    thinking, believing that each soul they release from its
    mortal coil fuels the power of their deity. Many are also
    utterly insane.
    The Temple of Carnage’s few non-evil members are cha-
    otic neutral. These individuals see the practicality of leaving
    no foe standing. They might take prisoners if doing so serves
    some purpose, but they never leave survivors for long. They
    take great joy in battle, but they believe that slaughter should
    come only to those who invite it. In fact, they are convinced
    that releasing the souls of noncombatants actually angers
    the deity. From their point of view, those who do not live
    by the sword are beneath notice and therefore unworthy
    of destruction.

    ▲[/quote]

    - Erythnul has more non-evils than dark faiths like Nerull's or Incabulous'? Really? Or does "dark faith" refer to something specific in Complete Champion?

    On another thread, someone mentioned that at some point, Heironeous and Hextor took over the War God porfolio from Erythnul. Makes you wonder what the Oeridians were like before then. Or did Erythnul just get nastier when he lost his portfolio? Razz

    DrassustheGaunt wrote:
    And if you need mood music, this should work flawlessly...


    -Or The Immigrant Song... "Erythnul! We are Coming!" Evil Grin

    Of course, it would fit for any of the Cold staters, too.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:49 am  

    The LGG notes that Erythnul possibly predates Hextor as a more undisciplined Power and he lost some power and worshippers when his LE counterpart arose. However, as I mentioned earlier, Bastion of Faith cites Hextor as allying with Erythnul, I imagine against Hieroneous and any other common enemies.

    The former Hold of Stonefist, now referred to as Stonehold (in LGG), cites Erythnul as the chief patron Power. He is not cited as a worshipped Power whatsoever in any of the three Barbarian states.

    From the Ashes (pg 87 in the Atlas booklet) includes the following information about the worship of Erythnul: "Humanoids of the Bone March and the Pomarj include many devotees of Erythnul, as do evilly-inclined bands of bandits and brigands around the Flanaess."

    This was one of the chief reasons why I swapped out the Earth Dragon (see other thread of the same name) in preference of Erythnul for the major Power behind the SlaveLords.

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:36 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    On another thread, someone mentioned that at some point, Heironeous and Hextor took over the War God porfolio from Erythnul. Makes you wonder what the Oeridians were like before then. Or did Erythnul just get nastier when he lost his portfolio? Razz


    That was me. The LGG hints at it and in Sean K. Reynold's Core Beliefs: Hextor article in DRG #356 it's explicitly stated - "In more primitive days Erythnul was the war god of the Oeridian pantheon, representing all kinds of large scale battles." This is cited as why they are such intense rivals. As Lanthorn said, Bastion of Faith places them as sometimes allies. Basically, you can choose which view you want to believe or figure out some middle ground. As Mystic-Scholar likes to say (I may be paraphrasing) all works in your campaign! Smile

    There are some canon indications that Erythnul was worshiped openly at least as recently as the Battle of Chokestone. That's in Ivid the Undying if I'm remembering right, but I ain't gonna swear to it. As far as when he was the big war god, I like to think the switch from him to the War Brothers happened sometime when the Oeridians were migrating east, probably during their time in Ull. As they became more civilized Heironeous and Hextor became the better choice for them. That's my theory at least.
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    Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:58 pm  

    Erythnul works great for the humanoids of the Pomarj, but I think poorly for the Slave Lords themselves - who, after all, are all about keeping their foes alive (so they can be enslaved) rather than slaughtering them senselessly as Erythnul would encourage them to do. But then, I think Slavers went too far in trying to make the Slave Lords the secret rulers of the Pomarj, rather than just one faction there. There's no need for the humanoid tribes to have the same religion as the slavers, even if you decide Turrosh Mak is one of them. There's plenty of room for multiple religions on the peninsula.

    Erythnul isn't the worst choice of Slave Lord patrons (the very worst choice would be Trithereon), but I think if Erythnul were their patron they would just slaughter their prisoners rather than enslaving them. People would have to call them the Slaughter Lords instead. It's probably not impossible to imagine Erythnul-worshipers keeping some slaves alive, but that's really more Hextor's thing.

    I mean, obviously you should do what works for you, but it doesn't seem like the best choice to me. I thought Tiamat would be a pretty cool secret force behind the Earth Dragon, mostly because she's barely used anywhere else in the Greyhawk setting.

    I decided Erythnul was the special patron of Carashast's tribe, the Oeridians who came to the Greyhawk region during the Migrations era and massacred everyone, including each other, leaving Bad Deep as a tainted wound in the spiritual fabric of the world. I thought they might have looted the ruins of Vecna's tower on the way there, and enscribed the Erythnulite passages in his copy of the Book of Vile Darkness.

    There's a very unofficial myth on the Wizards of the Coast website that has Erythnul actually arranging for Heironeous's ascension to divinity as a counter to Hextor, who had been growing too powerful for Erythnul's liking.

    Quote:
    Erythnul's legions had recently endured heavy losses from the forces of Hextor, a newly arisen demigod whose carefully laid betrayals and plans had brought him disturbingly quick to the forefront of the pantheon. Erythnul saw no greater way to check Hextor's progress against his territory than to see that his hated brother, the aasimar paladin Heironeous, ascend to godhood as well.

