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    Canonfire :: View topic - The colonization of Ginsel
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    The colonization of Ginsel
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:41 pm  
    The colonization of Ginsel

    Roger E. Moore, in his essay "Gates in the World of Greyhawk," included some ideas about Ginsel, a planet in Oerth's solar system detailed in the Spelljammer sourcebook Greyspace.

    This thread has more thoughts by Moore on expanding Greyspace, particularly Ginsel.

    Ginsel is a world of scheming merchants and small, feuding states. In "Gates in the World of Greyhawk," Moore suggested it was settled by people of Oerth in multiple waves of colonization:

    Roger E. Moore wrote:
    (Another Annoying Side Note: Personally, I think Ginsel was settled in large part by folk from Oerth. Some of them might even be Suloise who long ago used gates or spelljammers to set up colonies for their empire; the colonies then became independent after the empire was wiped out. Maybe the Baklunish attacked and partially destroyed Suel colonies on Ginsel during the Big One all those centuries ago, but the population recovered. Later arrivals from other Crystal Spheres may have settled on Ginsel and developed other kingdoms, provoking angry responses from the bad-tempered, resource-hungry Suel and leading to the uneasy and treacherous peace that exists on Ginsel today. Maybe "ginsel" means "colony" in Ancient Suloise.) Onward, now:


    From the Ashes briefly mentioned an ancient Suloise portal known as the Null, "a universal gate to all known planes" located somewhere in what is now the Sea of Dust. The Suel could have used the Null to colonize Ginsel and the Baklunish could have used Tovag Baragu to attack them there during the war.

    Then in "Discovered: Some of Roger Moore's SJ Notes:"

    Roger E. Moore wrote:
    I'm working up a history for Ginsel in which it was colonized in two periods, first by Suloise from Oerik, on Oerth, then by Oeridians. Each group brought its gods with it.


    The latest wave, the Oeridian wave, happened according to Moore "in the last few hundred years" using "long-lasting magical gates." I think this is problematic: long-lasting magical gates, big and prominent enough to allow hordes of colonists to travel through them within recent history, would probably have a greater influence on Oerth's culture than I'd be comfortable with, and would also suggest a higher-magic setting than I see the World of Greyhawk. One solution would be to make the travel one-way, either through the disappearance of the city of Empyrea in Aquaria or perhaps even something to do with the mists of Ravenloft. Another possibility might be to have a slower trickle of adventurers through a portal in the deeper levels of a dungeon, for example Castle Greyhawk. Or maybe there's some other reason the traffic only went in one direction. Maybe the Oeridians escaped from some demonic prison in the Abyss rather than traveling directly from Oerth. It doesn't say the "long-lasting gates" were on Oerth, after all.

    It's also true that I have no idea whether Roger Moore wrote the text in "Some of Roger Moore's SJ Notes" first or "Gates in the World of Greyhawk" first. Regardless, there seems to be some revision going on there, with one source emphasizing mostly just the Suel, with subsequent settlers mostly arriving from other spheres via spelljamming, and the other source mentioning both the Suel and Oeridians.

    I actually found a possible answer to this in the adventure "The House on Summoner Court," written by Roger E. Moore and appearing in Shadis Magazine and in the Oerth Journal #7.

    "The House on Summoner Court" features an appearance by an NPC with a cubic gate created 400-500 years ago before it fell into the possession of a wizard of the Great Kingdom. The cubic gate leads to six different locations, one for each side of the cube:

    • One of the Star Cairns in the Cairn Hills. The Star Cairns were, according to the adventure module The Star Cairns, created by a Great Kingdom wizard called Murtaree and his associates beginning in 169 CY (around 400 years ago). It seems very possible the cubic gate was created by Murtaree or one of his allies.

    • A rugged, forested location on a world somewhere within Greyspace. Moore suggested the following possible locations: Luna, the Grinder, Ginsel, or Greela. Found near the location is an old, ruined cache of armor, weapons, clothing, and food of Great Kingdom manufacture, as well as likely ancient ruins or strange dungeon complexes.

    • A ruined city in far Western Oerik, tens of thousands of years old, with no historical connection to the peoples of the Flanaess.

    • An extradimensional room with stone walls, 80 feet in diameter.

    • One of Iggwilv's lairs in the Yatil Mountains.

