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    Canonfire :: View topic - Why is Iuz a Cleric/Priest?
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    Why is Iuz a Cleric/Priest?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:48 am  
    Why is Iuz a Cleric/Priest?

    I have been thinking about the magical nature of Iuz for some time and one of the main questions I have concerns his powers as a Cleric/Priest. He is listed as a 16th level Cleric or Priest (it varies) in numerous products from 1st and 2nd Edition including: The Temple of Elemental Evil, From the Ashes, and in Die Vecna Die. Strangely enough however, his level/specific skills are not discussed in his own sourcebook, Iuz the Evil though. My question is, why does Iuz have the powers of a Cleric/Priest and not a Wizard? Once he became a Demi-God his powers changed dramatically of course, but he started off as a Cambion (although one of special lineage- Graz'zt and Iggwilv no less). According to the Monstrous Compendium, exceptional Cambions can have the powers of a Wizard, but I have never read about them having Clerical powers. I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on this subject.
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:11 pm  

    I think that is of particular interest because it begs the question of what god Iuz worships, or otherwise gains his clerical spells/powers from.

    One possible answer (though I have no references to base any of this on) is that he is exceptional (beyond even other cambions) because of the extreme power of his demonic father (Grazzt isn't some run-of-the-mill demon) combined with the magical spells that his mother would have to have cast upon herself to survive a conjugal encounter with such a creature. In effect, he grants himself such powers.

    Alternatively, Grazzt or one of his allied powers granted Iuz his clerical powers. Of course, now that Iuz is a demi-god himself, he doesn't need an outside source for clerical powers.

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    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:32 pm  

    In 1st edition, Iuz was a 16th level cleric/16th level assassin, and I'm inclined to think assassin was his only class at first. He would have gained cleric levels later, drawing divine power from the Soul Husks.

    It's conceivable that he was a cleric of Graz'zt at some point, but his relationship with his father is adversarial enough that it seems unlikely to me. Orcus, Pazuzu, or Nerull seem like at least slightly better bets.

    The third edition "ur-priest" class, which gains clerical magic by stealing power from the gods without their consent, feels like a better match than imagining Iuz being a devout follower of anyone.

    I think the most likely reason Gygax gave Iuz cleric levels instead of magic-user levels is that as a cleric he has the power to command undead, giving him some cool minions that a pure MU wouldn't have.

    Note that baron or marquis cambions with Wisdom scores greater than 9 in the 1st edition Monster Manual II could progress as evil clerics "as high a level as their total hit dice" (which capped out at 16 for those of marquis status) and become assassins to a level equal to their hit dice as well, so Iuz wasn't breaking the rules in either case. The MMII said "each profession, other than basic fighter, must be followed in turn," meaning Iuz would have had to switch between classes to progress rather than advancing in both simultaneously.

    While marquis cambions could rise to a maximum of 16 level cleric/16th level assassin, they were limited to 8th level magic-users in the MMII, so magic-user wouldn't have been as promising a career path for Iuz.

    While demigods and quasi-deities had a tendency to ignore multi-classing rules and racial level caps, in Iuz's case this wasn't necessary. He was following the rules as written (though I think he predated them). The main transgression I see is that Iuz has more hit points than a 16th level marquis cambion would have (which was limited 16d4+4 regardless of their class, as I read the rules). His magic resistance is slightly higher than a mortal cambion and his spittle attack is unique.

    While Graz'zt is one of the greatest demons of the Abyss, my reading is that by Gygax's original intent, the mortal Iuz wouldn't have been substantially more powerful than other marquis cambions. The 2nd edition Planescape Monstrous Compendium states that "a lesser or greater tanar'ri fathers a major cambion, whereas a true tanar'ri fathers a baron/marquis" but I think that's a misunderstanding of the original rules. "Major" and "Baron/Marquis" aren't supposed to be categories of cambion, but the category of the cambion's father. I mean, they are categories of cambion, but the names are "parentage classes" rather than "cambion classes." A major demon such as a nabassu could father a cambion with the "major parentage class" while I think "baron/marquis" was supposed to mean "lord/prince"—that is, only major demons and demon lords and princes could originally father cambions. Minor demons couldn't father cambions at all, and I think "major demons" were meant to include only those of type IV or greater (including nabassu, the only demons specifically called "major demons"). So Iuz would have been, as a mortal, a relatively typical son of a demon prince such as Yeenoghu, Baphomet, Orcus, Fraz-Urb'luu, or Graz'zt rather than an exceptional specimen of his kind.

