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    Ancient Giant Empire?
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:51 pm  
    Ancient Giant Empire?

    I've been reading Volo's Guide to Monsters about the ancient giant empire of the Forgotten Realms, and noticed that something very similar exists on Golarian.

    Does Oerth have anything like this? My PCs are going to spend some time with a cloud giant bard, and I'd like to regale them with some ancient giant lore/songs/rumors.

    Where would I look for more information on the history of Oerth giants?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:45 am  

    There's not much outside of the GDQ series. Greyhawk Adventures notes that Tovag Baragu is similar in style to certain stone giant ruins, implying that an ancient, highly magical stone giant civilization might have been responsible for creating it.

    3rd edition's Exemplars of Evil mentions Gilgirn, "a fiery mountainhold that became the birthplace of fire giant civilization." Of course I'd place that in the Hellfurnaces.

    If Oerth had an equivalent of the Forgotten Realms' primal giant kingdom of Ostoria, I'd expect it to be in the vicinity of the Barrier Peaks-Crystalmists-Joten ranges, probably including Gilgirn in what are now the Hellfurnaces. The Hellfurnaces are said to have erupted during the Rain of Colorless Fire, but I'm sure they were at least somewhat volcanic prior to that. Perhaps the Rain didn't so much ignite the Hellfurnaces as reignite them; maybe they were more volcanic millennia ago and slowly cooled before the cataclysm inspired them once again to burn.

    The Forgotten Realms' giant lore comes primarily from a 2e sourcebook called Giantcraft. In that book, Annam sired the ancestors of most of the giant races on a mountain goddess called Othea, who betrayed him by having affairs. In Greyhawk, it might make sense to replace Othea with Ulaa and her lover Ulutiu with Bleredd, who unlike Ulutiu wasn't killed and thrown into the ocean, but instead became Ulaa's husband. Ulaa's priests often choose giants as their racial enemy, so the split must have been acrimonious even if it didn't end with death (even so, it would make sense for some stone, mountain, and hill giants to worship Ulaa, perhaps other mountain-dwelling giants as well). Giantcraft has the giantish gods mostly sired on an unnamed wind goddess. Monster Mythology makes much of Annam's many quarreling wives, so it might make sense to have all three of Greyhawk's wind goddesses—Atroa, Sotillion, and Wenta—alternately being pursued by and pursuing the giantish god before the whole thing falls apart in a mess of jealousy and envy, but not before some of the major giantish gods are spawned. Other possible lovers of Annam might include Joramy, Myhriss, and Ehlonna (with Joramy giving birth to fire giants, Ehlonna to voadkyn and firbolgs, Atroa to storm giants, Sotillion to cloud giants, Ulaa to the ancestors of hill, mountain, fomorians, ogres, trolls, and stone giants, and Wenta perhaps to frost giants).

    One thing that might be different about Greyhawk's giants from D&D standard is the cult of the Elder Elemental God, which might be more prominent than typical as opposed to standard evil giant gods like Surtr, Thrym, Grolantor, Karontor, Vaprak, and Memnor. Perhaps Surtr, Thrym, Grolantor, Karontor, Vaprak, and Memnor are all only masks the Elder Elemental God assumes (though some might also be Erythnul).

    Others have noted the similarities between Annam and Boccob. Both are gods of magic, both noted for being remote and uncaring in the present age, both are greater deities with realms on the plane of Concordant Opposition. Boccob's name is a palindrome and Annam's is almost one, minus the m.

    Other than that, I don't think there's much. Look to places where giants are common now—the Crystalmists, the Hellfurnaces, the Barrier Peaks, the Jotuns, the Clatspurs, the Yatils, the Corusks, Griffs, Rakers, Sulhauts, Ullsprues—and extrapolate that for mightier kingdoms in the past.

    Curiously, giants aren't on the Lortmil Mountains encounter chart in the Glossography, but there is a hidden stone giant community in the valley of Esmerin there (Greyhawk Adventures), so you might want to account for that.

    Of Oerth's hills, only the Abbor-Alz, Blemu Hills, Bluff Hills, Drachensgrabs, Howling Hills, Spine Ridge, and Tors are noted for hosting hill giants. There are fomorians in the Howling Hills and the Bone March and verbeegs in the Yatils and the Udgru Forest. There are voadkyn in the Celadon.

    The fact that giants conquered Geoff and Sterich might indicate an ancient claim on those lands by giantkind, before the coming of the elves or Flan. The Troll Fens are home to trolls and ogres, and there might have been a greater, more civilized giant realm near there in the distant passed that succumbed to degeneracy, perhaps extending into what is now the Pale and Tenh.

