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    Canonfire :: View topic - Campaign Idea: War Between Arcane and Divine Magic
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    Campaign Idea: War Between Arcane and Divine Magic
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
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    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

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    Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:38 am  
    Campaign Idea: War Between Arcane and Divine Magic

    This topic originated in another thread I started and rather than derailing that one I was more comfortable starting another.

    In my campaign that I am resurrecting from a few years ago, the premises is that the Deities of Greyhawk are very upset with the worshippers of the Flanaess because they have strayed away from the way that the populace was taught to worship. I realize in many campaigns some DM's have players give thanks and worship to whichever deity serves them best at the moment and the characters frequent multiple deities temples and give thanks. In other campaigns it is one deity per character and this is my preference.

    As a result, the populace of the world were instructed to select one deity that they would revere and get to know. As the centuries past this way of worship eventually went to the wayside and became one of the populace worshipping and giving thanks to whichever deity served them best at that particular moment. After seeing this continue and worsen over the next several centuries the deities have decided enough is enough and decided to take action. All the deities are in agreement with the exception of Tharizdun who of coarse is imprisoned.

    The deities each agreed to send a calamity of their choosing based on their spheres of influence. One of these calamities could be a war of arcane magic versus divine magic. The deity or deities responsible have yet to be determined. It is also an option that Tharizdun is behind this war rather than any of the other deities...that is the direction I think is best for the campaign but I'm open to suggestions. The war should be fairly large in size encompassing at least a few nations if not several. I'm interested in it making sense as well making sure that those responsible have plenty to gain from it and at the same time arrange it so that no permanent damage is done to the campaign (such as divine magic ceasing to exist or something equally as devastating.)

    Essentially I want to plan this war as best as possible in advance before fully introducing it in the campaign. This thread is an attempt to get feedback from other Greyhawkers so that I can put together a great portion of the campaign.

    The characters are just entering Castle Greyhawk to plunder it and I would like the war to get started when they are towards the end of the module...so its likely this war scenario would take place in a year or so.

    One thought was to use Bigby as the starting piece to spark the war along with a few other wizards that are hand picked from Greyhawk. They would strike at a time when the Clerics of all other religions suffered a great blow at the hands of Tharizdun. As a result of his interferance, Clerics of other religions would not be able to temporarily access spells from their deities, making them more susceptible to being destroyed. It would be up to the PCs to resolve this issue in order to balance out the war between divine and arcane magic. I thought the key to ending this interference of Tharizdun would be found in Castle Greyhawk. So far the only deity that has been affected by spell loss is Istus though its assumed others are quickly to follow.

    Your thoughts on how to plan out this campaign direction?
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:16 pm  

    Perhaps its the very presence of magic on Oerth that fuels, forms and maintains the prison in which Tharizdun is imprisoned. Perhaps the Oerth Stone in Castle Greyhawk serves as a conduit to the prison?

    Perhaps Tharizdun's plan is to pit various forms of magic against one another, emphasizing their differences, rather than similarities. With the reduction in magic, through its mutual destruction, Tharizdun's prison is weakened, and ultimately will fail. (Indeed, by the time of Pluffet Smedger the Elder, circa 963 CY, magic is already fading, according to one source.)

    Bigby, being neutral, might be motivated to disrupt divine magic because it literally comes from a particular faction, faith and motive that is often extreme and hostile to other parts of reality or opposing viewpoints. He just might not realize by reducing the amount of magic he is unwittingly assisting Tharizdun.

    Such disruptions however, might gain the attention of Boccob - who seems to appreciate all magic - and therefore might actually have an inkling (or really deep understanding) of its role in imprisoning Tharizdun. Boccob might just stop being so uncaring.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
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    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

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    Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:21 pm  

    A-Baneful-Backfire wrote:
    Perhaps its the very presence of magic on Oerth that fuels, forms and maintains the prison in which Tharizdun is imprisoned. Perhaps the Oerth Stone in Castle Greyhawk serves as a conduit to the prison?