    To sum up, the son of a "run-of-the-mill" major demon like a nabassu, Nalfeshnee, Marilith, or Balor would be a major cambion, while baron and marquis cambions are universally the children of Abyssal nobility like Graz'zt. Graz'zt's children would be marquis cambions, while a lesser lord like Baltazo or Gresil would father a baron cambion. That's my reading of the 1st edition MMII, anyway.

    Also, note that Iggwilv's Demonomicon has both cleric and magic-user spells in it, so you can give Iuz access to Abjure, Exaction, and Henley's Digit of Disruption.

    2nd edition rules aren't very useful in divining Gary Gygax's original intent, of course.
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    Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:07 pm  

    Could not dedication to a philosophy be a sufficient devotion for a cleric in 1st ed? Did he need a patron deity to grant spells? I just can't remember 1st ed. rules on that.

    Iuz certainly has mastered and proclaimed the CE philosophy of achieving spiritual enlightenment and personal fulfillment through the mysteries of hurting others until they do what you want.
    GreySage

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    Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:35 pm  

    A-Baneful-Backfire wrote:
    Could not dedication to a philosophy be a sufficient devotion for a cleric in 1st ed? Did he need a patron deity to grant spells? I just can't remember 1st ed. rules on that.


    By 1st edition Deities & Demigods rules, 1st and 2nd level spells could be gained through pure devotion to whatever, 3rd-5th level spells required supernatural entities to grant the spells, sixth level spells could only be granted by entities of at least lesser god status, and seventh level spells could only be granted by greater gods.

    By those rules, Iuz could be a cleric without having a divine patron, but 6th and 7th level spells would be beyond him. The intent of the rules was that 3rd-5th level spells were granted by servants of more powerful deities, at least some of them demigods in their own right. You could possibly make the argument that some freelance non-divine devas or demons could grant 3rd-5th level spells even if no god was behind them, but that seems counter to Gygax's "Experienced players know how necessary the deity is to the cleric" from his introduction. So probably an Iuz with no patron would be limited to 2nd level spells at most.

    As I said, I have trouble imagining Iuz bending his knee to any deity other than himself, even in a strictly mercenary bid for power, so I'm fine with thinking one of the following might be true:

    1. As you suggested, he gained his clerical power from some abstract force or philosophy or as an ur-priest.
    2. He gained his clerical power from the Soul Husks.
    3. He was either a low-level cleric or not a cleric at all before he became a demigod. Maybe he was a single-class assassin and started gaining clerical levels only during his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk.

    Your mileage may vary, all rules are optional, the DM is master of their own campaign, etc. But my interpretation of Deities & Demigods is that some sort of pact with concrete supernatural entities is necessary for spells of 3rd level and higher, and I think that clerics of forces and philosophies first appeared in the 2nd edition Complete Priest's Handbook. Although the Frank Mentzer Basic D&D rules had all clerics dedicated by default only to alignments, saying that all talk of gods and religions was beyond the scope of the game. Which is completely valid, just probably not part of the original thinking behind Iuz's cleric levels. That's assuming there was any thinking at all beyond "I want this evil god to have undead minions." I would guess that Gygax didn't put a lot of thought into Iuz's mortal life at first.
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    Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:06 am  

    rasgon,

    Thank you for the answer to my question and reminding me of the spell level limitations linked to a deity's status - a notion I had completely forgotten about, but which can be a significant feature of religion and motivation in Greyhawk.
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    Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:46 am  

    But deities & demigods is full of deities with clerical levels. Are they or have they been worshippers of other deities? Do deities need an explanation for their class levels? Perhaps.

    IMO, though, Iuz started out as a normal albeit strong cambion. Only after a long, ardous career did he become a demi-god, perhaps only "shortly" before being imprisoned by Zagyg. I don't see him as being capable of serving another entity at all, not even faking it. Before he became a demi-god he could have been a low-level cleric devoted to no deity in particular and only with his ascension he "bloomed" to 16th-level.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:53 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    But deities & demigods is full of deities with clerical levels. Are they or have they been worshippers of other deities? Do deities need an explanation for their class levels? Perhaps.