    • A demiplane, possibly created by Zagyg.



    The 3.5 description of the cubic gate specifies it transfers its users to random points on a plane, but this wasn't necessarily the case in previous editions. It might only mean that the point is random for those who find the cubic gate (which is to say, the user can't control where the gate opens, only the original creator of the item can, at the time of its creation), since gate spells open to the precise points their casters desire.

    The connection to Iggwilv and possible connection to Luna mean the cubic gate may have been intended to tie in to Roger E. Moore's module Return of the Eight, which featured both of those. It might imply that Iggwilv created the cubic gate, but it might also mean that Iggwilv owned the item at one point and thought it would be convenient to have a lair at one of its six destinations. Iggwilv wasn't the original architect of the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, after all; Tsojcanth was, and Iggwilv might not have been the first to explore Tsojcanth's legacy.

    The connection to a Great Kingdom mage and possible connection to ruins on Ginsel suggest another possibility: was this (and possibly other, similar cubic gates) the method by which Oeridians colonized Ginsel in recent centuries? Although Murtaree was himself of Suel descent, the Great Kingdom is primarily of Oeridian heritage and the cubic gate seems to have passed into other hands after its initial creation. Cubic gates might not be the most efficient way to transfer large numbers of people, but a few powerful, conquest-minded colonists might be all it took to change Ginsel's political landscape.
    CF Admin

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    Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:38 pm  

    Rip---

    Do we have anything like a comprehensive listing of permanent gates in Greyhawk?

    ISTR there being mention of a gates map in some modules or perhaps Ivid that suggested some NPCs and/or organizations had started to map out the connections between gates, magical pools, et al.

    Allan.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:05 am  

    I've posted this here before, but rather than hunt it down I'll repost it in this thread.

    Note that the Temple of Zagyg from Treasures of Greyhawk isn't necessarily in the City of Greyhawk itself (it just says it's in a city; Greyhawk seems likely given Zagig Yragene's history). Some of these locations aren't fixed, and some (especially the ones from Dungeon #4, Dungeon #10, Dragon #100, and I11) may not be on Oerth at all, but they all have at least a tenuous connection to the Greyhawk setting. Well, maybe not I11, which is more closely linked with Mystara, but I included it anyway.

    Most of the unsourced quotes are from From the Ashes or Greyhawk Adventures.

    S4, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
    - The Dark Labyrinth
    - Armored Automatons
    - Canyon of Centaurs
    - Hall of Pentacles

    Castle Greyhawk (various sources)
    - Isle of the Ape
    - Dungeonland
    - Fraz-urb'luu's plane
    - mirrorgate to Uerth (The Orb of Opposition)
    - portal to Ravenloft
    - portal to the Barrier Peaks
    - demiplanes of the Ring of Five
    - Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure (DMG p. 112)
    - Greek mythology world (DMG p. 112)
    - Barsoom
    - cursed scroll to Starship Warden (Dragon #17)
    - countless other possiblities, including the portals to Eternal Autumn, Demiplane of Flowers, Mumbai, Nessus, Limbo, Plane of Silly and Unused Monsters, and so on from WG7.

    City of Greyhawk
    - Odd Alley
    - Heward's house
    - World Serpent Inn (through the Wild Goose Tavern)
    - Locked box in the Temple of Zagyg leads to the Maze of Zagyg on the Ethereal Plane (Treasures of Greyhawk)

    Rel Mord
    - Portal to Weird Way in Castle Fizziak (Night Arrant). "Instead of coming safely into the room that Lord Fizziak's mage had prepared for such travelers, Gord, Chert, Maheal, and the rest were suddenly dropped unceremoniously into the Great Hall."

    Dorakaa (Iuz the Evil)
    - "In the north wing of [Iuz's] palace, the Blackspear Chamber is Iuz's Gate to the Abyss. Fiends are summoned through it and upon their return to the Abyss, the powerful nexus strengthens them so that effects such as barkskins, stoneskins, and enhanced magic resistance benefit the fiends for ld100 days after their return to the lower planes."

    Fleichshriver (Iuz the Evil)
    - "Finally, Fleichshriver has a gate to the Abyss which can only be utilized if an Archmage or High priestess is present."