    Accordingly, Erythnul sent a vision to Heironeous of the Hrua's souls calling for the paladin's aid, whereupon the paladin traveled to the Amedio jungle and sought out Lakshesherek. The battle raged back and forth for three days, and in the end Heironeous impaled the mad demon against his own statue, whereupon the thinaun within trapped his soul, preventing it from returning to the lower planes. Heironeous then shattered the gemstones upon the altar, freeing the souls of the Hrua tribe—and thus earning the gratitude of their ancient gods, who collectively blessed his ascension into godhood in thanks for his valorous act.
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:35 am  
    Motorhead!

    Inferno is a great album by Motorhead as most of the later albums by them have been. Mickey Dee and Phil Cambell have been with Lemmy for longer than the "orginial" guys were by like a decade. When I try to play guitar and drums, it's like those guys. When I try to sing lead, I pretend I'm Lemmy. When I play bass, I sure don't approach it like Lemmy does! :)
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:13 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...However, as I mentioned earlier, Bastion of Faith cites Hextor as allying with Erythnul, I imagine against Hieroneous and any other common enemies.

    The former Hold of Stonefist, now referred to as Stonehold (in LGG), cites Erythnul as the chief patron Power. He is not cited as a worshipped Power whatsoever in any of the three Barbarian states...


    -When I went home last night, I checked. I might have been thinking about p. 105 of the LGG (Snow Barbarians) where it says Vatun's beserkers prefer the shortspear and broadsword and Kord's prefer the battle axe. It rings a bell in my thinking, but of course Vatun is not Kord. I remember reading something that said "such-and-such" worshipped Erythnul, and thinking that it was odd that "such-and-such" would be worshipping an Oeridian god. All of this basically translates as "I have no idea what I was thinking."


    rasgon wrote:
    Erythnul works great for the humanoids of the Pomarj, but I think poorly for the Slave Lords themselves - who, after all, are all about keeping their foes alive (so they can be enslaved) rather than slaughtering them senselessly as Erythnul would encourage them to do. But then, I think Slavers went too far in trying to make the Slave Lords the secret rulers of the Pomarj, rather than just one faction there. There's no need for the humanoid tribes to have the same religion as the slavers, even if you decide Turrosh Mak is one of them...
    [/quote]

    -It's sort of hard for a secret organization to openly force others to adopt their secret religion and still keep it a secret... Laughing


    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...I like to think the switch from him to the War Brothers happened sometime when the Oeridians were migrating east, probably during their time in Ull. As they became more civilized Heironeous and Hextor became the better choice for them. That's my theory at least.


    ...and...

    rasgon wrote:
    ...I decided Erythnul was the special patron of Carashast's tribe, the Oeridians who came to the Greyhawk region during the Migrations era and massacred everyone, including each other, leaving Bad Deep as a tainted wound in the spiritual fabric of the world. I thought they might have looted the ruins of Vecna's tower on the way there, and enscribed the Erythnulite passages in his copy of the Book of Vile Darkness...


    -I was thinking sometime between moving east and becoming settled, too. The transition might have taken a while to sink in, although a portfolio change is like a snap of the fingers. Of course, Carahast's choice of Erythnul might have been an outlier, not caring that he wasn't the official Oeridian War God anymore, as some in much later periods do.


    Is there anything on how Erythnul went from Oeridian god to Oeridian and Humanoid god? That's a good bit of proselytizing! Beltar made a similar transition, and Jascar and Fortubo did a similar thing with Dwarves (Fortubo has essentially virtually gnored the Suel for centuries or millenia).
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:16 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Well-cited, Sergio! Es bien, senior! Muchas gracias para la informaccion de libro Iuz. (Is that correct? My Spanish is rusty even though I try to use in class...)


    Lol! He's from Brazil. They speak Portuguese, don't they? Razz

    SirXaris


    -It's Rossik who's from Brazil, I think.

    That was nagging at me. Laughing
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:21 pm  
    Re: Motorhead!

    Raymond wrote:
    Inferno is a great album by Motorhead as most of the later albums by them have been. Mickey Dee and Phil Cambell have been with Lemmy for longer than the "original" guys were by like a decade. When I try to play guitar and drums, it's like those guys. When I try to sing lead, I pretend I'm Lemmy. When I play bass, I sure don't approach it like Lemmy does! :)


    I think it's one of there top three albums (in no particular order):

    1} 1916
    2} March or Die
    3} Inferno

    I'm a huge fan, no doubt.

    And it's cool you play so many instruments - I do, too.

    We'll have to chat sometime in the Backalley
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:03 pm  

    With respect to honorable Rasgon's posting:

    Your argument that Erythnul-worshippers would most likely slaughter and kill rather than enslave is perhaps the best counterpoint offered against using this Power as the religious support base. Perhaps Hextor is a better choice given the modus operandi of the Lords of Nine. My stance not using Hextor (a top contender when I opted to nix the Earth Dragon as Mordrommo's patron <Demi>Power) was couched earlier in that I didn't want to have another geographic power base dedicated to Him. To me, choosing Nerull would clearly lean towards your remark about killing and murdering instead of enslaving. I didn't know much about any of the other Powers listed, and surely didn't have any resource material outlining the doctrines, powers, abilities, and other information necessary for outlining a priesthood. Erythnul's portfolio, his ties to humanoid followers, the doctrine of pure and unmitigated Evil, and the regional placement of the SlaveLords all led me to conclude that Erythnul was the best choice if I was going to remove the Earth Dragon entirely (which, I did, as heretical as that notion may pose).

