Gents-
Do these items get traded in the Flanaess?...Where do they come from if they do?...My guess would be that Coffee hails from the Baklunish West and that Cocoa and Vanilla come from Hepmonaland and/or the Amedio Jungle...These assumptions are, of course, based on RW origins of these tasty delights (i.e. Baklunish West=the Arabic World and the southern Jungles=Pre-Colombian Latin America)...Given those assumptions, can we assume that following the Greyhawk Wars, they are in short supply, based on the idea that trade with the West took a hit with the Ketite invasion of Bissel and the subjugation of the Southern Jungles by the SB and the subsequent Blockade of Flanaess ports against the threat (and trade) of those who serve the Scarlet Sign?...What're your thoughts?...
Kwint
It depends on how "real world" you want things. After all, you could say these items are there because you want them to be. However, if you truly want some RW basis, I would go for a climate based approach; that is, if a climate that supports the product exists, then the product exists. As a result, coffee is grown in volcanic soils, in tropical and subtropical climates, in high altitude. Likewise, although I'm less familiar with vanilla and cocoa, these products need tropical or subtropical climates to grow properly. If you want to include them, culturally, then magic is probably at work to grow these products outside of their native habitats. IMC, coffee exists in the hills and mountains of Sterich, the Yeomanry, southern Keoland and the Principality of Ulek. Vanilla and cocoa are known in the Amedio Jungle, but gathering it is difficult, and thus these two products are rare and expensive.
IMC, emphatically "yes." And I agree with your points or origin. Coffee from the Baklunish. Cocoa and vanilla from Hepmonaland. IMC.
I would add tobacco from the Hold of the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles, the SB and northern Hepmonaland.
Tea I have coming from the Celestial Imperium, Zindia and "Nippon."
This may sound odd but I've always wanted to explore chocolates, tobacco, coffee and tea in GH. One of my favorite GH campaigns once revolved around wines and viniculture. Okay, I run odd campaigns. _________________ GVD
As a result, coffee is grown in volcanic soils, in tropical and subtropical climates, in high altitude.
Although my personal knowledge concerning coffee is fairly narrow (stumbling to the coffee maker, adding the ground coffee from a can, then water to the resevoir, turning on the damned machine and waiting, waiting, waiting...), wikipaedia indicates that coffee originated in Yemen and Ethiopia, two nations/regions that are not particulary volcanic in nature nor particlarly high in altitude (AFAIK)...Given the Drawmidj's (sp?) warm currents and resulting warm clime for its southern coast, I thought it would be an appropriate place for coffee to come from...I suppose it could of been taken to Sterich (as coffee was taken to South America), but something should be exotic in the Flanaess (which holds for Cocoa and Vanilla as well IMO)...Still I would not want to stimy any debate, just giving my rationalization for my thoughts...
As an aside, are there any RW trade products folks see coming from outside the Flanaess?...Expressly from the Baklunish West or the Southern Jungles?...Further afield?...
As a result, coffee is grown in volcanic soils, in tropical and subtropical climates, in high altitude.
Yemen and Ethiopia, two nations/regions that are not particulary volcanic in nature nor particlarly high in altitude (AFAIK)...
Okay, I appear to be lacking in knowledge concerning these two nations...Both have elevations over 10000 feet and were volcanicly active in the past...Nonetheless, the Baklunish West has mountains (the Yatils and the Ullsprues) on the map (and these may have been volcanically active in the far past) and farther west, who knows as Zeif stretches an unknown distance to the west (where there are mountains which may have been vocanically active in the past)...
I would add tobacco from the Hold of the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles, the SB and northern Hepmonaland.
We have a mention of Tobacco being grown around town of Felten as luxury product in our regional gazetteer (http://www.thesplinteredsun.info/naerie/download.html).
Since Tobacco does not require too specific enviroment to grow, I decided that southern Ahlissa would be good enough for it. It does not say how long it has been grown there but idea was that some plants/seeds were originally presented as gifts to rulers of Idee by the 'ambassadors' of the Scarlet Brotherhood or brought along by occupying forces and even though SB is gone, tobacco is not.
Perhaps it's their hidden weapon to cause the population to get themselves killed by lung cancer
More seriously, do you think of any exotic plants that might possibly thrive in Southern Ahlissa? Would make sense that something else might have come along with SB.
While we're on such a subject, I wonder about other trade goods, such as cinnamon, nutmeg, pepper, cumin and the like. Mundane trade goods like wheat are widespread, obviously, but things like corn, tomatos and the potato weren't introduced to Europe until after Columbus. Hmm, maybe I'll do a write up on various trade goods and their origins (according to canon, for all you purists )...
