I have a cleric in the party who worships Pelor. Unfortunately, he has committed several transgressions and is more concerned with magic items than spreading the faith I was hoping to have him switch to Kord or a dark deity, because he basis his character's value off of the magic items he carries. For example, he always comments that he doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does, or that if he had the right magic items, he could do x,y,z, he's not strong enough, etc. His time is monopolized with how to get the best results from his magic items. He will reconsider helping a fellow PC if his own character may provoke an AoO from an npc
In short, he's one of those guys who tries to find the holes in the rules, basis his characters importance by the magic items he carries and damage he can do and his perfectly happy with everyone losing their stuff, as long as he doesn't lose his.
So my question to YOU is, how do you handle changing deities? Now that I understand his motivations and desires, it will be easier to run a game with his character. Thanks for your help!
.. my question to YOU is, how do you handle changing deities?..
From the sounds of it he should be an ex-cleric by now if he has greiviously violated his tenents of faith to his deity and ethos, but if he sincerely wishes a change I would consider a loss of spells, domain and class features by Pelor until he either atones or offers sincere devotion to a new deity like Kord.
Deities, IMC tend to veiw such 'trendy' followers dubiously and may make the new converted cleric prove themselves somehow before granting them acess to domains and spells. In any case making the PC roleplay his character will add depth to the event rather than simply erasing a deities name off his character sheet.
Just my thoughts. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
It's not so much that he has made critical errors, but his transgressions are getting worse and worse. In the latest session, he willingly entertained with slavers, allowed one of the party members to be tied up, disarmed and armor removed, enjoyed himself and forgot about the bound pc and when another pc got into a fight and was seriously wounded, he was too concerned about provoking an AoO if he were to have run to the wounded bard (-8 hp and dropping). I feel that it would be more appropriate for him to find a more fitting deity.
If a cleric’s behavior is not appropriate for her deity, she loses the ability to cast spells, she can no longer gain levels as a cleric until the situation is rectified. She may continue to use her cleric abilities while working to rectify the situation. If she does not try to fix the situation when the opportunity provides itself (judge’s discretion), she has then abandoned the tenets of her deity and loses her clerical abilities until the situation is rectified. This happens when her faith is restored, behavior changes, and she receives an atonement spell from a high level cleric of her faith who usually assigns a quest to be completed first for the faith in payment for atonement.
A cleric can abandon his faith and take up the faith of another god. In doing so, the cleric follows the Ex-Clerics rule losing their levels, all class features and spells of the abandoned god.
To progress as a cleric of another faith, the character must go on a quest for his new church then receive an atonement spell from a cleric of his new faith. Once these two conditions are met, the character becomes a cleric of the new god (level 1).
Ofcourse this is dire, some people don't know how to behave, so to keep PC priests in character perhaps a series of warnings that increase...
1) RP a visit to the local church or priest...
Hearing disturbing tales, allow me to provide some guidence
2) Loss of spells for a day / week / month...
Deities pleasure ie: you, should clue in the most stubborn player something isn't right
3) Loss of priestly abilities...
Deities pleasure ie: you, for the truly dense
4) No more experience advancement until it changes...
PC howl blue murder and usually demand to know what is wrong, now you have too decide, do you want this player being a priest in your game at all, obviously he has very little interest in actually playing a priest, your call
5) Stripping him of the faith...
No longer a priest, quest and serious acts of contrition (humiliation) until he convinces the church and you, too forgive him.
If the player simply doesn't want to have their character follow the tenets of Pelor, then strip them of their abilities. ALL of their abilities. If the cleric wasn't in any danger of being killed when the bard was at -8, then that would be a partial transgression right there (particularly of the Strength and Healing aspects of Pelor). This might be worthy of taking away all of the cleric’s abilities, but I’d certainly inform the player that their character is having a twinge from their conscience regarding the incident. Perhaps you need to make the cleric wear a bracelet that has little cubes on it with the letters W.W.P.D. (What Would Pelor Do?) ;)
Anyways, if the player is just a cheesy little punk then it is up to you how that should be dealt with. XP penalties work fine. I award bonuses and penalties for particularly good and bad play. Consequently there is not much bad play in my campaign. Being a cheese ball rules monger is a sure way to tip the scales against you. Playing your character “out of character” is another.