    Nonetheless, I want you to know that I wholly respect your input and perspective, Rasgon. Your prolific writings and articulate arguments speak for themselves.

    humbly,

    -Lanthorn
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:29 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Is there anything on how Erythnul went from Oeridian god to Oeridian and Humanoid god? That's a good bit of proselytizing! Beltar made a similar transition, and Jascar and Fortubo did a similar thing with Dwarves (Fortubo has essentially virtually gnored the Suel for centuries or millenia).


    I've considered the idea that Erythnul might have actually fathered all of the other humanoid gods. At least the chaotic ones. Or they might have sprung up from his blood.

    He could be Hextor's father, too.
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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:54 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I've considered the idea that Erythnul might have actually fathered all of the other humanoid gods. At least the chaotic ones. Or they might have sprung up from his blood.


    Thanks for this as it makes me want to write a legend (True or not is irrelevant) passed among the humanoids of the Pomarj telling of how Erythnul wrought suffering and death upon the demi-/humans of the area. And how each wound they gave him merely enraged him further, thus siring his brood of savage warriors.
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    Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:52 pm  

    Erythnul as a father god not only of various humanoid gods (at least those four kinds that spring from his blood) but also of Hextor sounds productive.

    To me it suggests that the Many outdates his Oeridian veneration. It also makes me wonder about the father of Heironeous. What do you think about Fharlanghn, Kurell or Procan?
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    Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:31 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Erythnul as a father god not only of various humanoid gods (at least those four kinds that spring from his blood) but also of Hextor sounds productive...


    -Erythnul may have started as a general humanoid god, then was accepted by the Oeridians, before they thought better of it and went to Hextor/Heironeous?
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    Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:23 pm  

    It's interesting.

    With the pre-Migrations Oeridians being semi-nomadic but likely subject to the Ancient Bakluni, and in light of our old conversations about the jebline and hoch-jebline deriving from chaotic hordes of bakemono, I would imagine old Oeridian propitiation of Erythnul relatively rare but somehow related to that of competing (or was it collaborating?) bugbears, gnolls, ogres and trolls.

    I just read a bit about Stratis online; was he really four-armed in the 3e Chainmail? I had imagined him as a LN complement to Hextor and Heironeous and older, given his use of the spear, but the four-armed thing seems weird, or dumb.

    So even if one chose to use a Stratis (which seems unnecessary), Erythnul seems a better candidate for the preeminent old Oeridian war god.
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    Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:55 pm  

    MTG,

    Hextor, Heironious and Stratis are brothers. Stratis is the CN war god while Heironious and Hextor both serve the law on opposite sides. Supposedly he was slain by a collaboration of heros from different races. One of which was an ogre.

    Stratis warned them that slaying him was the worse thing they could have done as war will continue until someone takes up his four weapons and becomes the new god of war. So in Western Oerik Heironious and Hextor do not hold as much sway as Stratis did.

    Later

    Argon


    Last edited by Argon on Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:44 am  

    Thanks Argon. Besides Rich's old Forgotten Gods of the Suloise VI regarding "Gorm," http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=114, has anyone else here worked with Stratis?

    I think I understand why WotC made Stratis CN, given their need for a catalyst of war, but it's not persuasive in light of his brothers and (more importantly) mother.

    I agree with Rich's LN decision and like his idea that duelists favor Gorm/Stratis, but it seems like the floor is open to play with this god. Hmm ...
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    Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:57 am  

    mtg wrote:
    ...I think I understand why WotC made Stratis CN, given their need for a catalyst of war, but it's not persuasive in light of his brothers and (more importantly) mother...


    -Just one rebel child, from a family lawful and not so mild? Razz
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    Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:30 am  

    Nice rhyme. Happy

    Maybe Stratis was "originally" LN and then corrupted to CN by a four-armed demonic source? I have a few ideas bouncing around, including Rasgon's recent riff on the Torhoon, times Drassus's girallon, times an old idea that Stratis was the eldest brother and primarily about hunting and subsistence -- perhaps until he found / came across / went awry with a demonic encounter that left him four-armed, and which somehow interacted with (spurred) Hextor's deal with the Lords of Evil (Nerull, Incabulous and [insert evil greater god/dess here])?

    I dunno but will kick it around some more and then make some time to write it up.
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    Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:25 pm  

    In western Oerik, Stratis is the god of war Hextor and Heironeous are not even mentioned in the chainmail setting. However Nerull name is passed around. I take some issue with this because the oerids only contact with the flan were in the flanaess. How did a prominently flan deity find its wide spread use in western oerik prior to the migrations.

