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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Lake of Unknown Depths
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    The Lake of Unknown Depths
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    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:10 am  
    The Lake of Unknown Depths

    http://greyhawkery.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-lake-of-unknown-depths.html

    More than you ever needed to know about Greyhawk lakes.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:39 am  

    Interesting information, Mort.

    I'd say that one possible explanation for the extreme depth of the Nyr Dyv is the magical catastrophe that caused the Isles of Woe to sink (The Codex of Infinite Planes). The magic is still pulling at the bottom of the lake, making it deeper every day. The magic has probably slowed down in effect, but still operational. If the magical effect were somehow dispelled, the Isles would slowly rise again and the rest of the Lake of Unknown Depths' floor would do likewise. After all, who says that it was the same depth during the days of the Wizard-Priests of the Isles of Woe.

    This, from the Greyhawk Wiki, seems to support that possibility:
    "In a 900-year-old map now in the Great Library of Greyhawk, the islands are shown in the eastern region of the great lake, appearing to be extensions of the Cairn Hills. If this map is accurate, the size of the Nyr Dyv was smaller in those days. The island upon which Admundfort now sits was much larger, and two islands that do not now exist stood southeast of Scragholme Island. However, there are reasons to doubt the authenticity of this document."

    SirXaris
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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:20 pm  

    I like that explanation! I forgot all about that map (I forget which product it came in, tAB?). Admundfort could only be about 10 miles more in radius however then it becomes a peninsula. This map needs a new looking into methinks.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:33 pm  

    Perhaps the Battle of Pesh occurred on an even greater scale than thought. The various elemental forces were represented, especially if you utilize the Dungeon Magazine Age of Worms references (traces of Ogremoch and Bwimmb's forces are found in the Whispering Cairn/Icosiol's Tomb areas).

    Perhaps excavated as a staging area for elemental water forces? Or the depths the result of the battle's upheavals, in a manner like Rift Canyon.

    Perhaps Rift Canyon was left behind by conflicting elemental earth forces, the leviathan and volcanic activity under White Plume Mountain remnants of conflicting fire forces, and Nyr Dyv the remnants of conflicting water forces. Elemental air forces, being rather ephemeral, left behind only modest traces (or there is an aweful lot of cloud islands up there).

    Just some thoughts
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:03 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    I like that explanation! I forgot all about that map (I forget which product it came in, tAB?).


    Yeah, it was a separate booklet in The Adventure Begins.

    A-Baneful-Backfire wrote:
    Perhaps the Battle of Pesh occurred on an even greater scale than thought.


    Don't forget the Eternal Storm of the Wind Dukes in the Abbor-Alz mountains (From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess, page 37). Its presence made me sure that the Plains of Pesh were the Selintan River plains until Age of Worms and Fiendish Codex I placed them near White Plume Mountain.

    Now my theory is this: the present-day site of the City of Greyhawk was, in the time of the Law-Chaos wars, a neutral city inhabited by refugees from both sides of the war living in peace, built there due to the presence of the Earth Stone beneath what is now Castle Greyhawk. The existence of this city was considered to be such an abomination by the warring powers that a Wind Duke general destroys it with an apocalyptic weapon, and the Eternal Storm was the result, empowered by the nearby Earth Stone to last forever. I can imagine such an apocalypse could have affected the nearby Nyr Dyv as well.

    Here are my notes so far:

    Quote:
    Kerznjath. A lycocith or whatever. Big Boss spyder-fiend, nasty lieutenant marshal warlord in Miska the Wolf-Spider’s armies. A True Believer in Chaos. Chaos is a religion and a way of life for him. But he was full of pride, and a combination of events: being snubbed and treated like disposable trash by an obyrith commander when he wished to pursue an action that would have greatly advanced the cause of Chaos but not increase the personal power of the Queen of Chaos. His commanders dismissed his intellect when he insisted on taking this cause, and that day Kerznjath lost his fervor. In a crucial battle between Law and Chaos, Kerznjath betrayed his Queen. I will show you what Chaos is, he challenged her, you who have forgotten. Chaos is contrary. Chaos cannot be controlled. Chaos does not follow orders. Chaos exists for its own sake, and not for the pride of one. Chaos delights in all destruction., even its own. His troops turned on the main host of Chaos, and Law won the day. Kerznjath and his rebels fled, the hordes of Chaos at their heels, no longer safe on either side.

    The story, I think, is that Kerznjath was in charge of the siege of the City of Brass. Mishka himself told him the invasion was cancelled, because the efreet had become allies of Chaos. Hated creatures of Law, they bring order to all they touch. I spent years, tedious years in the courts of the eladrins convincing them to join, and my so-called superiors betray our cause by bringing in efreet?

