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    Canonfire :: View topic - No Suel Greater Deities?
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    No Suel Greater Deities?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:46 am  
    No Suel Greater Deities?

    Does it make any sense that there are no Suel greater deities, circa FtA, as Carl Sargent has it in FtA?

    This is not FtA bashing but I have never seen any discussion on this point.
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    GVD
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:47 pm  

    It has always been my understanding that the lack of Greater Gods in the Suel Pantheon was a reflection of the lesser priority placed on religion by the Suel when compared with the arcane arts, in contradistinction to the Baklunish and the Flan cultures. For instance, wasn't the Invoked Devastation arcane in nature, while the Bakluni retaliated with the cleric-induced Rain of Colourless Fire?
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:55 pm  

    I ain't saying anything new when I mention 1E's D&DG only had Greater, Lesser, and demi-gods, sometimes heroes. GH of course followed this pattern with their pantheons, except for the curious Cyndor who is both greater or lesser. Now was the shift in later editions really Sargents move or was there a prevailing 'wisdom' in D&D in general toward midddle of the road gods? Did FR use intermediate gods before Sargent, for example? Now of course in 3.x we can quantify a god's status by 'divine rank'. Whee.

    As to why there are now no greater suel gods is tricky. My opinion is that Sargent was more concerned with the setting details and just hacked his way through a revision of the pantheon 'lineup' to fit TSR's new divine ranking system without an eye as to balance among the racial subtypes. The best way to handle it is to use the 83 rankings and be happy or just FtA and be happy and don't try to reconcile them.

    My attempt to reconcile this shift in god-power is like this in any case:

    While worshipers=power has been debunked by the majority here, maybe a related idea to this could be one of lost prestige or self-demotion. The Suel in some regard lost alot prestige when their empire was destroyed and the migrations largely didn't go their way, or the decendants took to worshipping new gods (i.e. Vatun detracts from Kord). This could be coupled by the fact there are baklunish gods that no one knows of yet, since they probably were embarassed by the I.D. and just up and left! Anyhow, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say Lendor the progenitor for his pantheon has the power to bust himself, Wee Jas and Kord down a notch. For what purpose or ends? This can give the Suel people a chance to 'bounce back' and bring pride back to their gods. The Scarlet Brotherhood, the invading barbarians, heck Keoish imperialism can be arcing goals of the gods themselves. This of course is not a required move but a clever strategem to remain low key among the heavens, else all the Flan gods would all be busted to lesser by now for their worshipper's losses over the years.

    And if you like the 3E system of Divine Ranks, you can use what I loosely use and that is the static pool of divine rank points system. Imagine if you took every god in GH and gave them a DR from 0 to 20+ and total this number. That would be the 'Oerth limit'. Now gods can sponsor new gods and so forth by imparting some of their essence, or in game terms losing rank points. Much like any mortal character, gods can rise and be lowered in DR by their own personal plots/fates like deicide for Pyremius or imprisonment for Tharizdun. So to reconcile the shift from greater to more intermediates can be the rise in new gods and other wholly unknown circumstances that can only be tracked through divine rank. Have fun tearing that one up. Wink
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:51 pm  

    I never thought it made much sense, in particular for Lendor. You figure that being the progenitor of the pantheon would grant him greater status. Then add in that his portfolio is something as fundamentally important as Time. If Fate is enough to help make Istus a greater god, I figure Time is just as important and should make Lendor a greater god. So, IMC, Lendor is a greater god. I also have Wee Jas as a greater god as well.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:15 pm  

    Spugnoir wrote:
    I never thought it made much sense, in particular for Lendor. You figure that being the progenitor of the pantheon would grant him greater status. Then add in that his portfolio is something as fundamentally important as Time. If Fate is enough to help make Istus a greater god, I figure Time is just as important and should make Lendor a greater god. So, IMC, Lendor is a greater god.


    Ditto. Lendor should be a greater god. Wee Jas and Kord are the other formerly greater Suel deities, and their rank probably depends on how one views them, the Suel pantheon overall, and how gods gain and lose power. Personally I'm comfortable with Lendor as a greater and the other two as Intermediate powers, but have no real objections to making all 3 greater powers. Advancing Wee Jas without advancing Kord, however, wanders into the realm of the highly subjective -- great for an opinion, tough to defend.

    Cyndor is a problematic case. As the only "greater/lesser" deity, he's the exception to the rule. It can be argued that Cyndor represents the existence of an "intermediate power" rank in the '83 boxed set, but a differing (and more logical) explanation to my mind is that Cyndor is in transition (though in which direction is uncertain), and the "greater/lesser" status is a transitional or active one, rather than the static and fixed "greater", "lesser", and "demi" ranks accorded the rest of the deities. Given the unique listing, and the appropriateness of his portfolio to a cyclical "waxing" and "waning" power, I think it makes sense.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:33 pm  

    So, did anyone ever nail down what makes a god divine?

    If it's not number or enthusiasm of worshippers, has anyone come up with a "grand unification theorem" of divinity?

    Perhaps they draw power from various sources, some of which are worshippers, some of which are natural portfolios (god I hate that word), some of which are innate abilities (Thariz-over-done)?

    I'm just a part-timer here, but I think this question will determine all the others. Sorry if I'm asking something that's decided and tabled.

    Telas
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:10 pm  

    IMO, it's a combination of portfolio + worshippers. The more "primal" the portfolio, the more powerful the god, and the less worshippers matter. More esoteric portfolios need worshippers to bolster the baseline power. Lendor, Istus, Beory, Boccob, and Nerull are all "primal portfolio" deities that don't really need worshippers.

    On the other hand, Flidgit, the goddess of rockdoves, desperately needs her 4 clerics.

    On a tangent, the Suel pantheon has no deity of life, interestingly enough, and prior to the RoCF, no deity of death. Maybe the Suel didn't view life and death as singular events, but as part of an ongoing ... argh, the words aren't coming. Too tired.

    Basicly, life & death were functions of time, not stand-alone events outside of time. This folds those into Lendor's portfolio, explains the lack of pre-RoCF life or death deities, and gives Lendor a whopping lot of power suitable to his stature in the pantheon. (And "life" still doesn't need to be noted on Lendor's portfolio because in his view, it's a subset of time.)

    Cheers
    Nell.
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    Mon Feb 21, 2005 9:22 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    IMO, it's a combination of portfolio + worshippers. The more "primal" the portfolio, the more powerful the god, and the less worshippers matter.


    Exactly how my thoughts run. And why so many war and weather gods are powerful. War, because there's no worshipper more fervent than a scared soldier. Weather, because it affects so damn many people.

    Nellisir wrote:
    On the other hand, Flidgit, the goddess of rockdoves, desperately needs her 4 clerics.


    Ever read Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods"? A most excellent study of gods and worshippers, and how one influences another.

    I must confess that my GH campaign is inordinately influenced by Tolkien and Pratchett.... No wonder my players all have confused expressions.

    Telas
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:03 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    On a tangent, the Suel pantheon has no deity of life, interestingly enough, and prior to the RoCF, no deity of death. Maybe the Suel didn't view life and death as singular events, but as part of an ongoing ... argh, the words aren't coming. Too tired.


    Alternatively, one can look at the Kord/Phaulkon/Syrul trinity. Syrul, prior to her becoming the Mother of Lies, was a goddess of mines & the earth. Phaulkon is a sky-god. This gives us the fundamental joining of earth + sky = life in the form of the very "alive and loving it" Kord.

    Cheers
    Nell.
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