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    Canonfire :: View topic - Fates of MIAs
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    Fates of MIAs
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:18 pm  
    Fates of MIAs

    It seems to be a cliche that if someone is missing (presumed dead) that they are actually being held somewhere, waiting to be rescued by a band of adventurers like a certain Marshall of Furyondy or leader of the Shield Lands!

    I DM Ratik (currently 578), and might get to the battle of Kalmar Pass and the "death" of Alain, but I saw an adventure that hinted he might still be alive. Does anyone know how that turned out?

    Greyhawk Wars left the fate of Osson open to doubt. Any chance that he actually just got killed?

    What about the rebellious Censor of Medegia?

    Any other examples?
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:41 pm  

    Well, the LGG, on page 91, states that Alain's lieutenants saw him slain. So Alain is definitely "dead."

    As for Osson, I don't recall seeing anything definitive on him. He might have retreated with his army back across the Thelly. Or, perhaps he died in battle. I'm not sure.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:23 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Well, the LGG, on page 91, states that Alain's lieutenants saw him slain. So Alain is definitely "dead."


    In addition to being raised from the dead, in a fantasy world there is also the possibility of them having seen some type of illusion or doppleganger or that they were bribed into lying about what they witnessed.

    SirXaris
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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:35 pm  
    Re: Fates of MIAs

    jamesdglick wrote:
    I DM Ratik (currently 578), and might get to the battle of Kalmar Pass and the "death" of Alain, but I saw an adventure that hinted he might still be alive. Does anyone know how that turned out?


    Yes. Will PM so there's no spoiler for those that might play it someday.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:12 pm  

    Kill them all let the gods sort them out! Razz

    Actually I think raise dead, resurrection, and clone, are used to often IMHO. Not a problem in my game raising a dead person back to the living requires the aid of a priest of the dead no other deity save a god of the dead can release the soul of one that has passed away IMC.

    Clone spells by their very nature can not be used by a mage to make sure a copy of himself lives if he should pass. As the spell states once they have knowledge of each other they seek each other out until their is only one. I rule that once the wizard casts the spells to create a copy of himself the nature of the spell causes him to destroy the copy he just requested, as he will be aware of its existence.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:25 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    In addition to being raised from the dead, in a fantasy world there is also the possibility of them having seen some type of illusion or doppleganger . . .


    Though a possibility, he was "pulled down" by Gnolls, a species that happens to find humans a "tasty snack food." Evil Grin

    SirXaris wrote:
    or that they were bribed into lying about what they witnessed.


    One might wonder what "they" hoped to gain, however. Baroness Evaleigh (Gord's former lover) is now Ruler and she gained the throne legally. Not all "nobles" within the barony are going to agree to an usurpation (by whoever did the bribing). Why then should the lieutenants lie about Alain's death? What do "they" gain? An "iffy" proposition, at best. Confused

    Though it might well make for some interesting game play! Wink
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:20 pm  

    Alain is quite dead. I believe he actually was eaten by the gnolls that killed him (ask PSmdeger for confirmation of that). Perhaps his skull still serves as the wine cup (or is a trophy) of some humanoid leader in Spinecastle...
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    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:33 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Alain is quite dead . . . Perhaps his skull still serves as the wine cup (or is a trophy) of some humanoid leader in Spinecastle...


    The perfect reason for launching an invasion of Spinecastle! Idea

    "Death to the Gnolls! We must return Alain's skull for proper burial!" Shocked


    Wanted!


    Mighty heroes to rescue the remains of our beloved Prince Alain! Do you have the courage to enter Spinecastle? If so, contact our Captain of the Guard -- PSmedger -- for details!


    Oh! Wait! PSmedger has already gathered heroes! Doh! rolleyes
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:29 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Well, the LGG, on page 91, states that Alain's lieutenants saw him slain. So Alain is definitely "dead."...


    ...but:

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...in a fantasy world there is also the possibility of them having seen some type of illusion or doppleganger...


    -Unlikley, but possible. To what end? To conceal a capture? To conceal a defection? Surprised

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...they were bribed into lying about what they witnessed...


    -Who would have bribed them? To what end? But possible.