    Andren. A ghaele eladrin, a glittering warrior of Chaos. Since the creation of Asmodeus and his punishing legions, the eladrins have put everything they are into the destruction of Law, believing them antithetical to the health of the still squamous, primitive mortal races. The bright eladrin legions, with their swords of light, were death to all who espoused Order, and so they became allies of the obyrith Queen, seduced by her many-eyed ambassador. Yet Andren has discovered a secret: the eladrins have been played for fools, continually told they were playing defense when Chaos was the aggressor as often as not, the atrocities of their allies kept from them. If he were to get this information back to his own Queen of Stars, the eladrins would stop at nothing to have their vengeance. Andren joins forces with Kerznjath to find his rebel legion a place to settle. From the Crafters in Sigil he learns of the Earth Stone in Oerth, where the force of Balance should be strong enough for them to settle safely nearby. First, however, he must convince the local Wind Duke garrison of their peaceful intentions.

    Talerac. A Wind Duke commander, stationed on Oerth near the Earth Stone (in a fortress where Castle Greyhawk is now) who is ultimately persuaded to open the Grey City to settlement by Kerznjath’s rebel legions, after hearing Andren’s dream of peace. Alternately, he could be the ruler of the Ghost Tower of Inverness. (No, I think Galap-Dreidel built that, and much later) (the big destructo-weapon from later in the story could be the Ghost Tower’s Soul-Gem) (I could use Galap-Dreidel instead of either Talerac or Eracsol, or Galap-Dreidel could have inherited the Soul-Gem from Eracsol later on)

    Sigil. A strange city built on a ring in the center of the multiverse. Kerznjath tries to settle his legions here but is rebuffed by the Lady of Pain, who he believed may be a fellow deserter of the war between Chaos and Law. Demons and Wind Dukes are both barred from the city after too many attempts to conquer it for their respective sides, but it is inhabited by Crafters, aphanacts, Baatorians, eladrins, Platonic Forms, couatls, and even mortals.

    The Crafters. Mysterious beings who live on every plane of existence, including Sigil and Oerth. The Crafters have blank, metallic faces and wear suits of golden armor showing nothing of what might be within. They collect secrets, which they will share only in return for a greater secret. They know of the Thanos’le’Shay and of the importance of Oerth. They tell Andren where Kerznjath’s legions may settle most safely in exchange for his tales of the origin of the eladrins, born from the wild dreams of a primal entity disgusted with the early wars between Chaos and Law, turned into warriors of retribution by the cloying promises of the Queen of Chaos.

    The Grey City. Also called the Free City, this is a settlement built by warriors of Chaos and Law in balance, unaffiliated with either side, built near the Earth Stone that represents the balance of the Oerth. The Free City of Greyhawk will one day be built on this same site.

    The Demiplane of Shadow. A doomsday weapon of Chaos is countered with a glowing bright tower of Law, creating a new kind of plane, an in-between place. It is seen by the inhabitants of the Grey City as a sign of hope for things to come.

    The Thanos’le’Shay. Bone-pale creatures, survivors of a previous multiverse, who have become spirits of death incarnate. Their bones are made of death, as is their skin and every other organ of their strange bodies. They can no longer reproduce normally, but new Thanos’le’Shay are born from the death of each previous multiverse, new pale bodies bleeding from dying stars. They dwell in Citadel Cavitius, a city built within the skull of Ymir, the being who died so that the new multiverse could live. Life is only ever borrows from Death, they claim, and Death collects interest. They think of themselves as only bubbles of death separated from the general entropy of the multiverse by the thinnest of membranes. They can be killed easily, and this is the only time in which they laugh and sing in honest joy. Their presences live on, to be reborn during the next cycle of the multiverse, until creation blinks for the final time and is reborn never again, at which point the Thanos’le’Shay will be the sole population of the eternal void, to celebrate it for all eternity.

    Eracsol. A Wind Duke, skeptical of the chances for peace between Chaos and Law. There can be no peace between Order and Chaos, because there is no pact that Chaos would not break, and none they could be constant to, for change and oath-breaking are their basic nature. There will only be peace when all Chaos is destroyed. Later he modifies this philosophy: There will only be peace when both Chaos and Law are destroyed. Only when both sides are no more and the multiverse is empty void will peace and order triumph. Eracsol tracks down the Thanos’le’Shay in Citadel Cavitius, who have in their possession an artifact called the Unmaker, to intercept it before the forces of the Queen of Chaos can. He ultimately decides to use it on the Grey City rather than see peace between the two warring factions; it is countered at the last minute by the Waning Star, an artifact of Law (from the adventure anthology A Hero‘s Tale by Monte Cook). The ensuing cataclysm creates the Eternal Storm of the Wind Dukes, a storm of perfectly balanced law and chaos that never ends. After confessing his crime to the Crafters, he returns to Cavitius and kills all of the Thanos’le’Shay, finally killing himself with his blade of wind. He joins them as ghostly, insubstantial presences, to grieve until the end of time amid their ever-increasing joy, hoping to become one of them in the next cycle of the multiverse.