While we're on such a subject, I wonder about other trade goods, such as cinnamon, nutmeg, pepper, cumin and the like. Mundane trade goods like wheat are widespread, obviously, but things like corn, tomatos and the potato weren't introduced to Europe until after Columbus. Hmm, maybe I'll do a write up on various trade goods and their origins (according to canon, for all you purists )...
Ha - funny you should say that. I've been pondering these exact thoughts since reading the excellent "Spice - The History of a Temptation" by Jack Turner, which goes into the history of the trade and the uses various spices were put to in Europe and elsewhere. Wikipedia also has a good entry on spices and the spice trade.
The main spices traded in the ancient, medival world and the age of discovery were: Pepper, cinnamon, nutmeg/mace and cloves.
Pepper mainly came from the Malabar Coast of India - the present day states of Kerala and Karnataka (also now major producers of tea and sandelwood and oil). Pepper became one of the most common of the classic medieval spices.
Nutmeg, mace and cloves were originally only found on a few volcanic atolls in the Molocca Islands (Nutmeg and mace from the Bandas and cloves from Ternate and Tidor) - the legendary spice islands, over which much blood was spilt and for which, Magellan made his voyage around the world (to prove that they were in the half of the world granted to the Spanish by the Treaty of Tordesillas).
Cinnamon trees are native to Sri Lanka and southern India, but by the age of discovery were widespread in SE Asia. Cinnamon was great prized in the ancient world as a funerary spice - rather than as a condiment. Interstingly, the phoenix was supposed to have been burnt on a pyre of cinnamon and the spice was linked to its resurrection from the flames.
So - spices on the Oerth. Well - the obvious place for them would be somewhere tropical, matching the climates of southern India, Sri Lanka and the Indonesian Archipeligo. Looking at my map of the Oerth, the place that jumps out at me is, curiously Zahind ("Zinida"), Kalaraj ("Nippon" and its dominions). It's also possible that the southern coasts of the Celestial Empire might be good spice growing regions. Spices in the Amedio or Hepmonaland are also possible - especially if you consider that the terms spice was much more broadly applied in medieval times (oranges and suger were considered spices for example).
In terms of a spice trade - there's two obvious routes:
The Bakluni caravan routes across the Paynims, Komal and the mountains and into central Oerik and the enormous markets of the Celestial Empire. This would be one of the main sources of spices and exotics from western Oerik into the Flanaess - via the Great Western Road - and certainly a contributary factor to the weatlh of the Moloquadd Consortium, and the cities of Thornward, Dyvers, Greyhawk, Leukish and Radigast City.
The Pearl Sea route. This would be a fairly tenuous route - being quite dangerous and not widely known to the states of the Flanaess. This might largely be due to the Scarelt Brotherhood's influence in the southern seas. It's possible that one of the sweeteners to the SB's deal with Frolmar Ingerskatti was the granting of a monopoly to the Lords of the Isles over the southern spice trade. So when LoI ships call at Gryrax and the ports of Nyrond, they could be offloading cargos of spices (and suddenly Lynwerd's decision to maintain trade with the LoI doesn't seem so strange - given Nyrond's economic state).
Of course the Pearl Sea route is the one that the naval powers of the Flanaess (esp. Keoland, Ahlissa, the Solnor Compact, Nyrond and the Iron League) will get very excitied about once the SB's grip on the southern gates is broken. What better cause for rivalry and war, but access to the spice isles of Kalaraj and beyond?
On Coffee - there's a port in Exbir called Kofeh - if that's not a hint as to whether the Bakluni have coffee or not, I don't know what is. :)
Tea - I agree - native to the Celestial Empire - the Celestials can trade silk, tea and other exotics for Kalarajan or Zahindi spices. I reckon that if the Bakluni have silks, they got the tech from the west - not unlike the real world.
Of course - as this is a magical world - there may be other spices - ones with magical properties - extending life or enhancing sorcerous powers - and you can bet those are going to be exceptionally rare, expensive and well guarded.
Oh just a random thought that comes to me about cocoa leaves. They're still used to fight off the effect of altitude sickness in the Andes - so perhaps if there's hidden Olman enclaves in the Hellfurnaces, they use the same thing?
The Pearl Sea route. This would be a fairly tenuous route - being quite dangerous and not widely known to the states of the Flanaess. This might largely be due to the Scarelt Brotherhood's influence in the southern seas.
This thought underlay my initial thoughts on piracy in the Flanaess, the first article of which has posted. There is a world of adventure the SB is stoppering to a significant degree and replacing with not much to compare. Its time to roll back the SB even further and open up the southern passage through the Olman Islands! _________________ GVD
I preface this with a 'Hiya all' as I'm new as a poster at least here.