    I see that the oerid never really had a god of the dead. So many oerids see death as unnatural and something brought upon humanity by demonic influences. I was thinking that Orcus would get a large amount of lip service in western oerik. Perhaps the hero who retrieves all 4 weapons takes Stratis portfolio and the oerid have their first god of the dead.

    Stratis having died by mortal hands is made whole again. His expousure to mortality has changed Stratis. He is now the god of fallen warrior, hero's and villian's alike are beloved by Stratis as they both fill his halls with souls to serve Stratis and or be judged by Stratis.

    Later

    Argon


    Last edited by Argon on Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:17 am  

    Because it's 3e-era canon that the Oeridians worshiped Pelor under the name Sol, I think it's plausible that they recognized Nerull under the name Null (or another name, but that's the one I came up with).

    The greater gods of major natural forces, listed as Common deities as well as Flan, might well be worshiped by different cultures under alternate names. If you think they're a major part of the world of Oerth, it seems unlikely that there was a time when only the Flan knew they existed. The Baklunish had their own name for Pelor too (Al'Asran). From the Ashes notes that Beory is a universal Oerth Mother known by different names in many different cultures. I think the Suel probably worshiped no gods but their own, since their pantheon is pretty complete in itself; this may be evidence that the Suel culture originated somewhere other than Oerth.

    I also think of Celestian as a psychopomp figure, escorting souls through the Astral Plane. Note that Celestian is known in Western Oerik as well; Dragon #294 describes a mythical meteorite somewhere in Western Oerik, known as Celestian's Gift.

    Stratis was raised to adulthood in Ysgard/Gladsheim, so it's likely he was always chaotic neutral. Because of his neutral alignment, I'd be more inclined to connect him to neutral forces like the slaadi than to the lords of the Abyss. I could see him bargaining with Ssendam and Ygorl, who warp his body chaotically so that he can compete with his brothers.

    Check out the wiki article on Stratis here for a few official myths about him.

    I think of the Lords of Evil as synonymous with the Lords of the Nine, the archdevils of the Nine Hells. I like the idea that Hextor made his deal with them, becoming the Herald of Hell in exchange for his new arms. The idea was Tal Meta's originally.
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    Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:28 pm  

    Rasgon,

    Thanks for the input. I have no problem with using an Oeridian version of Nerull. Null can work easily, and Mort will love the Ull association with the name. I do however, have an issue with using Nerull as Nerull in the West as it would mean the flan had influence in that region before the migrations. My reasoning for using Orcus is to show how oerids were influenced by demons prior to their arrival in the flanaess. It would IMO match with the history behind the mask of Johydee as well.

    Then it would seem that amongst the four main human races that the Suel and Baklunish were least influenced by demonic influence. This is not to say that it does not exist. Just that such worship was not as abnormal as most would assume now.

    Later

    Argon
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    Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:56 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    I do however, have an issue with using Nerull as Nerull in the West as it would mean the flan had influence in that region before the migrations.


    Only if you assume the Flan were the first people to learn that Nerull existed, and that the only way for other peoples to learn of him was through the Flan. I don't necessarily think that's the case.
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    Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Argon wrote:
    I do however, have an issue with using Nerull as Nerull in the West as it would mean the flan had influence in that region before the migrations.


    Only if you assume the Flan were the first people to learn that Nerull existed, and that the only way for other peoples to learn of him was through the Flan. I don't necessarily think that's the case.


    My take on religion is not the discovery of a god but what each culture names their gods. So Istus is the goddess of fate for the baklunish and Lendor is the god of time for the suel. I have them being the same god taking on slightly different portfolios and genders with each culture. Now no mortal knows the difference thinking of them as separate entities of different pantheons. That is the issue I have with using Nerull the name for a god of the dead by oerid's as its the name the flan gave him. Since neither of them speak the same dialect (excluding common which is todays common in the flanaess) why would they both refer to him with the same name.

    The baklunish call Incabulos, Sevelkar the waster yet the two churches are separate. So same deity different name, and neither is considered the same deity by the mortal races.

    That's how I perceive them. Now if, there is one pantheon, and Nerull was a discovered power, as opposed to being named by different cultures, with different languages, and belief's, then one unified name would make sense to me.

    Later

    Argon
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:19 am  

    Ah, well, they might well call him something different in Western Oerik. Just think of "Nerull" as DM shorthand for whatever he's really called there.

    Note that the most prominent worshiper of Nerull in Western Oerik, Ahmut, belongs to the Baklien people rather than the Oeridians, though he seems to have assumed control of a largely Oeridian-descended cult.
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:39 pm  
    Stratis' Lawful alignment?

    This is an interesting discussion, though I am joining it a bit late.
    Stratis is one of my favorite deities. I love the aspects of Heironeous, Stratis and Hextor being 2-armed, 4-armed, and six-armed. I have used him a fair bit in homebrew stuff, and there was an adventure written in the LG-era just as the campaign was ending that involved him.

    Nevertheless ... I find it interesting that you guys are discussing him as being Chaotic. I have always figured that since both of his brothers, and his mother were all lawful, that he would be as well. <shrug> Well, I guess it's just an assumption on my part, but, I think that it fits the theme of the "family" a lot better for them all to be LG, LN, LE.