    I don't think the rule applies to gods.
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    Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:12 pm  

    As suggested above, I view all that character class detail as a simple way to frame or further explain their powers (as it applies to demigods +). They are not literal.
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    Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:43 am  

    Well, speaking of powers to command the undead, I'm using thread necromancy! I was browsing this thread, and another blog (can't remember which one) that was puzzling out the Iuz, Zuggtmoy, Temple of Elemental Evil timeline and the connections between these powers. Which led me to my succession of "what ifs?" What if Iuz began as a cleric to Tharizdun? I'm learning in that direction for my own stories. Any thoughts on this possibility? Any reasons why I should avoid it?
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:50 am  

    There's no reason at all to avoid it if you like it.

    The reasons I don't personally favor it:

    1. While Tharizdun is imprisoned, his clerics can't normally cast spells above 2nd level, so being a cleric of Tharizdun would be exactly as useful to Iuz as being a cleric of nobody. I think if Iuz became a cleric, it would be strictly for the sake of power and not genuine religious fervor, so being the priest of a powerless god wouldn't be his thing. Having said that, i realize there are exceptions in the rules—priests of Tharizdun can gain spells while standing in forgotten temples that have been consecrated to their deity or while in possession of certain artifacts created by their deity—but even so it's not as convenient as being the cleric of a non-imprisoned deity, so probably not the choice to make on utilitarian grounds.

    2. I tend to feel like there's a temptation to overuse Tharizdun, which makes him less a forgotten, mysterious power and more a go-to generic bad guy. So I try to think of alternatives when available.

    3. In the Gord books, Iuz and Tharizdun are pretty much on opposite sides the whole time. Iuz (with Iggwilv and Zuggtmoy) is actively trying to keep Tharizdun imprisoned while the majority of the forces of evil (Nerull, Demogorgon, the archdevils, and so on) are actively trying to free him (the other third of evil, the faction ruled by Graz'zt, is also trying to keep Tharizdun imprisoned but is an active rival of Iuz's faction). Iuz is making use of Tharizdun's power through his use of one of the Theorparts, but he's definitely not serving Tharizdun's will.

    Gary Gygax discusses his original intentions vis-à-vis Tharizdun, the Elder Elemental God, and the Temple of Elemental Evil in his answers to Paul Stormberg's questions reprinted in the Oerth Journal #12.

    Like I said, if you're happier thinking of Iuz as a (perhaps turncoat) priest of Tharizdun, more power to you. I can see ways of making it work.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:06 pm  

    This thread has been an interesting read, so I want to pitch in.

    I agree completely with what Rasgon mentioned about the distinctions among cambions based on parentage. As Iuz was fathered by Grazz't, a terribly powerful Abyssal Lord, then he would truly be among the most powerful of all cambions in his own right, barring any class levels.

    As for the why of cleric and/or assassin classes, I personally don't know and think the reasons outlined earlier bear merit.

    However, it is my understanding that all Demi-Powers require some type of true Power to 'sponsor' them from normal 'mortality' into their divine status. Mayaheine, for instance, had Pelor to sponsor her. I would imagine the same was needed for Iuz. However, with his unusual parentage (insanely powerful father and near equally powerful necromancer-witch mother, depending on viewpoint), maybe this "technicality" was just that, and not so much a stumbling block for Iuz. Maybe his 'dear old dad' was the 'sponsor' (doesn't Grazz't have a priestly following???) along with his mother's mentorship, and now Iuz is a so-called free agent.

    Or maybe not...(insert ominous tones here)

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:04 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    However, it is my understanding that all Demi-Powers require some type of true Power to 'sponsor' them from normal 'mortality' into their divine status.


    That's normally the case, but isn't always. For example, the gnomish god Nebelun the Meddler became a god purely through his own efforts (at least, that's my interpretation of the text in Monster Mythology; you could argue that acquiring something through your own efforts doesn't preclude someone granting you a reward for those efforts). The drow goddess Zinzerena became a demigoddess through trickery (she tricked Keptolo out of part of his power rather than Keptolo acting as a formal sponsor, according to the Living Greyhawk Journal, though On Hallowed Ground said "she drew enough belief from the people to raise herself to divine status"). Raxivort, too, stole what power he has, along with power that he gained from the worship of xvarts. So too, seemingly, with Kuraulyek, patron of the urds. Yes, many of these entities still got their power from gods (except perhaps for Raxivort, who might have gotten it from worship alone—it's not clear what good Graz'zt's treasure did him), but they didn't worship them. I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Iuz gaining his divinity through theft rather than willing sponsorship.