    It's also possible that they lied simply to cover up the fact that they left Alain to die--not exactly a heroic moment. Confused

    Either way, there are magical ways to detect lies. There are also magical ways to conceal them! Evil Grin

    Another possibility is that people see what they see, and then make assumptions. A historical example is the young Kit Carson. He was with another guy when they were attacked by indians. Kit escaped, and naturally told everyone of the death of his companion. Young Kit's career was nearly cut short when the guy dragged himself in a few days later, not so happy about being abandoned by that rookie. Razz

    Sometimes, eyewitness testimony isn't worth the proverbial warm bucket of spit. It depends on the eyewitness--in this case, Alain's "lieutenants"--any of whom could be wrong for any number of reasons. Who were they anyway? (If I get around to it, most of them will be the sons of Bone March aristocrats).

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...In addition to being raised from the dead...


    ...that too!

    But:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...Though a possibility, he was "pulled down" by Gnolls, a species that happens to find humans a "tasty snack food."


    ...and...

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I believe he actually was eaten by the gnolls that killed him...


    That would pretty well do it, if the gnolls ate him. That assumes that they even killed him, and that if they killed him, that they ate him. Gnolls might like to eat people, but they're smart enough to know that they can buy a lot more people chow with the gold they can get for a ransom. Of course, that beings up the question of why there was no offer of ransom.

    Or was there? Evil Grin

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Perhaps his skull still serves as the wine cup (or is a trophy) of some humanoid leader in Spinecastle...


    -You'd think that word would get out from all the bragging that the owner of such a trophy would do. A modest gnoll chieftain? Or a smart one?

    Wouldn't Alain's skull make an intersting magic item? Even an artifact?

    There's one way to find out:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...The perfect reason for launching an invasion of Spinecastle! Idea

    "Death to the Gnolls! We must return Alain's skull for proper burial!"


    On Osson:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...As for Osson, I don't recall seeing anything definitive on him. He might have retreated with his army back across the Thelly. Or, perhaps he died in battle. I'm not sure.


    -Yeah. He seems to have dropped into a black hole.

    Any other examples?

    Ashur wrote:

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...I saw an adventure that hinted he might still be alive. Does anyone know how that turned out?


    Yes. Will PM so there's no spoiler for those that might play it someday.


    -Got it, thanks. Exactly what I needed. I'll accept the source as authoritative.

    Perhaps others might consult Ashur? Some people might be surprised. Evil Grin
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:55 pm  

    Credit where credit is due.

    "Shadows of Spinecastle" by Stephen Greer and Gary Holian. Dungeon Magazine #148, July 2007

    Gary even runs a Spinecastle game on this forum.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:47 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    As for Osson, I don't recall seeing anything definitive on him. He might have retreated with his army back across the Thelly. Or, perhaps he died in battle. I'm not sure.


    From Ivid the Undying (v4), pg 32
    "The dungeons of the royal palace contain an unknown number of wretches suffering the Endless Death. Here, they are tortured by priests of Hextor, given a ring of regeneration, and then tortured all over again. Such treatment renders the victims insane very swiftly. The current victims include Spidasa, Censor of Medegia, and it is possible that Chelor, Herzog of South Province, is similarly tormented—though some say he is dead. Some folk believe that Osson of Almor is similarly imprisoned in the unspeakable dungeons, swarming with evil priests, lesser and least baatezu, undead of most kinds, and worse."

    pg.85
    "Kalreth is a general of the Companion Guard, and he hunted down Osson in Medegia and razed much of that land."

    From pg 19 of The Greyhawk Wars
    "Though Osson planned an orderly dash for safety, it was not to be. As the cavalry charged across the Flanmi River, most of its officers fell to the bowmen of the entrenched Aerdi Army. So many fell, in fact, that even the energetic and brilliant commandant could not reign in the cavalry. Before even securing the field, every horseman who still drew breath rode hard for the hills and the safety of Sunndi. From there, the ragged line of cavalry wormed its way home by way of the Iron League. Commandant of the Field Osson of Chathold did not return, and his final fate remains a mystery. The Great Almorian Raid had finally met its end."
    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:32 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    Kalreth is a general of the Companion Guard, and he hunted down Osson in Medegia . . . Commandant of the Field Osson of Chathold did not return, and his final fate remains a mystery . . . Some folk believe that Osson of Almor is similarly imprisoned in the unspeakable dungeons . . .