It sounds like this player and their character are a detriment to the other pc’s.
If you really want the player to change religions, then here is what I suggest:
The character will have to make the choice to do so first of all. Ask the player if this is what they rally want to do. The character may need to be forced to a decision through their own abuses by having the character’s spells and abilities revoked utterly. The deity has abandoned the unrepentant heretic.
If the player does want to change religions after all of this, then allow them to do so. The new faith will require a service of the character as a demonstration of their good intentions towards adopting the new faith. A simple quest or mission or rendering of services will suffice. The higher the level of the aspirant, the more challenging the task should be, though it should be something the character can accomplish on their own.
Upon completion of the task, the character becomes a 1st level cleric. This level is not added to any previous levels. The character must relearn what they have already learned in their previous life as a cleric. In effect, a 5th level cleric who has changed faiths will now have all of their previous abilities, but will cast spells and turn undead as a 1st level cleric of the new faith. Their hit points, attack bonus, and any feats and skills they had will remain the same. Any further experience points gained are applied as if the character was only 1st level, so on higher level adventures, the cleric will advance fairly rapidly and eventually regain their current real level as a cleric of the new deity. These experience points only count towards determining the characters relative powers as a cleric. No hit points, feats, or skill points are gained when a new level is reached. The character is too busy learning about their new faith and praying to devote time to learning or acquiring these things anyways. When cleric’s xp finally totals enough to make the cleric in this example equal to 5th level(i.e., the level they previously held as a cleric of their former deity), then they begin to earn XP as normal, now being able to advance beyond the 5th level to 6th, and so on.
This method allows the cleric to eventually redeem themselves within their new faith and become something other than a high level character with low level access to clerical ability. It is much better to have to regain all of your original XP than to start over again as an Ex-Cleric 5/ Cleric 1. This method penalizes the character without ultimately removing their effectiveness in higher level game play such that they forever remain a handy-cap to the rest of the adventuring party.
I hope that all made sense. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I agree with a lot of this. The cleric is overpowered aswritten, but that is because most of that power is at the whim of the god DM. You know, the short balding guy in red
Anyway, in terms of mechanics, I would not impose any limitations on a 3E cleric once he found a cleric of the new deity willing to cast an atonement. This would require a choice of a deity more in line with the clerics new morality, perhaps of exactly the same alignment rather than within one step. Once the atonement is cast, I would allow full clerical abilities. Note that this can seriously mess with the cleric's domains if the deity of the new alignment does not share these with the old. And the DM still has full control over which deity will accept the fallen.
If the character is an AD&D char, I would require the atonement spell as normal, but I would also require the character to advance as a cleric of the new deity in accordance with the dual-classing rules. The character loses all benefits of the previous cleric class and must start over. IAW the dual-classing rules, only the character's hit points stay the same. Everything else, saves, THAC0, etc. are as a new character. Oh, everything except the divinely grranted abilities are still there at the character's fingertips, but using any of them results in the forfeiture of the next xp award. (insert evil grin) Noter that this also means that only humans may change deities in this way. Only humans may make use of the dual classing rules. Demi-humans and humanoids must continue to advance with a near useless class, gaining access to only the clerics THAC0, hit points and saves.
Well, the cleric just received magic armor +1 and a heavy mace +1, so lets' see if that satisfies him (it's actually according to my plot, how ironic). Well, let's see if he plays hero or if he cowers and looks for more goodies
Remember, treasure, magic items and XP's. The great player pacifiers.