    Perhaps Tharizdun's plan is to pit various forms of magic against one another, emphasizing their differences, rather than similarities. With the reduction in magic, through its mutual destruction, Tharizdun's prison is weakened, and ultimately will fail. (Indeed, by the time of Pluffet Smedger the Elder, circa 963 CY, magic is already fading, according to one source.)

    Bigby, being neutral, might be motivated to disrupt divine magic because it literally comes from a particular faction, faith and motive that is often extreme and hostile to other parts of reality or opposing viewpoints. He just might not realize by reducing the amount of magic he is unwittingly assisting Tharizdun.

    Such disruptions however, might gain the attention of Boccob - who seems to appreciate all magic - and therefore might actually have an inkling (or really deep understanding) of its role in imprisoning Tharizdun. Boccob might just stop being so uncaring.


    Thoughtful comments for certain, thank you. I'm looking forward to developing this leg of the campaign, I just want to make certain I have a good foundation before introducing details. I really like your take on using the Oerth Stone to being involved in Tharizdun's imprisonment. That would fit in nicely with our trip to Castle Greyhawk.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:34 pm  

    A Baneful Backfire's ideas are good ones and I like the entire premiss of a campaign based on a war between practitioners of divine vs. arcane magic.

    Here are my thoughts.

    Going with Eileen's original idea, the deities begin to plague the peoples of the Flanaess with various forms of torment in an attempt to convince them that they need to be more obedient to the gods' decrees. Unfortunately for the gods, the people instead get angry at what they perceive as unfair, capriciousness by those gods who are supposed to be protecting them from the very plagues they are unleashing upon them.

    This attitude may very well be fomented by clandestine cults devoted to Tharizdun.

    The people are inspired (again, likely at the instigation of Tharizdun's cult) to seek help from arcane spellcasters because they are not dependent upon the gods for their power. Thus, Tharizdun is the puppet-master pitting the people, with their arcane spellcasters, against the gods, with their clerics.

    This may all be because Tharizdun is evil and enjoys seeing all of creation tear its own throat out, or it may be that such a war will weaken the gods to a degree that their ability to keep Tharizdun imprisoned becomes impotent and Tharizdun plans to escape that way.

    SirXaris
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:26 am  

    I really like these ideas, this campaign is shaping up nicely. Lets continue....
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:28 am  

    A-Baneful-Backfire: You offered the following which I would like to include in the backdrop of this war.

    "Perhaps its the very presence of magic on Oerth that fuels, forms and maintains the prison in which Tharizdun is imprisoned. Perhaps the Oerth Stone in Castle Greyhawk serves as a conduit to the prison? Perhaps Tharizdun's plan is to pit various forms of magic against one another. Tharizdun's prison is weakened, and ultimately will fail. (Indeed, by the time of Pluffet Smedger the Elder, circa 963 CY, magic is already fading, according to one source.) "

    Now I need to do some research on the Oerth Stone but if memory serves me correctly, wasn't it the source of magic on Oerth? Tharizdun and his followers have been the primary villain for the campaign. Perhaps many Greyhawk fans will feel he is over used but the players I have had over the years were novices to the world and what it is all about. So what is new to them has been new to me in ways, yet familiar as well. Now I am starting out with one new player (my only player as the others have since departed the campaign to put it nicely). So everything is new again.

    In the previous adventures, the group went through a series of modules, two of which were The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun and the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. These modules placed the importance upon him so he became a household name to the players. In a few of the other modules I dropped Tharizdun clues into it so he made some sort of background appearance. I mention all of this because in more than one case Tharizdun has tried to return to Oerth...and the PCs stopped him. He has several other mastermind plans he is orchestrating at the same time and I think the war of Divine and Arcane Magic would fit in nicely. I like the idea of the war somehow weakening his prison. Thank you A-Baneful-Backfire.

    Now I also need to apologize to you...in a previous post I mentioned Bigby as a player in the war....I meant to say Rary. That's what I get for taking too much time off from D&D. That's not to say that Bigby couldn't become part of things though....in fact I think its very likely...because the question that remains is......