Anywho when you talk about even the most basic and common of spices it always leads through the whole list. Trade and trade goods have always been something I've enjoyed and would love to see something inclusive written up about them (As in where they are Greyhawk wise)
The most common of spices (If it can even be called a spice) is Salt. In the RW Roman soldiers were paid partially with one pound of salt a month (It's where the saying 'being worth your salt' comes from). Those that owned salt mines and such even in a magical world would be powerful because without salt preservation of foods especially meat becomes difficult unless everyone likes their meats smoked. The Saltmarsh series of modules gave me the idea to set a salt mine near by and thus had several adventures involving it and the powerful family that owned it.
One of the Rarest and most expensive of spices, Saffron in the RW comes from Greece and is used in foods and in perfumes (Golden and Red respectively). The control of such a spice trade in Greyhawk could spawn wars.
Beyond spices you get into other trade goods IE Silk, Rare and Exotic Woods, Precious and semi precious stones and even the feathers of vibrant birds... It opens up a large window of opprotunity for new types of adventures and knowing where these rare and wonderous goods come from on Greyhawk would go a long way in developing those adventures.
It's late (nearly 4 am) so if I've rambled and made no sense do forgive the intrusion.
I found this passage of tSB to be one of the most intriguing:
“That summer [after the War], the appearance of a Rel Astran caravel in the central Flanaess surprised the Brotherhood. The ship had avoided the Brotherhood blockade of the Tilva Strait by circling the small continent of Hepmonaland. They quickly traded the goods they brought from hitherto unknown Hepmonaland nations and headed back the way they came.”
I have no idea what all has been mentioned in canon, but here's what I do:
The SB introduced coffee to the Oeridian lands about ten years back, and it's been spreading to the rest of the world like wildfire (see the historical introduction to Europe after the attempted Muslim invasion of Vienna). They're using it as an entry point to the diplomats and economies of the world, and as a way to scare up hard currency. There is a potential future plot point regarding the cutting off of the coffee supply to the rest of the world, and the smuggling of seeds and expertise from the Tilvanot.
Other spices come from exotic locales. Much of the Baklunish lands produce GH analogues of saffron, cinnamon, etc, while Elven and Halfling lands produce more "traditional" spices.
If we're taking Cauldron's positioning on the Dungeon Flanaess map as Canonical, then according to the Shackled City hardcover, plantations on the outskirts of the Amedio Jungle near Cauldron produce coffee.
I believe a couple of people mentioned doing a write-up/article on Spices in the Flanaess: Imports and Exports...Has anyone followed up on this?...
Kwint
What about some uniquely GH spices, given the various flora and fauna mentioned within canon, their must be some strictly GH rather then a simple real world transfer.
Well, this may be an odd thought, but there has been onrunning discussion of what the next event should be in GH, maybe it is the growth of a spice trade and the wars that surround it. The discovery of spices in various parts of the world might result in interesting things considering what it did to our history.
It's less about the discovery of spices as the discovery of alternate routes to them.
Europe knew of eastern spices since ancient times - coming east on trade from the Mollucas, through India, Persia, Egypt and the Phonecians. The Romans imported vast amounts of spices - with the result that you can go to museums in Southern India and be confronted with exhibits of locally unearthed Roman coins caches. The trade went into a bit of a slump during the Dark Ages (in the west anyway - Byzantium were still an important market and entrepot throughout the Dark and early Middle Ages), picking up again as western Europe recovered and demand for luxuries increased. The trade continued even through the rise of Islam in the Middle East and Central Asia. It was only after the Crusades as frictions between the Muslim states and Christendom turned to hostility and open war that the trade began to be resticted or at least controlled by rising and hostile powers like the Ottomans - who finally snuffed out Byzantium (and the favourable trading rights enjoyed by Venice and Genoa) in 1453. It's not coincidental that at the same time, Portugal and Spain began looking for alternate routes around the Muslim world to the Spice Islands of the east (thereby cutting out the Islamic and Italian middle men and their outrageous mark-up).
So in short - it was the demand for (which implies knowledge of) spices that encouraged Europeans to go a-exploring.
In terms of the Flanaess, we have to assume that spices are already well known, if exteremly scarce (and therefore costly) luxury items. The obvious sources for these are
1: The West
2: Hepmonaland.