    [Edit: Now that I think of it ... Stratis sponsors paladins. In 3rd Edition, the way that gods grant paladins is to have paladin abillities themselves. I can't really imagine a Chaotic deity sponsering a Lawful paladin.]
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    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:08 pm  

    Icarus wrote:
    ... I find it interesting that you guys are discussing him as being Chaotic. I have always figured that since both of his brothers, and his mother were all lawful, that he would be as well. <shrug> Well, I guess it's just an assumption on my part, but, I think that it fits the theme of the "family" a lot better for them all to be LG, LN, LE.


    ...we're back to Merle Haggard. Laughing

    Maybe someone's interests (or requirements) were so war/military related that their alignments are of a secondary importance?

    With Heironeous, you cover LG, NG, and (lightly) LN soldiers.

    With Hextor, you cover LE, NE, and (lightly) LN soldiers.

    Between the two, LN is fully covered.

    Stratis (who I'm really not familiar with) is CN, so probably is the patron of the CN, CG, CE and N alignments.

    Full military coverage!

    Now, whether the "needs" and "interests" were of the gods, or the game designers, is a separate question...

    I'm off to check up on Stratis...
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:19 pm  

    Ok, I forgot that you guys mentioned that he was dead:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greyhawk_deities

    ...but when he was created, that may have been the intent. Again, whether created by gods or game designers is a separate question.

    I wonder if this is a coincidence:

    http://www.l-3stratis.com/
    Question
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:09 pm  
    Stratis' alignment

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Stratis (who I'm really not familiar with) is CN, so probably is the patron of the CN, CG, CE and N alignments.

    Full military coverage!

    Well, you definately make a good point for full coverage of alignments.
    As far as "Stratis is CN" ... that's basically up for debate ... he's only ever referred to as the "nuetral" God of War. In all the literature that I have that regards him even tangentially, there's no specific mention of an alignment other than that ... it could essentially be discussed either way.
    As I said above, personally, I think of him as Lawful, mostly because of his family, and in light of my military service, I tend to think of war gods/army gods as Lawful. There are certainly "battle" gods that revel in the chaos of combat, but, there's nuances to be read either way.

    Interestingly, while he certainly died (an event which kicked off the God War in Western Oerik), the LG adventure that I mentioned above brings a new incarnation of him back ... sort of an avatar or somesuch that bears Stratis' divine power.
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:25 pm  

    You fellas have mentioned the three brothers as covering all alignments with respect to being gods of war. My question is, are you refering to Sueloise gods only? Because I think that Vatun and Kord are both Chaotic and Kelanan is True Neutral. Do they not count in this discussion because they are of a different pantheon?

    SirXaris
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    Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:54 pm  

    Sir Xaris,

    This is a oeridian god discussion. Though you may bring the suel pantheon into the fold if you like.

    The chainmail setting did not account for previous history on the greyhawk setting. The blackmoon chronicles could cast a clearer light on the western oerik subject.

    Later

    Argon
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    Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:47 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    You fellas have mentioned the three brothers as covering all alignments with respect to being gods of war. My question is, are you refering to Sueloise gods only? Because I think that Vatun and Kord are both Chaotic and Kelanan is True Neutral. Do they not count in this discussion because they are of a different pantheon?
    Well, um ... frankly SirXaris ... I didn't mention them because I had sort of simply disregarded them. I hadn't thought of bringing them into the conversation.
    Not to be contrary toward Argon, but, I don't think that the discussion is necessarily Oeridian in topic. I was discussing "Gods of War". (Though I realize, I s'pose that the conversation began with Erythunul.)

    Though the deities that you mention certainly are martial gods, I don't think that I would describe them as "Gods of War". While Kelanen does at least grant access to the war domain, the other two you mention, don't. They are both gods of Strength, perhaps, though I would refer to Vatun as "God of the North". If you'd mentioned Mayaheine, perhaps, I would agree a bit more. While it is true Erythnul also has the war domain (as do others) ... Hextor and Heironeous are the two that actually have "War" in their portfolio, not just their domains.
    Thus, their brother - Stratis - in the discussion. ... and why I, for one, hadn't thought of mentioning others.
    Of course, I'm mostly just here because I saw something about Stratis, and leaped on it, because I love the Sundered Empire setting of Western Oerik, and all things Stratis.
    Laughing Smile Laughing
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    Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:32 am  
    Re: Stratis' Lawful alignment?

    I'd always assumed that Stratis was lawful, too, until I noticed that he was associated with the plane of Ysgard.

    But the existence of a human paladin of Stratis probably proves he's lawful.
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    Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:21 am  
    Re: Stratis' Lawful alignment?

    Argon wrote:
    This is a oeridian god discussion. Though you may bring the suel pantheon into the fold if you like.


    Yes, Oeridian. rolleyes Thanks for fixing that for me, Argon. It was late. I was tired...

    rasgon wrote:
    But the existence of a human paladin of Stratis probably proves he's lawful.


