I agree with Anced on the marshy area, it makes an excellent military defence, particularly if you enemy is mounted.
As for refugees I think I will reduce the marsh a little around the south east gate and add in a shanty town.
On a side note, I will also move Hochoch across the Realstream, does this mean it moves out of Gran March altogether? _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
You're right. I must stop thinking of warfare as requiring 60-tons of diesel-powered death, close air support, artillery barrages, and infantry operations.
Swamp is good. At least in this context.
And while moving Hochoch would take it out of the March technically and legally, there is no one left to assert this position. And GM is providing protection to the city in this time of strife, so they are certainly not UNwelcome.
I'm sure that once Geoff is back on its feet, GM will happily return Hochoch to them. Happens all the time here on Earth. _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
Yabs, perhaps you will know more about this, but I recall that when York was first built the land was boggy requiring the use of planks or boardwalks between buildings. I don’t know if there are enough trees around, but that shanty is actually in the marsh, something like that might add some character.
Hello all, I am actually revising the population numbers right now. Anyone who saw them before may have noticed that there were only nine baronies
Well, once that is done, I will send out a spreadsheet and forward the population density map I promised Yabusama a month ago (it wasn't my fault, it was a time zone problem
In the mix of all of that we have the very question raised right here.. refugees. My thoughts are that the KoW and the Army wouldnt allow much in the way of refugees around Hookhill. This would be for several reasons:
1. It is the capital and they dont want the unwashed marring the decor.
2. They could pose a legitimate security risk, gathering outside the walls.
3. There is limited water here, so much so that they had to bring in water via an aquaduct.
4. Barony Valonn, in which sits Hookhill is really more of a military district, with limited foodstuffs. It is much more oriented towards horses. Bringing in the food is harder than moving the people.
5. The interior of the March has a much more benign enivronment, and there is sufficient population to offset the fairly massive number of refugees.
Thoughts on this idea, that the Military forces of the March and the Knights would insist that refugees move to the south and east?
Also, how many refugees are we talking about? There are none included in my current population stats. I would imagine that Geoff nearly emptied into GM and Keoland. Bissell probably produced a few, as did the Uleks.
This could greatly change the makeup of GM, as 50k people would be a 20% increase. There are 254K people. Let me know your thoughts.
I wasn't so much looking at traditional refugees, i.e. huddled, unwashed masses. But people of some influence or means that relocated from Geoff to safer lands, like Hookhill.
This would cause a bit of a population boom, and a subsequent shortage of housing inside the city walls. New housing would be built, but the 10-year-old city wall doesn't enclose the 2-year-old new community.
I was thinking that if Hookhill did not have the square footage within the walls, they would have a few options. One is build up, which would be limited to about 3 or 4 storeys. Two is build out, leading to suburbs of sorts. And three is turn the new folks away, which I can't see happening.
Of course, if Hookhill (and the defensive wall) was built with a far-sighted view of the future, there would be room within the walls to expand.
Thought I would bring that up. Not so much a refugee slum, but new construction that the city planners hadn't thought of 10 years ago... _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
One thing I would point out is that Hookhill is 360+ miles by road from Hochoch and the closest point of occupied land, which would take a horse and rider several days to travel, walking it would take even longer. First I would suggest that only the Rich refugee would actually get to Hookhill the poor one would have probably hung around Hochoch. The healthy and fit men would have been conscripted into the army which most would have agreed to willingly as a chance to fight to get their homeland back.
Bissel and Sterich have been liberated so many if any refugee were left would have moved back only those with worth while ventures would stay. Again that limits the number of refugees.
If there are shantytowns they are to north leftovers from the Ket invasion of Bissel. The richer folks would not be shantytowns but have established themselves some kind of decent home to the Southwest of Hookhill.
The Geoff refugee would mostly be around Hochoch, which is probably why Owen I wants to move his court to Hochoch as well as to re-establish Geoff’s ownership of Hochoch.
The invasion of Geoff was a massacre for the most part, I think we need to explore the number of refugees more closely.