Given the fact that none of the main Flanassi powers (aside from the local Scarlet Brotherhood) has seen fit to settle or conquer much of Hepmonaland, we have to assume that they see little economic gain from doing so - so the spices from there cannot be either (a) widely known of or (b) worth exploiting. They might be dangerous to harvest - but that wouldn't stop people trying. After all - sailing around the Cape of Good Hope to India and the Moloccas wasn't exactly dropping down to the spicerack at the local supermarket.
So we can assume then that most of the really valuable spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, pepper, mace, cloves and some Flanaess spp. ones) come from the West or South West - via the Baklunish lands, the Molloqod Consortium and the Great Western Road. The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Lords of the Isles might have some sea routes to Kallaraj, but the hints in the SB sourcebook suggest that the Brotherhood might already be at war with one or other western power (no doubt due to their racist attitudes to other races) - so this is likely to be limited.
So - what do you need to trigger the nations of the Flanaess to go a-exploring. Quite simple - a crimp in the supply of spice, which would in turn lead to a sharp hike in the price of spices. That'd make it economically prudent for realms like Ahlissa, Keoland and Nyrond to start spending money on voyages of exploration and expeditions to control direct spice routes to the west that bypass the Bakluni lands.
What might cause this? A big war in the Bakluni lands - caused for example by the rise of the Madhi, another horde rolling out of the west, by the Keoish getting their empire on and trying to conquer Ket again or Iggwilv rising in Perrenland again and rolling south into Ket (or a combination of said (like the Keoish and Velunese butting up against the forces of the Mahdi).
Other factors would be good old fashioned greed on the behalf of the Royal Guild of Merchants of Aerdy. Ahlissa is at the end of the Flanaessi Spice Route. It also has a vast market for luxuries in its filthy rich merchant princes. It must really gall them to have to line the pockets of every spice trader from Zeir-i-Zeif or Kester to Rel Mord or Greyhawk City to get their spices (this, by the way, explains in part the significant presence of the Royal Guild in Greyhawk - the farther west they buy the spices, the cheaper they are). If another shorter, cheaper route were to open up - they'd be all over it like an amourous cephalopod.
How fortunate then that Ahlissa's naval power is burgeoning at the moment (in response, in part, to the naval threat of the Scarlet Brotherhood). How fortunate also that the Solnor Compact have some of the most advanced naval tech going (not to mention an even more pressing economic need to find alternate routes to the west than the Ahlissans - since the blockade of the Tilva Strait and the fall of the Bone March means that almost all trade between the cities on the Solnor Main to the west has to go through Ahlissa at some point - and that can't please Drax one little bit, since it means an economic blockade by Ahlissa would have a devestating effect on the Free Cities). Why else do you think the expeditions around the tip of Hepmonaland (Rel Astra) and across the Solnor (Sea Barons) got financed?
So in short - any disruption in the spice route from the west will give the critical amount of incentive to tip the nations of the eastern Flanaess (some of whom already have significant incentives) into dispatching exploration fleets towards the west (and/or across the Solnor).
The incentive to explore would be strongest in the east - so I see Ahlissa and the Solnor Compact leading the charge. This would of course require them to shatter the stranglehold of the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Lords of the Isles over the southern seas first.
If we assume that cloves etc are likely to grow in very similar climates to the Earth, then there are two likely spice captials: (a) the Isles of "Nippon"/Kalaraj plus the nearby coasts of Zahind and the Kalaraj Dominions and (b) the tropical coasts of the Celestial Empire of Sufhang. It's likely that there's an established network of caravan/sea routes between Sufhang and Zahind/Kalaraj, so Ahlissan ships arriving in Kalaraj or Zahind could tap into these, picking up navigators and maps to carry them around the cape to Sufhang. That'd give them a direct route for spices. The Ahlissans would also be aided by the emnity of the Zahindi and Kalarajans towards the Scarlet Brotherhood, who if we take the hints from the SB sourcebook have already clashed with one of the western seapowers. The enemy of my enemy is my trading partner.
Once Ahlissa gets the spice route, Keoland will be quick to follow (by now they might be at war with the Bakuni and so will want to hamstring the westerners' advantages in trade and secure a cheap source of spices of their own), as will Nyrond via their southern ports (cue frictions with Ahlissa).