    That is, assuming those who created that NPC failed to consider his full history. Wink

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    Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:12 pm  
    Re: Stratis' Lawful alignment?

    rasgon wrote:
    I'd always assumed that Stratis was lawful, too, until I noticed that he was associated with the plane of Ysgard.
    But the existence of a human paladin of Stratis probably proves he's lawful.
    Rasgon ... that's precisely the fella that was referring to upthread. Happy I kind of figure it the same way you did. :)
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    Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:49 pm  

    Well back in 2e in the legend and lore book Egyptian pantheon Horus had CG paladins of vengeance. The plane Stratis was associated with is chaotic though this does not mean he must strictly follow the planes alignment it also does not mean he follows a lawful aspect because he has paladins. He is known as the god of just and unjust war so chaotic or true neutrality seems more likely. Though he was slain by various races of mortal hero's, steers me in the chaotic direction. Though I am not one to strictly define a gods alignment as many cultures in western oerik must have seen Stratis as an evil upon there cultures if so many of them were willing to sacrifice themselves for peace. This could of been the perception of those involved as opposed how Stratis actually behaved. One of the myths of Stratis was that he rode with the Balkien horsemen when they marched against Ravilla.

    Poor Erythnul lost his war portfolio and now Stratis has hijacked his thread. Now you know why Erythnul added humanoids into the fold as potential worshipers.

    Later

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    Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:03 pm  

    Interesting developments!

    Before reading the latest posts, I had planned only to ask what Stern Alia was doing with a fortress on Ysgard, as the Greywiki entry on Stratis indicates that he was raised by her therein (along with his siblings? or does this indicate Stratis is the youngest brother?).

    To me this sounds nonsensical, as we know her alignment clearly to be LN, but then I started imagining her being held hostage by some Ysgardian power ... or maybe she took up with a CN/CG lover (a possible father of these deific brothers)?

    However, the recent posts and link about the human paladin of Stratis beckon more commentary. Below are some thoughts and links regarding the various alternate or variant "paladin" character classes across the editions. The take-away point for me is that Chainmail's "Human Paladin of Stratis" might not be definitive about Stratis's alignment. I don't know the particular dates, but it seems likely, or at least possible, that Chainmail designers didn't feel constrained to indicate LG alignment by the term "paladin." See below.
    Quote:

    Model: Human Paladin of Stratis

    Faction: Thalos

    Why It Rocks: The Human Paladin of Stratis fights without fear and without pity. All the troops in the Paladin’s presence gain a +4 bonus to saves against fear and to morale checks.

    Moving past a too-easy snipe at "why it rocks," the description's "fights without fear and without pity" makes me think of those old Dragon alternate paladins.

    I couldn't recall the name of the LN version, but found a copy here, http://members.tripod.com/Lord_Eadric/paladins/paladins.html, which shows it as "Lyan."

    I also recalled 3e paladin variants and found the "Enforcer," which Dragon 310 evidently featured, http://dndrealmsofadventure.tripod.com/enforcer.htm.

    3.5e evidently featured even more alternatives, including the paladin of justice the paladin of anarchy. (As I've mentioned, almost all my books are in storage across the country, but I think these derive from the 3.5e PHB II or UA -- or possibly Complete Champion). Here's some online information about these and related variants http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Expanded_Variant_Paladins_%283.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature%29.

    Finally, here's someone working up NG and CG versions http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz529x?Alternate-alignment-paladins-from-Dragon-310-the

    In conclusion, although I prefer Stratis to be LN and would be happy to claim the Thalos paladin as proof a la the LN(G) of St. Cuthbert and his paladins, playing with the Chainmail material (rather than just rejecting it) leaves me with lingering questions about Stern Alia stranded, exiled or fled to Ysgard, and trying to raise her latest son.

    She is clearly still "stern," and wishes to keep war outside her fortress, and also to shield her youngest son from war, but it calls in his blood, demanding to be answered, and eventually precipitating his adventure on Muspelheim.

    PS - While I like the idea of slaadi influence granting his second pair of arms, are there any likely suspects of the planes of Ysgard?

    PPS - If Procan were to father Hextor or Heironeous, which would be more likely? How about the other father? Finally, which deific lover (possibly Ysgardian) would be best to result in Stern Alia's exile from a powerful Oeridian god's demesne, or needing to flee from her ostensible home on a LN plane?
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    Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:41 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Below are some thoughts and links regarding the various alternate or variant "paladin" character classes across the editions. The take-away point for me is that Chainmail's "Human Paladin of Stratis" might not be definitive about Stratis's alignment.


    Dragon #310 was published in 2003 and Unearthed Arcana (which included the Paladin of Freedom) was published in 2004. The Chainmail Miniatures game ended production in 2002, replaced the following year with the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures Game. I think it's unlikely that a Chainmail miniature referred to an alternate paladin class.

    Quote:
    PS - While I like the idea of slaadi influence granting his second pair of arms, are there any likely suspects of the planes of Ysgard?


    The Indian god Karttikeya lives in Ysgard, and he has twelve arms. Apart from him... I dunno, maybe the Norse dwarves forged him some artificial ones, in the same way that they forged Sif some new hair.

    Quote:
    PPS - If Procan were to father Hextor or Heironeous, which would be more likely? How about the other father?