    And while Zagyg had a patron, Boccob, I don't think the Uncaring One had as much to do with Zagyg's ascension as the nine demigods that the Mad Arch-Mage drained with his God-Trap.

    I'm not saying you're wrong. 1st edition's Deities & Demigods certainly requires a divine patron as a condition of apotheosis (and, what's more, it requires the would-be deity to be a faithful and true follower of their deity and alignment).

    However, I think the mechanics of Iuz's rise to power are well established without needing a divine patron to explain anything. To wit: the Soul Husks.

    From Iuz the Evil:

    Quote:
    While these caverns contain no few secrets or monsters, what lies at the core of them is part of the mystery of Iuz's ascension to demipower status... Within it, some six structures are found which resemble ten-foot tall chrysalises. Each contains a shriveled remnant of a humanoid form, reputed to be the mortal remains of a powerful wizard or extra-planar creature which had its being extracted by Iuz through some horrific and arcane magical ritual. The energies gained by Iuz in those monstrous rituals are part of his being now. Iuz cannot destroy these remnants, since he would lose part of his power in so doing.


    Now, granted it says part of the mystery, not that it explains all of it, so you could say he extracted power from the Soul Husks plus he had some sort of divine patron, but I really think the Soul Husks are enough. Even now his power is tied to them. Most demigods don't have that sort of weakness; their power is integral to their being, not bound to external entities. I'd argue that if he had a divine patron he wouldn't have needed anything else, since other demigods seemingly didn't.

    Quote:
    Maybe his 'dear old dad' was the 'sponsor' (doesn't Grazz't have a priestly following???)


    He does, including lamiae and certain drow among his followers (in the Gord books, Eclavdra and the former followers of the Elder Elemental God jump ship to Graz'zt's cult after the Elder Elemental God is revealed as a sham).

    And demon princes are considered to be equivalent to lesser deities in 1st edition rules.

    I'm not saying it's impossible that Graz'zt granted Iuz clerical spells and/or sponsored his rise to divinity, but I suspect Iuz did it on his own.

    Certainly he's vehement about not serving anyone today.

    "Iuz will not bend his knee to anyone! Cursed be the Hierarchs and their diabolical masters! Twice cursed be those red-gowned nigglings who call themselves the Scarlet Brotherhood! Thrice damned to everlasting and tormented sleep be their Dark One [Tharizdun], the one to bind all Evil together... NEVER!" - Artifact of Evil, page 88.

    Also note that 2nd edition's Legends & Lore dropped Deities & Demigods' line about a divine patron. In the newer source, a would-be god only needs to be faithful to their alignment, not to a god. I know Iuz was created as a first edition character, but Iuz's early history is vague enough in Gygax's original writings that it's not actually totally clear that Iuz was ever mortal. As far as I can tell from 1st edition sources (ignoring Rose Estes' novels), he could have simply been born a demigod long ago. The idea that he started out mortal and ascended to divinity only relatively recently is an idea born from 2nd edition. Maybe that's a lame excuse on my part, but in the absence of any firm canon giving Iuz a divine patron I prefer to assume there wasn't one.
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:13 am  

    Rasgon,

    Once more you impress me with your research ability, especially drawing forth quotes from 'ancient texts' of the Gord books (which I also own, and recognize those passages).

    Too, I appreciate your perspective and ability to appreciate others' viewpoints in turn.

    Your preference for the Soul Husks being responsible for Iuz' rise to Demi-status seems very plausible, whether or not they are (or are not) indeed the reason. I guess unless something is concretely written about how Iuz performed this divine feat, nobody will truly know...and maybe it really doesn't matter.

    Great stuff. I enjoy reading what you craft, as always.

    -Lanthorn

    p.s. as an aside, does anybody know/have information they can share about Grazz't's priesthood, especially in a 2e (or 1e, failing that) context with respect to weapons, armor, spell spheres, turning ability, alignment, and special powers? Nothing of this sort was offered in the Monster Mythology text, nor in Deities and Demigods. If so, please post for all to share, whether on this thread, or another (cite where you put it, please). THANKS
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:34 am  

    Well, in second edition Graz'zt was considered a "near-power" rather than a god, and the rule was that he could grant priestly spells up to 3rd level, or 4th level if he appeared in person (On Hallowed Ground, page 50).
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    Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:25 am  

    Quote:
    What if Iuz began as a cleric to Tharizdun?