How would they have travelled? They would not have gone through the Haunted Stark Mounds and if they did they then would be faced with the Rushmoors. They did not go through the Dim Forest far to dangerous. So that leaves a narrow 30-mile channel of land leading to Hochoch and the only known passage across the river. What a slaughter fest that would have been for the giants and their army, which did push all the way to Hochoch. Or they went into Keoland and once there why go to Gran March and especially Hookhill?
I am not against increasing Gran March population. I am suggesting though that less of them would be refugee then we would think and there would be a mix of refugees and immigrants form all surrounding lands looking for a fresh start or better opportunities in a sparsely populated land.
I like the lack of population in Gran March it gives more reason for the large army which is needed to protect their people from what is a dangerous place. Also it gives more opportunity for the players to carve out their own niche in Gran March creating the strongholds, attraching villagers and building an outpost if they wanted. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I agree about few (if any) refugees making the trip to Hookhill. But people with measureable coin in pocket would certainly see the financial opportunities east of the Dim Forest, especially if the Geoff government-in-exile is based in Hookhill. Money will want to be close to power.
These people have at least some money, so they won't settle for tents or shanty-towns. They'll want real homes, and will have the money to have them built. Everyone will want property inside the walls of Hookhill, but only in the nicest areas. So the rich areas of the city will get richer, and the poorest areas of Hookhill will be "too poor" for the relocating middle-class families.
So your thought about decent homes south-west of Hookhill makes sense, too. But again, I think these people would want to be as close to the city as possible. So maybe new construction outside of the walls is called for, but it is definitely dependent on Hookhill for services. I imagine this could be something like a middle-ages suburb.
These are pretty much middle- and upper-class settlers, not refugees. Yes, the military could turn them away to the south and/or east, but I think the Baron would like having the extra income around. And the money these people bring with them would help to offset the temporary strain their presence puts on the city's infrastructure.
I'm just thinking that if only half the population of Geoff escaped the giants, that's still about 35,000 people dumped somewhere. If even a thousand of those showed up in Hookhill, it would add 20% to that city's population.
I'm not sure about the nature of city-building, but if Hookhill wanted to absorb this moneyed population into their city (within the walls), could they? Would they jam houses in so that the city looked like downtown Heidelberg? Or would they start adding suburbs and turn Hookhill into a miniature Los Angeles? If they keep 1000 people with money waiting for homes, those people will find somewhere else to live and spend money.
Jeez, I'm starting a real estate firm, huh? Gimmie a gold jacket and call me Century 6! _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
This is exactly the discussion I was hoping to engender. A couple of thoughts on refugees... facts from our own world.
Many refugees just keep running... they are running from something, not to something.
Little problems like the Stark Mounds, the Rushmoors and the Dim Forest probably wouldnt have stopped many from trying. The survival rate may have been attrocious, but it seemed better than giants, at least when they are leaving.
Many people run away and never go back. So all of those refugees from Bissell are probably looking to become Settelers in Gran March.
And Firepower, you touched on it... the simple math of the Geoffite exodus, as well as the other nations account for significant increases in the Gran March population.
However, I think we can hold the line as follows: The Population of Gran March, i.e. those with permanent legal status is 254,000 +/-... what ever the LGG says. But we assume that this makes no effort to account for the Refugees. That way, we can simply work them as we decide appropriate. I also dont want to reduce the population even further by saying that this 254 number includes refugees. When you do that, it really starts becoming unfeasible to have that many people in the army. It just doesnt work... More than one fifth of the army really cannot be on active duty and have a functioning country.
I am not for dramatically increasing the population... this just allows us the creative license necessary to make sense of the existing canon.
The, we should compare the number of people in The Liberation of Geoff and the Original population of Geoff. We know that the Geoff Army fought for several weeks, so there was time to evacuate. How many died on the way? How many stayed behind. This will take a little research, but I am thinking that a large portion of Hethiye Barony is now being farmed and settled.
Looking at the Middle East and South Asia, refugees tend to cluster at the borders because their neighbors do not want them moving in but also because they want to go back eventually.
I have always thought that the canon population figures for GH, and that goes for GM, are absurdly low compared to real world figures. Reviewing Medieval Demographics Made Easy renewed that thought. However, I do not suggest that the numbers be significantly changed, but rather explained.