And if that doesnt work a hand shaking contest with a wraith seems to get the point across. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
I would strip him off all Cleric abilities- Let him keep leveling - basically as a crappy fighter, and let the player come to you about switching faith. From what you posted (and I could be missing something) Sounds like his Aligment might also be off to be a cleric of Pelor, or he might just be a rules lawer, twink. Either way that's how I would handle it. I mean the game should be fun for everyone (including the DM), if he's causing big problems you might want to talk to him point blank out of game. Flat out asking him what he wants out of the game.
I like to deal w/ the greedy PC by making sure any magic items doled out in subsequent adventures are ones usable only by the other characters in the party. In fact, I'll tailor the treasure found to reward PCs who roleplay well, as nothing is more important.
This particular guy sounds so annoying, however, that I think I'd either pull him aside and explain his mistakes (if he's a rookie who just doesn't get it) - or else there'd be a series of orc arrows with his name on 'em.
As much as I appreciate your frustrations with this guy (and he is a BIG rules lawyer), I can't justify stripping him of powers...yet It looks like he might be shaping up for the short time with his goodies, but he may pull the "Well, if I'm to go smite greater evil, I need greater weapons" arguement. Anyway, I truly appreciate everyone's assistance in this matter. It really is quite comforting to know that there is such a broad base of wisdom and experinece I can rely on for help! Once again, thank you.
This character is NOT acting like a cleric of Pelor - he is failing his vows and mis-using the powers that Pelor has invested in him.
Some sort of reprimand is in order. Depending on the kind of campaign you run, this can be immeadiate (spells not granted, hit points and saves drop), medium term (XP penalty) or long-term RP (his superior refuses to train him and instead suggests a pennence).
What happens next depends on how the player wants to go. If he decides to play repentant, then everything is eventually restored. If he really is not sorry, and intends to play the PC as a egomaniac, then he should be defrocked and stripped of Pelor powers.
What happens then is up to you and the player. He can be run as a "former cleric" with no special abilities (a crappy fighter, as suggested above), or he can find a new church, more suited to his personality, and begin again. Most of the posters above have suggested that he start over at level 1. If his new faith is N or G I would agree. But if his new faith is Evil, I think he should be allowed to keep some or even all of his levels.
One kind of evil is the kind that corruupts - that seeks out powerful agents of good and works for their "fall from grace". These fallen heroes are the most powerful anti-heroes, and shouldn't have to start over. They have made faustian pacts with the Dark Powers in exchange for keeping their power and position. Such a cleric as this PC might even be sought out by evil powers, making offers for his alliegence. Such a selfish, vain player might be interested in dealing.
Now, if you are at all interested in having him stay with the party, obviously he will not convert to some crusading evil faith like Hextor (and he lacks the courage anyway) or some obvious one like Nerull. But there are many dark faiths that thrive on deception. In the case of this PC, I would suggest either Abbathor (evil god of greed) or Syrul (evil goddess of lies and deception). After Pelor gives him a dressing-down and strips him of his powers, let the player stew for a bit. Then have a representative of Syrul or Abbathor make an appearance, offer to restore ALL his powers, and promise more in the future for faithful service. And faithful service includes acting like he HAS been acting, so it's not a stretch.
If he accepts, he continues PRETENDING to be a cleric of Pelor, but is secretly in the service of one of the evil powers. This allows him to stay with the party and even continue acting pretty much as he has been. At some point of your choosing, someone else in the party, or the church of Pelor, becomes aware of this. This sets up the unmasking and final climatic confrontation, in which he is either destroyed or forced to flee, becoming a nemesis NPC that will hound the party far into the future. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Why Kord? What is there in Kord's spheres of influence that makes him best-suited for magic item-loving clerics? Wouldn't Boccob be best, since the PC doesn't seem to care for anything but his magic? And even if you're focusing on the player's fixation with doing damage like a fighter, I would still pick Hextor over Kord -- unless your campaign is on the Lendor Isles.