    I don't think Procan is likely to be the father of either god, but I think with Hextor being the god of strife and discord, the chaotic and tempestuous Procan might be a better fit for him. I think Velnius works well as the father of Heironeous.

    My preference is Velnius (conceivably Bahamut, or maybe the tome archon Raziel) for Heironeous's father and Erythnul (or conceivably an archdevil) for Hextor's. However, recently I've been toying with turning 4th edition gods into elder gods for the pantheons of Oerth. If that angle is used, Heironeous's father could be Amoth, a god of justice and mercy slain by Orcus, Demogorgon, and the little-known demon lord Rimmon working in concert. Though Rimmon was slain and Demogorgon was partially divided into two by Amoth's defense, Orcus struck the killing blow. Hextor's father could be Tuern, a god of war (slain in 4th edition by Bane, but Hextor himself could have killed him in the Greyhawk setting - with his name surviving as the source of a common name retained in warlike Oeridian families such as the famous Tuerny's).

    Quote:
    Finally, which deific lover (possibly Ysgardian) would be best to result in Stern Alia's exile from a powerful Oeridian god's demesne, or needing to flee from her ostensible home on a LN plane?


    Olidammara lives in Ysgard. That would be a pretty scandalous affair.
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    Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:48 pm  

    I created a thread on Stratis so Erthynul can get his thread back on track.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5136

    The chaos of battle is the sacred charge of the worshippers of Erythnul. In all the myriad forms of terror and suffering that war creates, there is a strange kind of unity. This is part of the reason that Erythnul is called the Many. Battle is a test of merit and strength, and living and dying by the sword is the definition of the good life.

    Later

    Argon
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    Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:49 pm  
    Redirecting the Stratis thread

    Hey there, fellas ... since we seem to have hijacked this thread, why don't we head over to the thread about Stratis that Argon started.
    We'll be nice and let Erythnul have his domain back now!

    [Edit: Seriously?!! I got ninja'd by less than a minute!!!! Darned quick and nimble kids these days!]


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    Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:03 pm  

    Where were we, before the 'derailment?' Question

    Somewhere, methinks, about the origins or portfolio of Erythnul...

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    Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:50 am  
    Re: Redirecting the Stratis thread

    Icarus wrote:
    Hey there, fellas ... since we seem to have hijacked this thread, why don't we head over to the thread about Stratis that Argon started.
    We'll be nice and let Erythnul have his domain back now!


    ...and...

    Argon wrote:
    I created a thread on Stratis so Erthynul can get his thread back on track.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5136...


    ...sort of ironic, considering that this thread was created to preventing hi-jacking the Earth Dragon thread... Laughing
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    Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:48 pm  

    James,

    See what happens when you hijack a thread it comes back to bite you! Laughing

    So bring on the ravagers!
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    Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:58 am  
    Ravagers and Reavers?!!!

    Argon wrote:
    ... So bring on the ravagers!
    You know, it's rather interesting ... it hadn't even occured to me to discuss the Ravagers here! I know, I know .... I only ever read the first couple of posts when the thread began, and I had forgotten about how the thread started! When I came back to the thread the other day, I just skipped to the third page, and found the discussion of Stratis (which has now been split into another thread).

    But, I guess that I must've had Ravagers on my brain, because I happen to post a similar topic on the Paizo forums, just the other day. So, I'll duplicate a portion of that post here, for interest in discussion. :)

    W. Kristoph Nolen wrote:
    So ... I was just watching "Serenity" and "Firefly" on Hulu, and I got to thinking, and something popped into my head:
    Back in the 3rd Edition days of D&D there was an organization of sorts (and a Prestige Class) called the Ravagers. They were a group of insane, savage people devoted to slaughter, for the sake of brutality, and nothing more, really. They weren't entirely unlike the Reavers of "Firefly".
    So, I guess my point here is how y'all would think of comparing the two, in light of the centuries of tales of raiding mauraders like vikings and whatnot. Also, I'm interested in the similarities and differences in Reapers and Ravagers, if y'all want to discuss them - I'm fairly well-read on the topic, and have watched the series.
    Anyway .... I figured that since there's not much material on the Ravagers, that we might use this as a jumping off point for creating material (or extrapolating it) to have fresh ideas and source material.
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    Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:30 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    ... I'm interested in the similarities and differences in Reapers and Ravagers, if y'all want to discuss them - I'm fairly well-read on the topic, and have watched the series...


    -Strange, I was thinking about the Reavers in Serenity vis a vis the Ravagers a few nights ago, even to the extent of forgetting that they were called Reavers, not Ravagers.

    I've only seen one episode of Firefly (although I hear that's about 10% of the series Razz ), and it didn't include the Reavers, so I might be missing something. But here goes:

    One difference is that the Ravagers seem calculated in their slaughter (i.e. intelligent) while the Reavers seem to be driven by instinct (the happy drugs in the air experiment gone wrong). Not that there isn't some intelligence there (they fly spaceships, after all), but a slight difference in motivation. That might not make a huge difference to their victims, but still...

    Icarus wrote:
    ...in light of the centuries of tales of raiding mauraders like vikings and whatnot...