I think it has to be explained by monsters and characters. It has been suggested that the presence of monsters would make the small populations untenable. Monster killing, magic using characters will counter that. Why would not the populations then grow to a more realistic level and fill up all that empty space? Because it is not empty, it filled used by monsters, and because the monsters keep killing the locals.
I suggest the low population figures are a rough equilibrium given these conditions. I would think that would make for very high death, and by necessity birth, rates. Sex and violence, can’t go wrong there.
Getting back around to Geoffite refugees, under these conditions, I would say that GM would welcome them with open arms to a certain extent. They would not want them in Hookhill or any of their well-settled and protected areas, but they would love them to fill in the more dangerous areas. That would not just be the Rushmoors, etc., but virtually anywhere not within a couple of miles of an existing settlment. That would create new markets and buffer populations.
It would have other effects that might make GM have second thoughts about the open arms. Think about the Dark Age and other migrations. Giants bump the Geoffites, Geoffites bump what? Goblins? Bullywugs? Things would be disturbed for a while. Those wilderness encounter tables and encounter rates should take that into account.
Oh yeah, bringing that last post back around to mapping, I would think Geoffite refugee frontier fort/villages would start popping up. Perhaps most would be too small to note on a map, but some might not be. Also, some regions might be so heavily settled (relatively speaking in this low density world) that they deserve a separate or sub-political boundary designation.
A few more thoughts on the refugees, and how it relates to the mapping.
Population of Geoff before the invasion was 70,000. Figure 10% of that was immediate call-up of militia and the standing army... they died. 63,000 left. Ten percent of that were veterans or other folks with pointy sticks that bravely became speed bumps. About 57,000 left.
For every fighter killed, a civilian died as well, which can be explained as the giants hit a village, then ran into a military or resistance cell. Population is now down to around 44,000. There were a few losses crossing the Javan, but nothing significant. But another 10% were lost crossing into the Dim Forest, the Valley of the Mage, or points south where there were more invading troops. We'll call it 40,000 crossing the Javan.
Hochoch is the first major population center the refugees would have encountered, as it is north or west of the Realstream (at least I think that's what we decided). Hochoch did NOT fall to the giants, so we have to assume that it was a safer location than anything west of the Javan. And it is close to the border with GM. Figure 75% of the refugees decided to stay close to Hochoch, we're talking within sight of the city. 10,000 left.
Half of the remaining refugees stick close to the border, like Wolfsire said. So Mellit's Wharf, Orlane, and pretty much any arable land along the Hookhill-Hochoch road gets a bunch of refugee squatters. That's another 5,000 of the poor, unwashed masses. Maybe a few artisan-types in there, but not in significant numbers. These folks are farmers, herders, and ranchers.
So 5,000 folks move further away from the border. Figure 20% of them never make it out of the Rushmoors and the Dim Forest. Poof! 4,000 left. Figure 1,000 of those head south to Shiboleth, Locks Heath, etc. Another 1,000 head to Hookhill and so on. The remaining 2,000 keep moving, right into the Lortmils or Veluna or Keoland.
That's a massive population increase in the triangle formed by the Javan, the Realstream, and the Dim Forest. Hochoch at about 5,000 plus the 30,000 refugees. Add another 5,000 east of the Realstream, and GM is awfully busy all of a sudden. Keeping GM and Geoff seperate is going to become increasingly difficult once the first spring rolls around and these agricultural-based refugees start farming to feed themselves.
So I think that Audley and points west are going to have shanty towns, tent cities, and "swamp plank towns" (LOVE that!) pretty much anywhere there is already a population center. There are also going to be depressingly poor farmsteads everywhere the land can support it. GM military and law enforcement is going to be everywhere, and monsters are going to disappear overnight as any armed refugees look for "a little payback".
East of Audley, monsters come out of the swamp and forest, and are crushed by the GM cavalry with "home field advantage". Refugees can't just settle anywhere they want, as the monsters may get them, but the military will certainly move them. Rich refugees (settlers) are going to end up where their money means something, so the largest population centers see a disproportionate influx of settlers and coin.