    Poor Thrommel, imprisoned in the Temple of . . . err, I mean Osson, poor Osson! Evil Grin



    Oh, and Nellisir? I went ahead and bookmarked your Blog. Happy? Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:46 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Oh, and Nellisir? I went ahead and bookmarked your Blog. Happy? Laughing Laughing Laughing


    I am, actually. :) I'd like to get back to posting in it sometime. I graduate in December, so probably beginning of next year? I do have snippets from old writings that I'm trying to put up on occasion, but there's no real rhyme or reason to it.
    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:22 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I graduate in December . . .


    OMG! Shocked

    I've been taking all this "duff" from . . . a teenager! Surprised

    Hehehehehehehehehe! Evil Grin Laughing
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:50 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    I graduate in December . . .


    OMG! Shocked

    I've been taking all this "duff" from . . . a teenager! Surprised

    Hehehehehehehehehe! Evil Grin Laughing


    Graduate school, dude. And trust me, there was a long break between undergrad and grad.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:23 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I believe he actually was eaten by the gnolls that killed him...


    That would pretty well do it, if the gnolls ate him. That assumes that they even killed him, and that if they killed him, that they ate him. Gnolls might like to eat people, but they're smart enough to know that they can buy a lot more people chow with the gold they can get for a ransom. Of course, that beings up the question of why there was no offer of ransom.

    Or was there? Evil Grin


    There is no assumption that Alain us dead. The snippet...

    "In 586 CY, Alain led a force of men and dwarves into the Bone March in an attempt to retake Spinecastle with the baron's grudging support. The attack failed, and Alain's surviving lieutenants watched as the young lord was dragged from his horse by gnolls and slain.

    ---LGG p. 91"

    ...is not really very open to interpretation, though the pic in the LGG entitled called "The Death of Alain" could, I guess, be interpreted to mean that the pictured gnolls pulling Alain from his wild-eyed horse "killed" Alain's will to remain mounted upon his doomed steed (which also subsequently got eaten). Razz

    And humanoids don't really ransom people either. Why? Because people don't trust them enough to even set up such an exchange. That probably has much to do with ninety-nine out of a hundred such exchanges ending up being ambushes. Even if they do go off okay, you might get a captive back with their arms eaten off. "You'z never said we'z had to give 'im back whole. Hur, hur, hur!"

    You see, evil scum just don't have much of a code of honor about following rules and such (even the Lawful Evil ones). For gnolls, it is also against their back biting/ankle biting nature. Why have one captive, when you can have captive, maybe get more captives, and even get paid more. Besides, it is not smart to hand back war leaders (even stupid ones) that can unite your enemies to enough of an extent that they will invade you(not to mention that most stupid war leaders will usually learn form their mistakes and do better the next time around).

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Perhaps his skull still serves as the wine cup (or is a trophy) of some humanoid leader in Spinecastle...


    -You'd think that word would get out from all the bragging that the owner of such a trophy would do. A modest gnoll chieftain? Or a smart one?

    Wouldn't Alain's skull make an interesting magic item? Even an artifact?

    There's one way to find out:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...The perfect reason for launching an invasion of Spinecastle! Idea

    "Death to the Gnolls! We must return Alain's skull for proper burial!"


    Alain had a "perfect" reason for invading too. Look what it got him. If only there was somebody even more brave and foolish that Alain who would take up such a cause...

    Ah yes, enter the adventurers. Razz

    Alain's skull or some other bits could make for some interesting items.

    * The Skullcup of Victory
    * The Knucklebone Necklace (made of Alain's finger bones)

    ...and so on.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:42 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Alain had a "perfect" reason for invading too. Look what it go him. If only there was somebody even more brave and foolish that Alain who would take up such a cause . . . Ah yes, enter the adventurers. Razz


    True! Why, even Cebrion's PC is involved in a mission to Spinecastle . . . as we "speak!" Shocked

    Evil Grin Laughing Evil Grin Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:29 am  

    Cebrion wrote:


    There is no assumption that Alain us dead. The snippet...

    "In 586 CY, Alain led a force of men and dwarves into the Bone March in an attempt to retake Spinecastle with the baron's grudging support. The attack failed, and Alain's surviving lieutenants watched as the young lord was dragged from his horse by gnolls and slain.

    ---LGG p. 91"

    ...is not really very open to interpretation...


    Better, but unfortunately, LGG is often written in 1st person rather than 3rd person omniscient (The settling of the Sheldomar by the Neheli and Rhola springs to mind).