Talk with your player before punishing his character. If he is interested in changing deities, then perhaps some timetable of gradual transition can be arranged. If the PC is high enough in level, perhaps Kord and Boccob would be willing to make an even exchange for him without punishing him at all. However, if he simply is acting up and refuses to consider his PC's Alignment and religion, by all means come down hard.
The player in question isn't so concerned with slaughtering foes, being mailicous or actually interested in magic items per se. He is interested in dealing out damage and approaching evil from a position of strength. I figure Kord would be good b/c the player character wants strength, but he also wants that fall back, video game healing spells package that come along with being a cleric. He always measures himself up to to fighter in the group every time he levels, "Wow, I'm at 5th level too, and I can ALOMOST do half as many hit points in damage as you can" or "Wow, I just levelled and I'm finally at 3/4 the hit points total your fighter has at this level." He simply judges his worrh based off the magic or punishment he can deal out as opposed to what his character can do based off of his own attributes and personality. I'd certainly slow level progression down by a couple 1000 xp's or slow spells down to get the message across before I made him start at 1st level.
Everyone comes around from roll playing to roll playing at a different pace, and often it only comes with age and/or experience. (Vorpal sword, done that). Roll playing can be fun, while role playing can be too difficult to be much fun. As long as everyone can have fun, I think the best thing to do is gently move them in the right direction. Can you tolerate a roll player, or will spoil the suspension of disbelief. Taking away his levels may end a friendship. You may not be able to cure him of the roll playing but if he is a reasonable person, with such a move as changing dieties, you should be able to find a character that everyone is comfortable with. It might violate the rules to make it seemless, but that is not all that important. If he is not a reasonable person, get him out the game asap or you will probably lose all the other players in the long run.
Not sure how 'by the book' rules friendly it is, but IMO, if a cleric of one god decides to start worshipping another god, he just multiclassed, effectively into a Cleric/Cleric. So if a 5th level cleric of Pelor switches to Kord, he'd be Cleric (Pelor) 5/Cleric (Kord) 1.
Awkward perhaps, but switching faiths shouldn't be common, easy or encouraged. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
Not sure how 'by the book' rules friendly it is, but IMO, if a cleric of one god decides to start worshipping another god, he just multiclassed, effectively into a Cleric/Cleric. So if a 5th level cleric of Pelor switches to Kord, he'd be Cleric (Pelor) 5/Cleric (Kord) 1.
Awkward perhaps, but switching faiths shouldn't be common, easy or encouraged.
Except this violates rules in both AD&D and D&D3E. The option
i suggested for AD&D might not be legal since you can't dual-class into another sub-class. But the rules are vague about taking a third class between them. And D&D3E specifically states that as soon as a cleric of the new deity accepts you into the faith by casting atonement, you are now a cleric of the new deity with all your levels in cleric.
But, it is the DM's call how easy it is to find that 9th level cleric willing to cast the spell.
Except this violates rules in both AD&D and D&D3E. The option
i suggested for AD&D might not be legal since you can't dual-class into another sub-class. But the rules are vague about taking a third class between them. And D&D3E specifically states that as soon as a cleric of the new deity accepts you into the faith by casting atonement, you are now a cleric of the new deity with all your levels in cleric.
However, "Rule 0" specifically overrides any other rules _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
I don't see how a greedy, magic weapon hungry jerk is prone to worshipping Kord/
Heya Chatdemon,
I was leaning towards Kord on the grounds that the character is still a "good" guy; he truly has a dim view of the darker powers. He wants to go out into the wider world and do great deeds, help the poor, defend the weak, etc. But because he basis the value of his character on almost purely strength related issues (be it physical, amount of damage or magical), I thought the God of Strength and athletics may be a good one. The good thing is, the PC is starting to realize that Pelor is displeased and may jump on board the Pelor wagon
I have a cleric in the party who worships Pelor. Unfortunately, he has committed several transgressions and is more concerned with magic items than spreading the faith I was hoping to have him switch to Kord or a dark deity, because he basis his character's value off of the magic items he carries. For example, he always comments that he doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does, or that if he had the right magic items, he could do x,y,z, he's not strong enough, etc. His time is monopolized with how to get the best results from his magic items. He will reconsider helping a fellow PC if his own character may provoke an AoO from an npc
In short, he's one of those guys who tries to find the holes in the rules, basis his characters importance by the magic items he carries and damage he can do and his perfectly happy with everyone losing their stuff, as long as he doesn't lose his.