Interestingly, a sea route to the west will spell hard times if not economic ruin for the Free Cities along the Great Western Road, since they'll lose their place as middlemen (watch those prices tumble as the first Ahlissan caravel unloads its cargo of cloves and cinnamon directly onto the docks at Greyhawk). You can see Dyvers being reabsorbed by Furyondy at this point as it suffers an economic crash, unreast and rebellion against the Gentry and the Magister (possibly fomented by Furyondian factions like the Knights of the Hart). Veluna will have already have taken a big hit from the war in the west and that'll hurt Furyondy too (decreased tariffs from passing and entrepot trade). Greyhawk City will struggle to maintain its vassal cities and even its own independence. The Urnsts also will suffer, but they at least have plenty of natural resources (food for the Country; metals for the Duchy - though they'd be eager to overrun the mines currently in the hands of Greyhawk). In the Sheldomar, it'll shift the focus of the economy even more towards Gradsul and the seaports (cue a new dynasty of Rholan kings) than it already probably is, with the mines of the vassal states being used to supply the percious metals to buy the spices (from Imperial Rome to 18th centrury England, there was always a concern that too much precious metal was being shipped east to pay for what was a frivolous and fleeting luxury - the Flanaess is likely to be the same).
Of course, once there are several Flanaessi powers vying for trading routes to the west, conflict is pretty much inevitable. And conflict is the food of drama and adventures...
All in all, a burgeoning age of exploration is one of the best ways to spice up the Flanaess (pun entirely intended).
Woesinger: "Once Ahlissa gets the spice route, Keoland will be quick to follow (by now they might be at war with the Bakuni and so will want to hamstring the westerners' advantages in trade and secure a cheap source of spices of their own), as will Nyrond via their southern ports (cue frictions with Ahlissa). "
Cue the rise of Xamaclan and the priesthood of Hurakan.
Sure - if the Olman can supply spices to the Flanaessi - then they can be of use as allies. This is where the legacy of Olman slaves being left behind in the Hold and Idee comes in handy for both the Ahlissans and the Keoish - as interpreters and guides...
That said - the Olman in the Hold are more likely to be from the Amedio (whereas those in Idee/Naerie are likely to be Hepmonalanders) - and so will have give an edge to the Keoish...
Well, there is the issue of the spices in the Amedio, but I was thinking about Xamaclan as a port city on the way to the cities of the southwest where the spices would be and the power of the priesthood of Hurakan to make the Vohoun Ocean less dangerous.
Wow I dont think I have ever engendered such a response with a post. Woesinger, you are correct it was the discovery of new routes, or at least the desire to discover new routes to china and india that sparked the exploration. Even in the darkes days of the middle ages there are references to far off India though they thought that the end of the earth. But it was what the europeans found that sparked the wars and competition. When they disovered new spices and gold, they tore the globe apart, but they did so through proxies, in far off lands. Of course they warred at home, but not with the same vigor.
I think this would make much more sense for the Flaness to be light on spices. Since there is next to nothing known about the rest of the world, I would think their knowledge of spice is limited. I dont really see any Oerthian Parallels to Byzantium... Bissell and Gran March have almost no relations with the West. Ket might be a parallel, but I have never seen them in that light. Then Ekbir and Zeif are full blown Baklunish.
Think though, a ship full of spices, the likes of which the Flaness has never seen could spark an explosion in exploration. The Flaness may have a few spices, but I wouldn't think many. I have never really read much to give the flavor of that in canon. Once they start finding these far off places, they fight over them.
Well, that is a thought as to how it should go. But regardless it is a unique and interesting slant on how GH should go.
The exploration idea has merit, I just hope that people don't try to recreate the RW example. As stated the RW exploration went through phases and took a few centuries.
Given the hostile tropical nature of Amedio and Hepmonaland, I don't see large scale expeditions. To the west unlike RW North America several nations can hold their own against the flanaess so I don't see the land rush think rather early china contact where the west was at a serious trade disadvantage and viewed as uncivilized brutes.
Also the west particularly the Celestial Empire seems well ordered and stable given their lucrative and calm trade relations with the Baklunish perhaps the eastern naval powers will find the west less eager then they hope especially given their lack of trade goods and the "bad impression" the SB made in the western seas.
Let us not forget the Molloqod Consortium won't be sitting on their hands but working all the time to form binding exclusive trading deals and further spread mistrust to further poison relations with their far east potential trade rivals.
I am unfamiliar with this ocean...Is it a local name for the DA Oerth Map's Ocean of Storms?...
Kwint
I may have spelled it wrong, and it is not clear to me exactly where the boundaries are, but it is also called the Pearl Sea and is south of the Olman islands.
Well, it is not coffee, cocoa or vanilla, but just looking to see what I could find about spices in GH on the net, I came up with this:
Mysterious Places, Haven of the Sun, By Creighton Broadhurst, Paul Looby, Stuart Kerrigan, at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lgmp/20041207a, provides: “Early in their [Aerdi] explorations, the Atirrs established an outpost on the eastern coast of Hepmonaland. Called Solhabenn (Old Oeridian: Haven of the Sun), the port provided supplies, running repairs and cargos of exotic spices and fruits for vessels making the run between Aerdy and the south.”