    Onyxgate (Ivid the Undying)
    - "Since the site radiates the presence of conjuration/summoning magic strongly, it is clear that some form of gate to the Abyss must lie beneath the surface... Worse still, there are persistent rumors that a dark magical artifact is responsible for the gate, Xaene's inscrutable hand is at work in having placed it here."

    The Malachite Throne (Ivid the Undying)
    - "Once per week, if the correct command word is uttered, the throne can be used to open a gate to the uppermost of the Nine Hells. But it provides no protection against any being entering through that gate, and there is a 5% chance per use of bringing insanity to the person opening the gate."

    The Causeway of Fiends (Ivid the Undying)
    - "During the fullness of Celene, fiends of many kinds stalk the causeway. Tanar'ri and baatezu rend at each other, tearing each other apart. They gleefully attack anything foolish enough to approach within a half-mile or so of the causeway. The fiends appear to be bound to that distance, however, and cannot travel farther inland. Usually, but a handful of fiends will appear at full moon. Very rarely—perhaps once every 80 years or so—countless numbers of lemures, manes, dretches, and least fiends of all kinds will appear as great legions driven on by a few greater fiends."

    Sea of Dust
    - "Ancient Suloise documents in Greyhawk mention a magical portal named The Null somewhere in the Sea of Dust-a place that is a universal gate to all known planes. It is said to be guarded by golems, summoned extraplanar creatures, stone sphinxes that test the wisdom of those who would dare travel using its magic, and more." (From the Ashes)
    - Lendor's Matrix? Is this the same as The Null? (The Scarlet Brotherhood)
    - A rumored Empyreal Citadel connecting Oerth to the Upper Planes. (Warriors of Heaven, 11)

    Welkwood
    - The Faerie Court of Rings

    Glorioles
    - The Crypts of Iron Souls

    Stark Mounds
    - Mines of Dumathoin

    Corusks
    - portal to alternate Material Plane, possibly the world of the Kalevala.

    Lortmils
    - Moonarch of Sehanine

    Gull Cliffs
    - Blood Obelisk of Aerdy

    Adri Forest (Ivid the Undying)
    - portal to the City of the Summer Stars in the Coldwood

    Mace and Talisman of Krevell (Ivid the Undying)
    - Creates a gate to Nerull's plane once a week, and to the Negative Material Plane once a month.

    Mounds of Dawn
    - "In the depths of the Citadel are passages leading through the Yatils, entries to the underdark, portals to the Elemental Planes, and even (one-way) teleportation links to other mountain ranges."

    Sulhaut Mountains
    - "Many beings from the plane of elemental Earth prowl the valley, including dao of exceptional intelligence. It is highly likely that a gate to the plane of elemental Earth is somewhere in the area. "
    - Vortices to the Quasielemental Plane of Lightning during storm season

    Tenser's Tower
    - Tenser's defenses include "planar gates woven into descending nets"

    Carahast's Caves of Sleep
    - "Dotting the caves are what scholars have termed microgates to the Negative Material Plane"

    Abbor-Alz
    - Lyzandred's tomb is a demiplane.
    - portal to the location of a segment of the Rod of Seven Parts in the Eternal Storm of the Wind Dukes.

    Hestmark Highlands
    - Belching Vortex of Leuk-O

    Nellix Town
    - City of Dar-Kesh Anam

    Irongate
    - portal to Mitrik created by the Artificer's Union with Elayne Mystica and Bigby
    - The World Serpent Inn, accessible through Helkam's Pit

    Mitrik
    - portal to Irongate

    Burning Cliffs (Greyhawk Adventures)
    - portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire near the City of Brass in the Burning Cliffs

    Icegate (Iuz the Evil)
    - "Icegate is an elliptical, interdicted cyst lying below a complex, mazed dungeon level said to be beholder- infested. It is whispered to have a gate capable of bringing forth gelugon baatezu from the Nine Hells, and to have been sacked by Oeridian servants of Pholtus and Heironeous some three hundred years ago."

    The Flaming Mirror of Tenh (Greyhawk Adventures)
    - portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire

    Tapestry of Ekbir (Greyhawk Adventures)
    - "The tapestry was intended to be a gate from Ekbir to the lower planes for disposal of its worst criminals. It is rumored, however, that the tapestry actually opens into a previously undiscovered plane and not one of the lower planes, although the landscape is bleak enough."