So my question to YOU is, how do you handle changing deities? Now that I understand his motivations and desires, it will be easier to run a game with his character. Thanks for your help!
Ah, a subject near and dear to my heart! I sympathize with your character and with you as GM.
First of all, I would sit down with your player and try to find out exactly what he wants from this character. Point out that the character is not behaving properly as a priest of Pelor--and that's OK if that's how the player wants to portray him, but that consequences may come of it. The analogy I'm reaching for is this character might well be the Guy Gardner of your Greyhawk Universe--and that's OK. The player may realize on his own that he picked the wrong God, and want to convert to another. If so, he should pick someone consistent with his culture--if he's Oeridian, Kord doesn't make much sense, but Heironious or Hextor might (he could have an alignment change that goes only as far as Lawful Neutral, though that would be hard to sustain). If he's Suel, then Kord would be perfect. Of course, Pelor does have a militant aspect, and your character could play up on that--but restrict the number of healing spells that Pelor grants him per day and emphasize battle spells. Whichever way it goes, roleplay it out. If he does decide a god that does not meet his cultural background is the way to go, he can still convert, but you'll need to design an appropriate adventure to explain his conversion--say he's an Oeridian who gets captured by the Ice Barbarians, and offers to meet "Kord's Challenge" to save his comrades--if he succeeds in saving the day, he meets a woman who is one of Kord's daughters and falls in love with her, and she converts him to the "true faith" and so on.
However you go with this, the player must understand that his character has to meet the needs of his God first--and that may not include his selfish desires for treasure. The player also needs to understand clerics are rarely as powerful as fighters in hand to hand combat--if that's what he wants, he should renounce the clergy and become a fighter (ie cleric fighter, but don't allow him to gain any more levels as a cleric until his reverence returns and is roleplayed appropriately).
A clear understanding between player and GM is essential here! The player must know what he really wants and clearly communicate it to GM. I, unfortunately, made the mistake of not communicating clearly to my GM what I wanted from my paladin character, and the experience was a disaster: because the problems he threw my way became focused on one issue that he thought was important--and he thought it was what I wanted. So your player needs to figure out what he wants to accomplish, and make sure you understand so you can run adventures that appeal to his tastes.
Find out if the player picked a cleric just so the party would have a "medic." If so, he may not have wanted to play a cleric in the first place. Let him out of it gracefully if so. It will encourage the other players to be a little more careful about risk taking if they know they are less likely to be healed, which is a good thing IMHO anyway.
As for the "finding holes in the rules" . . . if we were playing Champions we would call this guy a Game Mechanic. A Game Mechanic is someone who is only interested in mini-maxing the rules to his own benefit, regardless of the fun of others (similar to a Rules Lawyer, but worse because Game Mechanics don't care if they break a game as long as their own selfish needs are met. A Rules Lawyer points out rules for the benefit or detriment of everyone equally). You have to put a stop to that, and it can be very difficult. Here's where it is helpful to have established, written down House Rules. Don't be afraid to put on the brakes if the player is getting out of hand, or to create a new House Rule on the spot if the player is going overboard--just remember it has to apply equally to everyone. Usually if you remind a player that "OK, but if you can do it, the villains can do it to--and they will", the player will back down. If he doesn't believe you, prove it to him. Players often think that the villains are faceless, two dimensional thugs with no real importance, and they are the center of the universe. Of course the players are important to the story--that's why they're the heroes--but give them a reality check. Frodo didn't go banging on Sauron's door saying, "you can't really hurt me, I'm the hero here pal!" Remind the players of this--good storytelling requires vulnerabilities and weaknesses to create tension and excitement. Your game will be better for it.