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer Addendum: The Aerdy East, Part 2, by CruelSummerLord, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455, provides: “Openly materialistic and selfish, the Lordship [of the Isles] took pride in its ability to make coin off everything from spices to slaves ….”
Greyhawk Gazetteer Addendum: The Nyr Dyv, Part II, by CruelSummerLord, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=436, provides: “Dyvers and Greyhawk are engaged in endless conflicts, both economic and political, to control the rich east-west trade in everything from slaves to spices.”
Gods of the Suel 10: Bralm Revisited, by chatdemon, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=240, provides: “… grass beetles (a large meaty insect …people of Suel descent like to round up and eat fried in oil with a dash of paprika or cinnamon when those expensive spices are available….”
Gord's Greyhawk: Northwest Reaches, The Bakluni Nations, The Sea ..., at http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/bakluni.html#lakekarnoosh, provides: “Karnoosh, This city is a trading center on Lake Karnoosh, (P6-142) Its market is frequented by all of the nomadic tribes west of the Crystalmist chain and south of Ket …There is trade in slaves, spices, animals, ivory, and all other goods. …”
The Beers of Greyhawk, by Keldreth (aka James A. S. Muldowney III), at http://freespace.virgin.net/scott.rennie/beers.htm, provides: “Milagra's Spiced Mead … The bark of bronzewood trees from the Vesve and a rare root from the Barrier Peaks are its main spices, nutmeg, allspice and cinnamon also have their role in the flavor. … Furyondian Spiced Ale … balanced ale with a host of subtle spices including one reportedly from Aquaria which does not have a taste but causes a tingling on your tongue. … Dorakkan Blackened Beer … spices … Norian Firewater … peppercorns (yes peppercorns)… Chispa's Spring Wheat Beer …nutmeg and allspice
It's unlikely that cacao would be found natively in the Amedio, when it was not found in southeast asia, where the plantlife is more similar to what's in the Amedio. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
From Wolfsires post and some of the other comments, maybe I was wrong. It looks as if the Flaness is a spicy place, though that was never in my mental picture.
So, let me ask this... what if it is not the nations of the Flaness that go on a spice rage, but the other nations of Oerth? They come to Oldred and force acceptance of a trade colony?
1: The amount of spices in the Flanaess.
I can't recall off the top of my head if there's much reference to spices in GH Canon (and I'm not overly inclined to find out). The word itself is problematic since in the middle ages spices covered everything from cinnamon to sugar to oranges (basically anything rare and exotic could be and often was called a spice).
For the sake of argument, I'd like to think that spices are available - though are very rare (and thus expensive and the province of nobles and wealthy priests and mages - spices were used for much more than eating in the real world - this is likely to be doubly true in a world with divine and arcane magic).
A lack of widespread awareness of where the spices actually come from is not inconsistant with them being present. If we assume that the Bakluni have extensive contacts in the west (or are at least the link between the western trade routes and the trade routes in the Flanaess), then as far as most Flanaessi who concern themselves with the spice trade know, spices come out of the west, borne by the followers of Molloqod. Being practical fellas, they probably don't bother themselves much more (though the more thoughtful might wonder if there was a way to cut out the middle man).
As for the Flanassi Byzantium - well, functionally (if not culturally) it's Zeir-i-Zeif (though I suppose you could also say it's a functional Basra - where sea routes from India interesected with land routes up the Tigris/Euphrates valley towards Damascus or Antioch and onto Constantinople). That's where spice caravans and ships from the Bakhoury States would intersect the with the far end of the Great Western Road. Along with Ekbir, Zeir-i-Zeif would be a major clearing house for western exotics coming east.
Another candidate for the Flanaessi Byzantium is Thornward (a major road nexus and the Gateway to the Flanaess as far as the Bakluni are concerned). Given the value of the trade coming through here (everything coming from the west and going along the Great Western road towards Dyvers, the Nyr Dyv and the Eastern Flanaess AND everything going south into the Sheldomar), you can see why the Knights of the Watch were so upset at losing Bissel and why the Velunese and Gran Marchers wanted a slice of the action when the Ketites withdrew. Thornward and Bissel in general should be very wealthy indeed. But like any state that's wealthier than its strong (eg Sierra Leone or Zaire), that's going to bring its own woes - and Bissel's had a few it its history (this might also explain why Furyondy/Veluna was happy enough to take Bissel from the Keoish during the Short War - thus depriving the Court of the Lion the lucrative Bisselite spice tarriffs, some of which no doubt found its way into the Furyondi treasury through tibute payments).