    In Iuz the Evil, it is stated that Iuz does not like Tharizdun, and Tharizdun freaks him out a little.
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    Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:15 pm  

    Nothing to offer to the debate, other than to say I love reading this stuff! Happy
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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:54 am  

    Before anything, most information I know is based on 3ed and this site, both of which I don't have contact in a long time, so it can be *very* incorrect. That being said...

    It is very improbable that modern Iuz worships any god - he has a bone to pick with every deity, demon and devil. Old, tyrant of the far lands to the west Iuz could worship some like-minded god or demon, like Erythnul Nerull, Vecna, Graz'zt, Demogorgon or Orcus. There isn't much details about this stage of Iuz life, as most information regarding him is at the time he is already a demigod and Emperor, and it's very normal for deities to be "clerics of themselves".
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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:54 am  

    In Iuz the Evil, it is stated that Nerull gave the final go-ahead to St. Cuthbert to imprison Iuz under Castle Greyhawk for Zagyg's benefit. Apparently Iuz doesn't care much for Nerull as a result and worries that Nerull might be planning something in retaliation for Iuz's seizure of the Horned Society lands.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:36 pm  

    Some people theorize that some kind of backwash effect from Zagyg's Godtrap was the final catalyst for Iuz's apotheosis. If that's true, in a way Zagyg is Iuz's divine sponsor and Iuz is Zagyg's divine sponsor. Or rather, Iuz was sponsored to divinity with the aid of the energy of eight other imprisoned demigods and Zagyg, while Zagyg was sponsored to divinity with the aid of eight imprisoned demigods and Iuz.

    My main problem with this is that it seems like overkill to involve Saint Cuthbert in Iuz's capture if he wasn't even a god at that time. Surely if Iuz was only a mortal cambion, the combined efforts of Zagyg, Heward, Murlynd, Keoghtom, and Kelanen would have been enough to capture him without Saint Cuthbert needing to call in a favor from Nerull.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:13 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    My main problem with this is that it seems like overkill to involve Saint Cuthbert in Iuz's capture if he wasn't even a god at that time. Surely if Iuz was only a mortal cambion, the combined efforts of Zagyg, Heward, Murlynd, Keoghtom, and Kelanen would have been enough to capture him without Saint Cuthbert needing to call in a favor from Nerull.


    Also, the whole point is that Zagyg needed nine demi-gods to power his own apotheosis - not eight demi-gods and a powerful cambion.

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    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:30 pm  

    True, but I suppose if Iuz became a demigod at the moment of Zagyg's own apotheosis it might count.

    It might actually be more potent to absorb the powers of a demigod in the process of being born. There might be a fairly sizable energy release, above what a demigod normally has.
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    Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:48 am  

    Rasgon,

    Good stuff. Excellent food for thought.

    I suppose then, the most likely origin of his "priestly powers" prior to achieving demi-godhood was in the service to his own father, Grazz't?
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    Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:52 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Well, in second edition Graz'zt was considered a "near-power" rather than a god, and the rule was that he could grant priestly spells up to 3rd level, or 4th level if he appeared in person (On Hallowed Ground, page 50).


    Anyone have statistical information on his clergy who would be willing to share?

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:07 am  

    What a fun thread! I especially like and will comment on this:

    rasgon wrote:
    I know Iuz was created as a first edition character, but Iuz's early history is vague enough in Gygax's original writings that it's not actually totally clear that Iuz was ever mortal. As far as I can tell from 1st edition sources (ignoring Rose Estes' novels), he could have simply been born a demigod long ago. The idea that he started out mortal and ascended to divinity only relatively recently is an idea born from 2nd edition. Maybe that's a lame excuse on my part, but in the absence of any firm canon giving Iuz a divine patron I prefer to assume there wasn't one.


    Along the way rasgon's posts reminded me of one of his old GreyTalk posts narrating a conversation between Iuz and Iggwilv, which stressed the ancient rebirth of Iuz "the Old," seemingly beyond Iggwilv's ken. If I recall correctly, this story also highlighted Iuz's earlier ability to shape shift and suggested his relationship to Beory and Obad-hai, i.e., Iuz as originally a Flan demigod that somehow entered into the spirit of the cambion conceived by Graz'zt and Iggwilv.