I believe a talking to is in order. The party met saturday and entered a would be abandoned fort. Inside was an Owlbear that was chained to the wall. The party went in as far as the chamber opening, but let the fighter go in by himself to "make friends" with the beast They thought it was just a bear as its back was to them and 30' away. The fighter walks up, I gave him hints something wasn't right, but he continued. The Owlbear attacked him, raked him with one claw, crushed his collarbone with his giant beak and tossed him (all 300 lbs of hulking, armored fighter) against the wall. I explained that the fighter took 21 hitpoints of damage.
The Owlbear raised on it's legs, let out a defeaning roar of thunderous and insane rage and started to charge the rest of the party. At this point, I asked, "Okay, who is next in chamber opening?" The PC who plays the Cleric suddenly looked around, leaned away from the table and pointed to the 2nd level monk, "Uh, I think it was the monk." The player with the monk just looked shocked at the cleric, but didn't deny anything. The monk took (luckily) only 8 hitpoints of damage. My concern now is that after a direct warning from Pelor, he still shirked from battle. Granted, the moment he witnessed the fighter taking 21 hitpoints of damage, he mentally gave up, but a cleric of Pelor of 4th level with magic halfplate +1, a heavy mace +1, a heavy shield +1 and spells and 38 hitpoints should be more of a match than a 2nd level unarmored monk. So much for having a backbone of steel. Oh, and I realized why the player in question took Pelor as his deity of choice, the last line on the description of Pelor in the 3.5v basically says that all clerics of Pelor are always welcomed wherever they go. I suspect he was trying to do that whole "no matter where I go, people will like me and I will have no trouble finding room, board, food, a horse, armor, etc." thing.
Well, once he tries to cast spells again, he will be unable to until he atones for his sins of cowardice, not defending the weaker and selfishness.
Well, once he tries to cast spells again, he will be unable to until he atones for his sins of cowardice, not defending the weaker and selfishness.
Dwarf from Nyrond
Given your story, your player is NOT playing in character. But you need the make the point with more than just "your spells don't work." The player will certainly be upset, but simply let him know he has fallen from grace. Throw the ball in the players court as far as atonement: send dark dreams his way perhaps as Pelor's means of communicating his displeasure, and offering his servant a chance to atone. The atonement itself could become a quest for the character and a motivation to go on adventures. Of course, the Church will be involved and will know that this priest has fallen from grace--he will be disciplined by his superiors in the Church, perhaps not allowed to wear priestly raiments (thus not "welcomed whereever he goes") until he atones.
Give him a real chance to fix it, and be prepared for him to backslide. The up and down story of sinner and saint within one living vessel can be an interesting story of the conflict of ones own humanity if played right, and could make a great story--if you can get your player on board to look behond the "kill the monster, get the treasure," mindset.
Once again, thanks for your encouraging words and letting me talk your ear off I tried the dreams, but they only went so far. The PC actually met a severly old,burned and diseased npc that gave our wayward cleric the magical armor and heavy mace. I put it to the cleric this way, "The mans body suddenly stands up as though his backbone were made of steel. His head snaps back and his body levitates four feet off the ground, his arms flung wide. Celestial flames wreath the mans head and his scared face is cleansed into a complextion of fine porcelain. His eyes glow with yellowish fire and he points a finger directly at you. His voice is the sound of thousand sunrises, "I have watched you from birth! I have watched in the Caves! I watched you as others led the charge against the minions of Orcus! I watched your journey to the Hold of the Sea Princes! I watch you now! The strength of the faithful of Pelor comes from their actions. The true followers of Pelor are a guiding light! The faithful do not cower or know fear! No man who has died in the service of Pelor has ever died! Eternal as the sun are my children! Go forth and smite evil!" And after all that, he still cowered Time for a fall from Grace, but I'll give him one more clue before the dime drops.