    What do all of those high level NPC's that pursue the arts of Arcane and Divine magic do when a war breaks out? How will they be handled? Will the become active members in the war? Will they seek to use their experience and wisdom and attempt to negotiate a peace before it explodes across the Flanaess? Will they be instigators or pawns of Tharizdun?

    Such is one of the reasons I asked in another thread how people felt about High Level NPCs in Greyhawk. To many? To little? etc.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods


    Last edited by EileenProphetofIstus on Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:46 am; edited 2 times in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:43 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    The deities begin to plague the peoples of the Flanaess with various forms of torment in an attempt to convince them that they need to be more obedient to the gods' decrees. Unfortunately for the gods, the people instead get angry at what they perceive as unfair, capriciousness by those gods who are supposed to be protecting them from the very plagues they are unleashing upon them.

    This attitude may very well be fomented by clandestine cults devoted to Tharizdun.

    The people are inspired (again, likely at the instigation of Tharizdun's cult) to seek help from arcane spellcasters because they are not dependent upon the gods for their power. Thus, Tharizdun is the puppet-master pitting the people, with their arcane spellcasters, against the gods, with their clerics. SirXaris


    Sometime ago in the campaign an event called "The Gathering of Faiths" took place in Greyhawk City. Each God (except one which was Tharizdun) called one individual of their flock to attend this all important meeting at the arena in Greyhawk City. These individuals were divinely sent by their God to receive the message and bring it back to their churches. The message being.....

    "That people need to return to the old ways of worship and until they do so, judgments will be issued forth upon the Flanaess."

    All of these religious leaders took the message seriously and return to their faiths to distribute it. Thus was the beginning of "Change" and the plagues/judgments. Not all people will take kindly to the changes however and many will feel abandoned or threatened by the Gods. This has already begun to happen and thank you SirXaris for we are clearly on the same path.

    I like your idea of Tharizdun's cults undermining the people's beliefs in repentance because the less they repent, the more Gods destroy, which of coarse is much to Tharizdun's liking.

    You suggested using the cult of Tharizdun to instigate the Arcane/Divine War, I like that, it fits in perfectly with the overall campaign. You suggest the "people" turning to arcane casters for help. I would like to take this further because it makes a lot of sense and doesn't sound overly complicated. Can we discuss some options about the specifics of this?
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:16 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    You suggested using the cult of Tharizdun to instigate the Arcane/Divine War, I like that, it fits in perfectly with the overall campaign. You suggest the "people" turning to arcane casters for help. I would like to take this further because it makes a lot of sense and doesn't sound overly complicated. Can we discuss some options about the specifics of this?


    How about...

    When your PCs surface from the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk into the war, they quickly hear all kinds of rumors about how it began. They should want to do their research (asking high-level clergy and consulting sages, etc.) to find out just what is going on. This should lead them to potential solutions to the problem. Those potential solutions should send them on adventures appropriate to their level.

    For example, if they emerge from the ruins at 10th level, or thereabouts, they may need to acquire a holy relic that will cause one of the plagues to abate. As they advance in level, they may need to intervene in a battle between opposing forces (one representing the gods and the other made up of those rejecting them). To prevent bloodshed on such a spectacular scale, them must cause a river to overflow its banks to prevent one army from crossing, or cause an avalanche to block a mountain path, etc. They may have discovered that such bloodshed will strengthen Tharizdun after defeating one of his cults and finding their plans.

    Higher level still may see them traveling the planes to seek out the divine heralds of the gods. Each of these divine heralds will require the PCs to prove their worthiness before cooperating with them in any way. Good ones may send them on a quest. Evil ones may only cooperate if they are personally defeated in combat. Neutral ones may require a pair of balancing acts (which may be particularly worrisome to good PCs). Later, the PCs must interact with the gods themselves to stop the plagues. They will need to have acquired proof that the wars are weakening Tharizdun's prison or the gods won't relent.

    SirXaris
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