2: The tenor of Flanaessi exploration
I agree it'd be overly simple (and thus less interesting) for Ahlissa and Keoland to go boldly forth and within 50 years have vast empires in Zahind. That didn't even happen in the real world. The European powers didn't get a real territorial foothold in India and the East Indies until the 1700s and afterwards (while the first Portugese ships arrived in India in the 1400s). While the Portugese had an advantage in naval tech and weaponry and quickly established themselves as a strong naval power in the Arabian Sea (shouldering aside the Arab traders who'd dominated there previously and jostling with the Mughals)- they made very little inroads inland (beyond their small coastal outposts in places like Goa, Cochin, Daman and Diu). Even the Dutch, the French and the English took a long while to amass any sort of territory - and then only when the Mughal Empire was collapsing. They fared similarly poorly in Japan and China, where the organised states there kept the Europeans marginalised to small coastal trading colonies.
So given that there seems to be organised states in Zahind, "Nippon" and Sufhang, it's unlikely that the Flanaessi will fare any differently. The only difference in the favour of would-be Ahlissan or Keoish imperialists is tthat Zahind is a hell of a lot closer to home than India was from Europe. Set against that though, we have sea monsters and other fantastical hazards that have apparently limited large scale, sustained exploration of the southern seas thus far.
3: Reverse colonisation
I don't see the western powers coming to the Flanaess to set buy spices. The climate of the Flanaess isn't right for mundane spices like pepper, cinnamon, cloves, mace, nutmeg etc (which grow in the tropics of SE Asia in the RW). The notable lack of Flanaessi interest in exploring and settling Hepmonaland and the Amedio says to me that if there are spices of economic value there, they haven't been discovered yet. If there's a non mundane spice (something Oerthly rather than Earthly) that's worth a Sufhangi's while in sailing to Oldred to get, then why hasn't it been mentioned in canon yet?
Now - that's not to say that there aren't other incentives for a western fleet to come east and start throwing its weight around. If Flanaessi powers start meddling with the west, they might elicit a very hostile reaction (like a fleet of Kalarajan junks laden with warriors of the Black King weighing anchor in the roadstead of Gradsul or Irongate or Naerie).
Equally, the Flanaess might have some resources that other parts of Oerik don't have (Dweomerite and ready supplies of Oerthblood for example). There's got to be a reason why Iuz - who could, as a demigod, presumably have set up his empire anywhere on the Oerth - picked the northern Flanaess (the Soul Husks are one; the deposits of Dweomerite mentioned in Iuz the Evil are likely to be another). If the western powers discovered this, then it's not unreasonable to imagine they might want to trade for it, establishing commercial colonies and trying to interfere with the local politics to their own advantage (imagine a late medieval Europe where the Chinese or the Mughals have trading colonies in Venice, Genoa, London, Lisbon, Antwerp and Amsterdam and work to play the states of Europe against each other to their advantage, fanning the fires of the Reformation and interstate and dynastic rivalries...).
And let's not forget about the east too. We know the Sea Barons have made contact with the states on the Far Western shores of Oerik. If we assume that the Chainmail states are canon, then this is likely to have included Thalos. Think of the shock Columbus would have had if he'd have stepped ashore in the new world and found long lost Europeans worshiping the Celtic church of St Brendan or some heretical sect of Christianity like Nestorianism or Arianism. That's what the Sea Barons might have felt when they fetched up in Oeridian Thalos - with its temples to Stratis and Stern Alia.
How would ties between the states of the Solnor Main and Thalos influence the wars in the Far West of Oerik? Equally, how would trade with Thalos effect the balance of power in Aerdy? Suddenly Rel Astra and the North Kingdom have someone to trade with other than Ahlissa. Then there's the Olve. We know that the Olve of the Lendores are apt to sail west over the sea. So they likely have contacts with the Olve of the Far West. If the Aerdi Oerids start aiding their Thalosi kin in the wars - might the Lendorians return the favour on the other side of the Solnor?
As I've said before, opening the Flanaess up to the rest of Oerik will be the biggest shake up since the Greyhawk Wars. However, unlike the wars, it'll be far longer and more far reaching (and won't require you to have to destroy half the Flanaess to generate interesting plots and drama).
Westward ho!
P.
Last edited by Woesinger on Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:32 am; edited 1 time in total
I like it... I'll get product development over at WOTC on the phone right now.
If only it were so. The thought is absurd really I mean, how could we expect such a thing to outsell a hard bound copy of "Races of the Dragon," detailing Kobolds!?!?!