That Player is not just obtuse, he is also in willful denial. Not coming around after a "hint" like should tell you he is not going to change.
My first thought was maybe he should be a thief, but then it came to me that he would probably try to pilfer from the other PCs, looking for an advantage and being blind to the consequences. Perhaps a magic user would be more to his liking. He would probably gripe about the lack of HP, but he would have a valid excuse for cowering and some real power on the way. It might be worth it to have his cleric killed with an NPC in the wings for him to take over.
I love reading about your campaign.
Can you give a little more of an update either here or over in The Hold of the Sea Princes forum? How did your characters manage not to drown on the way up the Hool River? Have you seen Cwslyclgh's Hurricane Bow of the Sea Princes?
Thank you for your input (I've had the same suspicions that you voiced). I think you are right, the player would complain about not having any hit points. I will say this in the guys defense, he lacks life experiences on a grand scale! He is extremely overweight, has asthma and is allergic to everything under, above, around or behind the sun...possibly the sun too So his social skills are a little less refined than the average Joe.
I read about the Hurricane Bow and actually sent a PM expressing how nicely designed it was. Okay, I told the kindly fellow I was going to outright steal that sucker and put it in my campaign As to the upadates for my campaign, I would be more than happy to list them, but I didn't want to get a thread locked for being off topic, eating bandwidth, etc.
The adventurers made good swim checks even though most of them can't swim. They all got the hint that being in heavy armor is a bad thing when you can't swim (out popped the rulebook from the cleric about this time arguing about what the almighty, infallable rulebook says). Anyway, they were fairly close to shore when their boat became giant crab food and they lost some money, armor and minor gear. I felt it was a fair deal, even if it was bad luck. Just send me a PM and I'll give you the whole sordid story so far if you want it.
Once again, thanks for your encouraging words and letting me talk your ear off I tried the dreams, but they only went so far. The PC actually met a severly old,burned and diseased npc that gave our wayward cleric the magical armor and heavy mace. I put it to the cleric this way, "The mans body suddenly stands up as though his backbone were made of steel. His head snaps back and his body levitates four feet off the ground, his arms flung wide. Celestial flames wreath the mans head and his scared face is cleansed into a complextion of fine porcelain. His eyes glow with yellowish fire and he points a finger directly at you. His voice is the sound of thousand sunrises, "I have watched you from birth! I have watched in the Caves! I watched you as others led the charge against the minions of Orcus! I watched your journey to the Hold of the Sea Princes! I watch you now! The strength of the faithful of Pelor comes from their actions. The true followers of Pelor are a guiding light! The faithful do not cower or know fear! No man who has died in the service of Pelor has ever died! Eternal as the sun are my children! Go forth and smite evil!" And after all that, he still cowered Time for a fall from Grace, but I'll give him one more clue before the dime drops.
Dwarf from Nyrond
OK, so if he doesn't come around that this, then he probably should lose his ability to cast spells--but he still fights like a cleric. After all, he isn't trained the way a warrior would be, so he shouldn't get the advantages. I'm beginning to believe your player is a Power Gamer.
However, cowering before one's God is OK--one should cower before god--it's a sign of humility. If he'd stood up and defied his god, that's when the lightning bolts should start to fly. What matters is whether he takes his gods warning to heart and acts on it.
I have to ask: is this guy a "long time player", or is he a "new guy from another game"? If it is the later, that may be the problem. Maybe he is used to a game where AC 27, and +12 to hit with +17 damage was 'average' for a 5th level cleric. Or maybe he had a bad, 'killer' DM that would say things like "the monster does 7 points of damage and misses with his other 3 attacks"...and as soon as the PC's all rush in for the kill he says "next round. Ooohhh...he it's you all four times for a total of 98 points of damage!". I've seen first hand what a bad DM can do to a begining players psyche...it ain't pretty.
