Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Religious Matters

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:28 pm

I think a web link would be fine FirePower.
Deadlines!! we have hard deadlines??!! Shocked

Seriously, we do want to try to finish this in about a year but there is not a hard deadline for anything. I hear people have things called lives. Happy

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"Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.

Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:00 pm

Okay, a web link it is.

Hopefully somebody knows how to set one up, because I haven't a clue. Embarassed

Any help?
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:55 pm

Alrighty FirePower. I have your churches document ready to go for internet viewing. Cool

The file is clean, but I know some people aren't all that excited about downloading and/or opening files from the net so I put your text on a page right here with proper credit and linkage back to your ID here at CF!

http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

Or if you want the doc itself for download I can also put that link up. I hesistated to do it because it did not have any author credits on it. I can put your info on it but I cannot edit a word doc without changing the format to a Microsoft Works Word Processor Document and I wasn't sure if that would be okay or not. Anyhoo, here you go. Happy

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Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:39 pm

Tedra,

Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Happy

Don't sweat author credits and so forth; this is a draft to be ripped apart by everyone. Besides, I really don't care if someone rips me off. The Big Guys did it in '95, no one here can do worse. Smile

So, anyhow. Everyone take a look. I'm working out some NPCs, but otherwise what you see is what I've got.

Tear it up, folks. Smile

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:51 pm

I am looking forward to it. Thanks both of you.

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:51 pm

Okay, here's the link to the .doc if anyone wants to save it

http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc

And you are most welcome FP, lemme know if you want to add anything. Wink

_________________
Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:08 pm

Will do, Tedra.

I'll probably hit you up when I finish the NPCs, but that won't be for a week or so I'd imagine.

Thanks again! Happy

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:28 pm

Thanks Tedra for Helping FirePower. Very Kind of you! Cool

_________________
"Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.

Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:06 pm

IvorMac,

I wanted to bounce the NPC "standards" off of you before I attached them to the Churches. Don't want a 3.5 Cleric/Sorcerer when you're set up for AD&D...

So I'm running through with 3.5 rules and a 28-point buy. I build them up to an appropriate level complete with stats, skills, feats, abilities, and favorite spells (if applicable). From there I'll work up a very detailed profile and physical description.

The Angel Tedra Smile

has offered to help out with illustrating the NPCs, though I think I could hack something reasonable together if she's overloaded.

Anything else you'd like to see in the NPC portion? For example, if you wanted stats for the same NPC for AD&D and 2nd Ed and 3.0 and 3.5, I can swing that, too.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22 am

Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:30 am

The campaign is in 3.5 format. I think that since many people play different versions in CF if you want to provide various editions styles then feel free to do so. The major focus should be 3.5.

If your NPCs are as good as your write up on the Churches then I sure they will be very good. When you say appropriate level what are you levels are you considering?
_________________
"Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:40 am

Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:44 pm

That sounds good I have a done a 3.5 edition spread sheet for NPC level in the cities if oyu want to have a look.
_________________
"Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:32 pm

IvorMac,

I DEFINITELY want to see that sheet!

I worked up something that gives NPC levels off of the Town Demographics tables in the DMG, but I'm just not very happy with it. I'd love to see something better... mine's too clunky.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:36 pm

Hey Everybody!

PLEASE take a look at the file Tedra hosted for me.

I want to know everyone's thought's on what I've got up there. No, I don't want praise; I want criticisms. I want complaints. I want people to point out the glaring errors I've made and wonder aloud at where my head is located.

Okay, maybe not that last part. Smile

But give me some input so I can make this thing better.

Thanks.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:08 pm

It is hard to find much to complain about.

Depending on how the rest of the Gazetteer looks, it may be too long. I generally prefer more information, but if it is much larger than any other section it might need to be cut back. A summary or introduction would be in order.

You might have to wait for AncedMath to make some decisions, but I think the Church of Obad-Hai should say more about how it is dealing with the refugees. You nailed that with Hextor and Cuthbert, but you have the Shalm emphasized in the areas where most might be concentrated.

I have no idea of the canon on this, but assuming it can be changed, I did not like in the Church of Pholtus: “The Cardinal of the Sheldomar Valley … answers directly to Wintershiven, … his superior.” When you couple that with “National, local, and community governments are dominated by followers of Pholtus” you could end up with Gran March being a puppet of the Pale, unless the Cardinal has no control over his Archbishops. I would think there would be something more like Eastern v. Western orthodox. I think distance and the history of the two nations would support that.

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:46 pm

Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:26 pm

Personally I feel you have misunderstood the Pholtian Church in regards towards the Pale, the Pholtus church already has a schism so an east-west one is unnecessary.

The Church of Pholtus mainstream faith is “the blinding light” LG (LN), while the Pale sect “the one true path” (LN) is concentrated within the Theocracy of the Pale.

Think of the Pale as Puritans, they left the former Great Kingdom for the isolated north (their new world), isolating themselves so they could practice their stricter, purer pholtian worship without being corrupted by the “compromised” mainstream church found within Aerdy.