Here is my thought: To go West, go South, then East.
For opening up the Flanaess, and cheep importation, I think the way to go is to first develop the South, at least as a setting. It may be a dead end, but that IS the canon established for colonization. Colonization in the West will not happen because the Bakluni are too powerful and the Solnor is too big.
In The Rhola and the Toli: the Battle for Jeklea Bay, Samwise did a nice job addressing how conflict advanced naval technology. With tSB holding the South, and they, IMO, having passed the height of their might, there is a new opportunity for protracted conflict over the southern colonies. That too could lead to advances that could make crossing the Solnor practical.
Well the Sea Barons already have the tech to make crossing the Solnor practical and have proven it works (see the references to Walfrenden in Ivid the Undying and the fleet of Sea Princes ships that scooted across the Solnor and back in the late 580's). Obviously every sea power in the Flanaess will be dead keen to steal these secrets (and the maps the Barons now have). Cue lots of espionage and intrigue on the Solnor Main (Yaaaar!).
I agree though - one of the big events in the southern sea that's a prereq. to further exploration is a big naval war between Ahlissa and Keoland (plus smaller power slike Ulek, Onnwal and Irongate) on one hand (an Azure League?) and the Brotherhood, the Pomarji pirates and the Lords of the Isles on the other (with Drawmij acting as umpire and all round leveller). The Brotherhood's stranglehold on the Southern Gates of the Azure and the Tilva Straits needs to be decisively broken. Also possible is a big fleet coming out of the south west and laying waste to the Brotherhood's navy (though I prefer the Azure League idea).
I saw a reference to the Sea Barons having made the crossing, but nothing specific. Thanks for the references. I cannot wait to dig them up.
But just for the sake of arguments, crossing the ocean does not mean they have the technology to make it viable. Before the RW Age of Exploration, Europeans crossed the Atlantic. We know the Vikings did. Many have suggested other classical and pre-classical cultures did. The Clovis-Solutrean connection indicates that even the cavemen did.
At least two people besides myself voted for “All Things Nautical” on my forum poll “I would like to see a POSTFEST on ...” Maybe the question could be re-worded to inspire.
“… spices … ferried around the kingdom in great quantities.”
“The surrender of the Lords of the Isles to the Scarlet Brotherhood, cutting off imports of spices, silks and the like, make luxuries hard to come by.”
“Eastfair, The Granite City … . Area #19 is home to an enclave of merchants who specialize in exotic goods: … spices, peppers, rare herbs …. Their shops are poorly stocked, and they often gather at The Spice of Life, a noisy tavern run by a Bisselite-Ketite exile.”
“… the [Sea] Barons raid … Hepmonaland to loot the spices…”
“Fairisle has small wooded pockets which contain spice bushes and plants, and herbs much in demand by alchemists and herbalists.”
On naval technology:
… the wizard … Livensten's passion, however, is inventions and tinkerings. The new astrolabe he has just invented—and his almanacs showing how to compute latitude and distances from the position of sun and moons—is receiving considerable approval from the galleon captains. These aids have enabled the Sea Barons to become true ocean-goers should they wish, in contrast to their traditional role as coastal defenders and patrollers.
This is a mixed blessing for Basmajian, since it encourages his younger captains to do precisely what he doesn't want them to do, namely to set off on great voyages of discovery far east across the Solnor.
…
… Walfrenden, the master shipwright of the island—and the best in all Aerdi, it should be said. … His latest design is a heavy caravel … Starflier, the first of these vessels, lies in harbor awaiting an inspired captain and devoted crew ready to sail forever across the eastern horizons, the triangular sail designs allowing far more freedom for the vessel to sail against prevailing winds than the larger square-rigged galleons.
…
[Baron] Pamdarn is relatively impoverished, since he has been saving funds to purchase the caravel Starflier and has also bought instruments of Livensten's devising.
But my favorite bit was:
“Rock iguanas are as common here [in the isles of the Sea Barons] as are rats in Rauxes, and unlike those vermin, their tails make excellent eating, marinated and roasted.”- man that sounds good.
The old WOG player's guide had a list of waht resource came from where, although it didn't define "which" spices...
Most of the spices would come from anywhere in the tropics (Amedio, Hepmonoland); by 591, The Scarlet Brotherhood would control a lot of it.
I always assumed that rum came from Duxchan (I think I saw a reference to it somewhere), so they'd have to have sugar as well. Sugar would probably be grown throughout the tropics; again, in 591, the SB would have most of it.
Tobacco (pipeweed) is grown anwhere you find halflings or gnomes, particulalry south of the 39th parallel.
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