    There are stone monoliths in the Abbor-Alz where ogres meet every seventeenth cycle of Celene to dance and commune and sometimes go into terrible war frenzies. Perhaps that custom dates back to the age of giant empires, too, or to events in giantish mythology involving Vaprak or Grolantor.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:15 am  

    That's all fascinating. One thing conspicuously missing is an ancient giants vs. dragons war that the FR material hinges upon. I'd been musing on basing some of the old tales on such a war, when it occurred to me I don't remember any Oerth references to such a war, that such a war might be FR-centric.

    So I've had this CN cloud giant bard kicking around my campaign for a while without really developing him, so I was delighted to see in Volo's Guide to Monsters this new type of cloud giants called Smiling Ones who seek to embody Memnor's trickster/deceit attributes. I definitely want to use that, as I see this cloud giant bard as not exactly an outcast of his people, but not accepted by either G or E cloud giants either. He's gathered a motley group of hill giants, frost giants, ogres, forest giants, and stone giants under him and is attempting to educate and acculturate and civilize them. But i don't really know what his end goal is. I would rather it not be power, because everyone's goal is always power. I don't see him as either consistently/comfortably either protagonist or antagonist to the PCs.

    Because he's a bard, my intuition is that his goals should connect to ancient giant lore or empires in some way. (My campaign occurs in Sterich, and so there's all this prejudice/hostility/vengeance against giants in general there among the human population.)
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:51 pm  

    I think there's room for a giant-dragon war on Oerth. Oerth Journal #24 has an article on draconic kingdoms of Oerth, placing the silver dragon kingdom from the Yatils to the Barrier Peaks, and the red dragon kingdom from the Hellfurnaces to the Barrier Peaks, and the two species battling in the middle. Volo's Guide to Monsters has a red dragon starting the war (Garyx, who appears as a god in 2nd and 3rd edition's Draconomicon; the Grand History of the Realms said this was an avatar of Garyx), which fits geographically with a giant kingdom centered in Geoff, Sterich, and probably the Yeomanry and Ull. The half-ogres in Ull might trace some of their ancestry to degenerate descendants of the primal giant kingdom, come to think of it, and I thought the Ulsprues might be a good place for cyclopskin.

    Anyway, ideas for your cloud giant bard:

    1. To get a giant on the throne of Sterich through non-violent means. Maybe seducing the marchioness and giving her a half-giant son?
    2. To locate the bones of Garyx (or another ancient red dragon, like Ashardalon) so that he can desecrate them.
    3. Peace between the humans and giants in general, with a giant kingdom accepted as a political entity by Keoland and its satellite states.
    4. He wants to burn it all down. The downfall of both human and giant realms. Pure anarchy replacing them.
    5. He just wants a bardic college with himself as headmaster and his giant followers as students and teachers there. He wants the marchioness (or any other available patron) to pay to build one.
    6. He wants to kill Tiamat.
    7. He wants to reunite Annam and Ulaa as a couple, believing this will heal the strife between giantkind.
    8. He's spinning a complex web of intrigue in which people owe him favors, which he has them repay by doing certain favors for others, who in exchange do certain favors for still others, and the chain goes on and on, encompassing giants, dragons, humans, demons, and the player characters, finally ending when a PC brings him a sandwich. That's all he wanted. If you know a better way to get a sandwich, he'd love to hear about it.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:20 pm  

    I loved your suggestions about seducing the Marchioness and establishing the bardic school. I decided to give him levels in the Master of Masks prestige class from Complete Scoundrel too. I've made him a worshipper of both Memnor and Diancastra (from Monster Mythology), as her devil-may-care persona feels akin to his and the tale of her apotheosis by Annam would make a great tale to share with the party.

    The more I thought about seducing the Marchioness, with the intent to impregnate her and establish their child as the lawful ruler of Sterich, the more questions I had on it. Even if he could impersonate some Sheldomar royalty, any sort of illusion spell (disguise self, hat of disguise) would be immediately discovered as soon as she touched him. So that leaves polymorph spells, I think.

    Would the child of this union have characteristics of the unpolymorphed father? I guess that's how it works with dragons, right?

    Is there any other tricksy way he might accomplish this?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:34 am  

    Diancastra is known for seducing people in order to convince them to teach her magic. The biggest Greyhawk connection for her is the subtle reference to Lyzandred (the lich-king obsessed with puzzles) in her description.
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