    The Grey City is destroyed, the mingled spirits of the Wind Dukes, inevitables, spyder-fiends, obyriths, tanar’ri, slaadi, and eladrins who inhabited it transformed into the Eternal Storm to celebrate and mourn what they tried to create until the stars go dark or until the Earth Stone is no more, but the Earth Stone itself is saved before the hordes of Chaos are banished from the world. They try one last attempt, bargaining with the Leviathan beneath White Plume Mountain to allow them into the Oerth. They rush in, and the Wind Dukes, armed with the Rod of Law, manage to stop them and imprison their general, Miska the Wolf-Spider, at the cost of most of their lives. The battle creates a vast chasm known as Rift Canyon, and the battle is remembered as the Battle of Pesh. The eladrins decide not to become involved at the last minute as Andren brings Queen Morwel his news, and they hang back, waiting to have their vengeance against the treacherous obyriths after they are weakened by the battle, regardless of who wins.

    The Wind Dukes return to the hills near where the Grey City had stood (the Cairn Hills), and bury their dead.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:34 pm  

    Great article, Mortellan.

    Very well done; informative, clear and concise.

    SirXaris wrote:
    Interesting information, Mort.

    I'd say that one possible explanation for the extreme depth of the Nyr Dyv is the magical catastrophe that caused the Isles of Woe to sink (The Codex of Infinite Planes). The magic is still pulling at the bottom of the lake, making it deeper every day. The magic has probably slowed down in effect, but still operational. If the magical effect were somehow dispelled, the Isles would slowly rise again and the rest of the Lake of Unknown Depths' floor would do likewise. After all, who says that it was the same depth during the days of the Wizard-Priests of the Isles of Woe.

    This, from the Greyhawk Wiki, seems to support that possibility:
    "In a 900-year-old map now in the Great Library of Greyhawk, the islands are shown in the eastern region of the great lake, appearing to be extensions of the Cairn Hills. If this map is accurate, the size of the Nyr Dyv was smaller in those days. The island upon which Admundfort now sits was much larger, and two islands that do not now exist stood southeast of Scragholme Island. However, there are reasons to doubt the authenticity of this document."

    SirXaris




    Sir Xaris, you beat me to the punch—

    That was damn near word for word what I was going to say!

    Great minds, eh? Cool



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    Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:19 am  

    rasgon,

    Excellent. Great connection with the Earth Stone.

    Which begs a question related to the great depths of Nyr Dyv?

    Where those who settled the Isles of Woe initially motivated by a desire for the powerful magic and ruins left over from the Age before Ages, culminating in the Battle of Pesh. Did the Wizard-Priests initially build upon foundations left from the War of Law and Chaos. Unsatisfied with their finds, they sought more power until Tzunk's acquisition of the Codex and the resulting calamity?

    OR - Might the Codex have played a role in that final Battle of Pesh? It would not have been the only artifact in play, perhaps the creation/discovery of the Rod of Law by the Wandering Dukes was needed to balance out possession of the Codex by the forces of Chaos? After all, the Codex does not seem to be that predictable of an artifact, and a greater part of the multiverse seems to have converged at the battle. Might it have been unearthed on the Isles of Woe after having been lost in the flight after Miska's defeat?

    Its this convergence of so many planar forces at the Battle of Pesh that keeps hinting at the Codex of the Infinite Planes, to me anyways.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:28 am  

    I have only read the first two or three of the AoW. However, I thought the Battle of Pesh was in the Age before Ages, and even the elves were not yet inhabiting Oerth.

    If not, who built the city. If so, can you sketch a simple timeline? I dont need dates, just progression.
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    Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:07 am  

    Anced Math,

    If referring to my post, ruins could be those of either side of the Law-Chaos conflict. Indications from the Age of Worms sources suggest that the Wind Dukes had a multi-world empire. Wind Duke ruins might conceivably be found anywhere on Oerth - or throughout all of Greyspace. The fall of many of these worlds in this empire was depicted on the walls of Zosiel's Tomb in the Whispering Cairn. The Whispering Cairn itself was created by a Wind Duke architect identified in the adventure.

    Or, the ruins could be those of the forces of the Queen of Chaos, either created after conquest of the region or as command posts and war assets leading up to the Battle of Pesh.

    (I am not familiar with the Living Greyhawk use of the Isles of Woe. That said, one thought that had crossed my mind was that perhaps the Isles of Woe had initially been the encampment, command post, etc., of the Queen of Chaos. From here she brought together the hosts of Chaos from their numerous planes. To do so, she leveraged an item capable of significant planar manipulation - the Codex. The Queen of Chaos promptly fled after her general, Miska, got taken out by the Rod of Law at what would become Rift Canyon. Because she fled, the Isles themselves were not the target of significant destruction, and latter attracted mortals who hungered for ancient power left behind from the wars between the immortal races.)


    Last edited by A-Baneful-Backfire on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:24 am  

    So the ruins were those of the combatants or other race no longer present on Oerth?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:38 am  

    Essentially yes,

    Wind Dukes are natives of the elemental plane of Air, spyder-fiends (Queen of Chaos' principle servants) natives of the Abyss. They possibly make appearances (in the course of running the 2nd ed adventure Rod of Seven Parts) on Oerth.
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