The “blinding light” mainsteam pholtian church views the Pale’s zealots “one true path” doctrine as misguided and intolerant (which is saying something because the mainstream faith adherents are themselves hardly open minded), while the Pale church views the “blinding light” doctrine as morally weak and corrupt.

The schism is very real, with little or no communication between the two churches but has not reached open violence because both sides are confident of victory and reconciliation, once the pale zealots see the light and soften their views or the blinding light follows the shining example taking place within the pale.

The “one true path” sect is primarily confined to the theocracy of the pale but since the wars, has taken a very agressive stance towards its immediate neighbours (Tehna and northern Nyrond), obviously the Pholtian faith of Gran March should be the mainstream “blinding light” faith.

IMO there is no pan national Pholtian church or arguably any other (possible exception druids) since the successions from the GK, most faiths became national, simply put the churches of the same faiths may have friendly relations with fellow believers and even seek too quietly support mutual cooperation but if war is declared between their nations both churches would support their troops and war effort.

So even if the GM church of Pholtus is of the “One true faith” can’t see how given the distance from the pale, The Cardinal of the Sheldomar wouldn’t answer directly to Wintershiven in any case, at most he would consult and work too bring closer relations between GM and the Pale.

Just a thought, sorry too be so critical.

Do I need a blindfold?

Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:11 am

You certainly don't need a blindfold, Crag. No executions here. Sad

Wait.

Ugh... hold it. Smile

There we go.

I think that you and Wolfsire are basically saying the same thing: the Pholtian church in Pale and the Pholtian church in GM shouldn't be connected. You've got more detail, and expounded on the logic, but the message is the same.

I'd have to say I agree. My corundrum is deciding how the church interacts with the "other" Pholtian sects. Is it shattered like Earth's christianity or muslim religions? Is it a trans-national or regional or national or local entity? Is there a central focal point for the religion akin to the Vatican or Mecca?

That's the 800-pound gorilla I'm wrestling with. TSR had an aversion to making any religious comparisons in the 80's (for some reason), so background material is kind of sparse. There may have been an article in Dragon #2 that you remember reading that dealt with this very subject. So the insights are always welcome. Cool

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:57 pm

Given the aversion of mixing church and state in the history of Keoland, but the redirection of that in the March that is developing for the Gazetteer, I think it would be appropriate to have a Church of Pholtus for the whole Sheldomar that is loosely organized around the Church in the March. As Craig points, that need not be, and perhaps should not be about belief, but rather about structure in response to the environment.

For the Sheldomar, I could see a College of Cardinals without a Pope, but with the Archbishop of the March being the first among equals. Perhaps he could be called the Cardinal Primus, but cannot give orders outside of the March or the College, although any request would be likely honored. The College itself would only have such authority as its members agreed, so kicking out a member would not, by any church law, remove a bishop from office, but might result in that as a practical matter.

Although they would be of lesser distinction in such an organization, the other bishops would welcome participation as a Cardinal because it would add to their limited authority in Keoland. This lack of authority would be particularly accented, more so than for any other church, given the power structure in the Pale, even thought that is considered an aberration. Keoland is an aberration, and by contrast the March, and the clergy would want to organize around a strong point. I cannot speak with any authority for the other Sheldomar states, but I would suspect they still have separation issues and you are not going to find anything like the power of the Church of Pholtus in the March.

A bonus side of the loosely organized concept is that it can be ignored outside the March as the winds blow, whether you are taking about how a DM who wants to manage the other states without reference to this Gazetteer, or for one that uses this Gazetteer, and you are talking about changing political winds in the other states.

As for anything outside the Sheldomar, only “friendly relations” sounds right to me.

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:35 am Executions

Actually I think we need a few executions. Lets start with the guy who requires a person to return from Vacation. Yall tie him up, I want to do the shooting.

Now that I am back, though, I really like what has been done here. I think that the Church of Pholtus should be independant, at least from the Church in hte East, in the Pale and the Great Kingdom.

In general, the people of the Sheldomar are much more secular than in some other places (Veluna comes to mind, as does the Pale). I think that their churches would reflect this. I do like the idea though, of the March being a religious center (particularly for Pholtus) as it is the Most religious of these lands. I kind of see it as the difference between the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Churches.

I am about to open a thread on the Laws of the Land, hopefully today. You will see, though, that my thoughts on the Law does not include the Participation developed by your work Firepower, and we will need to reconcile the two.

Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:29 am

Oh crap! He's back from vacation! Quick! Everyone back to work!

Laughing

WB, recently-lounging-in-the-islands one. Smile

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Mon May 02, 2005 6:25 pm Hey There

Hey there Firepower! Hope you are well. I wanted to follow up on the religions and how it was coming togeather. Have you had any time to add some structure to some of the Churches. I found the discussion in this thread of various church structures fascinating, and wondered where you were going to take it.