Eastern Gran March has money, since they were not impacted by poor refugees but rich settlers. Nice, neat, and orderly. No shanty towns, but plenty of new construction to handle the population "boom" of about 2,000 people. This new construction is going to be very close to the big towns and cities, maybe even within the walls if there is room.
Western Gran March is broke, and there are refugees everywhere. The population east of the Realstream probably doubled in a few weeks, and the very light infrastructure couldn't handle it. The law and the military managed to keep the refugees contained, out of the swamp and forest, and fairly docile (if depressed). But they can't feed or house them, and that's created slums around small towns like Orlane and Audley, and even tent cities near Mellit's Wharf.
Hochoch is a disaster. It's something of a black hole for refugees, as those who stop here usually don't leave. If they can't support themselves, they end up stuck here, as they can't manage to get across the Realstream to the comparatively better conditions in Gran March. Death, disease, and despair are constant companions over here.
Now all of the above is from ONE COUNTRY (Geoff) crossing the river. If we throw in Sterich, that's going to compound the issues. Bissel from the north shouldn't be that big of a deal because the entire country isn't emptying out like Geoff, Sterich, etc.
But that's just how I see it. If that can be translated into the maps of the area, I think it would help the readers to visualize the chaos of the giant invasion. _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
Hey I'm only the muppet who draws the maps, but "swamp plank town" or rather village is added. _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Great! Well, I am hoping when I get back to have a population map of the various provinces showing pre refugee densities.
And I think that Firepowers numbers are good, but I think more than you count FP would keep heading away from the Giants. The infrastructure around Hochoch simply couldnt handle it.
However, much like the Depression, large moving agricultural societies are more immune to deprivation than are later industrial ones. So, most of the population that you leave in and around Hochoch, i would place in Barony Hethiye, either staking claims to farmland or hunting the Dim and fishing the Rushmoors.
The idea of border fort/towns makes sense, but keep in mind (and you couldn't know this as the laws havent been finished) that the March charters all cities and towns. Without a charter, the Army does not place you on the priority list for defense. And you are limited in the quantity of local militia you can raise.
The Army has jurisdiction over the Roads, and they diligently guard them. They also jealously guard their perogatives on the roads, even from the KoW. They guard this perogative even more that battle, which they understand they share with the KoW.
Every chartered town is provided a road by the Army, and that road is protected by the Army. Unchartered towns have no such luxury. So, refugees, I think, would initially be clustered in the Hethiye Barony, and some would settle. Others would eventually move West and North. The northern areas, particularly along the Dim, are sparsely settled and open pastures. The refugees may well be welcomed there.
But Refugees will almost certainly seek out Chartered Towns, and be located within reasonable sight of most of them. IMO, this quirk of GM law would mean that Refugees would scatter throughout the March seeking the protection of such towns. This would give a more even population distribution and would also cause less stress on the GM infrasturcture. Hookhill, due to its limited water, would be the least able to absorb refugees, and IMO, and as noted earlier, would draw the most affluent. Only in the swamp would simple squatters be able to gain a hold.
Wow, what great input this project is getting from everyone, on all threads.
I will be thinking about you from the Islands. Yabusama, if I see him, I will buy your dad a drink. Till then....
I posted over in the refugee section to futher discuss this as little of what I had to say had to do with mapping. Maybe a burned village or two, but I would guess they would be rebuilt.
Hookhill
Nearly finished, just need to finish the northern and eastern areas outside of the walls. Added a jousting area and two large horse markets to the west of town, and swamp-ville to the south.
Political Map
Moved Hochoch across the Realstream and extended the Hochoch Protectorate to extend further. One thing of mention is that all the admin areas are baronies bar the marches. Any chance of a shire or dukedom to break up the naming convention????
Feedback appreciated or any changes required let me know.
Andy _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
The political map looks great. I am glad to see where all the baronies are now because I was not sure where they were. I want place the houses this makes it easier. One comment I do have which deals again with canon from the Liberation of Geoff. The year of Liberation of Geoff is 591 the same as LGG. If this is own starting date as well then Midwood is under the control of a Fog giant which the towns folk appear to be accepting to the point of protecting the giant. I am not sure that the Watch or Dispatch would want to agree to this so perhaps it is outside of the protectorate.
