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    Canonfire :: View topic - Gord the Rogue: Does book order matter?
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    Gord the Rogue: Does book order matter?
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    Novice

    Joined: Mar 13, 2005
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    Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:31 pm  
    Gord the Rogue: Does book order matter?

    I just recently came home from a local used book store after picking up a few greyhawk novels. This is what I bought:
    Circus Of Fear (Endless Quest) by Rose Estes
    The Price of Power by Rose Estes
    The Demon Hand by Rose Estes
    White Plume Mountain by Paul Kidd
    Gord the Rogue: Come Endless Darkness (book 6) by Gary Gygax


    I would really like to read the Gord the Rogue book, but since it is sixth in the series I'm not sure if it would wise if I read them out of order (or is there any order?) Would you suggest I buy and read the rest of the books first?

    Also, if you have read the other books I bought, what did you think of them. I noticed the Circus of Fear is just a kids book after flipping through it, but that doesn't bother me.. I only payed $1.50 for it!
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
    Posts: 404
    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

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    Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:18 pm  
    Good Books

    Hey, Clint.

    Well, I'd toss out (or try to resell) the books my Rose Estes. They are terrible. I did not beleive it when others told me. So, I insisted on reading one - and were they right. I read Master Wolf, and it was bad.

    Read the Paul Kidd book, White Plume Mountain for sure. It's not (dare I say it?) Salvatore or Hickman, but it's good. Second is Descent into the Depths of the Earth. The unoffical trilogy is concluded with Queen of the Demonweb Pits.

    The link below is to a thread where Thanael provides a great answer regarding the Gord series, including a suggested reading order and other links.

    Gord Book Thread

    Enjoy
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    Don (Greyson)
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    Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:20 pm  
    Thanks!

    Hey thanks a bunch Greyson. Sucks to hear that the Rose Estes novels blow, but I didn't pay much for them. I think I'll pick up those Gord the Rogue novels before I read the one I have. Maybe I'll Borrow one from my DM.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:26 am  

    Definately get the other Gord books first. With number 6 you already got the one that`s hardest to get and most expensive. You should be able to get the others on ebay for around or under $ 5 a piece. Or try half.com and amazon. The first two by TSR are often listed with the wrong title: Greyhawk Adventures or something like that. Try searching by author too...
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 19, 2003
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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:47 am  

    Personally I agree about the Estes books - awful. I really don't like any GH fiction that I've read besides the Gord books, and I'm split on those as well.

    The first two (Saga and Artifact) are absolute gems, classics that rank among my alltime favorite reads, and always will. Sea of Death, the sequel to Artifact, is similarly priceless. For me, that's it. I think that City of Hawks is kind of filler, have never read Night Arrant, and didn't enjoy Dance of Demons and Come Endless Darkness much, aside from the assault on the wizard Gravestone's tower (Dance of Demons?) - that was cool.

    Just one man's opinion, and admittedly I'd take any of these books over any other GH fiction I've ever seen - just think there's a drop in quality after Sea of Death. As an aside, a few years ago I read a book (Against the Giants?) based on the old modules that made me want to hurl it was so bad. I haven't been back to GH ficiton yet - fortunately that was around the time I discovered Moorcock and began reading the Conan books, so I was able to keep chewing through good fantasy stuff.

    Anybody got any other recommendations? Please don't say Robert Jordan - yech.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:45 am  

    btgrover wrote:
    Personally I agree about the Estes books - awful. I really don't like any GH fiction that I've read besides the Gord books, and I'm split on those as well.

    The first two (Saga and Artifact) are absolute gems, classics that rank among my alltime favorite reads, and always will. Sea of Death, the sequel to Artifact, is similarly priceless. For me, that's it. I think that City of Hawks is kind of filler, have never read Night Arrant, and didn't enjoy Dance of Demons and Come Endless Darkness much, aside from the assault on the wizard Gravestone's tower (Dance of Demons?) - that was cool.

    Just one man's opinion, and admittedly I'd take any of these books over any other GH fiction I've ever seen - just think there's a drop in quality after Sea of Death. As an aside, a few years ago I read a book (Against the Giants?) based on the old modules that made me want to hurl it was so bad. I haven't been back to GH ficiton yet - fortunately that was around the time I discovered Moorcock and began reading the Conan books, so I was able to keep chewing through good fantasy stuff.

    Anybody got any other recommendations? Please don't say Robert Jordan - yech.


    IMO, Night Arrant is Gygax' best work. City of Hawks ranks second, IMO. The rest of his novels are readable only for their Greyhawk material, IMO.