    -If I had to guess, I'd say the inspiration for the Ravagers would be Norse beserkers, taken to the nth degree. Firefly and Serenity, OTOH, has been described as a Western in Space (a fair description, I think). The Reavers struck me as a Comanche or Apache analogue.

    BTW, both the movie and the episode I saw were good (with a bit a humor), and the team actually works as a long-serving adventuring party of sorts.
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    Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:05 am  

    Returning to Erythnul the Many, I reviewed the thread and thought to weave a few of its threads together, particularly points made by smillan_31, who correctly cited Ivid the Undying for mention of the slaughter at Chokestone, the site "of a great battle between Aerdi men and a small Flan tribe in -171 CY." ItU 49-50.

    His point stimulated my memories of past GreyTalk list, GT chat, and CF discussions regarding how the Old Oeridians benefited greatly from all of their gods in their Great Migrations. In Ivid, Sargent describes this under the headings, "What Made for Greatness?" and "Magic", thusly:
    Quote:
    The martial priesthoods of Heironeous, Hextor, and even Erythnul all had their role in driving on Oeridian armies.

    The Heironeous-Hextor enmity actually drove the armies of different houses of Aerdi to greater struggles and competition for glory.

    ItU 6. Given these points, I suggest keeping Erythnul active amongst the Old Oeridians long beyond their leaving Ull.

    However, obviously Erythnul's worship was eventually eclipsed by the Lawful Oeridian gods of civilization (Aerdy). Thus, by the end of the 7th century CY, we see the Many worshiped primarily at the periphery of the Great Empire at its height (e.g., Vesve Forest, Bone March, Hold of Stonefist), or in its interstices (e.g., the Bandit Kingdoms from whence came the eventual Master of Stonehold), along with places where humanoids predominate (the Pomarj, Bone March again, the lands that became Iuz and the Horned Society).

    Another way to think of Erythnul's worship (following rasgon) is around places where Oeridians, particularly non-Aerdi Oeridians conquered along their eastward drive to the Solnor Ocean.
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    Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:34 pm  

    Firefly was Josh Whedon original script that was rewritten by Hollywood to produce what we know as aliens. So basically The show Firefly and the movie Serenity were closer to his original vision. I think what Whedon was trying to show us was that humanity is often it's own worse enemy.

    The church of Erthynul took upon slaughter more then conquering. What the oeridian's most likely learned quickly that many of the natives of the flanaess would be needed to maintain what they took. Therefore the oeridian's would rely more on the churches of Hextor and Heironeaous to subjugate the natives on their empire spanning nation.

    Now for the reaver's. My take is the drug caused the people infected to revert back to their most primal state. Note many people on the infected planet where killed by other members of the society who were exposed to the same gas. Besides the reavers worked in cohesion and often left one person alive any vessel they raided. They would often convert this person to their way of life making them yet another reaver.

    One can have the ravagers do the same often leaving one or two people alive from a raided village then converting them to the ravager way of life. In the service of Erthynul you are baptized in the pure unadulterated glory of massacre and slaughter, now bathe in the blood that you have shed.

    Later

    Argon
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    Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:34 pm  

    Rasgon,


    Quote:
    I decided Erythnul was the special patron of Carashast's tribe, the Oeridians who came to the Greyhawk region during the Migrations era and massacred everyone, including each other, leaving Bad Deep as a tainted wound in the spiritual fabric of the world. I thought they might have looted the ruins of Vecna's tower on the way there, and enscribed the Erythnulite passages in his copy of the Book of Vile Darkness.



    That's positively brilliant.

    Thank you for it.



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    Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:04 am  

    A little on the role of Ravagers of Erythnul:

    Erythnul always struck me as perhaps a reaction to the significant presence of lawful deities among the Oeridians. In a tightly ruled society people will snap, and the result too often is carnage. Analogies can be found in the origins of the real-world phrase “running amok.” When the rules of Cyndor, Delleb, Pholtus, Heironeous, Zilchus, Hextor, Stern Alia et al., start crushing some members of society, those members can break, and perhaps with the goading of a Ravager of Erythnul, the results are the bloodshed and slaughter Erythnul desires. In orderly societies Ravagers of Erythnul might have a role in helping push people “over the edge” and smuggling them the necessary weapons and magic to get the slaughter started. Ravagers might also be the threat that pushes an entire society over the edge by posing an ever-constant threat that requires all-encompassing control by authorities “for the protection of the state.” Panic is one of Erythnul’s main tools.

    Warfare for Erythnul isn’t necessarily the maneuvering and clashing of armies (which often involve too much discipline), it is terror campaigns, raids and spree-killings. Victory for followers of Erythnul isn’t capturing the hilltop or the flag - victory is the body-count and the body-count is the victory. “The Many” aspect of Erythnul, and his mutable form, might also reflect the fact that such attacks can come from anywhere, even from within.

    Ravagers might play the role of looking for those persons alienated by society, and coordinating and leading them in such conflicts. The Ravagers themselves might not care if the people they led astray and recruited survive the planed attack – there will always be more societal outcasts to hurl into the grinder.
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    Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:01 pm  

    You make some solid points, ABB.

    Hadn't considered them ever "playing a long(er) game".

    Not sure how much I agree/disagree but you've certainly provided good food for thought.
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