    Tovag Baragu
    - portal to Vecna's prison-realm on the Plane of Ash
    - portals to Keoland in various eras in history
    - portal to the Pleistocene Epoch
    - "One of the most frequent is a glimpse of a great lakeside city, usually at night. Another is of a verdant plain crowded with the peculiar mammalian life which may be found on occasion near the Sulhauts. More rarely one may see or hear regions which must surely be those of the Outer Planes."
    - Ravenloft (Die Vecna Die!)
    - ...etc. Tovag Baragu could lead anywhere, really.

    Csipros Erd
    - Likely a natural vortex to the Choking Gale between the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze and the Quasielemental Plane of Steam.

    Castle Maure
    - Lost City of the Elders (via the Tome of the Black Heart)
    - "Warlock’s Walk differs from any of the other dungeon levels in that it links to several demiplanes through four distinct portals." (Oerth Journal #23): Demiplane of Contingent Probabilities, Hollowwalk, Demiplane of Ambivalent Fury, Demiplane of Gloomwalk, The Solemn Vale.

    The Star Cairns
    - "During a critical point in their research, the first two wizards tested their findings simultaneously, creating an overlapping effect that interacted with the coincidental crash of the meteor in the Abbor-Alz; the cairn and all of its inhabitants were pulled into a juncture between the Astral, Ethereal and Prime Material planes... The cairn itself wanders between three phases - Ethereal, Border Ethereal and Astral - swinging like a pendulum between them every half-hour to an hour."

    Amedio Jungle
    - The Starry Mirror is a magic item created by the spell weavers of Vaprak's Voice. It resembles a pentagon-shaped mirror that distorts that which it reflects in an unsettling way, dotted with shimmering patches of star-like lights. It connects to the Plane of Mirrors and, originally, to a constellation of four other mirrors, although only one of the portals within still works today. The Starry Mirror can be passed through by anyone; it feels like a vertical surface of cold liquid. The spell weavers used the device to travel between five different locations in their ancient empire (Dungeon #104, 72-76).

    Dim Forest
    - Rift to the Plane of Shadow (Dragon #418)

    Underdark
    - Portal to the Abyss in the Fane of Lolth
    - Portal to the Plane of Fire in the compound of the Female Fighters Society in Erelhei-Cinlu (Dead Gods)
    - Nearby svirfneblin know of a vortex to the Elemental Plane of Earth (Dead Gods)
    - a portal to the plane of Water, where Blibdoolpoolp dwells, in a shrine of the kuo-toa many miles distant

    The Infinite Staircase
    - A doorway to the Infinite Staircase in in the otherwise unattested tiny village of Certhis on Oerth in the wine cellar of the settlement's only inn, The Good Rest (Tales From the Infinite Staircase)

    Sigil
    - a portal to Sigil in a cave several hours from the Traveler's Rest, an inn maintained by worshipers of Fharlanghn. This appears in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, though the exact location of the inn is up to the DM.
    - An oblong shoal of rocks in the Nyr Dyv acts as a portal to the Seafarer's Arch in Sigil's Ditch, if the gate key is known (Polyhedron #137).

    Fluffy Goes to Heck (Dungeon #4)
    - portal to Heck. Sort of connected to Greyhawk via WG7.

    Threshold of Evil (Dungeon #10)
    - various portals. Sort of connected to Greyhawk via WG7 (the death slaad Zgotar appears in both). Includes portals to Limbo, Pandemonium, Dragonrealm, the Astral Plane, the Plane of Fire, Plane of Earth, Negative Material Plane, an unknown forested material plane, and a material plane ruled by a gynosphinx pharoah.

    R3 Egg of the Phoenix
    - The Terminal of Planes leads to the Positive Material, Negative Material, Prime Material, Ethereal, and the four cardinal elemental planes

    C3 Lost Island of Castanamir
    - The sinks in the kitchen drain into another plane. Probably the Ethereal, since that was Castanamir's specialty. The rooms on the island are connected by magical portals.

    I7, Baltron's Beacon
    - Teleportation chamber leads to the Isle of Banburn, a volcanic mountain, and elsewhere.

    I11, Needle
    - A magic obelisk is a portal to the moon

    Tomb of Horrors
    - The green demon mouth leads to a demiplane called The City That Waits if the key, a pinch of dust from Acererak's remains, is brought along.