    To me, Gary has(had) talent as a writer. However, Artifact of Evil and the Saga of Old City read, to me, like first attempts or drafts. The later Gord books (other than Night Arrant and City of Hawks) seemed rushed. Night Arrant, I think, displays Gygax' imagination and ingenuity best; maybe it is the short story format. City of Hawks reworks some material from his earlier works and is better for the rework; if Saga of Old City might be analogized to a first draft, City of Hawks is more of a finished product. Of course, Saga of Old City is telling a tale in a way City of Hawks is not. Herein, lies the crux of the matter, IMO.

    If there is a criticism of Gygax' writing, beyond publishing what should have been drafts or rushing later works, it is what I would call forced storytelling. In Saga of Old City, Artifact of Evil and the later Gord books, Gygax' writing is being driven by the story of Tharizdun. Only in Night Arrant and City of Hawks does Gygax step-away from this strong narrative to any degree. In doing so, IMO, Gary finds his true voice as an author. When Gary lets the story come to him and flow naturally and without precondition, I think he is an effecive and entertaining writer. When the narritive is forced by the needs of the story to move along, I think Gary is less effective as an author.

    Not every writer writes the same types of stories or the same types effectively or in the same manner. I do not think Gygax is a good epic story teller, ala the Artifacts/Tharizdun storyline. I think he is better telling genre tales of and within his setting, much like one of his heroes - Jack Vance and the Dying Earth. This quality, I think, only comes through in Night Arrant and City of Hawks, to a lesser degree.

    IMO
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    GVD
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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:16 am  

    btgrover wrote:
    Anybody got any other recommendations? Please don't say Robert Jordan - yech.


    You might like George Martin, I'd say he's the antithesis of Robert Jordan though many people like both of them. Sometimes there's no accounting for taste Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:35 am  

    "In Saga of Old City, Artifact of Evil and the later Gord books, Gygax' writing is being driven by the story of Tharizdun."

    I think this is true in the later books, and a legit criticism. Also true in City of Hawks, at least to an extent. In the first three books (Saga, Artifact, and Sea), however, we're treated to epic adventures. I don't know that Tharizdun's name is mentioned in any of the three. Book One has almost nothing to do with him, and in the second and third, Gord's hunting pieces of an artifact, not battling Big T. Really good stuff, IMO.
    Novice

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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:45 am  

    Wow thanks for all the information, I guess I'll just buy the rest of the gord the rogue books and read White Plume Mountain for now.

    Thanks again-
    Clint the changeling
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    Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:26 pm  

    *Just one question by walking by*

    Are the Greyhawk novels worth reading or are they worth reading for Greyhawkers. I mean, aprt from my RPG addiction, I use to read quite normal *canon* literature. So, most of all that kind of *gaming novels* don't capture me... (I particularly dislike R. A. Salvatore's books...*The Crystal Shard* managed to shy me away from the FR forever) So, would I like Gord novels?

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    Happy
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    Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:02 am  

    Ivid wrote:
    *Just one question by walking by*

    Are the Greyhawk novels worth reading or are they worth reading for Greyhawkers. I mean, aprt from my RPG addiction, I use to read quite normal *canon* literature. So, most of all that kind of *gaming novels* don't capture me... (I particularly dislike R. A. Salvatore's books...*The Crystal Shard* managed to shy me away from the FR forever) So, would I like Gord novels?

    Question
    Happy


    I do not think so. I think their Greyhawk content and context defines them to such a degree that it also limits their appeal, IMO.

    Despite some strong protestations to the contrary I've seen, IMO, Gord and Chert (the heroes) read like a cut-rate Fafhrd and and the Grey Mouser, with D&D tropes (plus the notably forced Tharizdun plotline) laddled over the top of them.

    The best of the books (Night Arrant and City of Hawks) are enjoyable, IMO, primarily if you know Greyhawk and the game. The worst are only readable for the Greyhawk content, IMO.

    I think Gygax has(had) talent as a novelist/writer but the talent was raw and never got a chance to meaningfully develop.

    IMO
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    GVD
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    Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:23 pm  

    Cool

    You say more or less exactly what I was thinking about these books... While you can make what YOU want out of a sourcebook, I think those old fantasy novels are less a *famous and desired collectionist object* and more *a personal treasure one keeps like his early comic books*.

    Thank you!

    Smile
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
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    Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:32 pm  
    Read Them

    Ivid, I'd suggest reading them (at least one) and form your own opinion. If you can get your hands on one of them, check it out for yourself. You might like them and get one perspective of Greyhawk. At worst, you won't like them. But at least you will have given them a try.

    Enjoy.
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    Don (Greyson)
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    Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:08 am  

    Happy Of course, I'll check for them if I find them. For me, the main problem wasif they were worth SEARCHING for them or if I should just wait until they cross my way... After all, Greyhawk supplements tend to be not very *cheap* when you find them insome stabby corner of a gaming store... So, one has to look for what he spends his money...

    I think, I'll just wait for the books to find me and be happy to get them, then...

    Wink
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