If the guy is a long time player...shrug...you've been a LOT more patient with him that I would have been. :evil grin:
A cleric can abandon his chosen and take up the faith of another god. In doing so, the cleric follows the Ex-Clerics rule from the Players Handbook v.3.5, losing all class features of the abandoned god. To progress as a cleric of another faith, the character must go on a quest for his new church then receive an atonement spell from a cleric of his new faith (contact your triad for details). Once these two conditions are met, the character becomes a cleric of the new god. He chooses two domains from the new god’s repertoire and resumes all class abilities lost from leaving the old faith.
I really can't express to you all who have commented on my little problem(s) just how valuable you have been to me. I forsee this week as being very turbulent as the PC gets "The Message." I owe Theala an apology; I meant that after the PC was warned by his deity, he cowered from combat, not his deity. Sorry about not clearly relaying that detail, my bad Oddly enough, we brought in another player who is playing a monk and after the game, even he asked, "Wow, um that guy is a cleric in service of Pelor right? Does he always shy away from combat like that?"
As for being a long time player...I'm not real sure. I think in the past he has had some DM's that have let him do almost anything. Whenever he DM's a game, he has always commented that his players start at 5th-10th level b/c that's where the real fun begins. That really should have brought up a red flag to my attention. In his other games, as a player, he has told us all some pretty amazing things that his characters did (destroying demons single handedly, stopping a Kobold and Goblin invasion, creating storms that would flood kingdoms wholesale, etc.).
I really can't express to you all who have commented on my little problem(s) just how valuable you have been to me. I forsee this week as being very turbulent as the PC gets "The Message." I owe Theala an apology; I meant that after the PC was warned by his deity, he cowered from combat, not his deity. Sorry about not clearly relaying that detail, my bad Oddly enough, we brought in another player who is playing a monk and after the game, even he asked, "Wow, um that guy is a cleric in service of Pelor right? Does he always shy away from combat like that?"
No big Obviously everyone in your group sees the problem but the player.
Quote:
As for being a long time player...I'm not real sure. I think in the past he has had some DM's that have let him do almost anything. Whenever he DM's a game, he has always commented that his players start at 5th-10th level b/c that's where the real fun begins. That really should have brought up a red flag to my attention. In his other games, as a player, he has told us all some pretty amazing things that his characters did (destroying demons single handedly, stopping a Kobold and Goblin invasion, creating storms that would flood kingdoms wholesale, etc.).
Well, he's right that 5-9th levels are the most fun, at least that was always my experience. You have just enough power and skill to take on some real challenges, but not so much that you just plow through the adventure--you still have to use your brains and do some clever thinking. When I was still GMing AD&D I usually started my campaigns off at 3rd level because I didn't want the players to die in the first encounter (I still recall my earliest sessions when my brother and I rolled up six characters each in a single night because they kept getting killed. We learned).
However, it sounds like your problem player has been in a Monty Haul campaign. He may have started gaming with a GM who never got past that stage of running, and hasn't clued into the difference between roll playing and role playing. Such things can be cured, with patience, if you and your group are willing to put out the effort. But your problem player will probably not understand at first, he may think you are "picking on him". Assure him you are not, but that his behavior must change if he is to meld well with the rest of your group. Remind him there is no I in Team, then let him know that there will be times in the course of your campaign where he will have his chance to be the star of the show--just like everyone else.
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I was hoping to have him switch to Kord or a dark deity, because he basis his character's value off of the magic items he carries. For example, he always comments that he doesn't do as much damage as the fighter does, or that if he had the right magic items, he could do x,y,z, he's not strong enough, etc. His time is monopolized with how to get the best results from his magic items. He will reconsider helping a fellow PC if his own character may provoke an AoO from an npc 
It looks like he might be shaping up for the short time with his goodies, but he may pull the "Well, if I'm to go smite greater evil, I need greater weapons" arguement. Anyway, I truly appreciate everyone's assistance in this matter. It really is quite comforting to know that there is such a broad base of wisdom and experinece I can rely on for help! Once again, thank you.