    Thus, reviewing the current thread, I was reminded of the idea that Iuz could be related to Oerth (sponsored by Beory) in ways that might seem antithetical to his behavior yet could address the question of his Clerical (though why not Druidic?) 1e character levels, as well as his being a Power of the Prime Material Plane (and hence essentially antagonistic to Tharizdun?).
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:33 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Along the way rasgon's posts reminded me of one of his old GreyTalk posts narrating a conversation between Iuz and Iggwilv, which stressed the ancient rebirth of Iuz "the Old," seemingly beyond Iggwilv's ken.


    Oh wow, thanks for remembering that. The story is archived here, by the way.
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    Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:37 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Well, in second edition Graz'zt was considered a "near-power" rather than a god, and the rule was that he could grant priestly spells up to 3rd level, or 4th level if he appeared in person (On Hallowed Ground, page 50).


    Anyone have statistical information on his clergy who would be willing to share?

    -Lanthorn
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    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:12 pm  

    Something is better than nothing. THANK YOU very much, Jedi Master. Happy

    Does anybody else have a contribution, canon or not?

    -Lanthorn, Padawan
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    Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:17 am  
    Re: Why is Iuz a Cleric/Priest?

    xo42 wrote:
    I have been thinking about the magical nature of Iuz for some time and one of the main questions I have concerns his powers as a Cleric/Priest. He is listed as a 16th level Cleric or Priest (it varies) in numerous products from 1st and 2nd Edition including: The Temple of Elemental Evil, From the Ashes, and in Die Vecna Die. Strangely enough however, his level/specific skills are not discussed in his own sourcebook, Iuz the Evil though. My question is, why does Iuz have the powers of a Cleric/Priest and not a Wizard? Once he became a Demi-God his powers changed dramatically of course, but he started off as a Cambion (although one of special lineage- Graz'zt and Iggwilv no less). According to the Monstrous Compendium, exceptional Cambions can have the powers of a Wizard, but I have never read about them having Clerical powers. I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on this subject.


    Going strictly from a Second Edition rules perspective here, as a god (even if "just" a demigod), Iuz can power his own clerical magic; while demigods can only grant 5th level magic to followers, that doesn't apply to their avatars. Note that the levels listed for a deity are the levels that best fit the powers they have, and do not have to be dependent on what class the deity was in mortal life (if they were mortal), although usually their primary class will. He could have added his clerical power after his apotheosis.

    On a side note, since clerical magic is divine magic, it makes sense that most gods who have generic magical power would have it represented as clerical magic. Deities whose powers or portfolios cross into wizardly magic (a deity of divination, for example) would of course have wizardly magic instead of/in addition to clerical magic.

    Jeff
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    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
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    Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:18 am  
    Re: Why is Iuz a Cleric/Priest?

    xo42 wrote:
    I have been thinking about the magical nature of Iuz for some time and one of the main questions I have concerns his powers as a Cleric/Priest. He is listed as a 16th level Cleric or Priest (it varies) in numerous products from 1st and 2nd Edition including: The Temple of Elemental Evil, From the Ashes, and in Die Vecna Die. Strangely enough however, his level/specific skills are not discussed in his own sourcebook, Iuz the Evil though. My question is, why does Iuz have the powers of a Cleric/Priest and not a Wizard? Once he became a Demi-God his powers changed dramatically of course, but he started off as a Cambion (although one of special lineage- Graz'zt and Iggwilv no less). According to the Monstrous Compendium, exceptional Cambions can have the powers of a Wizard, but I have never read about them having Clerical powers. I'd be interested to hear more thoughts on this subject.


    Going strictly from a Second Edition rules perspective here, as a god (even if "just" a demigod), Iuz can power his own clerical magic; while demigods can only grant 5th level magic to followers, that doesn't apply to their avatars. Note that the levels listed for a deity are the levels that best fit the powers they have, and do not have to be dependent on what class the deity was in mortal life (if they were mortal), although usually their primary class will. He could have added his clerical power after his apotheosis.

    On a side note, since clerical magic is divine magic, it makes sense that most gods who have generic magical power would have it represented as clerical magic. Deities whose powers or portfolios cross into wizardly magic (a deity of divination, for example) would of course have wizardly magic instead of/in addition to clerical magic.

    Jeff
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