Hookhill never looked better. I am now trying to restructure my campaign to fit the new city . What is the area is the north east of the city? Horse grounds? Abandon refugee area? Also what is the scale? If you have an idea of where you what to place things let me know, as I need to make those alterations as well. The jousting field is an excellent touch.
Speaking of city what is everyone sense that all Gran March Cities are walled? _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
One thing of mention is that all the admin areas are baronies bar the marches. Any chance of a shire or dukedom to break up the naming convention????
Unfortunately LGG which is the canon we used to break Gran March into the number of Baronies calls them all Baronies and Marches. Keoland has Province so the have different titles
Below is a the general meaning of a Baron and barony. To me this seem to speaks to Keolands continued influence on Gran March, and as much as we may not want it, is not totally free of Keoalnd. Perhaps the term Barony is dropped all together as a symbolic move to show Gran March move to becoming more independent and new title is being discussed by Council. Maybe The Commonwealth of ...
It is not unusual to have the same name ie state of... province of... but in common reference the State of or Province of is dropped.
Quote:
BARON: A vassal who holds directly from the Crown. It is not, of itself, a title, but rather a description of the "Tenants-in-Chief" class of nobility.
Quote:
1. A title or degree of nobility; originally, the possessor of a fief, who had feudal tenants under him; in modern times, in France and Germany, a nobleman next in rank below a count; in England, a nobleman of the lowest grade in the House of Lords, being next below a viscount.
Here is how I began referencing them in my mind as I have been working on the Population figures.
Example 1
Common Title: Shiboleth
Formal Title: Barony of Shiboleth
Capital: Shiboleth
Example 2
Common Title: Glynwych
Formal Title: Glynwych Barony
Capital: Dohn Springs
Example 3
Common Title: The West Shire
Formal Title: Hethiye Barony
Capital: Hethiye Manor (West of Orlane)
The Difference may not be obvious, or even useful, but those Baronies that were created from the lands surrounding a City (Shiboleth) are the lands "of," Shiboleth. The City Predated the Barony.
In the Case of some... Such as the Hethiye, it may have been a part of Gran March long before it became a Barony, and it's name in Common Parlance may well be the older name.
The question will be, what is it labeled on the Map? Should it be:
The Westshire (Barony Hethiye); Barony Hethiye (The West Shire).
I dont know if this helps, but I certainly understand the Monotonous nature of the Naming. BTW, Yabusama, can we change the Red of the Names a little, it is a little Garish on otherwise flawless maps?
Anced
If you email me a list of "new" barony names I will change them, also the red will be toned down.
Ivor
Midwood will be excluded
Update
I have added a parish map (very rough and ready btw) to the site, showing the wards within the city to try and make it a bit clearer what I was thinking as I drew them.
Please note the names are my creation so feel free to change them, anyway here is roughly what I was thinking;
The Citadel: Errr its the Citadel.
The City: Old historic centre of Hookhill, now filled with important nobility and core functions.
BarGate: Major KoW barrack area.
Middle Ward: Majority of civil and educational buildings here, a middle to upper middle level class area. Generally a civilised area of town.
Gods Ward: Major market area, home to the 4 agricultural gods., also many industrial and manufacturing businesses here.
Shield Ward: The area for most military production, lots of smithies and furnaces. Also home to the largest horse fair within the city walls.
Marsh Ward: Where the people who can't afford to live anywhere else live. Crowded, poor sanitation due to proximity to marsh, don't go here after dark. My sort of place!
St. Inessa's Ward. Home to the large temple of Zilchus/Inessa and to the large merchant houses of Hookhill. Also where the "Grand Bazaar" is located. A respected area, good security and prosperous. Best shops in Hookhill are here.
High Ward: A more leafy secluded area, home to the richh and nobility. Very high guard activity plus private security.
Over to you guys... _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Gents a further update. After chatting to Anced he mentioned a desire for province maps, so I have quickly put up a draft of the Barony of MacAoidh (The Garden of the March). It is only a fraction completed but the lower right corner is an idea of what I propose.
