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Fallen Heironean: John McCain

 
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Lanthorn
GreySage


Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 2360
Location: SW WA state (Highvale)

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Fallen Heironean: John McCain Reply with quote

Friends,

This post is NOT meant to start any sort of political discussion (those tend to get heated), but rather to -

1) Honor the patriotic service to our nation from Senator John McCain. May he rest in peace at last.

2) In hearing so many tributes about Senator McCain and his long, distinguished military and political service to our country, as well as footage taken from personal interviews, it occurs to me that this man is a template for anyone following the code of Heironeous, the Archpaladin. McCain seemed to embody to virtues of honor, integrity, justice, service, heroism, and patriotic duty to country. If these are not the very meat and drink of Heironean principles, then I am at a loss.

Thank you Senator McCain.

-Lanthorn, humbled

(even a person whose Avatar is the Rune of Pursuit can deeply respect those who follow those principles of the Archpaladin)
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Mystic-Scholar
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Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 2757
Location: South-Central Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you're trying to start trouble. Evil Grin
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lamashtu
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Jan 13, 2016
Posts: 92
Location: SF, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Fallen Heironean: John McCain Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:

2) In hearing so many tributes about Senator McCain and his long, distinguished military and political service to our country, as well as footage taken from personal interviews, it occurs to me that this man is a template for anyone following the code of Heironeous, the Archpaladin. McCain seemed to embody to virtues of honor, integrity, justice, service, heroism, and patriotic duty to country. If these are not the very meat and drink of Heironean principles, then I am at a loss.


Sure okay, I'll bite.

Thanks ever so much for abandoning your early skepticism toward war and adventurism in foreign policy. The blood spilled and treasure wasted was totally worth it.

You tireless support of security theater and restrictions on citizens freedoms was a beacon of liberty in the world. Without people like you, our great Drug War would have failed miserably - our prisons wouldn't be full of non-violent criminals; our neighbors, friends, and allies would not have been destabilized, and the 4th Amendment wouldn't be the hilarious joke it's become.

John McCain was hardly the worst of our political class, but he was no saint. He made the world a lesser place at least of often as he improved it. He was willing to use the coercive power of government to force people to behave in ways he preferred - and did not care one whit whether it was reasonable or moral to do so.

He was curmudgeonly (which I like) but often strikingly dishonest in his approach to facts and statistics. He was happy to get the credit for cancelling wasteful military spending - but never made a substantive effort to fix a fundamentally broken procurement system. He often only did the right thing after having exhausted all other options.

I'm not interested in honoring someone like this, any more than I am in smearing his memory. He did not embody honor, integrity, and justice. The rest I find debatable as well - but I can see room for much nuance in discussing it.

If there has to be a record in this place dealing with him, I won't let this puffery be the only one.
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Lanthorn
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Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 2360
Location: SW WA state (Highvale)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess you and I will have to civilly disagree, and everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can and will accept that as well as acknowledge your right to share it.

-Lanthorn
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Sheepdog
Adept Greytalker


Joined: Apr 21, 2013
Posts: 305
Location: Minnesota

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He served our country and face hell, I am certain, as a POW. For that I tip my hat to him.

Unfortunately, he lost me politically years ago.

Like many (all) of us, he had many admirable qualities and some less so. Anyone in the political atmosphere will automatically have those that do not agree with them regardless of where they stand. Nature of the beast.

I will join you Lanthorn in a respectable farewell; politics aside.
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Lanthorn
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Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 2360
Location: SW WA state (Highvale)

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Sheepdog, and well written. Duly noted, and I respect your fair and honest post.

-Lanthorn
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xo42
Journeyman Greytalker


Joined: Jan 11, 2009
Posts: 178
Location: Montgomery, Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will tread carefully here, since I am still on active duty and have to be careful about what I say regarding any government official. First I agree with all of the posts on this topic to some degree. He was definitely no saint (no politician in history ever has been), but he was also definitely not the worst career politician or policymaker the country has had in recent decades. He should have been honored for his service and sacrifice without question, but at the same time I find it disingenuous that so many people from the left side of the political spectrum suddenly became such ardent supporters of his policies within days.

He had my support during the 2008 Presidential campaign, and for the most part I have supported his opinions/votes on major legislation for the past 20+ years as well. I appreciated his ability to be pragmatic and reach across the political aisle from time to time and I liked that he was a moderate conservative on most issues. His numerous disagreements with the President over the last 2+ years were obviously personal disagreements more than political ones, although I think he tried to oppose the President on some issues even though he would have supported them from another person.