    Baton of Retribution (Trithereon's artifact)
    - Barren desert of purple rock and green skies
    - Swamp of milk-colored water with red plants
    - Featureless plain of gray and black whose ground glows as if it were translucent fire and whose heavens are black and opaque.

    Gate Island (Dragon #100)
    - Battersea Park. London, England

    The Vast Gate (The Gates of Firestorm Peak)
    - Leads to the Far Realm. Connected to Oerth via reference to its duergar colony in Return to White Plume Mountain.

    In general, vortices to the various inner planes will be found in areas of intense elemental concentration: volcanoes, storms, tornadoes, deserts,the hearts of mountains, the bottom of the sea, and so on. The Sea of Dust probably has vortices to the planes of Ash and Dust.

    Astral conduits: (Manual of the Planes (1st edition), page 74: "Conduits are also called wormholes or gates. They usually have one mooring in the Prime Material and the other in a specific location in an outer plane... The Prime Material end is often a temple complex or other location dedicated to a particular power, while the other terminus is in a part of the realm ruled by that Power... the gates are often guarded, and the terminus location may not be friendly to the traveler."
    CF Admin

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    Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:20 am  

    Danke! :D
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    Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:09 am  

    Don't forget Fiendish Codex I's gate from the Demonweb Pits to Qualtaine Square in Istivin, Sterich. Unclear if it's one-way or two-.
    CF Admin

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    Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:03 am  
    Re: The colonization of Ginsel

    rasgon wrote:
    Roger E. Moore, in his essay "Gates in the World of Greyhawk," included some ideas about Ginsel, a planet in Oerth's solar system detailed in the Spelljammer sourcebook Greyspace.

    This thread has more thoughts by Moore on expanding Greyspace, particularly Ginsel.


    I wasn't aware of these additional pieces of content, Rip---thanks for pointing to them! Do you know if they are in addition to the discussions in the Best of AOL folders, or just content extracted from those files?
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    GreySage

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    Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:05 pm  

    Edmund: I hadn't thought to check Fiendish Codex I, thanks. I'd forgotten there was more than one portal to the Demonweb on Oerth. Also, I'm sure there are a number of portals in Dungeon Magazine that I've missed, and Planescape has a number of undefined portals to the Prime Material Plane that could connect to Oerth, but don't have an official placement there.

    Grodog: Blackdaggr said he downloaded those notes himself, back in the day. I don't know if they're archived anywhere else.
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:45 pm  

    There's a portal in the Whispering Cairn near Diamond Lake, the Black Seal, which leads to the tomb of the Wind Duke Icosiol near White Plume Mountain (Dungeon #129).

    The article "Game Wizards: The Rod of Seven Parts" in Dragon #233 has suggestions for placing the scenarios in the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set on Oerth (and other TSR worlds). There's not a lot to go on here, but the pocket dimension containing the sixth segment of the Rod is located within the ruins of a temple to an evil god. Dragon #233 suggests it might have been a temple of Nerull in "any city but Greyhawk. Somewhere in the Great Kingdom would be most appropriate." I think the Haunts neighborhood in Eastfair would be perfect, with the backstory that locals think the temple was destroyed by devils in the service of Hextor (Rod of Seven Parts just says "a rival deity.")

    The gate to Pandemonium in the last chapter of Rod of Seven Parts is at least 500 miles from the temple. Dragon #233 suggests Castle Greyhawk or the Valley of the Mage as good places to put the gate. This might be a good place to use the Eternal Storm of the Wind Dukes, though: if a gateway to Pandemonium is in the center it would certainly explain why there's a permanent windstorm and manifestations of chaos.

    Tenser's fortress, as described in Dungeon #130, has paintings of locations throughout the world enchanted to aid in teleportation. These aren't gates or portals, as such, but if you concentrate on them you can use greater teleport to travel to the location depicted, even if you haven't been there. You still need to know the spell, of course, or have a scroll to cast it from.

    The Adventure Begins says that StoneRing near Greyhawk is a gate. "The StoneRing, under certain astronomical conditions, can become an interplanar gate to various elemental planes and demiplanes of unusual nature. A special prayer must be said by a druid to open the gate at the correct time." This article on the Old Faith says that megalithic circles and trilithons are portals to pathways through the Ethereal Plane called the Ways of the World.
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