Anced is this what you imagined? The key for map is as follows;
Small circles = small villages
Triangles = hamlets
There are 3 types of roads;
1) major military paved road (as shownon the national map)
2) major arterial routes (mixture of metalled surfaces and dirt)
3) provincial roads (dirt surfaces)
Is this the level of detail that you wanted? Or too much, not enuff? _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Hey Yabs, the maps look great. That is exactly the level of detail, but I think you should hold off for just a bit. They look great, and if you had infinite time, we would love to have a similar map of each province. However, since you probably do not, we need to decide which will be most useful to the Gazzateer and to the Story line.
Along this line, I would ask here two questions of the Group.
1. What did you think of the slightly variant naming convention?
2. Which provinces do you think most important to map for the March as a nation of the Flaness and for our story requirements?
Of the Baronies, 4 come to mind, though Ivor is the Story Director: Aoid (Lortenford). Vallon(Hookhill), Shiboleth (Shiboleth), and Hethiye/Hochoch Protectorate togeather.
I agree with Anced choice of Baronies to do and we may want to include Harnachus or as we discussed changing it to Harnachoch. Then we should provide suggest guideline for DMs to fill out the other Baronies. As to naming convention I think dropping the Barony title would be fine rather then Barony of. Only in office terms would the phrase "Barony of" be used. Similar to what we do with states and provinces today. We say Alberta not the province of Alberta. The full term Province of Alberta is only used in official context. This seems to denote the more practical side of the people of Gran March
Just as an FYI
The name of Collinae comes from the French word for hill, colline
Harnachus or Harnachoch comes from the French word for to harness, harnacher
And the Muraille is the French word for wall
And the placement of these Barony names to seem quite apt. Collinae is the hilly part of Gran March. Harnarchoch harnessing the mountains and its resources and the Wall both in term of the fact that it is against the mountains and it is on the border.
And since no - one other than I knew this and I did not place the Barony names this is a very interest coincidence.
Unless you speak French Yabusama? _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I am not sure this is the proper forum, but as AM discussed it here ...
Thanks, AM for the spreadsheet. I like it a lot. As you might know from some of my previous posts, I see just that idea of equivalent populations as the justification for the low human populations, together with heros to keep things in balance.
The one problem I see with this draft is that the evil humanoid population equivalents are over three time that of the good human and demihumans. Actual populations are even scarier.
The dividedness of the humanoids has to be a factor, but I have read that when an adjacent population exceeds twice that of the subject, it tends to dominate it by war or whatever. With these figures, I would think the humanoids would join at least for the spoils to overrun the March and succeed.
Half that would still be an awful lot of humanoid, but be more viable.
Added a population density map to the site. The density shown is based upon Anced's spreadsheet and 'unique' sketch with a bit of free form thinking thrown in.
Enjoy _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
Hey Yabs, the map looks fantastic. I have only one problem and that is the scale. If I do my math correctly this is significantly more population that the March has.
I would suggest the following:
0-5... as you have
6-30
31-50
50-100
100-500
500+
The reason for this is simple... as drawn using area in yellow times the lowest factor (5) there are 175k people... using the median factor (25) there are 877k people and using the largest factor (50) there are 1755k people.
Lets get togeather and work these out so that they match the current population.
Median values, oh how silly of me not to have known that . I will amend the ranges as you wish _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
I know Anced has been interested in a Lortenford map, so ever eager to please I have put one on the web site for comments. I plan to add suburbs along the northern extents to illustrate overflow of population. The town needs a name, as in "Lortenford. Home of the Watch" or something.
err thats it. _________________ The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.
I have been working on climate, agriculture, flora and fauna and this is going to create some changes to the population map. The Southern Areas are significantly more populated, and the northern plains willnot support much in the way of population at all . Hookhill has nearly 40% of the population of Barony Valonn, as the plains are nearly unihabitable due to a lack of water.
Also, Tony Palladini has drawn a map of Hochoch, which can be accessed at http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/ig/hochoch.htm Lets chat about incorporating this, maybe we can get him to send the CC2 file.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