Talk with you soon.

Mon May 02, 2005 10:31 pm

Hey all,

I hope to have something up next week. This week is out as I am still away from home (and my books, my notes, my PC, my...)

So look for more on the churches next week. Hopefully I can sweet talk the angel of assistance (that's Tedra Smile

) into helping out with the posting-of-the-file-thingy.

But for now, duty calls. Confused

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Tue May 03, 2005 12:25 pm

Thu May 19, 2005 10:44 am

Okay, I'm back.

Military duty was a little more involved than I originally thought. Confused

I should have church stuff up by Monday night.

With Tedra's help, of course... Wink

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Thu May 19, 2005 3:39 pm

Just send me an email FP and I'll upload it and post a link for the update. Cool

_________________
Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Mon May 23, 2005 9:18 pm

Monday night, and Tedra has the updated file in her hot little hands. Smile

I hope to have the Church NPCs finished by tomorrow night.

And now it's back to work for me!

Your task, dear reader, is to look at the file with a critical eye and post your comments here.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Tue May 24, 2005 8:11 am

Just one thought. Since we have used LGG as a guideline should we not also write up the other two major influential gods in Gran March, Fharlanghn and Phyton?
_________________
"Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.

Tue May 24, 2005 3:49 pm

What the!?!?

(flip, flip, flip)

GAAAAHH!!!!

Okay, I can do this. I only missed Fharlanghn and Phyton.

Guess I should look at the book, rather than my notes, once in a while. Embarassed

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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Tue May 24, 2005 3:54 pm

Okay, just got in from work and I think I've done it right. I simply rewrote the page at http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

So stop over and check it out. The file can be downloaded here:

http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc

Enjoy! Cool

_________________
Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Tue May 24, 2005 6:56 pm

Okay, let's try this again... Embarassed

The new, improved, economy-sized Churches of Gran March has been delivered (sorry Tedra). Now with more Fharlanghn! Made with the space-age ingredient Phyton! Don't miss this opportunity! Laughing

As always, I'm open to suggestions, comments, criticisms, and out-and-out objections. Smile

BTW, good catch on that IvorMac. Displaying the benefits of teamwork and all that.

Now I'm back to work on the NPCs. They'll probably be up by tomorrow night.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Wed May 25, 2005 3:27 pm

Not a problem FP. Now updated with Fharlanghn and Phyton. Happy

http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/firepower.html

New file:
http://myweb.cableone.net/tedra/postchurchesworking.doc
_________________
Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Fri May 27, 2005 7:30 pm

Tedra,

I should have the NPCs done tonight, but they'll probably go on Yabasuma's new site.

But I was wondering if you'd like to collaborate on some NPC art? I've got 13 NPCs, and I think that between you and I we can come up with some pretty kick-arse sketches.

Whaddya think?
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri May 27, 2005 8:14 pm

I'd love to, FP. Just let me know! Cool

_________________
Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.

Mon May 30, 2005 8:54 pm

Hey all,

The Churches are done*

Yabs and Tedra should have the file in their collective hot little hands now.

Look it over and punch holes in it. Smile

But remember that the NPCs were written for the lowest common denominator; 3.5 PHB and DMG and LGG were the only tools I used on the NPCs. I wasn't looking for optimization, but showing a ready-to-use example for the end-user.

*actual doneness of document may vary based on comments, criticisms, complaints, typographical errors, spell-checking, continuity errors, bone-headedness, planetary alignment, and day of the week. Dealer sets actual retail price.
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Mon May 30, 2005 10:43 pm

mmm small print Laughing

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The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:13 pm

No comments?
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:56 pm Firepower

Hey Firepower,

I dont know about everyone else, but I have been diligently trying to finish something, any thing that I have assigned myself in this little adventure. I will read the churches this weeked, and get you some comments.

Sorry about the delay, I have been lax at finishing anything.

Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:50 pm

Hey all,

Just wanted to give you a heads-up. Military duty calls yet again, so response times will be exceptionally spotty for the next two-to-three weeks. Things should stabilize a little at the end of the month, but hope to have some free time to work on some projects between now and then.

Maybe even get a few NPC sketches to Tedra. Cool

Your Advisor on Spiritual Matters (LOVE that title! Happy

),
FirePower
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There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.

Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:20 pm GM Holidays

I am not sure that this post strictly belongs here, but for Postfest II, GVD made made some specific Holidays for GM, or specifically referenced GM in holidays under these headings:

The Caltaran Horse Fair
The Gran National
The Lost in the Dark Bells
The Night of Fear
Riding the Marches

There are also some that he designed for all of GH, or were otherwise relevant under these headings:

Courts Leet and Baron
Crabapple Fairs
Feast of All Souls
Feast of the Gods
The Royal Hunt
The Royal Progress
Rushbearing & Haystrewing
Sorcerers Night
Summer Carnival

Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:08 am

Now we just need to include these with his permission of course... Cool

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The only Good hobbit is a well-done hobbit.