    Which is why I'm skeptical in the first place.

    Of course, you can only distrust the LGG (and it's predecessors) so much before you end up with gibberish, I supose. Laughing But Alain being missing just seems ripe, a al Prince T, etc.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...You see, evil scum just don't have much of a code of honor about following rules and such (even the Lawful Evil ones)...


    -Evil scum follow rules if they want credibility for the next ransom. Wink Think Boss Dhaely (Really? Another example of EGG's clever name creation ) and the ransoming of Evaleigh. Think kidnappers in the real world.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...And humanoids don't really ransom people either...


    -In my campaign, they do.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...And humanoids don't really ransom people either. Why? Because people don't trust them enough to even set up such an exchange. That probably has much to do with ninety-nine out of a hundred such exchanges ending up being ambushes. Even if they do go off okay, you might get a captive back with their arms eaten off. "You'z never said we'z had to give 'im back whole. Hur, hur, hur!"


    -I just remember reading something GH related where that happened, although it may not have been humanoids. When you cut a deal, you do have to specify. Wink

    Of course, even with arms eaten off, Evaleigh would want him back.

    Or would she? Evil Grin

    You're also assuming that they'd ransom him to the folks back home. There are other options, heh, heh, heh... Evil Grin

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Alain's skull or some other bits could make for some interesting items.

    * The Skullcup of Victory
    * The Knucklebone Necklace (made of Alain's finger bones)

    ...and so on.


    -I vote for putting him on wheels turning his skeleton into movable hat rack. Razz

    Cebrion wrote:

    "The Death of Alain" could, I guess, be interpreted to mean that the pictured gnolls pulling Alain from his wild-eyed horse "killed" Alain's will to remain mounted upon his doomed steed (which also subsequently got eaten)...


    -We must reclaim the Bone March to rescue Alain's horse, old what's-his-name! Razz
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:22 pm  

    Yeah,

    The party is in trouble as it seems a bard and the half-orc are often left in a leadership role. Did I mention we have a smart alack half-ogre and a priest of Hextor that makes Grumpy the dwarf look cheerful and happy. Laughing

    Later

    Argon
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    Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:54 am  

    Instead of creating a new thread, I thought I'd just bring this one back, since it involves Alain:

    Any ideas of what D&D 3.5 class Alain, heir apparent of Ratik, may have been? His armor apparently had the mark of Heironeous etched on it, but anyone can worship Heironeous, not just paladins, although it strongly implies a LG or NG alignment. Maybe paladin, although if he were, you'd think it would have been mentioned. Fighter would be good, but so would marshal or knight.

    In my case, My PCs are in 578 CY, and I'd like to have something ready "just in case". The don't know what his destiny is, after all. They could even be the ones who get him in trouble. Laughing Or maybe change his destiny?
    GreySage

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    Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:48 pm  

    It depends on the edition, but I'd make Alain a fighter or cavalier or the like rather than a paladin. He could be a paladin, but I don't think there's anything that portrays him as particularly virtuous, just ambitious. " Many whispered that Alain was encouraged in these ambitions by his step-family, particularly the count of Knurl, whose position between Bone March, North Province, and Nyrond was grossly precarious." That doesn't sound like a crusading paladin, it sounds like an ambitious noble. The cavalier class from 1st edition's Unearthed Arcana sounds perfect to me, especially the immunity to fear part that hastens his doom.

    Researching Alain brought up this bit from Living Greyhawk Journal #5, page 30: "A strange beggar has appeared on the docks of Marner, Ratik's capital. He claims to be a squire of Alain, the lost husband of lady Baroness Evaleigh, and that Alain is still alive. Is this just another sadly confused veteran of the Bone March campaign?"

    For what it's worth, Zavoda's index has Alain mentioned in the following sources:

    Saga of Old City, page 241
    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, 36, 90, 91
    Living Greyhawk Journal #1, 30
    Living Greyhawk Journal #5, 30

    The Living Greyhawk County of Knurl Gazetteer also mentions him briefly. It also has Lady Evaleigh far too young, in my opinion, claiming she was born 565 CY. Since she seemed to be a full-grown adult in Saga of Old City, she should be older than that (she would also have been only 13 or 14 when she married Alain in 579, which isn't impossible, but gets uncomfortable when you realize she was messing around with Gord the Rogue prior to that).
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