My problem with both these individuals these last years is that they let a personal dislike of each other spill over onto the national stage and even worse spill over into official votes and policies. The actions of both were detrimental to the country and as always in these cases ego came before duty for both. As a member of the military I always appreciated the Senator's support for the military, even when I didn't agree with his positions. However, getting back to Lanthorn's original point that he is a great example of Heironeous, I would disagree. I think he's more akin to Trithereon; chaotic (but good), vengeful at times, and was sometimes willing to fight for the wrong reasons.
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Lanthorn
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Joined: Sep 09, 2009
Posts: 2360
Location: SW WA state (Highvale)

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, let me thank you for your service to our country.

I don't see McCain's tactics as those of a CG follower of Trithereon. To me, his actions throughout his career, have been more Lawful. Additionally, his overall personality struck me as Heironean. During his campaign, he didn't want smear tactics to denigrate his opponent (a Trithereonite likely wouldn't care), stood up for Obama at a public forum with great dignity and integrity (honor!), and he has publicly admitted his wrong-doings (humility, courage, honesty). When he was captive and allowed to be released, he refused to go because of his birthright and station because other POWs, by the rules, should go first since they were in captivity longer (again, honor). Finally, McCain was devoted to country with staunch national pride and valued honorable service. You and I can disagree on this, but I see McCain as a Heironean. Yes, he's flawed, but that's because he is mortal.

thanks for your input,

Lanthorn
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jamesdglick
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 1153
Location: Clarksville, TN

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:

...This post is NOT meant to start any sort of political discussion (those tend to get heated)...


-Oh boy. Lanthorn. What have you done? Wisdom check!😉

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain

I certainly will join Lanthorn in hailing John McCain's (CAPT USN ret.) military service. I will point out that 1) I don't know anyone who would have accepted that POW exchange deal from the North Vietnamese (I sure wouldn't have), and 2) even if he had, the Pentagon wouldn't have accepted it, and he would have had a lot to answer for. I also think (to his credit) that he wouldn't have given his torturers the satisfaction they would have gotten from such a propaganda coup.

But I don't think that McCain's military service was the reason so many hailed him during his funeral.

xo42 wrote:

...I find it disingenuous that so many people from the left side of the political spectrum suddenly became such ardent supporters of his policies within days...


-Oh, you noticed, but this went back to 2000, and mysteriously waxed and waned with McCain's willingness to make some nasty remark against someone the left wasn't fond of, or to "Work with his Colleagues on the other Side of the Aisle" (i.e., pander to them if he thought it be popular). He seemed to enjoy the positive attention the rather non-Heironean media lavished on him for this behavior.

When he became the standard bearer of the Elephant party in 2008, his reward for this from his supposed friends was to call him a racist and a warmonger, while blaming him for everything from the recession to the burning of the USS Forrestal. He seemed surprised. Duh. Wisdom check. Did he expect gratitude for being a tool from a distinctly non- (or rather anti-)Heironean bunch of people? He nevertheless continued in the same fashion until his death, which did get him hypocritical paeans from the same types who were happy to kick him in the nuts in 2008 when he was temporarily in the way of their plans. I wonder why this made him happy.

Lanthorn wrote:
...During his campaign, he didn't want smear tactics to denigrate his opponent...


-No, McCain always seemed to get better media coverage when attacking people on his Side of the Aisle. He got much better coverage from the Washington Post and NBC when he did that.

Those are some of my observations. If anyone really wants to read any more of my opinions on the political side of this, feel free to email me. I don't think I'll have to check my email box.

Back to the Flanaess!

xo42 wrote:
... getting back to Lanthorn's original point that he is a great example of Heironeous, I would disagree. I think he's more akin to Trithereon; chaotic (but good), vengeful at times, and was sometimes willing to fight for the wrong reasons.


-I was sort of thinking the same thing, but why do you think that a Trithereonite would be more likely to fight for "the wrong reasons" than a Heironean? They're both Good. Your alignment bias might be showing. 😉

On the other hand...

lamashtu wrote:
...Thanks ever so much for abandoning your early skepticism toward war and adventurism in foreign policy...


-War and adventurism would not necessarily be incompatible with being a good Heironean. War against Evil (and to some extent, Chaos) is part of the creed. I wonder how many Furyondian subjects would be less than thrilled with King Belvor's declaration of eternal war against Iuz...

You could probably create an interesting NPC inspired by McCain, maybe one captured during Iuz's conquest of the Shield Lands, and released as part of the treaty of Greyhawk? Who would be the people from The Other Side of the Aisle he'd be working with? In Gygaxian fashion, he'd probably get named Sir Kaynmik. 😉

I wonder what McCain would have thought being assessed in terms of an FRPG?
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